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ROAR VBS program - please reconsider


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If your church is using Group's Roar VBS program, please start a conversation with them and ask them to reconsider. It's racially insensitive and completely tone deaf. We can do better. We should do better. Christian publishing needs to listen more to ethnic faith communities because apparently they did not learn from Lifeway's debacle. Group's posts about this on Twitter and Facebook responding to this were also tone deaf and have since been pulled down. 
 
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I have never been overly impressed with Group’s materials in general, but this seems to be a new low. I read the article you linked and then went to Group’s website and looked at the promo materials. Besides the issues you mentioned, it just seemed very strange to combine a Safari theme with the Israelites in Ancient Egypt.

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This is what I wrote on social media about this:

This is their revised (multiple times) response on their page which still underwhelms. They have since pulled twitter and facebook. Especially in the revision file which reads as follows:

"We’re thankful for VBS leaders who have alerted us to several concerns in Roar VBS that could be considered insensitive. We sincerely apologize, and offer these modifications to help your Roar experience be the very best for all your children and community."

The comments on their FB page are making me sad that so many people are failing to hear and listen to POC, and that so many white people are commenting that there is nothing to apologize for and trying to racesplain to POC.
Conditional apologies are NOT apologies. Apologies that do not actually acknowledge a wrong are Not apologies. It WAS insensitive. It WAS racial stereotyping. It WAS offensive.

https://www.facebook.com/groupvbs/posts/3675269029172426?hc_location=ufi

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The comments were about what I would expect. No surprises there. As far as stereotyping..... duh. Every single VBS that was ever made stereotypes. They should have known better. VBS with a farming theme stereotypes farmers and farms. A pirate themed VBS stereotypes pirates. What were they thinking making this VBS?

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I'm sorry the offensive materials are out there. We don't do any VBS program without very serious consideration.(with all of my kids together, I think we have done 3 VBS programs.) I view most of them as fluff and puff sending confused mixed messages about the truth and reality of the Bible and the message came Christ came to teach. Kids get confused about real people and real events with tv show non-reality and fictional stories bc of the entertainment factor being the dominant message that kids perceive.

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6 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I'm sorry the offensive materials are out there. We don't do any VBS program without very serious consideration.(with all of my kids together, I think we have done 3 VBS programs.) I view most of them as fluff and puff sending confused mixed messages about the truth and reality of the Bible and the message came Christ came to teach. Kids get confused about real people and real events with tv show non-reality and fictional stories bc of the entertainment factor being the dominant message that kids perceive.

Well, that’s a whole other issue.😂😂 I’m not a huge VBS fan myself, but I’ve always gone to churches to put it on and I get involved out of support for the church. I agree that it is fluff and try to think of it more along the lines of being something for young kids to do in the summer. It helps parents and gives them a wholesome place for their kids to go for a week of mornings.

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We have never used Group's curriculum because the content is so poor. Extremely weak Biblically and theologically. Like much of American evagelicalism. They use verses out of context or that do not apply in almost every lesson I've read. Sorry, but not surprised, to hear that their VBS material is so bad.

I have used some of their game books and those were good as long as they are not intended to be teaching exercises.

Many years ago, when I was right out of grad school,  I met the founders of the company at a conference and was distressed to discover how weak their overall understanding of Christian Education was. Not a biblical anthropology at all. 

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Thanks  for the heads up my church doesn't do vbs and I don't love VBS.  But I have let my kids go some times for fun since its free and their friends often invite them.  It seems every church in town is using this curriculum based on the signs.  

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The slavery part does not bother me.  It's an important part of the Bible and has nothing to do with race in the context used.  I actually think that is a better way to explain slavery to modern kids than some other alternatives.  We do want kids to be able to understand what slavery is, don't we?

The stuff about out-of-context African culture / stereotypes is pretty stupid.  I would not use those parts.  Calling Africa a country is dumb, but if it was the only thing (they say it also refers to Africa as a continent), I'd treat it as a typo and just fix it.

I think as far as reconsidering, I don't know how much churches can do at this point.  They started promoting the program months ago.  I definitely agree with editing out the stupid stuff though.

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And honestly, this helps explain why I think kids should be older before schools attempt to teach difficult issues relating to race and ethnicity.  Teaching it to young kids necessarily "waters it down" and promotes an inaccurate understanding for both kids of color and "white kids."  I would rather this kind of thing be discussed at home in language appropriate to each family/child, until they reach an age where they are ready for the complete, factual truth.

And it should be obvious to educators that cultural differences should never be exploited as kiddy entertainment as described in the link above.  I can understand non-educators making this mistake, but a writer of curriculum needs to know better.

