Please help me sort out what I need to do

[Jentrovert]

Hello, this is my first post on the forums. I've been registered and reading for quite some time, and should have come on before now to say thank you for all the tips and info I've gleaned. Now I've reached a point where I'm not really sure what to do, or how to do it, and could really use some advice specific to my situation. This is about my daughter, K. She turned 7 in December.

From the time she could talk well, she has had very good phonemic awareness. She would say a word and ask, "now what does that start with?" and "what's at the end?". By preschool she knew all her single letter phonograms just from our talking about words (at her request). She loved rhyming. Her comprehension has always been great with read-alouds, and she has enjoyed listening to chapter books since she was around 4. Loves audiobooks. Excellent vocabulary. K talks all. the. time. To the point it is annoying to the rest of us. Talking and moving, always talking and moving. 😀 I mention all this to make clear that this kid LOVES words and stories. 

We're in LOE Foundations C. Two or three times, in B and C, we've completely stopped new lessons because it just seems to go too fast (too many new phonograms to learn). This is fine with me. We work on fluency, games, phonogram review until it seems she's ready, and then move ahead. It has never seemed like her reading ability is what it should be, given her interest and background, and the explicit phonics, but she always seemed to be making some progress and was so young, I didn't worry too much about it.

She does not seem to have much visual memory. For example, if I had a penny for every time I heard /t/   /h/    /e/ . . . . it took several hundred times of reading this word for her to recognize the /th/, much less recognize the whole word. LOE doesn't have much repetition, and I recognized that she needed more, so we have added it in. But it still takes so many times decoding a word to seem to recognize it at all.

She had a big leap around the time she turned 6, where she was able to read things like Biscuit and Frog and Toad with enough fluency to begin to enjoy it. Now, she can read those books with little error as long as she is paying attention. She can decode most words in Mercy Watson now, but frequently not with enough fluency to understand what she has read. If she has a minute or two where she is spot-on with attention, she can read it fluently, but this doesn't happen often. 

She doesn't seem to reverse letters when she is reading, but does when writing (b, d, p, etc). She has convergence insufficiency and we have done vision therapy (we see a developmental optometrist) for a long time. Last visit, we were told that if she were to visit a new optometrist, they wouldn't know she had CI. She still has eyestrain and tires very easily when reading, rubs eyes.

Don't know if it matters, but probably 3 years ago, I printed out the RAN color sheets (I think that is what they are called?) that someone posted here. She did very poorly on them, but with practice has improved.

On one hand, it doesn't seem like she's far away from normal with reading . . . on the other hand, there is just something nagging at me that it is harder than it should be. Every single thing has been taught explicitly and practiced over and over. If she decodes a word and it appears again 3 words later, it usually has to be completely decoded again from beginning to end. And I read about stealth dyslexia and think maybe it's just masked by the explicit instruction, like it's just enough to get us this far but how far will it go . . . then again, maybe I just need to cultivate more patience . . . and I go in circles. 

Other issues: She has always had a good grasp of math concepts. However, at the same time, there seems to be a lag between her actual understanding and output (verbal). Things like skip-counting have taken so much repetition to grasp. I have had 2 grandparents with Alzheimer's and 1 with dementia. Very often, the look on her face is exactly how theirs was when they were still aware of things . . . it was clear they could understand the words you said, and they knew they should easily be able to respond, but they just could not process what the words meant. Kwim? If I ask a question (even something very easy that she completely has down) I need to wait several seconds for the answer. She will say, "hold on, hold on, I've got it." and then finishes thinking. She also often tries to cover up her taking time to think by drawing out words, like "Ok . . . you know this one . . . of course I do too . . . . the answer . . . . is . . ." In addition, anything with multiple numbers or steps requires me to repeat a lot, anything that requires her to hold things in her head. So I am wondering about working memory and processing speed. Another thing I just thought of is that she does not seem to recognize some obvious patterns in sound. For example, if I say, "201, 202, 203 . ." and then she is to continue the pattern, she has no idea. I then say, "hmmm, 1, 2, 3 . . what comes next?" "4, 5, 6" "So 201, 202, 203," and then from the next room her brother calls, "204, 205, 206 . . ." while she is completely stumped. He doesn't have nearly the understanding of numbers that she does, but he hears the pattern. She has improved on this very recently, but that is an example. 

She constantly asks, "What?" after we say things. (A couple years ago, we had her hearing tested due to this. It is fine.) Many times, she heard, it just takes several seconds for her to process. Or at least, that is what it seems like. K is so very loud, she is always the loudest person in the room and it also seems like she doesn't hear because she's always making loud noises or talking loudly.

I find myself getting very irritated with her at things like this. Also, with most of it, like the reading, it is frustrating because on the rare occasions she really focuses, there is marked improvement. But of course, she can't focus so closely all the time. She is really such a wonderful kid, and this post feels like I'm harping on all the irritating things, lol. 

I spoke with the ped about some of this recently, and she really didn't know. She said that normally it's all handled by the school and so she wasn't sure what to do. (K is so articulate and behaved so well that I got the idea she really didn't think there was much going on.) I suggested a neuropsych eval and she was agreeable. We actually don't even need a referral, she is covered by OK Medicaid and because it's due to adoption they don't require a PCP or referral. 

Sorry this was so very long, I don't even know what to ask now. lol Probably much of that info wasn't needed. Am I overthinking things and these really aren't issues? Some of it seems within the realm of normal, but I don't want to delay further if I need to be doing something. What do I need to do? And if a neuropsych eval is the thing to do, does anyone have any recommendations in Oklahoma? 

Jenn

[PeterPan]

Welcome to the boards. I'm glad you're out of lurking! I see you're in Oklahoma. My dd is there this summer. 

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

She has convergence insufficiency and we have done vision therapy (we see a developmental optometrist) for a long time. Last visit, we were told that if she were to visit a new optometrist, they wouldn't know she had CI. She still has eyestrain and tires very easily when reading, rubs eyes.

This doesn't seem like a very satisfactory outcome. You might need a 2nd opinion to sort that out. Was she tested for retained reflexes? Has she had an OT eval?  My dd's eyes were still persnickity, even after VT, and she wears progressives, has for several years now. They can do bifocal contacts, all sorts of magical stuff. But it's possible (with my dd, with yours) that some retained reflexes are behind the continued problems. My dd has some praxis, not enough to get her a DCD diagnosis but enough that it's there and pesky. She's also pretty low tone. 

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

She does not seem to have much visual memory. For example, if I had a penny for every time I heard /t/   /h/    /e/ . . . . it took several hundred times of reading this word for her to recognize the /th/, much less recognize the whole word.

Ok, it's possible she has really poor visual memory, but again it might be time for a 2nd opinion. They could update the visual processing testing and decide based on data whether it's a visual memory problem. If it is, the optometrist should have been treating it. But if it's not, then it's dyslexia. That's pretty classic dyslexia. My dd had exceptionally poor visual memory before her VT, and she learned to read just fine. She needed some fluency work, but she didn't do that. What you're describing is what my dyslexic ds does. So I'd be more inclined to assume you've got a very bright dyslexic and get some further evaluations. Update your visual processing testing, sure, but it sounds like it's time for psych evals to do the whole gig and check for dyslexia.

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

Every single thing has been taught explicitly and practiced over and over. If she decodes a word and it appears again 3 words later, it usually has to be completely decoded again from beginning to end.

Yes, that's classic dyslexia.

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

However, at the same time, there seems to be a lag between her actual understanding and output (verbal).

I think when you get the full psych evals for the dyslexia she'll also turn out to have some ADHD and low processing speed. Now if you use a neuropsych, they can do some additional testing for things like word retrieval. You could also do that through a SLP if you want. The SLP can run the CTOPP, do narrative language testing, etc. etc. If the SLP specializes in literacy, they'll have tests like this. 

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

For example, if I say, "201, 202, 203 . ." and then she is to continue the pattern, she has no idea.

Oh who knows. Math processes in two sides of the brain, conceptual on one side, language and number sense on the other. So dyslexics will sometimes have math be crunchy too, just because there's that affect in language parts of the brain. Could be that, could be she'll get an SLD diagnosis. Could be some APD and maybe the air conditioner was on or something. You're just going to get some evals and let things sift out. Does she have any problems understanding in background noise or complain of it being hard to hear in certain environments?

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

She constantly asks, "What?" after we say things. (A couple years ago, we had her hearing tested due to this. It is fine.) Many times, she heard, it just takes several seconds for her to process. Or at least, that is what it seems like. K is so very loud, she is always the loudest person in the room and it also seems like she doesn't hear because she's always making loud noises or talking loudly.

Haha, you've been learning a lot here on the boards! So yes, that was a good move getting her hearing checked. So you know it's not her actual ability to hear, which whittles it down to processing speed (which is pretty glaringly an issue) and how she processes. The modulation issues are a little more concerning. You could see what happens if you work on the ADHD. You might do some bodywork and self-awareness exercises and see what happens. Maybe she's kinda busy and not noticing, sigh. Like try for a book of "games for ADHD" and that kind of thing from the library. I think I have one. Yup, it's Boost Emotional Intelligence but it's targeting gr5-8. Just see what your library has. Won't cost anything and it will be a nice together break between your harder stuff. You just want to be modulating, fast/slow, loud/quiet, and building some awareness on that. There's the outside chance that it's something else (progressive hearing loss, autism, other things), but I'd just start with the simplest, most likely explanations. Our local dyslexia school brings in quite a bit with social thinking, so it's not overkill to be approaching it that way. Just start somewhere and see what happens. If she's being loud like that and you go to non-verbals (pointing) and drop language entirely, does she modulate down? Or if she's loud and you whisper, does she come down? 

Is she doing anything with music? How's that going? My ds has gotten nice progress with music therapy, so I'm all a fan of getting them into anything music.

