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Rebecca

Recommendations for Explicit Instruction in Reading and Writing for a high school aged student?

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I received my oldest daughter's evaluation from Speech and Language today.

This was one of the recommendations: Explicit Instruction in Foundational Reading and Writing Skills

I am wondering if anyone has curriculum suggestions? 

Thank you,

Rebecca

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The only tier 3 fully scripted reading curriculum I can think of is Barton. Otherwise you're looking at OG, Wilson, something that requires training. She would make faster progress with a fully trained tutor or SLP specializing in literacy if you have funding to make it happen. For writing, depends on what they found in the assessment. If she needs to back up and work on narrative language skills, then Story Grammar Marker is what you're looking for. They have narrative and expository materials. There are some other things a reading tutor might use, but it really depends on what the testing was showing.

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PeterPan, thank you.

I have Barton- ( you have replied to my posts about my younger 7 year old daughter)-

If I google Story Grammar Marker- will I find what you are talking about?

I feel like I have to remediate/intervene myself. She was recommended for an hour of SPL therapy a week- but the clinic is mainly looking at working with her function in life- i.e. social language- and not helping with the academic side at all (frustrating to me).  Even though the report stated explicit instruction in reading and writing is needed, they did not recommend therapy for literacy and said it is difficult to find at her age. 

Thank you for the response and resources.

-Rebecca

 

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5 minutes ago, Rebecca said:

PeterPan, thank you.

I have Barton- ( you have replied to my posts about my younger 7 year old daughter)-

If I google Story Grammar Marker- will I find what you are talking about?

I feel like I have to remediate/intervene myself. She was recommended for an hour of SPL therapy a week- but the clinic is mainly looking at working with her function in life- i.e. social language- and not helping with the academic side at all (frustrating to me).  Even though the report stated explicit instruction in reading and writing is needed, they did not recommend therapy for literacy and said it is difficult to find at her age. 

Thank you for the response and resources.

-Rebecca

https://mindwingconcepts.com/ has the Story Grammar stuff and also consider learning about this tool (you might get the gist and not need to buy it, especially if you pinterest about it): https://www.expandingexpression.com/

We are using Thememaker from Mindwing--it's the older kid version of Story Grammar Marker. We have a story braid, the stamp set, the separate Critical Thinking Triangle book, and the Making Connections book (autism collection).

Mindwing integrates the social with the academic to some extent--the Making Connections book really works on the pieces necessary to make inferences and generalizations and to process the social language/thoughts/feelings that appear in writing and real life. 

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41 minutes ago, Rebecca said:

I feel like I have to remediate/intervene myself. She was recommended for an hour of SPL therapy a week- but the clinic is mainly looking at working with her function in life- i.e. social language- and not helping with the academic side at all (frustrating to me).  Even though the report stated explicit instruction in reading and writing is needed, they did not recommend therapy for literacy and said it is difficult to find at her age. 

Yes, I think it would take more than one hour and more than one SLP if she needs quite a bit of work. My ds' IEP is like that, with goals across a lot of areas, and it just makes SLPs wilt to try to hit all the goals in one session. Is she diagnosed on the spectrum? Maybe look for a BCBA or someone experienced with ASD and transitions to add to your team. It can be an SLP, but definitely I would look for a BCBA who specializes in teens and transitions as well. 

Yes, the stuff Kbutton is linking is what you're wanting. You're going to start with the basics of narrative language and then carry them over to expository (non-fiction) writing.

https://mindwingconcepts.com/products/thememaker-expository-text-structures-poster-mini-poster  here's something in poster form that explains what I'm talking about. The narrative structures become the basis for the expository, a nice tidy transition.

https://mindwingconcepts.com/products/discourse-and-thought-development-chart-wheel  another chart, this time also showing narrative. So my two cents would be to look at that progression of narrative and really think about where she's at. Don't try to go ALL THE WAY but get where she's at solid and add a piece to get her moving to the next stage. And get her doing the level of expository writing that corresponds to the narrative. And make sure she can do IN SPEECH and in real life what she's theoretically doing with a prompt.

So like with my ds say I'm working on an action sequence. I want him to be able to do it with a model. I want him to be able to do a narration to that level in real life like after we watch a movie or after a day at camp. I want him to be able to do it for expository/non-fiction. When I have all that, THEN add some more components to move to the next level and do the same thing, getting it applied across all aspects of life.

