Barton not working for spelling...try Megawords or Apples & Pears?

[caedmyn]

My 10 yo has done through Level 8 of Barton.  This past school year he reviewed all the spelling in Barton with a tutor because he'd apparently forgotten it all after finishing Level 8.  He still does not apply it to anything he writes at all, and doesn't seem to remember or apply any of the rules even when we're trying to do spelling review.  I don't feel like more Barton review is going to accomplish anything, so I think we need to try a different spelling program.  I was thinking of either Megawords or Apples & Pears.  My mildly dyslexic 13 YO has done several levels of Megawords and it has helped her some, but it seems like Apples and Pears might be a bit more geared toward younger kids.  I just need something he'll do fairly willingly/won't consider too much work, and that can be done mostly independently if possible.  I'm not sure how teacher-intensive Apples and Pears is.  DD has done Megawords independently other than me dictating words to spell occasionally, but I'm not sure it was intended to be done that way.

[Ausmumof3]

Apples and pears is definitely teacher intensive you are meant to be there for the whole lesson.  It’s also very repetitive and the lessons are quite long.  

[PeterPan]

Is it a program he needs or more use? My dd (not dyslexic) needed a TON of practice to get anything to stick for spelling and get carryover to life. I consider my dh dyslexic (not diagnosed) and he says typing and using the spell correct on the typing has been the BEST THING for his typing. There's really good prediction software now, both integrated and separate things. I think I was just reading that microsoft has a really good system, I don't know. 

It seems to me like Barton 8 is probably going beyond spelling he gives a rip about or needs to use. I haven't gone that far, just saying. Is he working on typing? That would be another way to work on some automaticity for spelling. The Eides talking about harnessing kinesthetic memory for spelling. We always think of visual for spelling, but their point is that you'll build kinesthetic memory by typing. There's also a lot LOT of evidence about the value of WRITING for spelling, even for dyslexics. Unless there's deal-breaker dysgraphia, it's a thing to be doing.

[kbutton]

We use Sequential Spelling, but it's teacher intensive (but not hard and doesn't take us long). There are videos, so maybe if you use the videos, it's independent.

As soon as typing skills are reasonable, we switch to typing lists. It's pattern-based, so the curriculum reinforces the visual, the components (prefixes, suffixes), and the motor memory for spelling patterns.

 

[Terabith]

I would give Apples and Pears a try, but it’s not independent at all.  I’m not sure there’s an effective spelling program that is though.  I will say my kid made more progress in spelling with six months of a smart phone with word prediction than in four years of Wilson tutoring.  

Edited June 18, 2019 by Terabith

[caedmyn]

I’ve been debating about starting typing with him this year.  I wonder if I could just use Touch Type Read and Spell and count that for spelling too.  At least it would be non teacher intensive.  He’ll hopefully be starting vision therapy soon, and my 6 yo needs OT so I’ll have to fit those in somewhere...and there’s only so much of me to go around.

[Terabith]

I think that could work.  And I don’t know how you feel about tech, but smart phone access, texting friends, and online role playing REALLY helped my kid.  She was 12 rather than 10 when we gave her the phone.  I was really reluctant to give her a phone at that age but it’s worked out well for her.  But she’s cautious, responsible, and trustworthy by nature, which of course makes a big difference.  

[Tanaqui]

I don't find the lessons in Apples and Pears that long - usually we set the timer for 15 minutes and we get through a whole level, or half a level if she's whining. And while there is no way to do it independently (and I can't imagine a spelling curriculum that IS done independently, especially not for kids who need extra help) there isn't much teacher prep. Open, read the script, check the work as you go.

It has really worked for my dyslexic kiddo. Fair warning, she doesn't like it, she thinks it's boring and too repetitive. Well... it is repetitive, and that's why it works. She also resents having to do any spelling at all, and last week told me she's "sure" that no other middle school child has that. I don't think she believed me when I told her we had spelling five days a week through the 8th grade, and vocabulary following nearly the same method as spelling* through high school.

* All my teachers had the exact same routine for these subjects, no matter which school I was in. I don't think it's the most effective way to teach either spelling OR vocabulary, but it allowed them to offload all the work to homework rather than actually teaching the material themselves. The routine was Monday pretest and for homework write all words down alphabetically (with definitions once we started spelling vocabulary words), Tuesday write all words in sentences, Wednesday (for spelling) write list three times, Thursday study for the test (nobody ever gave us explicit instruction on how to study, meaning that most kids probably did the most inefficient method, reading the list over and over again), Friday test, Saturday review what you missed (or don't, because nobody will ever check that you did).

