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My sister is "not a feminist."

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

So now I am wondering if the suffragettes (most of whom did not support abortion) have any business being called feminists ....

And if not, then I guess we don't have to thank "feminists" for the right to vote ....

 

Is this a serious question or just a  funny line ? 'Cos I can answer it if it's serious, but if it isn't, I probably shouldn't waste my energy.

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My point is that the so-called "feminists" who fought for the rights we are thankful for are not really comparable to those who fight for "rights" we don't believe in.  The whole "then give back your right to vote if you don't support pro-choice feminists today" does not work IMO.

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15 hours ago, hshibley said:

I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. If I’m just looking for books to suggest yes I think of what interests my son or daughters. If I’m designing a lit class for my child for the year I’m choosing commonly covered classics which inevitably leans towards male authors. That’s what Garga driving at. 

I agree.  I have 3 sons and 2 daughters.  I’ve definitely chosen some “girly” books for my girls and “boyish” books for my boys for general reading pleasure.  But, for Literature, I’ve scoured a million lists to create a library of classic and modern titles by and about diverse people, including women, people of color, people in or from other countries, and other cultures within our country.  

I have an English professor relative, and she’s not thrilled with how light I am on the classics, but I’m pretty much forced to go heavier on the more modern titles in order to get a decent array of representation.

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10 hours ago, moonflower said:

I took a lot of classes in college because they fit in the schedule right.  Swedish, aerobics, Carribbean Lit, all kinds of things.

I guess my point was that yes, it happens, but it's just rude to go in spouting opinions about the subject matter that you are taking just because it fits the schedule.  I mean, my daughter took Earth Science last year because it fit the schedule and she needed a science.  She thought it was absolutely the most dull class she had ever taken and that there was little use in spending so much time classifying and studying rocks. And I guess if it was in a small group she might tell her fellow students that she thinks rocks useless and boring, and I'm sure if someone in her International Politics of China and law class (or whatever it was called) thought it was a useless topic, they would save it for a small group setting to express that opinion.  If that were the case, then sure, go for it. But to state in class in front of students that are there for a reason -- because they think it IS important, is just inflammatory for no reason.  But it all really depends on the delivery. 

 

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I am definitely non-confrontational and did not, in any circumstance, state any sociopolitical opinions that were outside of the mainstream in any college class, except maybe once in Caribbean lit (which was taught by a black lesbian woman and turned out to be about only (primarily black, fair enough as it was the Caribbean) women's Caribbean lit) when someone asked how many people in the class were feminists and I didn't raise my hand.  

The professor was personally very kind and stopped to talk to me once the semester after that, when I was 7 months pregnant and eating lunch alone in the hallway.  For me, the interpersonal kindness so far outstrips in importance any ideological agreement or disagreement that I remember both her and the class kindly, although we probably agree about exactly nothing sociopolitically.

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12 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

As an English major having taken some pretty specific literature classes, I would seriously be questioning why someone is in the class if they think it's a waste of time.  It's fine to have that opinion about the relative merits of the class, but imo it's just kind of rude to say it IN THAT CLASS.  Because most of the students are there because they do think it's important.

 

Honestly?  That's not as true as you think.  Bottom line is any degree requires a not small amount of classes be taken that are not directly related to the main goal/interest subject.  It's just optimism to think most of those students taking most of those non-related to degree classes think it is important.  Truth is many, if not most, think it is a waste of their time.  They take what they have to take that fits the criteria and can fit in their hectic schedule and finance limits.  Given that very common scenario, professors are just going to have to get over their ego about how valued the class is going to seem to many of their students.

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21 hours ago, maize said:

while I agree with your point here, I am even more concerned that when women--historical, contemporary, or fictional --are portrayed as having interesting and meaningful lives it is almost never in the context of doing the things that have occupied and continue to occupy significant roles in most women's lives, including especially caregiving, nurturing, and community building roles. Women's lives are most often seen as interesting when they take on more traditionally male roles.

 

This.  I will never be a feminist if the only way to being one is to be as much like men as possible.  And I'm not even talking about traditional role issues, though I can see your perspective on that too.  But my qualms with current feminism is that I feel strongly it serves the basest wants of men more than it serves women and does not seem interested in actually bettering the lives of women by making them genuine equals.  Forcing women to live like the worst of men is not equality.  Or not any version of it I'm interested in.