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I wrote this:
 I am personally not joining the call to ban churches who have unknowingly purchased this curriculum. I am trying to forge another way forward to preserve relationship and engage in conversation. My own church purchased this as they purchase Group's VBS kit every year as long as I can remember. 

Our program is due to start in 10 days. It's too late to pull it. I am engaged currently in helping them respond to this. Right now, I have gotten agreement to modify the program. I am in progress on some other points I have made, and the senior leadership is meeting this morning about this. 

I am personally not going to allow my children to wear the shirts. I have asked the church to consider pulling the shirts and replace them with something else even plain t-shirts. I am working with them on a public statement and because we are a mega church, Group has been in contact with our church. I am hopeful that the dialogue with Group's representatives will be fruitful as they have expressed a desire to talk to me about this.

I have asked our church to not purchase Group's products going forward until Group has acknowledged the wrongs and made some tangible steps toward reconcilation and restoration. I believe that this is an important step as Group is a large curriclum provider.


Later this:
I have really great news. My church is pulling it in its entirety. They are going to pull together their own with 10 days to go. I have been praying about my communications with the senior leadership. I am beyond words that they heard me out and want to step out and make a statement about the value our church places on inclusion and diversity in our pursuit of winning people to. They want our actions to reflect our words and this does not reflect the message of love and acceptance that Christ offers to all people.

Adding this comment:

i have been careful not to label this curriculum as racist. I am pointing out that there are flaws in this. Flaws that are significant enough to speak up about it. Perpeturating racial sterotypes and cultural appropriation are not acceptable. As a Christian and a person of color, I have to speak up. I am not condemning the whole company either. This company has a huge reach. Millions of children will be exposed to this. If they are given this, modeled and taught this as it stood, then then they will internalize that this is acceptable and normalize it. They do not have the lens or experience to recognize it as inappropriate and racially insensitive. Unless people speak out (hopefully and always in truth and love) to admonish andr rebuke, then no change will happen. There must be many (based on the responses I keep reading) of white Christians who are my brothers and sisters who do not see anything wrong with this. That is exactly why speaking up about this is important to start conversations with them in relationship and community so that they can learn to understand why this is a big deal and why these parts of this curriculum are problematic. When you have a big platform like this, it comes with a great deal of responsibility to use it wisely. Group can do better. I hope it does do better. I do not want their company to be destroyed by this. They are moving in the right direction, but what they have communicated so far still indicates that there is still work to be done. I often think the God does the greatest transformative work in our lives during the painful and most challenging times. I realize that this must be that for them. I truly hope that they would see that there are most people truly desire for them to come through this and to help them through to grow in this area.

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

I am curious as to whether churches get to see what they are buying before buying it?

I don’t know specifically with Group but I know that in the past our children’s minister has gotten a sample VBS kit for her to see sample lessons and samples of the items available to purchase. 

Added: https://www.group.com/text/catalogs/2019-VBS-Roar-Catalog/#_ga=2.258522378.1691968601.1560439437-1246777694.1560439437

I don’t see a sample lesson in here.

 

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Honestly, even if you get a sample, when you really don't know what is in there until you buy the kit. I taught for years in children's ministry and was a youth ministry director for years. We often used Group's materials. The sample video they provided about this doesn't give a full picture of what was actually in that script.

The kicker is if you open it that you can't return it. I am hoping that Group will consider offering a no questions asked return this kit for a refund or offer a credit to be redeemed in the future toward a replacement VBS kit. Something like that would be a signficant act that would restore a ton of credibility and faith in Group. That's what I plan to suggest if and when I talk to them as a possible path forward.

Edited by calbear
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This is incredibly well written. It's the best piece I have seen in about this whole thing and resonates with my own viewpoint on this. It's from United Methodist Church.

I would definitely share this with churches. It's not HuffPo or a blogger or a media news outlet. It's thoughtful and has a great guideline on how to think about and evaluate curricula choices. You don't have to follow it to a T, but it helps people who really have no idea how to begin to think about these questions to start. So incredibly helpful.

http://www.gcorr.org/vbs-is-not-immune-to-racism/?fbclid=IwAR0yNtcyyOox_3q3iwfH0svyA1nd3pOz3UvGPUNzs5CwC0gsWsmntWhJZew

Edited by calbear
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So, my kids are finishing up their week of VBS with this program today. I saw an article about the program just yesterday, so too late to talk to the church about using it. I did speak to my kids, and they did not do the click language thing, they did not hear Africa referred to as a country instead of a continent (I'd consider that a typo since it is properly refered to as a continent elsewhere). They did pretend to be slaves building bricks, and while I get why that was included I do see how it could be upsetting to African American children - even though it is about a different type of slavery in a different time/place these are children and that distinction is not going to matter when there is a visceral reaction to the idea of slavery (with good reason). 

