Has anyone done just vintage math before Algebra?

[Slache]

We've been doing Strayer-Upton and I love it, but the math threads lately are kinda freaking me out the way they sometimes do. You guys spend an hour on math while we spend 15 minutes. You guys are quadrupling polynomials while we discuss percents (shush, you get my point).

I wanted to save the big stuff for later, allowing us now to spend more time on Greek and writing and play. I don't want to spend an hour on math.

I can totally see us doing AoPS in 6th and being total math nerds, doing advanced calculus in high school, but I don't think we need to begin that now just because we can.

Have you done only vintage until prealgebra? Do you regret it?

[katilac]

It doesn't sound like your question is vintage math versus modern math, but rather: 

1. Longer lessons vs shorter lessons
2. More advanced work or not 

And those two things don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, particularly in the early years. 

Are your students engaged? Do they have to struggle sometimes, even if they finish rather quickly? Do they have a math-rich environment beyond the short lessons? These are the most important factors in my mind. You particularly want to guard against everything being easy, that doesn't stretch the brain and it makes life difficult for the student down the road. If their work is too easy, you don't necessarily have to switch from a program you love. You can combine some lessons, you can substitute some challenging problems, you can spend days here and there skipping the text and working on math challenges. You can play math-centric games and read math-centric books (above and beyond the lesson). 

You don't have to working at an advanced level in elementary. Most kids don't, and even many who struggle to stay on level throughout those years wind up doing just fine in upper math. 

As far as using it until pre-algebra, you need to look at what it teaches to that point and how that matches up with moving on to pre-algebra and algebra programs that you like. You can't know for sure what programs you will actually use, of course, but the ones you like now probably have some things in common. Don't consider just computational fluency but problem-solving skills, the ability to apply what you know, and so on. If you look ahead and your program doesn't provide that, then start considering how to supplement. 

[HomeAgain]

Do what works for you. 🙂 We spend time on math because ds likes it.  And now that we're using a different, older program, the actual lesson is pretty quick and it lets him play more with whatever concepts he wants.  I have to say it's rather nice.  Both of us are relaxed and ds is still getting his math in an age appropriate way.

[daijobu]

Just curious:  what would you say is the attraction of vintage math versus "modern" math?  What is different about it?  Thanks!  

[Slache]

29 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Just curious:  what would you say is the attraction of vintage math versus "modern" math?  What is different about it?  Thanks!  

Easier to implement, covers life application topics more thoroughly, saves algebraic concepts for older students.

[Slache]

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

What counts as an algebraic concept? I do think gentle introductions to algebraic ideas make them less scary later. 

Don't ask difficult questions! I don't really have a list in my head of what is and isn't ok, there have just been some things that I've seen that I don't agree with for the average student. I definitely agree with your statement.

2 hours ago, mms said:

Umm, you're not just doing vintage math though, Slache: you've got the Key to... series in your signature 😛

To answer your original question, no: my eldest is only 10 so we are not yet near algebra.  But we did use only vintage math for a little while.  I used to be in love with vintage math, especially SU, but through experience my feelings have evolved to be a bit more nuanced than a couple of years ago.

That said, if I remember correctly there is one boardie who used SU before AOPS and her kids did fine.  Yup, here's the thread:

After going through way more drama with math than I ever expected the verdict for my own family from now on is this: 

1) Delay math till 8 (or close to it, DD7 started about a month or so ago (she's almost 8); in contrast DD10 started "gentle, age-appropriate teacher guided math play" at age 4).  I kind of feel that delaying math and vintage math mesh well together, Benezet and all 🙂 Except teaching the child how to read a clock: I start at 7 because I think this is a valuable life skill and it's an easy way to teach numerals.  I am very comfortable with delaying because I come from a system that didn't start math till 7, consisted in only learning how to add and subtract to 100 the first year, and produced many engineers and mathematicians.  My mom started me at 4 and I can only see the negatives from that experience and few positives - it was only fear/insecurity that made me start my first so early.

2) Whenever ready to start math begin with c-rod play, filling out a 100s chart to learn writing the numerals and some RS work for number bonds (not the curriculum just some of the suggestions from Activities for AL Abacus).  With DD7 this took all of two weeks before she was ready to move on to EFL arithmetic lessons. I also never had to teach her how to count to 100, add or subtract to 20, nor basic fractions: she figured all this out on her own from living life in a busy family and helping with chores and cooking.  In contrast, DD10 it took three years of formal instruction to learn the same material and despite the early start she is still "behind" in math (though I feel she's finally starting to catch up!).

3) 100% yes to Ella Frances Lynch's arithmetic lessons using an abacus just like DD10 did.  I will probably not do SU again except maybe the wonderful Improvement Tests.

4) Lightly supplement EFL arithmetic with modern math using Miquon.  So far it's working out to 5-10 minutes EFL lessons and around 2 Miquon worksheets a day with DD7 (I pick one, she picks one).  As EFL lessons take up more time we'll do less in Miquon.  I have no wish for math to take more than 20-30 minutes for a long time.

