Spelling Help

[lulalu]

Trying to figure out a good spelling program to use for 2nd next year. 

This year we did Spelling You See A. I liked it ok. But it looks like B will be a lot more writing (which is a struggle), it doesn't seem to be specific enough on spelling patterns/rules, and it is a lot of money. 

 

I suspect ds has dysgraphia. We can't get any evaluations. But he struggles to write anything, and has no visual ability in writing. 

This is a sample of his writing (I wrote laundry obviously) but his sentence is all squished together. 

Any program ideas? Ways to help his writing not be squished? What spelling has worked for your kids? He reads well, but can't seem to hold what a word looks like in his head. 

[PeterPan]

I haven't seen your other posts. How is he doing with reading? My ds has a dysgraphia diagnosis and has significant visual motor integration problems. We've done OT and after several years of OT he can write a few single words in about 20-40 minutes. To me it looks like your ds has dyslexia. He's getting the writing out, letters are formed consistently for size, seem to follow rules for capitals, go across in a relatively straight line (considering there is no line), and well he wrote a lot there. I'm not a psych.

What I see is horrific spelling with very phonologically based errors. It would be more consistent with dyslexia.

Did he do those doodles as well? Does he like to draw? I would continue to doodle, do dot to dots, do other forms of engaging fine motor daily. Anything with origami, art, coding, painting, playdough, assembling and disassembling things, light brite, etc. 

I think the question of his spelling needs to be in the context of how is reading is going. Does he have any vision complaints or complain of seeing double or fatigue? Does he do anything like leaning strangely or covering an eye or going close to his paper as he works? He has a lot of double letters there that almost make you wonder if his vision is affected. Convergence issues would cause that. Any chance you can get him to an eye doctor, especially one who can check for convergence, tracking, and other developmental vision issues?

Just your tip of the day, but I wouldn't be encouraging him to spell incorrectly. Help him to self-monitor and ask when he doesn't know the spelling. Put out a bowl of m&ms and reward him for asking. He can use visualization, a spelling dictionary, ask Siri/Alexa, ask you, etc.

Edited June 16, 2019 by PeterPan

[lulalu]

Dh is dyslexic and dysgraphic. 

Ds reading- he reads well. But will skip words like a, of, on etc. He has trouble tracking to the next line unless MY finger is pointing. Not all the time but at least one sentence while reading he will flip the words around- so if it says it was there, he says there is was. He understands everything he reads well. He finished CLE I Wonder (first grade reading) just fine doing the reading on his own. He still sometimes has a hard time with short vowels and seems like longer words are easier. We are using Phonics Pathways and ETC for phonics and CLE for reading. 

So- you wouldn't allow free writing? Always being sure it is spelled correct even for a free write? 

DH did therapy for reading and writing in school. We however are expats living with horrible local schools or crazy expensive private ok schools. We were in the states for several months and I asked local schools which would not help because he was young. And insurance covered no evals. He turned 7 in April. 

He has just started to like to draw. Fine motor has always been a bog struggle. I worked so hard (about 2 years) on correct pencil grip, which he now is consistent with doing right. 

 

[lulalu]

I should add- the picture is a free writing he did. He just brought me the paper because he had no clue how to write laundry. 

[PeterPan]

Well he's at the right age to get diagnosed. I don't know what happened with you and the schools. If you showed them writing like that and made a formal written request, they should have done the evals. My ds got his IEP at 6 and got the SLDs diagnosed, but he was on the young side. The school should have done the evals if you made a written request and had evidence.

Yes, if your dh is dyslexic and dysgraphic, then I would assume your ds is too. That's how his spelling is presenting. Have you given him any placement tests or assessments to see where he's testing? It's been ages since I've done one. SWR that I used with my dd came with a set of placement tests, so I just ran them every so often. I think right now you don't have data to put his achievement in perspective.

It would be in error to assume that dyslexics don't read. We have people on the board here who's dc were diagnosed later because it showed up in the spelling. 

1 hour ago, lulalu said:

He still sometimes has a hard time with short vowels and seems like longer words are easier.

So he could be guessing with longer words based on context and a strong vocabulary and struggling on shorter words where he has less clues and can't guess as well. 

So you're using 3 programs and he's struggling with short vowels? He's a rising 2nd grader. That alone is pretty discrepant. The only words he spelled correctly on the page were CVC (bed, mop). He's not at grade level on spelling, that's for sure, and he might not be for reading. 

I think given the total picture I would look into your options for materials that are appropriate for dyslexia. The MA Rooney Foundation has free OG materials available online http://www.marooneyfoundation.org/professional-learning.aspx  If you go to one approach that is meant for dyslexia, you'll get consistency in your reading and spelling instruction and get a level of explicitness that might allow him to begin to succeed in spelling.

Before you begin OG or whatever option you consider next, you might give him the free screening from Barton. https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss  It's NOT a dyslexia test, but it is a screener to make sure the dc has the basic phonemic awareness and working memory to succeed at an OG program. So if he passes the screener, you could use the free materials from the MA Rooney Foundation. If he doesn't pass the screener, then you'll need to work on those skills first. The screener only takes about 15 minutes.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, lulalu said:

So- you wouldn't allow free writing? Always being sure it is spelled correct even for a free write? 

His personal writing like this gives you a window into where his errors are and what he has mastered, so it's good information. I would be *available* when he writes and teach him to self-monitor and ask for help (or use Siri or a spelling dictionary) during times where he's writing for you. As you say, stuff he decides to write for himself is his own and not to be corrected. It's very charming work and it's adorable that he wanted to do it. 