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

she is covered by OK Medicaid and because it's due to adoption they don't require a PCP or referral. 

Ok, so that's a good deal! So yes, neuropsych and also consider an SLP eval. If you find an SLP who specializes in literacy, they can look at the reading, narrative language development, word retrieval, screen her auditory processing, all sorts of things. It will be immensely practical, have a shorter waiting list than the neuropsych, and probably turn out things you can do immediately.

It sounds like you should go ahead and do the screenings for Barton to see whether you're looking at LIPS/FIS or Barton 1 or what. Would you want to do the intervention yourself or use a tutor? 

Don't feel bashful about moving her up to materials meant for intervention. Lots of things are good, but she's clearly going to need a higher tier of intervention to get things clicking. So you're wanting Barton, Wilson, OG with a certified tutor, whatever. Don't feel like you have to pussyfoot around on that. Strong materials can clean this up and get her moving forward. She's clearly very bright. 

Does she have any strengths or things she enjoys doing? Remember to work on those as you go forward.

[Jentrovert]

45 minutes ago, kand said:

A lot of what you describe sounds like my 16yo at that age. She turns out to be a “stealth dyslexic”.  Super high IQ, super low processing speed. One difference is that my daughter took longer to rhyme than the rest of her siblings, which is a common area of difficulty for young dyslexics. I think the neuropsych eval would be a good thing to pursue.

Thank you, this is helpful. 

[Storygirl]

Welcome! And I understand your concerns. There are many red flags for dyslexia in your description, but what you describe could be a combination of ADHD and low working memory. I wouldn't say that her interest in language and early interest in knowing what letters were at the beginning and end of words would be things that would indicate that dyslexia is not there. People with dyslexia can be interested in reading and books, even if they are not good at it. Often dyslexics can't rhyme (my dd had trouble with rhyming at age 4, and that's when I began to suspect), but it's not a hard and fast rule that all dyslexics have trouble with rhyming.

The neuropsych should be able to determine whether it is dyslexia or not, and I think it's a positive step to sort it out now instead of waiting until later on. My pediatrician was not helpful with the dyslexia issue, either.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I see very many things in your post that suggest ADHD. I think a severe case of inattentive ADHD combined with low working memory could present as you describe, even if there is no true phonological disability (dyslexia).

I agree with Peter Pan that you can use materials designed for dyslexia even before you have an official diagnosis. They will help to remediate the symptoms, regardless of the diagnosis.  I However, you might want to wait to start those until after you've had the evaluation. That's a judgement call, but I will say that DD13 did poorly on the CTOPP before she had OG tutoring, and after a year of it, she passed the CTOPP. How one scores on the CTOPP is an indicator of dyslexia, so I just think it's helpful to get that first testing done before remediation begins.

But it also depends on how long you have to wait for the appointment. We had a six week wait (I think) for one neuropsych, but for others we had to wait six months or more. If it's a long wait, you might not want to put off starting the intervention.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Storygirl

[Megbo]

No, you aren't overthinking things. Your daughter is a bright, articulate child who has received consistent, explicit phonics instruction. The fact that she is having so much difficulty learning to read is definitely worth investigating, and I think you're making the right decision to pursue a neuropsych evaluation.  

2 hours ago, Jennifer said:

From the time she could talk well, she has had very good phonemic awareness.

It has never seemed like her reading ability is what it should be, given her interest and background, and the explicit phonics

She does not seem to have much visual memory. For example, if I had a penny for every time I heard /t/   /h/    /e/ . . . . it took several hundred times of reading this word for her to recognize the /th/, much less recognize the whole word.

But it still takes so many times decoding a word to seem to recognize it at all.

She doesn't seem to reverse letters when she is reading, but does when writing (b, d, p, etc).

Don't know if it matters, but probably 3 years ago, I printed out the RAN color sheets (I think that is what they are called?) that someone posted here. She did very poorly on them, but with practice has improved.

there is just something nagging at me that it is harder than it should be. Every single thing has been taught explicitly and practiced over and over.

If she decodes a word and it appears again 3 words later, it usually has to be completely decoded again from beginning to end.

 

What you're describing sounds exactly like "orthographic dyslexia" or "dyseidetic dyslexia", which is caused primarily by a deficit in orthographic processing. It isn't exactly visual memory, but is specifically how the visual system forms, stores, and recalls written words.

[Jentrovert]

11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Welcome to the boards. I'm glad you're out of lurking! I see you're in Oklahoma. My dd is there this summer. 

She probably didn't expect to need rain boots, lol. Don't know where she is (I'm in southeastern part of the state), but the rain has been crazy lately. On the plus side, it's still cool!

This doesn't seem like a very satisfactory outcome. You might need a 2nd opinion to sort that out. Was she tested for retained reflexes? Has she had an OT eval?  My dd's eyes were still persnickity, even after VT, and she wears progressives, has for several years now. They can do bifocal contacts, all sorts of magical stuff. But it's possible (with my dd, with yours) that some retained reflexes are behind the continued problems. My dd has some praxis, not enough to get her a DCD diagnosis but enough that it's there and pesky. She's also pretty low tone. 

Ok, it's possible she has really poor visual memory, but again it might be time for a 2nd opinion. They could update the visual processing testing and decide based on data whether it's a visual memory problem. If it is, the optometrist should have been treating it. But if it's not, then it's dyslexia. That's pretty classic dyslexia. My dd had exceptionally poor visual memory before her VT, and she learned to read just fine. She needed some fluency work, but she didn't do that. What you're describing is what my dyslexic ds does. So I'd be more inclined to assume you've got a very bright dyslexic and get some further evaluations. Update your visual processing testing, sure, but it sounds like it's time for psych evals to do the whole gig and check for dyslexia.

Yes, she was tested for retained reflexes as part of the vision therapy. I do remember doing exercises here at home with her (the office is almost 2.5 hours away from us, we went in person every 2 weeks and did/do therapy here at home) However, she started the therapy when she was . . . let's see . . . 3 years old. And some of the testing wasn't complete due to her age. So (and I don't know why in the world I haven't done this) I think I need to have all her testing there repeated. She had an OT eval when she was about 2 and a half. We had taken my son to the office for an eval for feeding issues and while we were there an OT noticed something with her coordination. She had therapy for a few months and improved. Around this time we also started her in gymnastics, which seemed to also help a lot. (It was actually this OT who noticed her eye tracking/vision issues and who recommended the dev opt) She is incredibly strong, awesome core strength.

Yes, that's classic dyslexia.

I think when you get the full psych evals for the dyslexia she'll also turn out to have some ADHD and low processing speed. Now if you use a neuropsych, they can do some additional testing for things like word retrieval. You could also do that through a SLP if you want. The SLP can run the CTOPP, do narrative language testing, etc. etc. If the SLP specializes in literacy, they'll have tests like this. 

I wondered about an SLP, I will check into this.

Oh who knows. Math processes in two sides of the brain, conceptual on one side, language and number sense on the other. So dyslexics will sometimes have math be crunchy too, just because there's that affect in language parts of the brain. Could be that, could be she'll get an SLD diagnosis. Could be some APD and maybe the air conditioner was on or something. You're just going to get some evals and let things sift out. Does she have any problems understanding in background noise or complain of it being hard to hear in certain environments?

Haha, you've been learning a lot here on the boards! So yes, that was a good move getting her hearing checked. So you know it's not her actual ability to hear, which whittles it down to processing speed (which is pretty glaringly an issue) and how she processes. The modulation issues are a little more concerning. You could see what happens if you work on the ADHD. You might do some bodywork and self-awareness exercises and see what happens. Maybe she's kinda busy and not noticing, sigh. Like try for a book of "games for ADHD" and that kind of thing from the library. I think I have one. Yup, it's Boost Emotional Intelligence but it's targeting gr5-8. Just see what your library has. Won't cost anything and it will be a nice together break between your harder stuff. You just want to be modulating, fast/slow, loud/quiet, and building some awareness on that. There's the outside chance that it's something else (progressive hearing loss, autism, other things), but I'd just start with the simplest, most likely explanations. Our local dyslexia school brings in quite a bit with social thinking, so it's not overkill to be approaching it that way. Just start somewhere and see what happens. If she's being loud like that and you go to non-verbals (pointing) and drop language entirely, does she modulate down? Or if she's loud and you whisper, does she come down? 

At the time she had the hearing test, I asked the audiologist about APD and at that time she was too young to test. Yes, although she doesn't complain of it being hard to hear, it is definitely worse when, say, the tv is on or the lawn mower next door. We've done bodywork and self-awareness stuff in the past, and although she doesn't particularly like it, I think she'd be agreeable to doing some again. No, she doesn't usually modulate down if I go to non-verbals or whisper. It's like she doesn't realize it at all until we say something. 

Is she doing anything with music? How's that going? My ds has gotten nice progress with music therapy, so I'm all a fan of getting them into anything music.

She loves music and singing. We've done quite a bit over the years with simple things, Music With Little Mozarts, lots of movement and music. She and her brother are learning piano now; I (used to) play a little so I've been able to follow along and we've all enjoyed it. She doesn't have quite the rhythm her brother does, but her imitation indicates that she's hearing rhythm and melody without a problem.

Ok, so that's a good deal! So yes, neuropsych and also consider an SLP eval. If you find an SLP who specializes in literacy, they can look at the reading, narrative language development, word retrieval, screen her auditory processing, all sorts of things. It will be immensely practical, have a shorter waiting list than the neuropsych, and probably turn out things you can do immediately.

It sounds like you should go ahead and do the screenings for Barton to see whether you're looking at LIPS/FIS or Barton 1 or what. Would you want to do the intervention yourself or use a tutor? 