5) Once done with EFL's lessons proceed to a typical modern curriculum wherever they are placed or fill in gaps with targetted skill work before starting prealgebra, depending on the child's abilities, interests, goals, etc.

Obviously, this is all experiential and I'm in the trenches.  But, overall I think I'd still consider myself pro-vintage math despite the limitations I've encountered.  Ask me again in about ten years...

Is @Mrs. A still around?  She used Ray's from the beginning I think, not sure what her kids are doing now.

Key to... He likes workbooks. I think that might be a big part of my problem. I'm always questioning the challenging aspect of vintage, but now I'm questioning the format. He loves his workbooks. I wrote his SU out today and I think that might be better for us. I need to think. I've been toying with buying Saxon 5/4 and letting him write directly in the book. Saxon was what I had picked when he was two months old (slight exaggeration) but I didn't want to do K-3 and in search for something in its place I found Ray's. Boom. Hooked.

Anyway. Just thinking out loud. I just don't want to jump around in math. I want to stay here, or switch to Saxon and stay there. Either will get us to Algebra, but which is better for him? No one will tell me that.

Mrs. A is doing Beast Academy. She abandoned me. I cried.

[Slache]

2 hours ago, mms said:

 

After going through way more drama with math than I ever expected the verdict for my own family from now on is this: 

1) Delay math till 8 (or close to it, DD7 started about a month or so ago (she's almost 8); in contrast DD10 started "gentle, age-appropriate teacher guided math play" at age 4).  I kind of feel that delaying math and vintage math mesh well together, Benezet and all 🙂 Except teaching the child how to read a clock: I start at 7 because I think this is a valuable life skill and it's an easy way to teach numerals.  I am very comfortable with delaying because I come from a system that didn't start math till 7, consisted in only learning how to add and subtract to 100 the first year, and produced many engineers and mathematicians.  My mom started me at 4 and I can only see the negatives from that experience and few positives - it was only fear/insecurity that made me start my first so early.

2) Whenever ready to start math begin with c-rod play, filling out a 100s chart to learn writing the numerals and some RS work for number bonds (not the curriculum just some of the suggestions from Activities for AL Abacus).  With DD7 this took all of two weeks before she was ready to move on to EFL arithmetic lessons. I also never had to teach her how to count to 100, add or subtract to 20, nor basic fractions: she figured all this out on her own from living life in a busy family and helping with chores and cooking.  In contrast, DD10 it took three years of formal instruction to learn the same material and despite the early start she is still "behind" in math (though I feel she's finally starting to catch up!).

3) 100% yes to Ella Frances Lynch's arithmetic lessons using an abacus just like DD10 did.  I will probably not do SU again except maybe the wonderful Improvement Tests.

4) Lightly supplement EFL arithmetic with modern math using Miquon.  So far it's working out to 5-10 minutes EFL lessons and around 2 Miquon worksheets a day with DD7 (I pick one, she picks one).  As EFL lessons take up more time we'll do less in Miquon.  I have no wish for math to take more than 20-30 minutes for a long time.

5) Once done with EFL's lessons proceed to a typical modern curriculum wherever they are placed or fill in gaps with targetted skill work before starting prealgebra, depending on the child's abilities, interests, goals, etc.

Obviously, this is all experiential and I'm in the trenches.  But, overall I think I'd still consider myself pro-vintage math despite the limitations I've encountered.  Ask me again in about ten years...

Is @Mrs. A still around?  She used Ray's from the beginning I think, not sure what her kids are doing now.

I read the thread and I find it interesting that she only did the first two books. I have to look at the third again. Fippin' As in AoPS!? Well, ok then. Responding to your thoughts.

1) Ish. That's kinda how we got here, but I think I do things more formally than you before 8. I think...

2) C-Rods, Al Abacus, 100s charts yes. And more toys, but too many to list.

3) I don't know anything about EFL.

4) Miquon was meh. I feel like we wasted time.

5) Key to! 

 

We used a math fact ANKI deck to practice with the Abacus, learned C-Rods with Education Unboxed and Miquon but they mostly were just used as toys, bought MM dark blue as interests peaked, finally turned to SU when we were ready at ages 7 and 5 as my daughter is ridiculously mathy.

[Slache]

1 hour ago, mms said:

Well the rule of thumb is if it's working stick with it, right?  You can just scan SU & print it out with enough space to write on.  I've actually considered doing that before.

That said, I think one of the reasons I enjoy homeschooling these days is being able to tailor program(s) to the student as one would in tutoring situation.  When I was tutoring I had no problem using more than one resource, only assigning precisely the right amount of work for a particular student and otherwise teaching the student rather than the curriculum.  For some reason, when I started homeschooling I could do that with language arts (which is not my strength at all), but felt the need to do the curriculum precisely as written for math ?!?!  That's why neither SU nor Saxon worked here: I did not feel in control, I felt chained to the book.  So, I threw out my school marm mentality and put back on my tutor hat and it's been working out far better to use one very short thing consistently every day (which ironically enough is a vintage workbook that the Amish use along with SU) and then pick and chose what I want to teach/assign.  A bit more time for me but also far more joy in the homeschool.  (Ask me if it's still working in the fall with three students, a toddler and a newb, ha ha).