When feminism starts demanding that women have genuine choices, to work or stay home with their children (which I think men should have as well), healthcare that doesn't treat having female reproductive organs as an illness to be fixed, demands family polices that benefit families more than companies, and values non-paid work as the public service is very much is - until that happens I will never be a feminist. In fact, in its current political form, I would consider it an insult to be called a feminist because so far it doesn't stand for much of anything I believe to be a social good.

Edited by Murphy101
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I'm not going looking for confrontation, but if put on the spot, I'll be honest about it.

For example if a teacher does a round of intros at the start of class such as, "tell us your name, degree goal, and why you think this class is important..." which is a somewhat common ice breaker.  I might quietly but cheerfully say, "blah blah blah.. as for the importance of this class, honestly, it's only importance is because it fit my schedule and I have to take a 3 credit humanities for my degree."

And I guarantee you I wouldn't be the only student to say such because I've heard similar lines in various classes.  About all kinds of classes.  "Biology for non-majors" was the most common one so far.

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When I was in college, there was one sociology teacher and he was an actual communist.  He ran for government office on the socialist ticket.  I took a bunch of sociology courses, because I did not have enough other choices to finish my degree at the regional campus.

I disagreed in class when I felt I had a reasonable opinion.  He was always cool about it.  He would encourage the person to verbally explore why and understand both sides in class.  I think college professors need to be able to do this.  The worst professors were the ones who couldn't think outside the box.  I mean why are they teaching other people if they themselves can't even rationally explore the issues?

In the OP situation, who knows how respectfully the "non-feminist" commented ... it should be possible to have the discussion, and I suspect it wouldn't be the first time for the teacher.  If you can't ask questions in a college class like that, when can you?  God gave us all a brain for a reason, right?

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

I'm not going looking for confrontation, but if put on the spot, I'll be honest about it.

For example if a teacher does a round of intros at the start of class such as, "tell us your name, degree goal, and why you think this class is important..." which is a somewhat common ice breaker.  I might quietly but cheerfully say, "blah blah blah.. as for the importance of this class, honestly, it's only importance is because it fit my schedule and I have to take a 3 credit humanities for my degree."

And I guarantee you I wouldn't be the only student to say such because I've heard similar lines in various classes.  About all kinds of classes.  "Biology for non-majors" was the most common one so far.

And I guess that is what I am saying as well -- there many ways to state an opinion.  Brashly and confrontationally is one way, but it's certainly not respectful and imo if you are taking someone's class that the professor has worked and researched for and comes every day in an earnest attempt to share his or her passion for the subject (unless they are just putting in time and could care less, but we will hope in most cases it's the former) then the least one can do is not tell the professor that the subject matter is a waste of time.  

 I will say one thing that was different about my experience was that the classes I didn't care about were so large that there was no ability for discussion, and in my major I launched almost immediately into upper division classes -- so everyone in those classes was a English major who DID want to be there. 

And I am by nature VERY non-confrontational. I just couldn't imagine stating something like that in front of people.  But it takes all kinds I guess, and if there were no opposing opinions to discuss then class would be extremely boring. 

 

Edited by SanDiegoMom in VA
Edited to save my husband's privacy:)
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20 hours ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

I just have to ask - exactly how do you think the SAT is scored?

I was referencing more of.....it should not ask gender or race or reveal any sort of demographics. And the essay should be typed to level the field for those who struggle with handwriting which is higher rate among boys. There should be no adversity score and when the writing is graded, the name, gender, race, etc, should not show. It should all be "blind" to allow for the highest chance at an unbiased score. And some have suggested admissions to college be the same way..completely blind. Show no race, gender, sexual orientation, nothing. Same for financial aid. It would be interesting and a game changer I think.  I know the multiple choice part itself is scantron style graded, but the final scoring is a full package. What the colleges will see when they get the score is everything from where the kids lives, a guess on the income level, race, gender, the demographics of his high school, the demographics of his neighborhood, whether or not his parents went to college, etc etc etc. 

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2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Honestly?  That's not as true as you think.  Bottom line is any degree requires a not small amount of classes be taken that are not directly related to the main goal/interest subject.  It's just optimism to think most of those students taking most of those non-related to degree classes think it is important.  Truth is many, if not most, think it is a waste of their time.  They take what they have to take that fits the criteria and can fit in their hectic schedule and finance limits.  Given that very common scenario, professors are just going to have to get over their ego about how valued the class is going to seem to many of their students.