I would want to do it myself. I actually printed out the screenings last week and was kind of putting it off for some reason. 

Don't feel bashful about moving her up to materials meant for intervention. Lots of things are good, but she's clearly going to need a higher tier of intervention to get things clicking. So you're wanting Barton, Wilson, OG with a certified tutor, whatever. Don't feel like you have to pussyfoot around on that. Strong materials can clean this up and get her moving forward. She's clearly very bright. 

Thank you, I needed this.

Does she have any strengths or things she enjoys doing? Remember to work on those as you go forward.

Yes, I have been thinking on this too, I will need to pay more attention to these things and not focus solely on the issues.

 

Thank you so much for all of this. Even though it would have been nice to hear that I'm overblowing things, it's actually somewhat of a relief to have some validation that I'm not crazy for thinking some of this stuff isn't quite right. I will go about getting neuropsych and SLP evals then, as it seems that is the next thing. Actually, what I probably could effect first is to redo all her developmental optometrist testing. I could kick myself for not doing that already.

[Jentrovert]

35 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Welcome! And I understand your concerns. There are many red flags for dyslexia in your description, but what you describe could be a combination of ADHD and low working memory. I wouldn't say that her interest in language and early interest in knowing what letters were at the beginning and end of words would be things that would indicate that dyslexia is not there. People with dyslexia can be interested in reading and books, even if they are not good at it. Often dyslexics can't rhyme (my dd had trouble with rhyming at age 4, and that's when I began to suspect), but it's not a hard and fast rule that all dyslexics have trouble with rhyming.

The neuropsych should be able to determine whether it is dyslexia or not, and I think it's a positive step to sort it out now instead of waiting until later on. My pediatrician was not helpful with the dyslexia issue, either.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I see very many things in your post that suggest ADHD. I think a severe case of inattentive ADHD combined with low working memory could present as you describe, even if there is no true phonological disability (dyslexia).

I agree with Peter Pan that you can use materials designed for dyslexia even before you have an official diagnosis. They will help to remediate the symptoms, regardless of the diagnosis.  I However, you might want to wait to start those until after you've had the evaluation. That's a judgement call, but I will say that DD13 did poorly on the CTOPP before she had OG tutoring, and after a year of it, she passed the CTOPP. How one scores on the CTOPP is an indicator of dyslexia, so I just think it's helpful to get that first testing done before remediation begins.

But it also depends on how long you have to wait for the appointment. We had a six week wait (I think) for one neuropsych, but for others we had to wait six months or more. If it's a long wait, you might not want to put off starting the intervention.

 

Thank you! Yes, I agree. And those are good points about testing/remediation that I hadn't considered. I'll keep that in mind as I find out time frames on evals.

ETA: I was thinking on this more . . . when she was younger, ADHD was definitely on my radar. Still has been, but the hyperactivity part has seemed to calm down. She does move nearly constantly; she even moves a lot in her sleep. I have a difficult time sleeping with her. (She does fine sleeping alone, I mean at hotels, etc.) 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Jennifer

[Jentrovert]

25 minutes ago, Megbo said:

No, you aren't overthinking things. Your daughter is a bright, articulate child who has received consistent, explicit phonics instruction. The fact that she is having so much difficulty learning to read is definitely worth investigating, and I think you're making the right decision to pursue a neuropsych evaluation.  

 

What you're describing sounds exactly like "orthographic dyslexia" or "dyseidetic dyslexia", which is caused primarily by a deficit in orthographic processing. It isn't exactly visual memory, but is specifically how the visual system forms, stores, and recalls written words.

 

Thank you! Would the testing at the developmental optometrist likely reveal this? Not a dx of dyslexia, I mean, but the deficit in orthographic processing?

[PeterPan]

49 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I agree with Peter Pan that you can use materials designed for dyslexia even before you have an official diagnosis. They will help to remediate the symptoms, regardless of the diagnosis.  I However, you might want to wait to start those until after you've had the evaluation. That's a judgement call, but I will say that DD13 did poorly on the CTOPP before she had OG tutoring, and after a year of it, she passed the CTOPP. How one scores on the CTOPP is an indicator of dyslexia, so I just think it's helpful to get that first testing done before remediation begins.

Oh yes, absolutely. I would want that baseline CTOPP before moving to intervention materials. I would do the *screening* for Barton, just for your information, get the CTOPP any way you can (SLP, tutor, psych, etc.) and get the full neuropsych eval when you can. If you can find an SLP who specializes in literacy, they may have a much shorter wait than the neuropsych, making them a great resource for getting that baseline testing done. Around here popular neuropsychs can have a 3-6 month wait. 

[Jentrovert]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Oh yes, absolutely. I would want that baseline CTOPP before moving to intervention materials. I would do the *screening* for Barton, just for your information, get the CTOPP any way you can (SLP, tutor, psych, etc.) and get the full neuropsych eval when you can. If you can find an SLP who specializes in literacy, they may have a much shorter wait than the neuropsych, making them a great resource for getting that baseline testing done. Around here popular neuropsychs can have a 3-6 month wait. 

 

Gotcha. That makes sense. Do you have any advice on choosing a neuropsych? Of course, I'll have it narrowed down some in that not all will accept Medicaid, but I started looking at their provider list today and there are a lot. 

I'm off to bed now, but greatly appreciate everyone's replies so far and will be back later in the day tomorrow. Thank you!

[PeterPan]

30 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

She probably didn't expect to need rain boots, lol. Don't know where she is (I'm in southeastern part of the state), but the rain has been crazy lately. On the plus side, it's still cool!

Oh that explains it! Yes, I thought she was going to spend the summer sweating to death (she's near OKC) and instead she keeps saying it's fine. Well that explains it. 

32 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

It's like she doesn't realize it at all until we say something. 

Then I like your idea to repeat some of the testing. It was done when she was much younger, so updating everything would be good. It will be a hassle, but I'd literally update everything if you can--OT, SLP, audiologist (and get that screening for APD!), etc. Yes, she could have some things that are more apparent now, as she's gotten older. 

Total aside, but the SLDT is kinda crap at this age. I don't know about the CAPS. My ds "passed" the SLDT at 6-ish, I forget, and he's now labeled ASD2, lol. Pragmatics is just really crunchy to test at this age. They can run an ADOS and be more definite, sure. But the pragmatics, not so great. You could see if the SLP has the CASL pragmatics. It was pretty enlightening and showed things that are very much the way my ds rolls. Our ps didn't give a rip about those scores, but it would be a test the SLP is more likely to have. Neuropsychs often do just screeners like using the pragmatics portion of the CELF, so having something longer and more standardized can be really good.

Just start unpacking it I think. Refresh evals, keep looking at things, knocking on doors. She may take a while to unwrap. Definitely more will be obvious now than was obvious at 3. It sounds like you've been very in-tune with her and were picking stuff up, and you're right the data shows parents pick up on stuff way earlier than the tests. So don't stop trusting that gut and what you think you're seeing.

37 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

She doesn't have quite the rhythm her brother does, but her imitation indicates that she's hearing rhythm and melody without a problem.

Yeah rhythm is going to be your EF piece. EF=executive function will be affected in ADHD. So it's not shocking that's happening. You could use the music to work on the loud/soft. You could look into some social thinking materials. She's at a GREAT age to do We Thinkers 1 and 2 from SocialThinking.com. You can also do some metronome work to hit on that EF.

25 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Would the testing at the developmental optometrist likely reveal this?

So our dev. optom place runs a pretty standard visual processing test. I forget the name. It's a spiral book and the tech just works the dc through it. It's part of that full eval you said you need to update. I think I would roll with that. If those numbers are poor, then they're going to tell you if they're poor in a way that the VT can improve. 

31 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

when she was younger, ADHD was definitely on my radar. Still has been, but the hyperactivity part has seemed to calm down.

Girl ADHD is sneaky and can present differently from what you expect. She definitely sounds very ADHD. The question is just how many other bonus things are going on and to what degree. 

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Do you have any advice on choosing a neuropsych?

Well unfortunately I've used a lot of psychs and had one that really ranked in the bad experience category. Ironically, that np is exceptionally well-regarded around here. I can only say that your biggest clue is how well you can talk with them. If they come across like arrogant donkeys and aren't listening, that's what they'll be. 

Personally I think the np profession is over-rated. You're likely to get way more practical, ACTIONABLE information from the SLP eval and that SLP will charge probably half the rate per hour and not be nearly so arrogant. So, you know, I guess just go with your gut. But if they bowl you over, don't listen, and are obnoxious, don't use 'em. Ask upfront what tests they'll run. You want to hear things like IQ, achievement, ctopp, and screenings for anxiety, ADHD, spectrum (hey, why not), dyspraxia (yes, a neuropsych can do this), etc. Ask them if they have anything for pragmatics or narrative language, just to get their goat.

Only way to learn is to make some mistakes. Just go with your gut and you'll be great.

[Megbo]

6 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Thank you! Would the testing at the developmental optometrist likely reveal this? Not a dx of dyslexia, I mean, but the deficit in orthographic processing?

 

No, the tests at the developmental optometrist did not pick up on my son's orthographic processing problems. I think he may be the only kid ever tested who wasn't recommended for vision therapy, lol. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Megbo said:

 

No, the tests at the developmental optometrist did not pick up on my son's orthographic processing problems. I think he may be the only kid ever tested who wasn't recommended for vision therapy, lol. 

My ds has dyslexia and I just had them do the full gig (visual processing, convergence, tracking, the fully $350 exam) to make absolutely positively sure there was no vision element causing his issues. Zilcho. Well that's not true, his visual motor integration is weak, which is why he is still having trouble with handwriting, but they considered that an OT gig, not their deal. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

9 hours ago, Megbo said:

 

No, the tests at the developmental optometrist did not pick up on my son's orthographic processing problems. I think he may be the only kid ever tested who wasn't recommended for vision therapy, lol. 