[maize]

33 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I don't find the lessons in Apples and Pears that long - usually we set the timer for 15 minutes and we get through a whole level, or half a level if she's whining. And while there is no way to do it independently (and I can't imagine a spelling curriculum that IS done independently, especially not for kids who need extra help) there isn't much teacher prep. Open, read the script, check the work as you go.

It has really worked for my dyslexic kiddo. Fair warning, she doesn't like it, she thinks it's boring and too repetitive. Well... it is repetitive, and that's why it works. She also resents having to do any spelling at all, and last week told me she's "sure" that no other middle school child has that. I don't think she believed me when I told her we had spelling five days a week through the 8th grade, and vocabulary following nearly the same method as spelling* through high school.

* All my teachers had the exact same routine for these subjects, no matter which school I was in. I don't think it's the most effective way to teach either spelling OR vocabulary, but it allowed them to offload all the work to homework rather than actually teaching the material themselves. The routine was Monday pretest and for homework write all words down alphabetically (with definitions once we started spelling vocabulary words), Tuesday write all words in sentences, Wednesday (for spelling) write list three times, Thursday study for the test (nobody ever gave us explicit instruction on how to study, meaning that most kids probably did the most inefficient method, reading the list over and over again), Friday test, Saturday review what you missed (or don't, because nobody will ever check that you did).

This would be such wasteful busywork for kids who don't struggle with spelling! Inefficiencies of school.

[Tanaqui]

And not terribly useful for kids who DO struggle with spelling, either, especially when the words are just picked seemingly at random or "well, we'll do vocab and spelling together".

Also, there were never any homework outs for kids who got perfect scores on their pretests. SO WHY HAVE PRETESTS AT ALL?

Edited June 20, 2019 by Tanaqui

[Ottakee]

Apples and Pears is great.  It is scripted so very easy to use.  If a full lesson is too long, do 1/2 level at a time.  Someone else could do this with him if they can read at a solid 4th grade level.

[Heathermomster]

DD completed Apples and Pear level C last year, and there was a ton of crazy British sentence dictation.  We loved it. The sentences were warped in a comedic way.  Half the time daughter read the sentences herself to believe I wasn’t making them up.  We enjoyed spelling last year, and DD’s spelling improved.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Heathermomster said:

DD completed Apples and Pear level C last year, and there was a ton of crazy British sentence dictation.  We loved it. The sentences were warped in a comedic way.  Half the time daughter read the sentences herself to believe I wasn’t making them up.  We enjoyed spelling last year, and DD’s spelling improved.

Are you selling off your old A&P levels? 

[mmasc]

We use and like A&P. You have to present it to your child, but I don’t consider it teacher intensive because there’s no prep really at all. It’s mostly dictation-type stuff. I set the timer for 15 minutes and we stop when it goes off. I find it to be one of my favorite things to teach bc it’s just so predictable for me as the teacher. 

[hepatica]

Just my experience, but I'd go with typing rather than spelling. All these spelling programs are effective, but likely not for your kiddo, especially if you have already done 8 levels of Barton. So, as you say, there is a time suck factor here. He will need to type. Typing will be time well spent. You can do TTRS or just learning to type, but either will be time better spent than on another spelling program. 

My oldest dyslexic turned out to be an ok speller (not good but not horrible like her younger sister). Spelling did not begin to get better until at least age 12-13. I think the cognitive strain of writing was just too great before then, an in reality she was 16 before I'd say her spelling was good enough that she could hand write a test essay and not have it be riddled with errors. She also benefitted from the visual of seeing her misspellings highlighted in a word processing program.

My middle daughter is 15, and she is a horrible speller. She types everything. She is, btw, a fantastic writer.

The problem with so many spelling programs for dyslexic/dysgraphic kids is that weekly routine of writing words, writing definitions, writing sentences etc, takes ssooooooo long that there is simply no time or cognitive energy left for anything else. I have found it is much more academically useful for my kids to spend their time reading (or listening to) books with advanced vocabulary and content and actually writing and composing, than to spend hours trying to get simple sentences down on paper. There is no way my kids could ever get experience writing paragraphs or essays without being able to type.

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, hepatica said:

Just my experience, but I'd go with typing rather than spelling.

Just to bolster that a bit, the Eides in DA mention that there is kinesthetic memory with typing that makes it a strong way to work on spelling for dyslexics. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by PeterPan