 

Students may think that, but in my day, you didn't just get to get up and announce it to the whole class, using class time to do so.  Really, no one else cares why any other student is there. I think the students need to get over their egos. 

 

Edited by Happy2BaMom
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She could have said something like, "I'm interested in all aspects of literature, but I do wonder why there isn't a class that also discusses Men in Literature."

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4 hours ago, Janeway said:

And the essay should be typed to level the field for those who struggle with handwriting which is higher rate among boys. 

Why must we constantly make accommodations to make it easier for boys? 

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3 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

 

Students may think that, but in my day, you didn't just get to get up and announce it to the whole class, using class time to do so.  Really, no one else cares why any other student is there. I think the students need to get over their egos. 

 

Probably it was in the context of everyone introducing themselves and getting to know each other on the first day of class. We often did that in discussion type classes.

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16 hours ago, SKL said:

My point is that the so-called "feminists" who fought for the rights we are thankful for are not really comparable to those who fight for "rights" we don't believe in.  The whole "then give back your right to vote if you don't support pro-choice feminists today" does not work IMO.

 

Yeah, nobody is calling for you to give back your rights. 

But the US, and its intense focus on prolife/prochoice as THE issue, does not represent global feminism,  and I've already said upthread that I'm not a purity politics kind of person, so that's all I'm gonna say about that.

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7 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

This.  I will never be a feminist if the only way to being one is to be as much like men as possible.  And I'm not even talking about traditional role issues, though I can see your perspective on that too.  But my qualms with current feminism is that I feel strongly it serves the basest wants of men more than it serves women and does not seem interested in actually bettering the lives of women by making them genuine equals.  Forcing women to live like the worst of men is not equality.  Or not any version of it I'm interested in.

When feminism starts demanding that women have genuine choices, to work or stay home with their children (which I think men should have as well), healthcare that doesn't treat having female reproductive organs as an illness to be fixed, demands family polices that benefit families more than companies, and values non-paid work as the public service is very much is - until that happens I will never be a feminist. In fact, in its current political form, I would consider it an insult to be called a feminist because so far it doesn't stand for much of anything I believe to be a social good.

 

You don't know much about feminism if you think there are no feminists who agree with the bolded.  

Being a feminist, imo, means working towards the above. 

There is no single political form of feminism. The 'lean in, sex possy' form has the dominant narrative atm, but your demands would not be out of place in many feminist places I have been. 

 

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37 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

You don't know much about feminism if you think there are no feminists who agree with the bolded.  

Being a feminist, imo, means working towards the above. 

There is no single political form of feminism. The 'lean in, sex possy' form has the dominant narrative atm, but your demands would not be out of place in many feminist places I have been. 

 

 

I know enough via experience in the world to know if that’s true, they have a huge PR problem because that’s not the message or the image they convey.

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25 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I know enough via experience in the world to know if that’s true, they have a huge PR problem because that’s not the message or the image they convey.

 

Who is this 'they' ? Feminism is not a political party, it's not a centralised movement. 

There's no PR spokesperson for feminism.

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2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Who is this 'they' ? Feminism is not a political party, it's not a centralised movement. 

There's no PR spokesperson for feminism.

 

Okay.  

Moving on. 

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3 hours ago, hshibley said:

Why must we constantly make accommodations to make it easier for boys? 

I don't think we should make it easier. I think we should make it equal. 

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11 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I don't think we should make it easier. I think we should make it equal. 

 

Then we should help boys to have better penmanship instead of lowering expectations of them.

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1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

Who is this 'they' ? Feminism is not a political party, it's not a centralised movement. 

There's no PR spokesperson for feminism.

I took several feminist oriented classes while in grad school, and it was eye-opening to me to learn about various strands of recent past and current feminism. Very helpful in seeing how they agree and differ, and I watched some of those differences play out in real time amongst the professors (an unforgettable workshop discussing The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf comes to mind 😄). I agree that there are some strands of feminism that do focus on many of those goals; others, not so much. Some strands get more press; others, not so much. I usually shrug when someone says they aren’t a feminist because I figure they usually mean they disagree with some strands, but might very well agree with others.