I've had two kids tested for vision therapy, and neither one needed it.

Now, I went to a COVD recommended by my pediatrician, because he trusted her only; he had the opinion that others would always find something that needed therapy and so thought they were taking advantage. So we went to someone unusual, perhaps. She worked in a hospital instead of doing private practice.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Storygirl

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, Megbo said:

 

No, the tests at the developmental optometrist did not pick up on my son's orthographic processing problems. I think he may be the only kid ever tested who wasn't recommended for vision therapy, lol. 

Have you done any interventions for orthographic processing? Just curious how to go about that 🙂

[Storygirl]

For the OP, no testing vision, even through a developmental optometrist, is not adequate for determining or ruling out dyslexia.

In case you have a private dyslexia school in your wider area, you can often get a free reading screening there. It's not a bad idea. But it's also not sufficient for a diagnosis. We had a dyslexia school tell us that DD13 did fine on their testing, because she scored in the 25th percentile of whatever 10 minute test they were giving, and so she couldn't have dyslexia, because if it was dyslexia, she would have been 24th percentile or lower. This was nonsense, and I challenged him; it was a frustrating conversation. And then when we got our neuropsych results later on, the NP said he would classify her phonological disability as severe. So that dyslexia school test was ridiculous, or the person running it was not the greatest.

So I always suggest that people can see if there is a school that runs reading screenings, but I also say to understand that it is not full and complete testing and will not produce a diagnosis. We moved and DD13 did attend a dyslexia school later on, but a different one. The one we attended uses the CTOPP as their screening test, I believe. The CTOPP scores would be valuable for you to have, and if you could get them for free, that would be worthwhile. You can call any such school and ask what screening tests they use. There are not dyslexia schools in all areas, but if you have one, it's good to know that they may offer this help.

[Storygirl]

Oh, one reason that I think that DD13 passed that first dyslexia screening test is that I had worked so hard with her at home. She took that screener in third grade, so I had already spent four plus years on reading with her while homeschooling. Her dyslexia was not yet remediated, but she was a good word guesser with stellar comprehension, which glossed over her decoding issues when someone didn't know what to look for. Her spelling, on the other hand, was always terrible.

I used a variety of phonics programs with her during those early years, including a couple that are sometimes recommended on the boards for dyslexics to try, but I was not able to crack through the dyslexia. What finally helped her was getting OG tutoring and then OG instruction at her school. So I am a big proponent of OG programs. Barton is the one most recommended on the boards for homeschooling parents to try, and it's what I would have tried if we had continued to homeschool.

My reason for sharing my personal experiences is to show that someone with dyslexia who has had intensive instruction may/should do better on the diagnostic testing than they would have before intervention.

[EKS]

Agreeing with the others.  It sounds like dyslexia in a bright child who has had a lot of explicit phonics instruction.

[kbutton]

She sounds like my son. 2e dyslexia (took forever to diagnose because he had good phonics instruction), dyscalculia, ADHD, CAPD (temporal processing is his biggest issue—he doesn’t take in speech at the typical rate), oral motor issues (in his case probably from connective tissue disorder), coordination issues, developmental vision issues...

 

[PeterPan]

16 minutes ago, kbutton said:

She sounds like my son. 2e dyslexia (took forever to diagnose because he had good phonics instruction), dyscalculia, ADHD, CAPD (temporal processing is his biggest issue—he doesn’t take in speech at the typical rate), oral motor issues (in his case probably from connective tissue disorder), coordination issues, developmental vision issues...

 

Aw shucks, you mean people can't say just one label and stop? LOL I know, it's always astonishing when you dig in. And think about how it took you a while to unwrap that. Some of my dd's evals were this past summer at 19. It's not necessarily all OBVIOUS initially. 

[ktgrok]

 

16 hours ago, Mainer said:

Have you done any interventions for orthographic processing? Just curious how to go about that 🙂

Dyslexia remediation should do that. Barton level 1 helps actually rewire their brain, it's crazy. 

[Kanin]

6 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Dyslexia remediation should do that. Barton level 1 helps actually rewire their brain, it's crazy. 

That's what I thought, I just wish there was more specifically for orthographic processing. Some of my students have an unusual presentation of average phonological skills, with super low orthographic memory. Guess we just keep the nose to the grindstone 🙂

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, Mainer said:

That's what I thought, I just wish there was more specifically for orthographic processing. Some of my students have an unusual presentation of average phonological skills, with super low orthographic memory. Guess we just keep the nose to the grindstone 🙂

I always let these subtype dyslexia terms roll off me, sigh. I think sometimes the answer is really basic: do it more and do it more ways till your student gets it. Like I've not made it a secret that Barton (straight, alone) couldn't get my ds where he needed to be. It was a great starting point, but we were always doing it more ways, more times, more modalities, more, more till it clicked.

I think I've shared a pdf in the past describing sorta what we did. We merged LIPS and Barton to give us more ways to process and manipulate and connect. So if you made a list of every tool you could think of (air write, back, sand tray, tracing sandpaper letters, with magnets, with blank tiles, with the LIPS faces, keep going), you name it, we did it. Every word, every sound, every syllable, every position, every combination. And that was through all of Barton 1, 2, and into 3 maybe? I forget. It was not like we could drop that extensive connection making and multi-sensory input. We couldn't expect it to generalize. So you get a kid with no generalization issues, and that's pretty much what Barton is assuming. She's like well we did it here, this way, with this manipulative, so now you should be able to apply the skill in another scenario with different letters, and I'm like NO HE CAN'T, lol. 

We also had to do WAY more fluency work than Barton ever seems to describe. Flashcards for the phonograms drilled multiple times a day both ways with all those tools. 

I don't think it's that you need a different tool or a magic tool or something you don't already know. I think sometimes it's that you have to take it farther and do much more than even seems reasonable. 

So then lets get cynical. It's not like it holds anyway. It's like sand on the beach, in and out with the tide. So you do that Herculean effort enough to get them reading and then let it DROP. But yes, I think it can take much more than people expect. I mean that's why AAR is not tier 3, kwim? That's why custom training exists. 

I think there are things that are much more important, like that sound thought to motor planning. Super important. There's a lot of evidence on WRITING our spelling as we learn to read and it's a known need, even for dyslexics. You notice that was hardly on my list. Barton includes it, but it wasn't reality for my student. But certainly that could/should be in that list of ways. For my ds I'm trying to get it for typing, like think it and move a finger. That's rocket science for him. We talk about visual motor integration, but typing is even one step more abstract because we're doing sound to motor, sigh. So lots of connections to be made, lots of work. I tried to be very systematic, increasing the pool of phonograms slowly, making sure he had them all the ways, with all the connections. 

[Megbo]

23 hours ago, Mainer said:

Have you done any interventions for orthographic processing? Just curious how to go about that 🙂

I've only realized in the last few months how much my son struggles with orthographic processing (it is in his report from two years ago, but the psych really focused on the phonological side of things), so we haven't directly targeted it yet. We did the first two levels of Barton last year before he spent this year in public school, so we're reviewing those levels now and plan to continue with Barton. It seems that the higher levels do address orthographic processing explicitly enough for most students.

Seeing Stars and Glass Analysis are two other programs I've looked into that seem like they would be appropriate interventions for orthographic processing. Glass Analysis is recommended in one of David Kilpatrick's books and seems like something we can add to Barton if necessary. 

[PeterPan]

Seeing Stars is applying visualization. You can do this as one of the steps before air writing, spelling aloud, anything. It's pretty common advice to have the dc visualize and then spell it aloud backward. 

To me, if a dc is having a problem with visualization, I'm going back to the VT, developmental vision question. My dd with glitched visualization had significant developmental vision problems and my ds who flies through VT testing can visualize easily.

Edited June 14, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

So Shriners comes out *against* the use of subtypes of dyslexia, explains why, says orthographic is exposure not genetics, says orthographic difficulties rarely occur in isolation, etc. Like I said, I think the things people are describing are par for the course with dyslexia and the issue is using canned curriculum instead of looking at the kid and stepping up to the level of exposure (modalities, ways, frequencies) the kid will need for it to click in a useful, durable way. That's why people who do this well get paid $80-125 an hour around here, because we have to step it up. 

https://scottishritehospital.org/getattachment/f0c264a7-4022-4ec2-bfee-fc57ba13b157/Orthographic-Processing.pdf  

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

So Shriners comes out *against* the use of subtypes of dyslexia

I'm not too fussed about "subtypes" of dyslexia, or even identifying a reading difficulty as dyslexia at all. Whatever it's called (or not called), you just gotta roll with it. I just haven't seen as many kids with average or above average phonological skills, and below average orthographic skills.

I do think drilling flashcards for phonograms, and also for word parts (un, an, in), etc, is really helpful for the brain to identify common word parts. The Seeing Stars kit has cards like that, but you could also make your own.

Sorry to hijack the thread... I should start my own 🙂 

 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Mainer said:

I do think drilling flashcards for phonograms, and also for word parts (un, an, in), etc, is really helpful for the brain to identify common word parts. The Seeing Stars kit has cards like that, but you could also make your own.

I used my WRTR cards from ages ago. You're right, I didn't really think about what was missing from Barton, because I just had the pieces and did it. There must be kids who don't need all that jumping through hoops, 20k ways, but it sure wasn't mine, lol.

[Jentrovert]

On 6/12/2019 at 10:03 PM, PeterPan said:

It will be a hassle, but I'd literally update everything if you can--OT, SLP, audiologist (and get that screening for APD!), etc. Yes, she could have some things that are more apparent now, as she's gotten older. 