Does the program ignore the horrors of slavery? Probably - but it is designed to be used with children as young as 4 years old, rising kindergarteners, so I'm not expecting it to talk about horrors at all. is it fluff? Yeah, it's cartoon rhinos for crying out loud, all their stuff is fluff. Does it get across a basic message each year? Hopefully. If nothing else, my kids and I always discuss the main theme, and how it applies to their life, and they love the music. They attend more for social reasons than for deep theology. 

I think that the claim of being culturally insensitive is spot on, and I don't like that. I do not think that is exactly the same thing as racist, and despite many articles claiming they stereotype African peoples I haven't seen any examples yet of that listed in the articles. Every article lists the same three things - having kids pretend to be slaves is insensitive the realities of actual slaves in history (agree), the use of the word country rather than continent in one place in the instructions (typo), and the click language name game, which was dropped. 

I'm not boycotting my church over this, nor do I think the above three things makes the entire program racist, which is what the headlines claim. And no, the churches don't know the details at that level before buying. 

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2 minutes ago, TCB said:

Ok I've read that but I'm afraid I don't really understand how that is "mocking" - maybe I missed something. 

Without seeing the video to introduce it, I can't say what the background information is that is given. However, I would liken just adding clicking sounds to your name to be equivalent to teaching kids about Mexico by teaching them to add -o to English words to teach them "Spanish".  

 

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1 hour ago, beckyjo said:

Without seeing the video to introduce it, I can't say what the background information is that is given. However, I would liken just adding clicking sounds to your name to be equivalent to teaching kids about Mexico by teaching them to add -o to English words to teach them "Spanish".  

 

I kind of get what you're saying but it seemed like there was more information about Africa as part of the VBS and also I would see that as silly or stupid as far as Spanish goes but not necessarily mocking. Also it did not sound like they were saying they were teaching them the African language by doing that. 

ETA I'm not trying to be argumentative and it's hard to know for sure without going through the whole activity - which we can't - but that part about the clicking just didn't seem to be what the article said it was. 

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34 minutes ago, TCB said:

I kind of get what you're saying but it seemed like there was more information about Africa as part of the VBS and also I would see that as silly or stupid as far as Spanish goes but not necessarily mocking. Also it did not sound like they were saying they were teaching them the African language by doing that. 

ETA I'm not trying to be argumentative and it's hard to know for sure without going through the whole activity - which we can't - but that part about the clicking just didn't seem to be what the article said it was. 

It reminds me of the old Videoscope movies TCM is playing lately.  Short clips, each focusing on a different part of the world.  The 1946 one on Australia had such lines as "look at how the whites have civilized this continent."  I'm sure it read fine at the time to their American company, but it seems rather tone deaf, doesn't it?

They were not teaching anything about African languages in this program.  They were pretending, but not really.  Let's rewrite their statement for North America:

You've had fun learning aboout animals you might see in North America and even discovering some of the cool people who live in North America, too.  People in different countries in North America speak a lot of different languages.  But one amazing thing you might hear if you visited a certain area in North America would be people talking with words ending in -o in their language.

Lead kids in saying -o for a few seconds.  Then show them the "-o Language" video.
Make your name including an -o at the end, and "introduce" yourself to kids using your new name.


Imagine your name ends in an o.  Introduce yourself to your Crew with your new "-o language" name. 

Play music while Crews talk, then turn off the music and allow a few kids to share their new names.

Do you see how silly and tone deaf it sounds?  How it mocks a culture by focusing on one aspect of a language to characterize it and the people?  How it gives absolutely no background and the kids walk away without learning anything except other languages sound silly to their untrained ears?  No?

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46 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

It reminds me of the old Videoscope movies TCM is playing lately.  Short clips, each focusing on a different part of the world.  The 1946 one on Australia had such lines as "look at how the whites have civilized this continent."  I'm sure it read fine at the time to their American company, but it seems rather tone deaf, doesn't it?

They were not teaching anything about African languages in this program.  They were pretending, but not really.  Let's rewrite their statement for North America:

You've had fun learning aboout animals you might see in North America and even discovering some of the cool people who live in North America, too.  People in different countries in North America speak a lot of different languages.  But one amazing thing you might hear if you visited a certain area in North America would be people talking with words ending in -o in their language.

Lead kids in saying -o for a few seconds.  Then show them the "-o Language" video.
Make your name including an -o at the end, and "introduce" yourself to kids using your new name.


Imagine your name ends in an o.  Introduce yourself to your Crew with your new "-o language" name. 

Play music while Crews talk, then turn off the music and allow a few kids to share their new names.