 I took lunch to a relative in her 90s yesterday, and she told me the following story. Her aunt and uncle didn’t have children, and her aunt desperately wanted them. After her grandmother pulled her uncle aside and gave him several talks, he finally told her, “Look, she’s never having kids. You know I don’t like kids. When she went in for that emergency appendectomy awhile ago, I pulled the doc aside and told him to make sure while he was in there to snip things so she would never have kids.” The doc did, of course, because women have never been seen as having full bodily autonomy. No one ever told my relative’s aunt what her husband and the doc had done. Yep, I’m a feminist, partly because I hear stuff like that and connect it to all sorts of mindsets that are still around currently.

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Then we should help boys to have better penmanship instead of lowering expectations of them.

 

Until penmanship is an official part of the rubric (it's not, I've graded these tests), it's just a subjective way to substitute reading the paper for biased grading.

Penmanship is good, but it shouldn't be part of a grade for the ACT writing or SAT writing.  and it isn't, officially.

But unofficially, and sometimes unconsciously, handwriting impacts the grade.

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Then we should help boys to have better penmanship instead of lowering expectations of them.

If they want a handwriting test, then have a handwriting test and call it a handwriting test. 

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37 minutes ago, livetoread said:

I took several feminist oriented classes while in grad school, and it was eye-opening to me to learn about various strands of recent past and current feminism. Very helpful in seeing how they agree and differ, and I watched some of those differences play out in real time amongst the professors (an unforgettable workshop discussing The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf comes to mind 😄). I agree that there are some strands of feminism that do focus on many of those goals; others, not so much. Some strands get more press; others, not so much. I usually shrug when someone says they aren’t a feminist because I figure they usually mean they disagree with some strands, but might very well agree with others.

 I took lunch to a relative in her 90s yesterday, and she told me the following story. Her aunt and uncle didn’t have children, and her aunt desperately wanted them. After her grandmother pulled her uncle aside and gave him several talks, he finally told her, “Look, she’s never having kids. You know I don’t like kids. When she went in for that emergency appendectomy awhile ago, I pulled the doc aside and told him to make sure while he was in there to snip things so she would never have kids.” The doc did, of course, because women have never been seen as having full bodily autonomy. No one ever told my relative’s aunt what her husband and the doc had done. Yep, I’m a feminist, partly because I hear stuff like that and connect it to all sorts of mindsets that are still around currently.

 

And then there's the very self proclaiming feminist judge across the pond who ordered a woman have an abortion against her wishes and the wishes of her mother, who was willing to care for both.  Because the judge decided it was best for them both to not have to deal with a baby.

Sadly, many times these day I wonder if the biggest threat to women's equality is other women acting just like the oppressive men in history.  All done in the name of wiser and kinder good intention of course.  As though that makes it okay.

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3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

And then there's the very self proclaiming feminist judge across the pond who ordered a woman have an abortion against her wishes and the wishes of her mother, who was willing to care for both.  Because the judge decided it was best for them both to not have to deal with a baby.

Sadly, many times these day I wonder if the biggest threat to women's equality is other women acting just like the oppressive men in history.  All done in the name of wiser and kinder good intention of course.  As though that makes it okay.

This one dropped my jaw when I read it in the news. Why hello eugenics....why aren't more people screaming about this?  So much more I could say, but I need to shut up and not derail the thread. 

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49 minutes ago, livetoread said:

I took several feminist oriented classes while in grad school, and it was eye-opening to me to learn about various strands of recent past and current feminism. Very helpful in seeing how they agree and differ, and I watched some of those differences play out in real time amongst the professors (an unforgettable workshop discussing The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf comes to mind 😄). I agree that there are some strands of feminism that do focus on many of those goals; others, not so much. Some strands get more press; others, not so much. I usually shrug when someone says they aren’t a feminist because I figure they usually mean they disagree with some strands, but might very well agree with others.

 I took lunch to a relative in her 90s yesterday, and she told me the following story. Her aunt and uncle didn’t have children, and her aunt desperately wanted them. After her grandmother pulled her uncle aside and gave him several talks, he finally told her, “Look, she’s never having kids. You know I don’t like kids. When she went in for that emergency appendectomy awhile ago, I pulled the doc aside and told him to make sure while he was in there to snip things so she would never have kids.” The doc did, of course, because women have never been seen as having full bodily autonomy. No one ever told my relative’s aunt what her husband and the doc had done. Yep, I’m a feminist, partly because I hear stuff like that and connect it to all sorts of mindsets that are still around currently.