 

On 6/12/2019 at 10:03 PM, PeterPan said:

Just start unpacking it I think. Refresh evals, keep looking at things, knocking on doors. She may take a while to unwrap. Definitely more will be obvious now than was obvious at 3. It sounds like you've been very in-tune with her and were picking stuff up, and you're right the data shows parents pick up on stuff way earlier than the tests. So don't stop trusting that gut and what you think you're seeing.

 

Makes sense. Although I know there are definitely things I'm missing or interpreting incorrectly, I do have a measure of confidence that with evals and direction we can figure things out (at least to a reasonable degree - I'm not sure any of us are ever "figured out" completely! lol) I'm also, in a way, grateful that her difficult beginnings made us be more proactive than I think we might otherwise have been. Vision therapy, iLs, OT, hours upon hours of stuff at home that I never would have known about otherwise. I may eventually regret that I didn't pursue more evals earlier (I've been suspicious about working memory, processing speed, adhd, etc for quite some time, but since she kept improving I second-guessed myself. Upon reflection, the improvement may be because we've been doing what amounts to therapy in many areas, and I've hit a point where I've maybe taken it as far as I can without more direction.) But overall we've done the best we could and I will just have to be satisfied with that. 🙂 Like so much else in life. 

On 6/12/2019 at 10:18 PM, Megbo said:

I think he may be the only kid ever tested who wasn't recommended for vision therapy, lol. 

 

lol We'll soon be having my son do the whole testing too, and I told my husband I almost dread it because what are the chances he won't need it? And I dread making the 2.5 hour drive every 2 weeks. (Actually, I have a fair amount of trust that they won't have us do it if it's not needed. They've been very understanding about the distance. But, still. 😜)

On 6/13/2019 at 8:11 AM, Storygirl said:

The CTOPP scores would be valuable for you to have, and if you could get them for free, that would be worthwhile. You can call any such school and ask what screening tests they use. There are not dyslexia schools in all areas, but if you have one, it's good to know that they may offer this help.

 

This is good to know. We're at least 2 hours from everywhere, so I know we don't have a school near us, but I will check into what might be available to drive to.

On 6/13/2019 at 8:22 AM, Storygirl said:

My reason for sharing my personal experiences is to show that someone with dyslexia who has had intensive instruction may/should do better on the diagnostic testing than they would have before intervention.

 

This makes perfect sense. You also mentioned your dd being a good guesser with good comprehension, glossing over the decoding issues. If I were not right with her, looking at both what she is reading and where her eyes are going when she's doing it (like, say, if I sat in a different chair and just listened) I'm not sure I would recognize some of the issues she's having right now. She has listened to so many books read to her, that she knows what the next word(s) should be to sound right. If I let her, she would do perfectly well looking at the first letter of the word and guessing a word that makes sense and moving through to the next word she can actually read. She'd be very fluent doing this.

14 hours ago, kbutton said:

She sounds like my son. 2e dyslexia (took forever to diagnose because he had good phonics instruction), dyscalculia, ADHD, CAPD (temporal processing is his biggest issue—he doesn’t take in speech at the typical rate), oral motor issues (in his case probably from connective tissue disorder), coordination issues, developmental vision issues...

 

 

14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Aw shucks, you mean people can't say just one label and stop? LOL I know, it's always astonishing when you dig in. And think about how it took you a while to unwrap that. Some of my dd's evals were this past summer at 19. It's not necessarily all OBVIOUS initially. 

 

lol Good reminder for me, because I am very much a person who like to have things DONE and work from there. This will not be done quickly, or ever. I need to view it properly or I will end up getting discouraged.

10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Dyslexia remediation should do that. Barton level 1 helps actually rewire their brain, it's crazy. 

 

3 hours ago, Mainer said:

That's what I thought, I just wish there was more specifically for orthographic processing. Some of my students have an unusual presentation of average phonological skills, with super low orthographic memory. Guess we just keep the nose to the grindstone 🙂

 

I've been wondering, what exactly is the difference in Barton and something like we currently use (LOE)? I'm not at all resistant to using Barton, just curious. I have a hard time imagining it being MORE explicit . . . on the other hand, there have been many times I've added additional explaining or made things even more incremental in LOE, so maybe I can see it. Or is it more the WAY it's presented? The pace? 

[Jentrovert]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I'm not too fussed about "subtypes" of dyslexia, or even identifying a reading difficulty as dyslexia at all. Whatever it's called (or not called), you just gotta roll with it. I just haven't seen as many kids with average or above average phonological skills, and below average orthographic skills.

I do think drilling flashcards for phonograms, and also for word parts (un, an, in), etc, is really helpful for the brain to identify common word parts. The Seeing Stars kit has cards like that, but you could also make your own.

Sorry to hijack the thread... I should start my own 🙂 

 

 

I tend to agree. This thinking may be partly why I asked the question about Barton above. We've already added in lots more fluency practice than LOE calls for, and I wonder if just rolling with what she needs is sufficient, like the recommendations on the last page of that article. (Still getting evals, etc. and still not opposed to Barton, just mostly talking and exploring here)

From the article: "With relative strengths in phonological processing and weaknesses in orthographic processing, individuals with “orthographic dyslexia” are recognized by their ability to read regular words better than irregular words, reduced sight vocabulary, slow reading rate, spelling errors that are phonologically correct but do not follow the conventions of written English."

This does sound a lot like my dd. She loves to write stories, etc. and always spells phonetically correctly but rarely is correct spelling.

This: "Research has also shown that difficulties attributable to orthographic processing, and related variability in naming speed, are largely the result of limitations in the environment, reading experience and print exposure. . . . .The pattern of orthographic deficits is frequently the result of insufficient exposure to written language, sometimes is present following intensive phonological training and rarely is produced by a biologically-based neurocognitive difference. Genetics plays a greater role in phonological processing; and environment, especially reading experience, is more influential in orthographic processing."

Maybe? It is a hard thing to consider that environment caused this . . . it is true that her exposure to written words has been much less than oral . . . but isn't that true of everyone? Perhaps the vision issues have resulted in an insufficient exposure? idk.

Driving home yesterday, she started a game of segmenting words. Her brother turned it into segmenting phrases ("ok, now do: Two hundred trees blowing in the wind"). She segmented whole phrases perfectly, and told me (after silently counting) how many in each phrase. 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Jennifer

[Storygirl]

Well, take heart, because you are doing so many things right!! And it's going to really benefit her.

I was convinced that DD13 had dyslexia by the time she was five and suspected it at age 4, but I had no clue what to do about it. I didn't even know how to get it diagnosed. I had never even heard of a neuropsychologist or that you could get private testing for LDs, and I didn't know anyone in the community to ask, after the pediatrician wasn't much help. The dyslexia school told me that they weren't concerned after giving her their bogus screener. My MIL who had been a reading teacher for 20 plus years didn't have a clue about dyslexia and just said, "some people don't learn to read using phonics, so try something else." Yeah, right!! I hadn't found the WTM boards yet, and I didn't know anyone else who had a kid with reading troubles. I called the school to inquire about evaluations, and I found them reluctant to work with a homeschooler (I was just starting to educate myself on the laws back then). I was searching, searching, and I felt at a loss. And teaching her during those early years was hard, hard, hard, but she made enough progress that she could fool people into thinking that she was able to read (even the guy at that dyslexia school).

Then I found the LC boards, and I finally had someone in real life (after private school entrance testing) tell me that they thought she had dyslexia, and I started to make some connections with people who knew things, and we got her evaluated. And then I learned about OG and found a tutor. But by that time she was 10.

So you are really doing well to be identifying and finding ways to help your daughter when she is only 7. Early intervention is a big, big plus.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

It sounds like your daughter has had a lot of exposure to the written word, and I would just discount that aspect of the description. I have found over the years that there are always things in those kind of definitions that don't fit my kids. I tend to niggle away at it in my mind and try to figure it out, but the reality is that everyone is different.

Let me tell you, if all children could avoid reading disabilities by being in a literature rich home with lots of exposure to books and reading, then my kids would have had no trouble with reading. I worked in bookstores and libraries and was an English major and have a master's degree in children's literature, of all things. I read to my kids for hours daily from the time they were infants.

And, yup, two out of four have reading disabilities. And they don't like to read, either. That's just how it is sometimes.

So I wouldn't dwell too much on the biological versus environmental thing. You didn't do anything to create this issue; her brain is just wired differently for reading, and it doesn't really matter what caused that. I don't know about orthographic dyslexia, because DD13 has the phonological disability, but I imagine that the intervention would be similar. Those things listed in the above definition would still be helped by an OG program, for example.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Storygirl

[Jentrovert]

My goodness, what a time you had! I feel very fortunate to have found these boards; they are not only a source of direction, but inspiration as well. You're right, I ought not to dwell on the environmental thing. I've read-aloud to them from the time they joined our home (in her case, this was at 16 months old), we have hundreds of books (probably more, I'm frankly too afraid to do an actual count) tucked into every space in our small house, and she's loved looking through them on her own since before she could even identify any letters. There is not one thing I could have done differently in that regard. 

I'm over here fretting about not identifying something earlier, and my husband is thrilled we'll be able to intervene so early. He learned to read on his own when he was around 11, after being left to flounder in both school and "homeschool". (Actually, he is unable to read well phonetically, he memorized words by sight, by listening to recordings and following along in print.)

Thank you for the encouragement!

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

I've been wondering, what exactly is the difference in Barton and something like we currently use (LOE)?

Have you done the Barton pretest? You might start there. LOE is fine instruction, but I don't think it was ever intended for the intervention market. Barton is going to be more detailed, leave nothing to chance, and spend more time at each stage. It's going to take 9 levels to do what a more typical program will do in 3-4. It's going to do more with phonological processing, because dyslexia is at the core a phonological processing disorder. It would be OVERKILL for a more typical dc, and that's why it will be a good fit for the dc with dyslexia. 