Do you see how silly and tone deaf it sounds?  How it mocks a culture by focusing on one aspect of a language to characterize it and the people?  How it gives absolutely no background and the kids walk away without learning anything except other languages sound silly to their untrained ears?  No?

I guess I am looking at this having actually heard someone speak a language that contained clicks. It sounded amazing and wonderful to me and definitely not silly. I did try to make some of the sounds to myself because they were amazing and really difficult to do.  I did not feel any superiority over the person or any negative feeling like that at all. I really love accents and love hearing the different ways people say things. I come from a country that has a different accent than the one I live in and I frequently have people here try pronouncing words in the accent of my country of origin and I do not feel like they are mocking me. I realize that there are certainly ways to do this in a mocking way, but when someone is just trying it out I do not find it mocking. Maybe I am not usual in feeling like this. 

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10 minutes ago, TCB said:

I guess I am looking at this having actually heard someone speak a language that contained clicks. It sounded amazing and wonderful to me and definitely not silly. I did try to make some of the sounds to myself because they were amazing and really difficult to do.  I did not feel any superiority over the person or any negative feeling like that at all. I really love accents and love hearing the different ways people say things. I come from a country that has a different accent than the one I live in and I frequently have people here try pronouncing words in the accent of my country of origin and I do not feel like they are mocking me. I realize that there are certainly ways to do this in a mocking way, but when someone is just trying it out I do not find it mocking. Maybe I am not usual in feeling like this. 

I get this; I love languages too. However, the Khoisan languages are mostly endangered or extinct,  so it does seem to be more like, "Wow, the Africans don't even use letters like us [read: correctly], they add tongue clicks. Isn't that funny?" From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoisan_languages), 250,000 speak the Khoekhoe language, which is the most common Khoisan language. In contrast, Swahili is spoken by an estimated 50-100 million Africans. (Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language). They picked the "weird" one even though there are umpteen more common African languages. Was it to make Africans seem "exotic"? 

My real issue with if you're going to teach Khoisan languages, you should at least learn the name of the language, and some actual words. Don't just throw sounds in there and pretend (even with preschoolers). Now, granted, I have not seen the "click language video" they present it with, but I'm not holding out hope that they got it right in the video.

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26 minutes ago, beckyjo said:

I get this; I love languages too. However, the Khoisan languages are mostly endangered or extinct,  so it does seem to be more like, "Wow, the Africans don't even use letters like us [read: correctly], they add tongue clicks. Isn't that funny?" From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoisan_languages), 250,000 speak the Khoekhoe language, which is the most common Khoisan language. In contrast, Swahili is spoken by an estimated 50-100 million Africans. (Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language). They picked the "weird" one even though there are umpteen more common African languages. Was it to make Africans seem "exotic"? 

My real issue with if you're going to teach Khoisan languages, you should at least learn the name of the language, and some actual words. Don't just throw sounds in there and pretend (even with preschoolers). Now, granted, I have not seen the "click language video" they present it with, but I'm not holding out hope that they got it right in the video.

I think they chose it because it is unusual, and interesting. I've always been taught that it was a linguistic item of fascination, due to being different. Most of the time we point out things that are the same, and things that are different, when learning about a place. So look, they go to school like you, and drink milk like you, and speak differently with these cool clicks that most people in the world can't even do! 

Now, I did make sure to clarify with my kids that the children shown in videos they saw are from a particular place, and reminded them that Africa is a huge continent with many countries, with cities and rural areas, with rich and poor, etc. My daughter rolled her eyes and said, " I know, mom."

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I can understand the positive intent in showing kids that some of the things Africans do are fascinating.  It may help offset some of the not-so-impressive impressions they may have gotten elsewhere.

(Also, rather than compare it to adding "O" at the end to "spanishize" words, I would compare it to trying to say "r / rr" like they say it in, say, Mexico, France, Germany, or Brazil.)

It does sound like they were too over-the-top about it in this case.

But honestly, it's hard to know where to draw the line these days between cultural appreciation and stereotyping / appropriation / etc.

I think their mistake was trying to make VBS about Africa [the whole continent] in the first place.  When I first saw the promotions, I was like, why?  Have we run out of interesting things to talk about in the Bible / Christian history?  Are they trying to capitalize on the Lion King stuff that is big this year?  Why?

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6 hours ago, TCB said:

Ok I've read that but I'm afraid I don't really understand how that is "mocking" - maybe I missed something. 

I agree, I don't see it as mocking unless it is presented in a mocking tone.

If someone were teaching Japanese children about English and pointed out some of the English letter sounds and combinations that don't exist in Japanese, then suggested that the children try them out by adding some to their names--that isn't mocking. 