I don’t see that so much a feminism issue as I do a basic human right to oversee our own medical care.  You didn’t mention when this happened, but no way do I believe this would happen today.  

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32 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t see that so much a feminism issue as I do a basic human right to oversee our own medical care.  You didn’t mention when this happened, but no way do I believe this would happen today.  

 

Careful. As little as 40 years ago, native Americans, POC and poor people were sterilized without their knowledge or told lies to make them consent.

There is still a LOT of pressure on POC, native Americans and poor people to get rid of their children or get sterilized and they are more likely to have their children taken from them by CPS. 

I’d be horrified to hear of this today because it’s awful. 

But I sadly wouldn’t be as surprised as one would hope to be by 2019. 

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52 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

And then there's the very self proclaiming feminist judge across the pond who ordered a woman have an abortion against her wishes and the wishes of her mother, who was willing to care for both.  Because the judge decided it was best for them both to not have to deal with a baby.

Sadly, many times these day I wonder if the biggest threat to women's equality is other women acting just like the oppressive men in history.  All done in the name of wiser and kinder good intention of course.  As though that makes it okay.

 

That's a simplification of a very unhappy and complex story.

I'm not yet sure what I think of the ruling, and even if I decide I agree with it, no-one is our celebrating it, but this is far from the full narrative.

Basically, the judge ruled that the other option - woman without competency due to IQ under 50 + severe mood disorders gives birth, child is given to grandparent, and woman is then removed from her home, as her co-morbid mood disorders made her an unsafe person to live with a baby - was not in the woman's best interests.  The judge decided the termination would cause the least risk and ongoing trauma to the woman's life.

Not that it would cause no trauma. But that of a set of really unhappy options, this had the chance of being the least unhappy for the woman concerned. The judge was not empowered to rule on the baby's best interests, or the grandmother's best interests. Only that of the severely disabled woman, whose case only ended up in court because there were concerns around the young woman's guardian, concerns which included allowing the young woman to engage in sexual relationships without contraception being provided. 

I am not going to get into a back and forth on abortion with anyone with who sees it as black and white, but it's unfair to use this case as a point in your pro-life, anti-feminist argument, without acknowledging that the complexities of the case.

It's a horrible case. No-one would want to be subject to it, and no-one would wish to be the person tasked with ruling on it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

This one dropped my jaw when I read it in the news. Why hello eugenics....why aren't more people screaming about this?  So much more I could say, but I need to shut up and not derail the thread. 

 

I'll chat with you about it in PM if you want. Like I said, I don't know what I think yet, but there is a lot of info related to this case that makes it a bit more complicated than 'we don't want disabled people breeding'. Not prepared to do it on the thread though!

 

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I have been reading along with not much to say because well as usual I do t fit into any of the usual pigeon holes.  I believe humans should be paid the same for the same work.  And that men and women are not the same. 

I am not political though.  

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8 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I'll chat with you about it in PM if you want. Like I said, I don't know what I think yet, but there is a lot of info related to this case that makes it a bit more complicated than 'we don't want disabled people breeding'. Not prepared to do it on the thread though!

 

Thanks Stella, I’d normally take you up on that discussion, but I’m not in a great mindset for it at the moment. 

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10 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t see that so much a feminism issue as I do a basic human right to oversee our own medical care.  

Through all of history there have been women who think their basic human rights are already met so why complain or rock the boat? There have also been women who disagree and fight for those basic human rights. It’s no different currently. We have come a long way, but I think we still have a ways to go before we can fully enjoy our basic human rights, and I don’t agree with separating feminism from basic human rights. That doesn’t mean I see eye to eye with all of the various feminist activists and strands, nor their tactics, but I agree overall with feminists that we still have a fight on our hands.

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All morals are political and all human rights are political.

Politics at its core is nothing more than social groups working towards what kind of society they want to have.

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5 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

All morals are political and all human rights are political.

Politics at its core is nothing more than social groups working towards what kind of society they want to have.

Yes I am not working to change the works. But I can still have an opinion on right or wrong and counsel individuals in my life without getting into politics. 

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9 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Thanks Stella, I’d normally take you up on that discussion, but I’m not in a great mindset for it at the moment. 

 

Totally get it. Take care.

The ruling has been overturned on appeal anyway - by both a female and a male judge.

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