The LOE author was originally an SWR person, trained by Sanseri. It's really in that vein of good stuff, just like SWR, WRTR, AAS/AAR, etc. are all good stuff with solid underpinnings. It's not like we're saying it's bad, just that it makes assumptions and goes less in-depth in areas where kids with disabilities are going to need more time, more depth. 

Same gig with RightStart math. I used RightStart with my dd, repped for them, great stuff. My ds came along, and he looked at me like I was speaking greek. RS was fine, but my ds needed so much more depth. I use Ronit Bird with him, and it's not so different. It just spends way more time on tedious little steps that kids wthout an SLD don't need. 

This is why materials are labeled for tiers of intervention. Barton is tier 3. Going with custom like OG or Wilson, same gig, a tier 3 intervention. You've already done very good, explicit materials, but stepping up to a tier 3 approach will make a big difference.

[PeterPan]

53 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Driving home yesterday, she started a game of segmenting words. Her brother turned it into segmenting phrases ("ok, now do: Two hundred trees blowing in the wind"). She segmented whole phrases perfectly, and told me (after silently counting) how many in each phrase. 

What a little eager beaver! This is adorable. It shows she wants to learn and will do well stepping up to materials that fit her need for intervention. Right now she's being left to guess and figure out on her own things Barton or another tier 3 intervention (OG or Wilson with a tutor, whatever) will make explicit. She will make faster progress with better materials.

My ds reads exceptionally well, but I didn't screw around. I already owned WRTR, SWR, AAS1-6, HTTS, you name it, and I was like nope we're going to go all the way, get the best stuff, get this going.

If free is your pricepoint, the MA Rooney foundation has free OG manuals. There's no reason not to bump up to a method meant for dyslexia. 

https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss  Here's the student screening. Doesn't take long, free.

[PeterPan]

14 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

my husband is thrilled we'll be able to intervene so early. He learned to read on his own when he was around 11, after being left to flounder in both school and "homeschool". (Actually, he is unable to read well phonetically, he memorized words by sight, by listening to recordings and following along in print.)

Oh my! Well throw 'em together and teach them both with Barton!! It will make your dd feel like a rock star, hehe. And like I said, if buying Barton isn't realistic, you can get that manual from the MA Rooney people, get training through a local reading tutor place, try Shriner's, lots of paths. Some states offer disability scholarships with an IEP.

Dyslexia absolutely has a genetic component. I've posted studies in the past, and you can easily google and find more, where they list about 12 genes that are connected to dyslexia and show which part of phonological processing each affects. So it's really not coincidence that your dh has these challenges and your dd. 

Well keep us posted on how it goes! 

[Lecka]

I have an opinion about that article about orthographic.

I think that if you can’t read phonologically yet, then it makes sense to not be able to read orthgraphically either.

So if you are still in the process of remediation — you are still in the process of remediation.

These numbers do change with remediation.

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

I've been wondering, what exactly is the difference in Barton and something like we currently use (LOE)? I'm not at all resistant to using Barton, just curious. I have a hard time imagining it being MORE explicit . . . on the other hand, there have been many times I've added additional explaining or made things even more incremental in LOE, so maybe I can see it. Or is it more the WAY it's presented? The pace? 

It's everything. The breakdown of skills will be more incremental, more careful. More lists to practice each skill. More ways to work on each skill. More explicit lessons using the manipulatives to help them visualize and understand the skill. It will be so tedious a dc with no SLD would be left panting and impatient, and the kid with the SLD will eat it up. 

Barton also has an app. It's going to be such a breath of fresh air for you, given that you've been having to modify LOE. 

Remember too, your Barton stuff will have great resale value. You'll buy, do a level, sell, and use that money to buy the next level. If you buy new from Barton, buy an extra set or two of tiles so you can include the original set when you sell. The tiles are cumulative.

[Lecka]

This is very general — but imo a general difference between LOE and Barton is Barton is giving methods to maximize a lot of repetitions in a short time, and maximize student responses.  That’s something that can make a curriculum more intensive, that is not just the content or the order.  But these are things where you can adapt things, on one hand, but on the other hand, maybe can get some good ideas for how to adapt things.  I think it can depend on previous experience a lot, how easy it is to adapt things to provide more practice or a smaller step.  

That’s just a general thing, that is going to be a difference between a tier of instruction.  

[Jentrovert]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Oh my! Well throw 'em together and teach them both with Barton!! It will make your dd feel like a rock star, hehe. And like I said, if buying Barton isn't realistic, you can get that manual from the MA Rooney people, get training through a local reading tutor place, try Shriner's, lots of paths. Some states offer disability scholarships with an IEP.

Dyslexia absolutely has a genetic component. I've posted studies in the past, and you can easily google and find more, where they list about 12 genes that are connected to dyslexia and show which part of phonological processing each affects. So it's really not coincidence that your dh has these challenges and your dd. 

Well keep us posted on how it goes! 

lol Yes, I was thinking that my husband would enjoy it too. Actually, the kids aren't our bio children, but it's interesting how similar she is to my husband in lots of ways. 

[Jentrovert]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

It's everything. The breakdown of skills will be more incremental, more careful. More lists to practice each skill. More ways to work on each skill. More explicit lessons using the manipulatives to help them visualize and understand the skill. It will be so tedious a dc with no SLD would be left panting and impatient, and the kid with the SLD will eat it up. 

Barton also has an app. It's going to be such a breath of fresh air for you, given that you've been having to modify LOE. 

Remember too, your Barton stuff will have great resale value. You'll buy, do a level, sell, and use that money to buy the next level. If you buy new from Barton, buy an extra set or two of tiles so you can include the original set when you sell. The tiles are cumulative.

 

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

This is very general — but imo a general difference between LOE and Barton is Barton is giving methods to maximize a lot of repetitions in a short time, and maximize student responses.  That’s something that can make a curriculum more intensive, that is not just the content or the order.  But these are things where you can adapt things, on one hand, but on the other hand, maybe can get some good ideas for how to adapt things.  I think it can depend on previous experience a lot, how easy it is to adapt things to provide more practice or a smaller step.  

That’s just a general thing, that is going to be a difference between a tier of instruction.  

 

Thank you, this all makes sense. Ok, so you're saying the tiles are cumulative in that I will need to keep the tiles from each level, to use in the later levels, right? And since they don't sell individual parts, I need to get an extra set for each level so that I can sell a set of tiles for that level with it. Do I understand that correctly?

 

[Jentrovert]

I'm wondering if it would be wise, when I find someone, for me to go ahead and have my son evaluated as well? They are biologically half siblings and he is 6. He has less phonological awareness than she does (not quite as good with segmenting longer words, for example), and has been much slower about mastering things, both in reading and math. He also has less maturity and attention span (unless it's something he's interested in; I adapt almost all math to include vehicles, tractors in particular. :)) It's difficult to get him to even try something that is harder for him (just in general). At the same time, often he'll surprise me by demonstrating mastery of something just in everyday life, things that we may not have talked about more than a couple times (of course, he's often listening to dd's lessons too. I didn't teach him the single letter phonograms at all, he learned from listening to her). He's very bright, like she is. He seems to process things more quickly and make intuitive leaps that she doesn't. But he's much more wrapped up in whatever he's doing. 🙂  Is he of an age where something like the CTOPP would be useful, or is it better to allow a little more maturity? He's in Foundations B. He knows all his single letter phonograms, and a few 2 letter. He's not reading anything fluently yet, but can blend and segment short words reasonably well. DS draws a lot, and has recently been adding a few words to his drawings. They are spelled phonetically. He seems to be following the same development she did, just a lot later and a lot less interest (which doesn't seem to be unusual for boys?) He'll be having the full testing at the dev opt soon; I recently figured out that he may be seeing double when looking at words.

[Jentrovert]

I'll be giving her the Barton screening this weekend (she's been at my parent's). A question about the syllables . . . she likes to count syllables by putting her hand underneath her mouth instead of clapping. Does it need to be clapping only? Or is the point simply to get the correct number and it doesn't really matter how?

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

 

 

Thank you, this all makes sense. Ok, so you're saying the tiles are cumulative in that I will need to keep the tiles from each level, to use in the later levels, right? And since they don't sell individual parts, I need to get an extra set for each level so that I can sell a set of tiles for that level with it. Do I understand that correctly?

 

Yes, exactly. 

27 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

I'll be giving her the Barton screening this weekend (she's been at my parent's). A question about the syllables . . . she likes to count syllables by putting her hand underneath her mouth instead of clapping. Does it need to be clapping only? Or is the point simply to get the correct number and it doesn't really matter how?

Hmm, that's an interesting question. She's very bright if she has figured out that putting her hand under her jaw helps her could syllables. You could call Barton today (because she's lovely and will probably answer the phone, she's in CA, it's literally not too late) and see. What *I* would probably do is score it through first with clapping then do it again with a different pen color, similar words, but letting her do the jaw thing. 

Yes, the screening is partly about basic phonological processing, but it's also whether she has the working memory to hold her thoughts and motor plan and move the tiles and do all these tasks at once. That's why I'm thinking I'd probably do the test both ways, see what happens. It's a skill she's going to need for Barton. It might be that the other scores will make clear how to interpret this weakness. Like if she's struggling with other sections, then you know you're going into LIPS/FIS anyway. If she flies through the other sections, that's really different. So see it in some context too.

1 hour ago, Jennifer said:

I'm wondering if it would be wise, when I find someone, for me to go ahead and have my son evaluated as well?

Well the IDA is saying to get them diagnosed before 1st, meaning yes you're not crazy to think you could be seeing something. When is his vision eval? I would probably go ahead and do the screening right now (because it's free), get his vision checked, get him on the waitlist along with your dd, and just CANCEL if you decide 3-6 months from now or whatever that he doesn't need that eval.