I think there could be a better treatment--don't use descriptions such as "weird" that have a negative connotation, don't emphasize "exoticness" as that otherizes people--but "here's something neat and unusual about this language" feels fine to me. Practicing a few actual words would probably be better than just randomly inserting clicks into names.

I listened to a series of lectures from the teaching company that suggested that the earliest human languages may have included clicks; quite fascinating!

 

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5 hours ago, SKL said:

 

I think their mistake was trying to make VBS about Africa [the whole continent] in the first place.  When I first saw the promotions, I was like, why?  Have we run out of interesting things to talk about in the Bible / Christian history?  Are they trying to capitalize on the Lion King stuff that is big this year?  Why?

The theme is never from the bible exactly. Last year our parish did Shipwrecked, with island animals and the main point was that Jesus Saves.  The year before they did Cave Quest, with cave creatures and the theme was that Jesus is the Light of the world and you should let him be your guide,  the year before that was a Maker theme with builders and inventors I think, and the theme was that you are all made by God. Roar had safari animals, and the them was that God is good. Each animal/creature has a message related to the main theme. 

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I think that if you are not a person of color, you may not understand the visceral reaction that POC with a mother tongue other than English would feel about the language aspect. I can tell you as a Chinese American, this vividly brought back the hundreds of times throughout my childhood when other children pretended to speak Chinese by saying "Ching chong chee." This was by and far the same reaction that was widely expressed in the Asian American faith communities when this aspect of the curriculum was brought up. So, I am gently going to say, perhaps if you are not a POC with a mother tongue other than English, you likely do not have the broader life experience of why using language this way is considered offensive and insensitive by POC. People mistakenly think they are honoring or celebrating a people's language by doing stuff like this, but I have to be honest in telling you that it is not perceived that way at all by POC.  

I doubt that any of you would have had my recent experience of going to a homeschool event with my son and a Korean American family for a Q & A with a World War II veteran and listen to him use the words "Chink," "Gook,"  "Jap,"and "Oriental" over and over and throughout the presentation. I think you can extrapolate what those stories sounded like. My great grandfather fought in WW1 for the United States, and this is what I have to listen to. Our family has been in the US for 5 generations. Despite that, I stayed seated with my son and respectfully listened even though I cringed every time I heard another racist term used. For those who don't know, these are akin to the n-word among Asian Americans. I still had my son shake his hand, thank the veteran for his service and for speaking and the organizers for the event. Not a single word from the organizers to either of us about recognizing what was wrong about his language. This is happening now. These are things are things that I live with every single day even in 2019. Every POC lives with experiences like these every single day.

ETA: I wrote this only in the interest of continuing to have an open conversation about this in the hopes of helping majority culture people understand and hopefully learn about a different perspective.

 

Edited by calbear
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Calbear, that's truly messed up. I hear what you are saying. You have my deep respect for your restraint in that circumstance. 

Not being a minority myself does limit my ability to comprehend this stuff instinctively. My husband is black. When our daughter cried over the assassination of MLK in our history lesson, I cried with her, but my tears didn't carry the tinge of fear that hers did. That horror felt worse for her. 

There is so much that I still don't know. Thank you for sharing.

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5 hours ago, calbear said:

I think that if you are not a person of color, you may not understand the visceral reaction that POC with a mother tongue other than English would feel about the language aspect. I can tell you as a Chinese American, this vividly brought back the hundreds of times throughout my childhood when other children pretended to speak Chinese by saying "Ching chong chee." This was by and far the same reaction that was widely expressed in the Asian American faith communities when this aspect of the curriculum was brought up. So, I am gently going to say, perhaps if you are not a POC with a mother tongue other than English, you likely do not have the broader life experience of why using language this way is considered offensive and insensitive by POC. People mistakenly think they are honoring or celebrating a people's language by doing stuff like this, but I have to be honest in telling you that it is not perceived that way at all by POC.  

I doubt that any of you would have had my recent experience of going to a homeschool event with my son and a Korean American family for a Q & A with a World War II veteran and listen to him use the words "Chink," "Gook,"  "Jap,"and "Oriental" over and over and throughout the presentation. I think you can extrapolate what those stories sounded like. My great grandfather fought in WW1 for the United States, and this is what I have to listen to. Our family has been in the US for 5 generations. Despite that, I stayed seated with my son and respectfully listened even though I cringed every time I heard another racist term used. For those who don't know, these are akin to the n-word among Asian Americans. I still had my son shake his hand, thank the veteran for his service and for speaking and the organizers for the event. Not a single word from the organizers to either of us about recognizing what was wrong about his language. This is happening now. These are things are things that I live with every single day even in 2019. Every POC lives with experiences like these every single day.

ETA: I wrote this only in the interest of continuing to have an open conversation about this in the hopes of helping majority culture people understand and hopefully learn about a different perspective.