[1shortmomto4]

So if you go with the assumption that he is dyslexic/dysgraphic I wouldn't be using Pathways/ETC - they are great, I suppose for review but I didn't find retention in the long run for a struggling student.  I would look at something that is OG - for a young student All About Reading would be great - yes, not cheap, but cheaper than Barton.  They don't recommend spelling until you've completed the first 3 levels of reading and then you begin to review all those sounds you've learned.  I've worked through the AAR and AAS - I completed all of the AAR levels but after level 3 of AASpelling is when I switched back over to Spelling U See.  They have specific time guidelines so the child is not writing for long periods of time.  When I started SUS I was stopping the writing process but my kids wanted to write more and they didn't like not finishing the selection during dictation so we just kept going - but NOT until they were much stronger in their skills.  There are other OG options, obviously but this is what I found worked and was easy to implement and very child/teacher friendly.  But it is important to keep in mind that this is not something that can be done independently by the student - it has to be taught - as it should be because once they've learned something the "wrong way" it sure is hard to have them unlearn it 😉

You didn't say what you are using for handwriting instruction? 

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So he could be guessing with longer words based on context and a strong vocabulary and struggling on shorter words where he has less clues and can't guess as well. 

This, for sure. My dyslexic readers are much better at longer words - they're more distinctive, and the kids don't apply any real decoding skills to them... they just make sense in context. Telling the difference between pool, pole, pale, etc. is much more difficult. 

[lulalu]

Handwriting without Tears- the whole thing. This is great for him and what it looked like before! 

[lulalu]

11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well he's at the right age to get diagnosed. I don't know what happened with you and the schools. If you showed them writing like that and made a formal written request, they should have done the evals. My ds got his IEP at 6 and got the SLDs diagnosed, but he was on the young side. The school should have done the evals if you made a written request and had evidence.

Yes, if your dh is dyslexic and dysgraphic, then I would assume your ds is too. That's how his spelling is presenting. Have you given him any placement tests or assessments to see where he's testing? It's been ages since I've done one. SWR that I used with my dd came with a set of placement tests, so I just ran them every so often. I think right now you don't have data to put his achievement in perspective.

 

 

Basically, the school didn't want to work with a homeschool family only having 3 months in the states...... 

 

He took a reading test with an edicational specialist for expats. He is reading at the end of first grade level. So he is on par for reading. But she didn't do any testing for spelling. Although I did tell her how much of a struggle it is. 

 

[PeterPan]

My ds was reading at a supposed 6th grade level at the end of 1st. Totally blew the OG tutor's mind. He's still dyslexic.

[1shortmomto4]

So he is reading at grade level but his spelling is not great.  I'll be honest - not sure I know a second grader that could spell the word laundry so perhaps things are not as bad as you think they might be.  I've read repeatedly over the years as I worked with 4 kids - 3 of which have struggled due to many issues - dyslexic/dysgraphia were just the start...that you don't focus on spelling until you've got the foundation solid when it comes to reading and it sounds like you are still working on this at this point.  I'd be inclined to look at All About Spelling and just reaffirm those early lessons of reading - you'd be reviewing skills he already knows and work on those small words he seems to be missing.  Take a look at their site - they now have an app that might be appealing.  Also look at Logic of English - this works with the phonics instruction and handwriting - yes, I know HWT has been working but with dysgraphia - he's going to hit a wall.

[PeterPan]

Yeah the only reason I suggested the MA Rooney materials is because they're a free pdf download, easy to use for someone overseas. If you can get things shipped, that opens up a lot of options. 

[73349]

My DS is 4 years older than yours. We don't have the dysgraphia dx in hand yet, but it is a pretty sure bet at this point. Logic of English products got him reading but did not work for spelling. He did not retain much from SYS, and the writing output (yes, even using a timer to stop at 10 minutes) was enough that he pushed back on writing much else, so I dropped it after a year.

He can look at a word and know whether it's right or wrong quite well, but can't fix it if it's wrong. He has trouble copying a word from one place to another even on the same page. (Yes, we've had his vision looked at. It's more of a memory issue.) He has a lot to say unless he knows he's going to have to get it on paper, even typing.

What I've learned about spelling for him is that spiral is essential. He cannot work on a word list for a week and then know it. We did the free trial of Moving Beyond the Page's spelling (the 8-10 level even though he was already 11), and it helped quite a bit. I'm going to pay for a subscription. I also went back to basics and started my own set of words for him to work on meanwhile. (I used spelling patterns like Wheeler's does. On Monday, he highlights the pattern(s). On Tuesday, he recalls the patterns and dictates each word to me; I write them on popsicle sticks and he alphabetizes them. On Wednesday, I write the pattern or base word on a series of lines; he has to listen and add letters before/after to form the words I say. On Thursday, he has to write a list in cursive from hearing, but he can ask for help. On Friday, he has to type a list from hearing. Both Thursday and Friday, words from old lists are mixed in with new ones.) Now he's making a bit of progress.

[lulalu]

Any thoughts on Apples and Pears or Sequential Spelling? 

 

[Ottakee]

On 6/23/2019 at 3:16 AM, lulalu said:

Any thoughts on Apples and Pears or Sequential Spelling? 

 

I LOVE Apples and Pears spelling.  Worked great here and is easy to use.  Even an older sibling that can read at a solid 4th grade level could "teach" it.  If the lessons are too long, do 1/2 level per day.

[hepatica]

I find this Susan Barton video very helpful for understanding what kind of spelling mistakes a child is making.