Around here, there can be a wait, so that would be the most conservative approach.

Btw, I'm totally losing track here, but have we talked about using an SLP who specializes in literacy? That or a reading tutor, either could get you some baseline scores. The other thing is that on a 6 yo, yes they'll go ahead and diagnose that ADHD. I mean, that sorta sounds like what you're walking up to, lol. 

The thing with reading and boys and bloom time and all that is that we want to see the *phonological processing* coming along appropriately even if the reading is not. Like you say, reading has bloom time, attention issues, just a range of factors. My dd who scored excellently on the ACT, especially in anything reading, kinda FORGOT everything between K5 and 1st, lol. I remember some hairy times there. And now she's a stellar reader. But there were NO ISSUES WITH HER PHONOLOGICAL PROCESSING. She got a nice fat ADHD diagnosis around 10-12 (first an OT, then the psych) and is heterozygous for a dyslexia gene. It's not enough to get her a diagnosis and she reads FINE now. But sure she was crunchy then. And that's how I would discriminate it, looking at the phonological processing, getting that CTOPP done. You're definitely at the right time to ask those questions. 

Have you done an OT eval on him? You might find some retained reflexes or something too.Just in case you're bored and want more things to work on, haha. No seriously, retained reflexes, then VT, then eyeballs for school.  

[Jentrovert]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, exactly. 

Hmm, that's an interesting question. She's very bright if she has figured out that putting her hand under her jaw helps her could syllables. You could call Barton today (because she's lovely and will probably answer the phone, she's in CA, it's literally not too late) and see. What *I* would probably do is score it through first with clapping then do it again with a different pen color, similar words, but letting her do the jaw thing.

The jaw thing is from LOE, she didn't figure it out. She's not perfect at it, especially with longer words. She much prefers to watch MY hand and count. lol 

Yes, the screening is partly about basic phonological processing, but it's also whether she has the working memory to hold her thoughts and motor plan and move the tiles and do all these tasks at once. That's why I'm thinking I'd probably do the test both ways, see what happens. It's a skill she's going to need for Barton. It might be that the other scores will make clear how to interpret this weakness. Like if she's struggling with other sections, then you know you're going into LIPS/FIS anyway. If she flies through the other sections, that's really different. So see it in some context too.

Ok, that's what I was thinking. Looking at the test, I think she will have no difficulty with it phonologically. But for example, on Task C, I think she'll be able to repeat the sounds, build them with squares, but I suspect by the time she needs to touch and say them there will be several she won't remember by then. 

Well the IDA is saying to get them diagnosed before 1st, meaning yes you're not crazy to think you could be seeing something. When is his vision eval? I would probably go ahead and do the screening right now (because it's free), get his vision checked, get him on the waitlist along with your dd, and just CANCEL if you decide 3-6 months from now or whatever that he doesn't need that eval.

Good idea, I will do that.

Around here, there can be a wait, so that would be the most conservative approach.

Btw, I'm totally losing track here, but have we talked about using an SLP who specializes in literacy? That or a reading tutor, either could get you some baseline scores. The other thing is that on a 6 yo, yes they'll go ahead and diagnose that ADHD. I mean, that sorta sounds like what you're walking up to, lol. 

Yes, probably. sigh. lol And yes, you're right, you suggested the SLP specializing in literacy.  I've started looking for one; hopefully next week I'll hear back from a contact I had and get a recommendation for that and a neuropsych, and if not I emailed several places to start with and see what they have.

The thing with reading and boys and bloom time and all that is that we want to see the *phonological processing* coming along appropriately even if the reading is not. Like you say, reading has bloom time, attention issues, just a range of factors. My dd who scored excellently on the ACT, especially in anything reading, kinda FORGOT everything between K5 and 1st, lol. I remember some hairy times there. And now she's a stellar reader. But there were NO ISSUES WITH HER PHONOLOGICAL PROCESSING. She got a nice fat ADHD diagnosis around 10-12 (first an OT, then the psych) and is heterozygous for a dyslexia gene. It's not enough to get her a diagnosis and she reads FINE now. But sure she was crunchy then. And that's how I would discriminate it, looking at the phonological processing, getting that CTOPP done. You're definitely at the right time to ask those questions. 

Have you done an OT eval on him? You might find some retained reflexes or something too.Just in case you're bored and want more things to work on, haha. No seriously, retained reflexes, then VT, then eyeballs for school.  

Not recently; he had OT when he was 14 months old due to feeding issues (it was sensory, not that he COULDN'T eat food, he just hated it.) But I spoke with the ped on our recent visit about the fact that he holds back a lot, like when running he never runs all out. Gymnastics, he won't go all in even on moves he's done for years. My dd, now she's all in, everything she does. lol He is naturally more cautious than here, but it really seems like something more. The ped said she thought it would be PT instead of OT, and we have a PT eval scheduled next week. I'm still going to do an OT eval too, though. I think, like you, there may be retained reflexes and/or sensory stuff still going on. 

We have an appt with the dev opt week after next, and I'm hoping then to get the testing scheduled for both of them. I'm guessing the testing there will probably happen sometime in August. I'm pretty sure they include testing for retained reflexes too.

ETA: Re the phonological processing coming along, the thing that gives me most pause with him is that I don't see much actual progress. She has had periods before where it was clear to me she needed time to mature or just let things sink in. And that's what it was. But with him, maybe I'm not reading him as well, but I don't have that sense that he'll jump ahead when he matures more. When I look back at my notes from a year ago, he has basically the same skills now, very very little change. I can at least see some progress in other areas. Like in math, no, he's not super interested in sitting down and "doing math" but in our conversations and games I can see progress. In this area I just don't see much.

I think I see a spreadsheet in my future, along with a binder. lol Even typing all this out here, I re-read to make sure I'm not confusing the two of them and what they've each had done/not.

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Jennifer

[PeterPan]

36 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

The jaw thing is from LOE, she didn't figure it out. She's not perfect at it, especially with longer words. She much prefers to watch MY hand and count. lol 

Oh dear. Well see how she does on the screening. It's possible you'll need to do some FIS/LIPS first. I'm a little flabbergasted the curriculum taught it that way. I need to think about that. It's just not logically consistent. Jaw drop works for discriminating VOWELS, yes. But not for syllables. Think about it. If you say "needle" your jaw never drops. The first vowel is a retraction ("ee" =/E/) and the 2nd syllable is an "le" syllable and might drop very little or not at all for many people. Just not a reliable way to teach. That's where the skimpiness of the LOE author's qualifications come in, sigh. She had big vision but she's just not ready to bring what you need. 

So no, see what happens on the screener but it's definitely time to move on. There are a lot better tools out there. LIPS was developed by an SLP and is linguistically sound and correct for sound production. It's not going to launch you into stupidity.

40 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Ok, that's what I was thinking. Looking at the test, I think she will have no difficulty with it phonologically. But for example, on Task C, I think she'll be able to repeat the sounds, build them with squares, but I suspect by the time she needs to touch and say them there will be several she won't remember by then. 

Yup, and it's the combo of skills. So just see how she does. Barton will be happy to talk with you too, so feel free to call her with your results.

Fwiw, if you buy directly from Barton (rather than buying used), she's going to send you a link to the online training videos. There are dvds too, so it's not like buying used leaves you hanging. But if she flies through the screener and is ready for Barton 1, you can buy and get those training videos linked to watch right away. That way you're not feeling like you're doing nothing. The kit will come pretty quickly too, but I love the quick availability, hehe.

42 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

We have an appt with the dev opt week after next, and I'm hoping then to get the testing scheduled for both of them.

Wow, you've got a lot of irons in the fire!! I'm losing track, have you done a baseline CTOPP yet? Don't do tier 3 intervention before your psych evals or at least a baseline CTOPP if you need that diagnosis. Now a psych might see it anyway, but I'm just saying it will slow things down. That diagnosis is really helpful for paper trail. If you can get some kind of baseline CTOPP done before you begin intervention, that would be really smart. An SLP who does literacy, a Barton tutor, an OG tutor, all kinds of people will have this test lying around. I can get it locally for $75 with an OG tutor. So if you can get that done, that would be really smart. You'll be itching to get going, but paper trail and diagnoses are helpful too. They can get you access to BARD/NLS and open other doors.

45 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

I think I see a spreadsheet in my future, along with a binder. lol Even typing all this out here, I re-read to make sure I'm not confusing the two of them and what they've each had done/not.

Seriously, lol. We had stiff IEP fights for so long with my ds. They say to do binders and I had so much paper I was like wow that was dumb. I should have just been putting it all in a deep box in chronological order, lol.

What I do for my ds' stuff (and you do what you want, but this is what I do) is a dropbox account with a folder set up for him with sub-folders for each year. I am constantly needing to share previous reports etc. with SLPs, OTs, lawyers, psychs, you name it, so I just share that link and boom done. 

[Jentrovert]

On 6/14/2019 at 7:27 PM, PeterPan said:

Oh dear. Well see how she does on the screening. It's possible you'll need to do some FIS/LIPS first. I'm a little flabbergasted the curriculum taught it that way. I need to think about that. It's just not logically consistent. Jaw drop works for discriminating VOWELS, yes. But not for syllables. Think about it. If you say "needle" your jaw never drops. The first vowel is a retraction ("ee" =/E/) and the 2nd syllable is an "le" syllable and might drop very little or not at all for many people. Just not a reliable way to teach. That's where the skimpiness of the LOE author's qualifications come in, sigh. She had big vision but she's just not ready to bring what you need.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. My jaw does drop 2 times for needle, though. But I do tend to speak and enunciate (is that the correct word?) very clearly, and even more so with the kids. 