 

I do understand somewhat, though I recognize that as a white person I've never faced quite the same prejudices that get applied to people of color--even when we are foreigners and minorities we tend to be seen and treated as privileged foreigners and minorities--at least by adults.

I have lived and attended schools where I was a racial and cultural and linguistic minority, and faced stereotypes and targeted bullying because of it. White Americans are far from universally popular around the world and kids are frequently cruel--and simply uninhibited in their expression of normal human in-group/outgroup bias. I still have a pretty profound negative gut reaction to the mere mention of the country where I spent my junior high years, emotional pathways laid down in childhood run deep.

I still think there is a significant difference between pretending to a person's face to speak their language and trying out unusual aspects of the language where no native speaker is present. It seems to me that a better equivalent to this than kids pretending to speak Chinese in your presence would be a teacher giving a very brief introduction to Chinese characters then instructing kids to make up their own--in a setting where there are no Chinese speakers and the kids are unlikely to ever meet a Chinese speaker. Any "characters" produced would certainly not be authentic Chinese, and I can see an argument for instruction of this type being culturally insensitive--but I do not see it as mocking, which is what the original article claimed. Not all imitation is derisive. Would such imitation contribute to a tendency towards stereotyping? I have no idea. That tendency runs strong everywhere. 

I think you are commendable for working against racial and cultural insensitivity and I'm glad your church listened since the program as written came across as insensitive to you and to others.

ETA random story re racial and ethnic stereotyping: a relative of mine lives and teaches in China. Her students surprisingly frequently mention her blond hair and blue eyes. Except--she has dark brown hair and dark brown eyes. She had to move her son out of a Chinese school to an international school because his teachers were bullying him and telling him he could never learn Chinese because he is a foreigner. He has lived in China since he was a few months old.

Edited by maize
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13 hours ago, maize said:

I agree, I don't see it as mocking unless it is presented in a mocking tone.

If someone were teaching Japanese children about English and pointed out some of the English letter sounds and combinations that don't exist in Japanese, then suggested that the children try them out by adding some to their names--that isn't mocking. 

I think there could be a better treatment--don't use descriptions such as "weird" that have a negative connotation, don't emphasize "exoticness" as that otherizes people--but "here's something neat and unusual about this language" feels fine to me. Practicing a few actual words would probably be better than just randomly inserting clicks into names.

I listened to a series of lectures from the teaching company that suggested that the earliest human languages may have included clicks; quite fascinating!

 


I think here is a minute detail - the language isn't even named.  It's "African".  It's not being attributed to its culture and people or giving the children understanding.  It is removing it to a status that does emphasize nothing more than its exoticness and weirdness.

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3 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:


I think here is a minute detail - the language isn't even named.  It's "African".  It's not being attributed to its culture and people or giving the children understanding.  It is removing it to a status that does emphasize nothing more than its exoticness and weirdness.

Lumping all of Africa together is definitely problematic. Africa is hugely divers in every way.

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5 hours ago, calbear said:

I think that if you are not a person of color, you may not understand the visceral reaction that POC with a mother tongue other than English would feel about the language aspect. I can tell you as a Chinese American, this vividly brought back the hundreds of times throughout my childhood when other children pretended to speak Chinese by saying "Ching chong chee." This was by and far the same reaction that was widely expressed in the Asian American faith communities when this aspect of the curriculum was brought up. So, I am gently going to say, perhaps if you are not a POC with a mother tongue other than English, you likely do not have the broader life experience of why using language this way is considered offensive and insensitive by POC. People mistakenly think they are honoring or celebrating a people's language by doing stuff like this, but I have to be honest in telling you that it is not perceived that way at all by POC.  

I doubt that any of you would have had my recent experience of going to a homeschool event with my son and a Korean American family for a Q & A with a World War II veteran and listen to him use the words "Chink," "Gook,"  "Jap,"and "Oriental" over and over and throughout the presentation. I think you can extrapolate what those stories sounded like. My great grandfather fought in WW1 for the United States, and this is what I have to listen to. Our family has been in the US for 5 generations. Despite that, I stayed seated with my son and respectfully listened even though I cringed every time I heard another racist term used. For those who don't know, these are akin to the n-word among Asian Americans. I still had my son shake his hand, thank the veteran for his service and for speaking and the organizers for the event. Not a single word from the organizers to either of us about recognizing what was wrong about his language. This is happening now. These are things are things that I live with every single day even in 2019. Every POC lives with experiences like these every single day.

ETA: I wrote this only in the interest of continuing to have an open conversation about this in the hopes of helping majority culture people understand and hopefully learn about a different perspective.