EFL's book, arithmetic chapter on page 115, wish I could figure out how to link to it directly.  What makes the EFL lessons different from vintage textbooks is the exploratory nature.  Non-mathy DD had no issues with Beast style problems when we tried BA for a while after she was done (she was opposed to it on purely aesthetic grounds).  The geometry based lessons (like cutting out 1" squares to cover a surface to figure out the area) are uncannily like Miquon.  Except Miquon uses c-rods and EFL depends on pebbles and household objects (though we use the abacus and crods).  Oddly enough, discovery based Miquon did not work for DD10, but going through EFL's short and incremental lessons is what finally got her willing to start working through math rather than shutting down when she didn't know an answer immediately and they laid a very solid conceptual foundation.

Miquon is hit or miss.  I like some aspects of it and not others.  DD7 is enjoying it though so I'll keep it up with her.

BTW, if you don't want to spend super long on math, Saxon might not be the best choice.  Do a search, over an hour at the middle school level and two hours starting with prealgebra is not unusual.  I thought there was something wrong with DD, no: it was Saxon.

SU Book III would be a no go here even if I had stuck with I & II.  Just too out there in the old stuff: half the book would be useless.  Far better modern prealgebra options available.

I'm not sure it's still working for him though. After this entire thread and texting a bajillion people I think we're switching anyway. Ahem.

Link the workbook, please!

Thanks for the book link. 

I know Saxon takes a long time. That's why I don't want to switch. But it's kinda perfect for him. I would let him write in the book to save time. That would be $40book for 5/4-8/7 and then I'd be open to switching.

1 hour ago, mms said:

Huh, that's odd!  She loved Rays.  I wonder what happened.  I almost feel like I need to go stalk her on the AO boards and find out, lol.

I think she's doing both.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Slache

[Slache]

4 minutes ago, mms said:

I can't.  It doesn't exist on the internet (and I thought everything was on the internet)!  I came across it by accident and I wish I could find the other grade levels but so far no luck 😞 

Nooooooooooooooo...

[smfmommy]

I remember seeing the workbooks that coincide with the SU math books.  I think the company was Gordonville Press in Pennsylvania.  It's an Amish company though, so I am not sure if you can find them online.  Maybe write them via snail mail?

I recently found an interesting set of workbooks by Irving Adler.  Titled Mathematics - Grade X (they go up to grade 6).  The way it introduces concepts reminded me of SU.  I'm going to use it for my boys next year we needed something we get through all of only working a few days out of the week and have time for games and living math books.  

I don't necessarily do vintage, but I do like to keep the math topics narrower.  I tend to do a variety of smaller workbooks.  My oldest three have done fine in Algebra (9th grade), but none of them are mathy either.

Edited to add: this might be the store?

https://www.discoverlancaster.com/members/gordonville_book_store.asp

Edited June 13, 2019 by smfmommy
Adding information

[Slache]

17 minutes ago, seemesew said:

For us Saxon has been the quickest math we've tried. I have my son do all the new practice problems (none of the ones at the beginning in the box) and then choose odds or evens. Its working and doesn't take that long compared to CLE or MM, lol!

Have you looked into simply Charlotte masons new math curriculum? It looks lovely and very much like a vintage program but with more modern language and a new community, plus the author is still alive and very involved with questions. the site has ample samples and a dvd showing you how to teach if you need it. https://simplycharlottemason.com/store/product-category/product-math/

Dat's purty!

12 minutes ago, mms said:

Unfortunately, in DD's case when I let her just do the odds or evens it really interfered with her retention.  She really had to do the program as written to get the full benefit of it and it was taking forever.  Not sure why this was the case, plenty of people have used Saxon doing just the odds or evens.  Never tried CLE, but yes MM did take even longer than Saxon - even when cutting half the problems out.

This will be us.

[Mrs. A]

I haven't logged on to these boards in ages. Sorry I'm late to the party!

We actually still do use Ray's (though, yes, we are using it alongside BA). I have one dd though, who is going to use Ray's almost exclusively this coming year and just occasionally dip her toes in BA when it seems like it might be fun. I have all the BA books, and they have mostly been fun for us, but for this particular dd they are not a good fit. I wanted to make it work because pulling out a workbook and doing a few pages seemed like it was just so much easier than taking the time to go through the oral work in Ray's together. It seemed overwhelming somehow to have to do math with her and also with my 1st grader. But I've realized over the past year that Ray's actually takes way less time and lays such a solid foundation that I was silly to have moved away from it in the first place. I can't wait to get back into it more fully again.

The older two dc never stopped using Intellectual, though we did stop using Practical since they were doing the BA books. They're both in the fractions chapter now and I continue to be so impressed by how thorough it is.