Wow, you've got a lot of irons in the fire!! I'm losing track, have you done a baseline CTOPP yet? Don't do tier 3 intervention before your psych evals or at least a baseline CTOPP if you need that diagnosis. Now a psych might see it anyway, but I'm just saying it will slow things down. That diagnosis is really helpful for paper trail. If you can get some kind of baseline CTOPP done before you begin intervention, that would be really smart. An SLP who does literacy, a Barton tutor, an OG tutor, all kinds of people will have this test lying around. I can get it locally for $75 with an OG tutor. So if you can get that done, that would be really smart. You'll be itching to get going, but paper trail and diagnoses are helpful too. They can get you access to BARD/NLS and open other doors.

No, no baseline yet. I'm going to type below what I found this weekend.

 

Ok, so I did the Barton pretest on both kids. DD7 passed the test, with none wrong on A or B, and the maximum wrong (2) on C. She did a lot of watching my mouth intently as I said the sounds on C; she would not have passed had she been unable to see me. DS6 failed the test. He had the maximum wrong on A and B, and was well over the maximum on C.

In researching SLPs this weekend, I came across a few 2-3 hours away from us at learning centers/dyslexia school, etc. Indications were the testing there takes 1.5 - 2 hours or so. So we have options there. I found one though, about 3.5 hours away, that at least on the surface sounds like much more. I emailed her, and here is part of her response: "The CTOPP is one of the tests I give as part of an in-depth professional evaluation.  I provide a full assessment in the areas of expressive and receptive oral language, reading, spelling, and writing skills....Evaluations are serious, in depth investigations into learning strengths and weaknesses.  They are scheduled on two different days and usually consist of 5-6 hours of direct assessment.  In addition I collect history and informational checklists from the family to help build a well rounded profile.  A family never receives a computer generated, generic score printout. Instead, tests are thoroughly analyzed and families receive a 20-30 page report that details the individual results of their child.  Reports are explained during a parent meeting and time is taken to answer questions you might have about the unique needs of your child."  Her website says she has special training in: Yoshimoto OG, SPELL-Links to Reading and Writing, LETRS, LiPS, Zoo-phonics. Masters in SLP and Reading and several certifications, etc. 

The cons are that it is a longer trip (which I don't mind for something I won't have to make more than 2 trips for, and the trip isn't unexpected. We're at least 2 hours from anywhere.) and she doesn't accept insurance. The cost is $500. However, it sounds like we'd be getting quite a lot of info for that amount, and considering her time investment (5-6 hours of assessment) it's certainly not an outlandish amount per hour. While we don't want to just throw money away, we are willing to spend this amount for something that will produce some actionable results while waiting for neuropsych.

So, first, since DS6 failed the Barton pretest, I want to go ahead and do LiPS with him, right? I mean, I definitely want to do this, regardless of whether it turns out he has dyslexia and regardless of the SLP testing? (Is the fact he failed the Barton pretest highly indicative of dyslexia, even without any other testing?) I've read several threads on LiPS vs FIS, and I feel I can implement LiPS. It is more appealing to me because of the number of reviews and FIS just seems to be $$$ for what you get. But I'm open to further opinions on choosing between them.

And, if the above is yes, don't I want to do LiPS with dd as well, since I'll have it anyway, and though she passed, she didn't fly through C with no problems?

And then, what do you think about the above SLP? Does it sound (I know there's no way to guarantee) that it would be worth pursing that as opposed to one a little closer and cheaper (likely free)? Like I said above, I don't want to waste $, but this one just sounds like we'll get so much more in one stop. She offers a free phone consult, so I can see what kind of feel I get over the phone too.

Thank you all again for helping me sort through this. I have alternately been feeling overwhelmed and sad / confident and ready to get in there and work through it. Along with still some thoughts of, maybe I'm making more of it than it really is . . . but if that were true, they would have blown through the Barton pretest easily, right? A child above age 5 with no problems would be able to do all parts with no difficulty? 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Jennifer
Clarification

[Storygirl]

I would use the SLP that gives the more extensive testing and reporting, even though she is farther away. While you are deciding, you can also research educational psychologists. If you suspect anything other than a language issue (such as a math disability or ADHD), I would use a psych instead of an SLP. But if you are just exploring the dyslexia/reading issues, I think the SLP you describe is okay.

The only thing I wonder -- and I really don't know -- is if an SLP is licensed to provide an official learning disability diagnosis, or whether she can tell you what is going on but is not allowed to diagnose. I don't know what the licensing rules are.

An educational psychologist would undoubtedly cost more. I think you could go either way. Keep in mind that kids with LDs often need to be evaluated more than one time over their childhood. If they go to college, for example, the college will want the testing to be recent; if they go to public school at some point, the school repeats testing every three years -- so updating testing is common. So you can decide that the SLP evaluations are sufficient for now and accept that you may do additional testing later.

Because the SLP has a narrower focus than a psych and will not be testing as wide of a range of things. You may find eventually that some of those other areas are also concerning. And that's not unusual, either. What we see and understand about our kids at age 7 is not identical to what we see in them at age 12 or 16. As an example, DD13 had her dyslexia testing with a neuropsych just as she turned ten. She just turned 14, and we are looking more into the ADHD question now (the NP thought ADHD back then but did not diagnose). It can be an ongoing exploration.

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Ok, so I did the Barton pretest on both kids. DD7 passed the test, with none wrong on A or B, and the maximum wrong (2) on C. She did a lot of watching my mouth intently as I said the sounds on C; she would not have passed had she been unable to see me. DS6 failed the test. He had the maximum wrong on A and B, and was well over the maximum on C.

So I would run both of them through, a two-fer. 

7 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

And, if the above is yes, don't I want to do LiPS with dd as well, since I'll have it anyway, and though she passed, she didn't fly through C with no problems?

Yes, whether you go with LIPS or FIS, I would run them both through. Your dd may go through more quickly. You could integrate it into Barton 1 if you want. My ds has apraxia (a motor planning of speech problem) so we used the LIPS materials all through Barton 1 and 2, completely integrated. There's no waste here, just more tools. It will be fabulous.

8 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

I found one though, about 3.5 hours away, that at least on the surface sounds like much more. I emailed her, and here is part of her response: "The CTOPP is one of the tests I give as part of an in-depth professional evaluation.  I provide a full assessment in the areas of expressive and receptive oral language, reading, spelling, and writing skills....Evaluations are serious, in depth investigations into learning strengths and weaknesses.  They are scheduled on two different days and usually consist of 5-6 hours of direct assessment.  In addition I collect history and informational checklists from the family to help build a well rounded profile.  A family never receives a computer generated, generic score printout. Instead, tests are thoroughly analyzed and families receive a 20-30 page report that details the individual results of their child.  Reports are explained during a parent meeting and time is taken to answer questions you might have about the unique needs of your child."  Her website says she has special training in: Yoshimoto OG, SPELL-Links to Reading and Writing, LETRS, LiPS, Zoo-phonics. Masters in SLP and Reading and several certifications, etc. 

Ok, so her list sounds really fab. Does she test narrative language? As long as she does, she sounds like your woman. Driving that far for a good eval is fine. It's not something you do a bunch of times. Says the woman who drove that far weekly for THERAPY, lol. I've even done it twice weekly, which I really don't recommend. Sigh. 

So if you can get somebody closer to do that, obviously go closer. But yes it sounds like she's hitting the stuff you want and will crank you out a lot of actionable material. She's also creating a baseline to retest in a year or two and see your progress, see what's working and what remains. How long is her wait? You'd like to get that baseline testing done before you eval. These kids are going to want full psych evals, paper trail, college accommodations, etc.

11 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

The cost is $500.

Drop in the bucket. I don't know how she's billing at that rate and surviving. Make sure narrative language is there. Around here SLPs bill $80-125 an hour. So that eval, if it includes 3 hours of testing, also has to include money for report writing. That alone tells you she's either under-billing or doing some cut and paste, haha. Cut & paste is fine. It's not like your kid is so novel. That's why she owns all the stuff, lol. So yeah, great price, go for the service, get it done. Will doing that hinder your ability to make psych evals happen at some point? 

13 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

I feel I can implement LiPS.

Yup, you can. FIS is if you want pre-scripted. LIPS is your SLP-generated tool for people who need to be able to customize instruction. There are some lesson plans and guidance, but it's a concept that you can morph, merge into Barton, anything you need. Just more hassle and not open and go. If you want open and go get FIS.

14 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

She did a lot of watching my mouth intently

You've had her to an audiologist? Unless that was recent, I would update that and get them to run a screener for APD as well. I'm not a super fan of the TAPS because it's half phonological processing, so hopefully they'll have the SCAN. Our university can do that for free, and it would be wise to get that done just to be super sure, especially if it's low cost or free.

17 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

maybe I'm making more of it than it really is . . . but if that were true, they would have blown through the Barton pretest easily, right? A child above age 5 with no problems would be able to do all parts with no difficulty? 

Bingo. A 5 yo who is typically developing should pass the Barton screener. But you know that's how you figure out if this is a nothing burger or something. The IDA wants kids diagnosed between K5 and 1st, going into 1st, and that's what you're doing. You're following best practice. The tools and data are there to discriminate and sort out what's going on. Sometimes you don't get the answers you're expecting either. Like I was really serious that you need to be getting her into an audiologist. That will be a super short wait and that needs to happen unless it already got done in the last year or so. 

There are plenty of studies showing that MOTHER GUT is more accurate diagnostically than psychs, peds, etc, especially in these early years. You're seeing red flags and have hours and hours of data on her that your brain is collecting and sifting down into areas of concern. So when a mother says something is wrong, USUALLY something is going on. You're not saying what is going on or trying to be a psych or SLP. You're just saying you know something is up and it's time for answers.