 

To clarify, it seems the language thing was dropped from the program in the revisions sent out after people pointed out that it was insensitive.

Also, no racist terms like you are referring to were used. I do think it is beyond comprehension that people are still using such horrid language - old or not. As many have said, if you can learn to use a smart phone you can learn to use appropriate language!

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34 minutes ago, maize said:

Lumping all of Africa together is definitely problematic. Africa is hugely divers in every way.

I'm not sure they did lump it all together. The booklet my daughter brought home for instance had a page specifically pointing out how it was more than just the safari animals being presented, and they talked about this a bit while she was there. (could only get one photo to upload, but there was more, talking about victoria falls, penguins, surfing, etc)

lrKCwCfETAqqLH9JHOw3lA.jpg

 

Edited by Ktgrok
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5 hours ago, maize said:

ETA random story re racial and ethnic stereotyping: a relative of mine lives and teaches in China. Her students surprisingly frequently mention her blond hair and blue eyes. Except--she has dark brown hair and dark brown eyes. 

The blue eyes part makes no sense, if she's standing right there with obviously brown eyes, but the blond hair part I understand.  I, too, have dark brown hair, but when spending time in a country where the vast majority had black hair, I was called "Blondie" several times.  

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6 minutes ago, klmama said:

The blue eyes part makes no sense, if she's standing right there with obviously brown eyes, but the blond hair part I understand.  I, too, have dark brown hair, but when spending time in a country where the vast majority had black hair, I was called "Blondie" several times.  

I think it is that stereotypes can be stronger than the evidence of our own eyes. We literally see what we expect to see.

Which I suppose is the real issue under discussion here--does this VBS curriculum tend towards creating or reinforcing stereotypes? That is problematic because when we look at a person and see a stereotype we fail to see the actual person.

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53 minutes ago, maize said:

I think it is that stereotypes can be stronger than the evidence of our own eyes. We literally see what we expect to see.

Which I suppose is the real issue under discussion here--does this VBS curriculum tend towards creating or reinforcing stereotypes? That is problematic because when we look at a person and see a stereotype we fail to see the actual person.


Spot on! That's precisely the main point behind the critiques of the VBS curriculum. While clearly no one is saying the Group intentionally did this, there are specific aspects of the curriculum that contributes toward perpetuating stereotypes. The larger issue is what is going on in the institutional group think and culture that led to this. I honestly do believe that the writers were well intentioned but lacked the lens and perspective to recognize these efforts were counterproductive to their intent. I do want to make it absolutely clear that I do not believe in anyway that there was any intent. This is why I actually take issue with labeling this as racist. That goes too far in my opinion. I think people can be well intentioned and simultaneously be racially insensitive. This does not mean that they are racists to me. It means that they lack awareness. Things are far too polarized when I do think people are really more on a continuum. When you know better, you do better, but you can't do better if no one ever helps you to learn to know better.

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11 hours ago, calbear said:

I think that if you are not a person of color, you may not understand the visceral reaction that POC with a mother tongue other than English would feel about the language aspect. I can tell you as a Chinese American, this vividly brought back the hundreds of times throughout my childhood when other children pretended to speak Chinese by saying "Ching chong chee." This was by and far the same reaction that was widely expressed in the Asian American faith communities when this aspect of the curriculum was brought up. So, I am gently going to say, perhaps if you are not a POC with a mother tongue other than English, you likely do not have the broader life experience of why using language this way is considered offensive and insensitive by POC. People mistakenly think they are honoring or celebrating a people's language by doing stuff like this, but I have to be honest in telling you that it is not perceived that way at all by POC.  

I doubt that any of you would have had my recent experience of going to a homeschool event with my son and a Korean American family for a Q & A with a World War II veteran and listen to him use the words "Chink," "Gook,"  "Jap,"and "Oriental" over and over and throughout the presentation. I think you can extrapolate what those stories sounded like. My great grandfather fought in WW1 for the United States, and this is what I have to listen to. Our family has been in the US for 5 generations. Despite that, I stayed seated with my son and respectfully listened even though I cringed every time I heard another racist term used. For those who don't know, these are akin to the n-word among Asian Americans. I still had my son shake his hand, thank the veteran for his service and for speaking and the organizers for the event. Not a single word from the organizers to either of us about recognizing what was wrong about his language. This is happening now. These are things are things that I live with every single day even in 2019. Every POC lives with experiences like these every single day.

ETA: I wrote this only in the interest of continuing to have an open conversation about this in the hopes of helping majority culture people understand and hopefully learn about a different perspective.

 

Calbear, your experience mirrors mine, though from a different perspective:  I'm white, and I grew up in a white Canadian suburb.  Where is was normal to believe that this sort of racism was a thng of the past, because we never saw it happen (or recognized it when it did). Then I went away to a very diverse university, and following that lived in the heart of Toronto for 10 years, and married into an Asian family.  I thought my eyes were opened to racism.  Then we moved to a very white semi-rural community (for work), and then we had kids (of colour).  Let me tell you, my eyes are now really open.  I have a raging case of "Enraged white mother syndrome"**.  The crap my DH and kids put up with as a matter of course is, to me, beyond the pale (and to my old self, beyond belief).

Surely a large number , maybe even a majority, of the attendees at the event Calbear speaks of were inwardly cringing at the veteran's language.  But no-one spoke up.  The feelings of the veteran were more important than the feelings of the Asians in the room.  That is systemic, passive white supremacy in action.

**Donna Jackson Nazakawa - thanks for the words for this

 

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I also want to write to say that I am really quite pleased by the tone of the conversation in this thread. I want to commend all of you for your desire to engage constructively. That is what I always try to work towards when I start conversations on these sorts of topics. Though to be honest, I do not start them very often because it does take an emotional toll because of the amount of time and effort. I am simultaneously engaged in this same topic in several forums. One of them is an adoption forum where it is majority white who adopted from China. I am a small minority there who has same race adoption. To be honest, It has been the most challenging place to have this discussion as you can imagine.

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20 minutes ago, wathe said:

 

Surely a large number , maybe even a majority, of the attendees at the event Calbear speaks of were inwardly cringing at the veteran's language.  But no-one spoke up.  The feelings of the veteran were more important than the feelings of the Asians in the room.  That is systemic, passive white supremacy in action.

 

 

It looks obvious now, but that's an interesting perspective I didn't think about before.  But you're right.

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18 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

It looks obvious now, but that's an interesting perspective I didn't think about before.  But you're right.


You know I did not feel comfortable expressing my feelings afterwards about it because of this. I made a trade off decision about whether or not to engage and did not feel I had enough relational credit to do it with a guaranteed productive outcome. And that's often why POC just put up with things all the time. Otherwise, we get labeled as that angry POC. I will also add that I could never say what @HomeAgain said and call it that. I don't have that power. 

Edited by calbear
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12 hours ago, calbear said:

I think that if you are not a person of color, you may not understand the visceral reaction that POC with a mother tongue other than English would feel about the language aspect. I can tell you as a Chinese American, this vividly brought back the hundreds of times throughout my childhood when other children pretended to speak Chinese by saying "Ching chong chee." This was by and far the same reaction that was widely expressed in the Asian American faith communities when this aspect of the curriculum was brought up. So, I am gently going to say, perhaps if you are not a POC with a mother tongue other than English, you likely do not have the broader life experience of why using language this way is considered offensive and insensitive by POC. People mistakenly think they are honoring or celebrating a people's language by doing stuff like this, but I have to be honest in telling you that it is not perceived that way at all by POC.  

ETA: I wrote this only in the interest of continuing to have an open conversation about this in the hopes of helping majority culture people understand and hopefully learn about a different perspective.

 

 

Oh, now I get it.  Before this post, I was wondering how the clicking could possibly be racist or racially insensitive.  Thanks for explaining.  The Chinese “ching chong chee” reference brought it home.  I hosted some kids from China for a few summers and was talking about the kids to my uncle and he did that (ching chong chee).  I felt like I’d bonded with those kids and they felt almost like my own kids to me, and when he did that, my mama bear instinct popped up and instead of seeing it as him absentmindedly trying to sound Chinese, my visceral reaction was that he was making fun of them.  

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10 hours ago, calbear said:


You know I did not feel comfortable expressing my feelings afterwards about it because of this. I made a trade off decision about whether or not to engage and did not feel I had enough relational credit to do it with a guaranteed productive outcome. And that's often why POC just put up with things all the time. Otherwise, we get labeled as that angry POC. I will also add that I could never say what @HomeAgain said and call it that. I don't have that power. 

Or get beat up or shot!  And you perhaps model the same for your children be cause you don't want them to get beat up, or shot, or around here "nipper tipped" (yes, this is a local thing, and those are the words).  Calling out racism/bigotry in the moment isn't always safe for POC.  Calling out racism/bigotry might feel uncomfortable for me, but for my husband it can feel (and sometimes actually is) dangerous.

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@wathe I totally meant to tag you in there as well. Totally brain fog on my part. I think you are super aware as the dominant culture spouse in your relationship. All my in-laws on my husband's side are white. He has four sisters. I don't often get a sense that they are aware like you are. I can't really see them calling out anything because they just aren't wired up that way. Sort of opposite in my family, all of us married Chinese as did most of my cousins as well. 

Whoa...I just read your links. That's just...incomprehensible.

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