To me, that way it's durable. It's a big deal in autism where the kids can do it for a model or can analyze the PARTS, but they can't actually get it out. You're at the stage where you've got the clock ticking, end of the line coming. You can hold her till maybe 20, but really it's ticking. So you're going to be thinking how these skills apply to LIFE, how they show up, how they affect her ability to function independently. Writing a 5 paragraph essay won't do her much in life (unless she's headed to college, which maybe isn't your biggest question right now), but being able to say what happened or offer an opinion or hold a conversation or tell about something she saw in a movie would. That's your self-advocacy, leisure skills, social, everything there. 

https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/36164033-the-importance-of-narrative-development-in-school-and-in-life  Something basic to get you started. I'm looking for better.

https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/95877057-autism-awareness-sgm-31-free-resources  More cuz you can learn a TON for FREE if you just read read read on their blog. 

https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/29759873-looking-at-expository-discourse-across-the-grade-levels  info on expository

Ok, I'm a nut, this link had everything, lol. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology Like seriously, it's all there. The manuals flesh it out, give you great graphic organizers, and have lots of helpful charts and things. Like you'll get charts that show the linguistic features to look for in each level of narrative. So like Kbutton is getting at, if there are language issues going on, you may need to build those language structures (vocabulary, syntax, etc.) to be ready to take the next step. Syntax drives meaning, so developing syntax and communicating meaning through writing and more complex syntax go hand in hand. You can't write a description if you can't use adjectives. You can't tell a sequence if you're not solid on verbs. And we're not talking labeling but really using them and having the brain organized to get them out. So if she's having trouble with a stage, then you can see if the language is the problem. 

It's sorta rocket science and sort of not. SGM/MW's materials are pretty tidy. You might get in and find you need more work. My theory is something done well, something applied to life, is at least something that is getting used. My ds isn't cranking out reams and paragraphs right now, but he can finally tell me what happened at camp which is a BIG DEAL. That's a safety thing. So don't get caught up in lists of what ought to be done for school. Make sure she has language for real life. Then, if it's there for real life, it will be natural for it to come out in school work.

Edited by PeterPan

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And you can totally ignore me on going through the stages if you want. It's not like it's right/wrong. It's just what I think. If your gut is like no she'd blossom by seeing the big picture, then go all the way, sure. But the stages are there for you to see where she is and what could be a next step. It also lets you think about why she glitched and stopped there, whether it was syntax or social thinking or what.

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Mindwings looks amazing!

PeterPan, I wrote this before I saw you post above- so I am going to go through what you wrote more carefully.

I am trying to figure out how to know what to choose for her.

For high school, they have the thememaker kit/set. The Making Connections book doesn't seem to be in that kit? 

Can you share how you use these resources?

I appreciate your help so much.

On hand, I have IEW for high school- and she did have success with that at a younger level. I also have Barton, and she has agreed to go through it with me. Barton stated that they begin writing instruction at Level 4- so these are my thoughts for explicit writing/reading instruction.  Does anyone have experience with the writing instruction recommended by Barton at the mid to upper levels?

I also have used Wings to Soar (online) for her last year and am pondering next year.  

Just a note that at this time two separate professionals have stated that they do not think she has autism/she doesn't meet the autism criteria; however they both have diagnosed social pragmatic language disorder. She was also referred for evaluation for attention and memory with educational psychology (on the waiting list).

I am considering a third opinion for overall assessment- and not providing any prior reports if possible because of my experience with the most recent specialist. Mainly because of my deep concern over literacy and language!

Thank you-

 

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So your SCD diagnosis is new to DSM5 and it's sort of ASD-1 you might say. It's literally that she meets all the criteria for ASD but 1. So then you might kind of scratch your head and ask which one and realize that if they had asked enough questions she'd fit under that one criterion also. SCD was created out of thin air, not based on psychs calling for it. There's a whole debate about this reversing of how the DSM is made. Previously they'd query psychs and say what do you see, what do we need, and now they're going the reverse, telling psychs what to shove things into. That's my hack way of explaining it and there are better ways and books on it.

So if you google it, SCD is new, controversial, and sort of a legal mess as far as what it qualifies you for (in states that do disability scholarships for ASD), etc. On a personal level I think the more practical question is what was the minus 1, what wasn't getting hit, and are you seeing it. It's not unheard of for girls to skimp by like that and then at the end they're like oh yeah, we agree, now it's ASD. I know more than one where that happened.

No matter what they call it, reality is the interventions are largely the same and the parts of the brain affected (per the MRIs) are the same, whether you call it ASD or ADHD or SCD or whatever. 

Ok, so you're asking what I use. I own SKILL (Gillam) and the MW ASD set. I do not yet own Thememaker. I spent quite a bit of time reading on the MW blog and watching their free videos, so getting the materials was kind of anti-climatic. The graphic organizers are handy. I've already been to a lot of Social Thinking workshops, so having that integrated is nice but was already pretty obvious for me. So it's great stuff, but I don't need to use it a lot because I already got it, got my brain wrapped around it. 

Thememaker is going to get you expository and the MW ASD kit is going to be narrative plus social thinking. They run some nice sales sometimes, so you could watch to see if they do anything. They'll put them on their FB page. You could call and talk with Marilyn and let her help you decide. She's a lovely person and not in the oversell camp. She might give you some creative, straight advice. They've redone their magnets to include both expository and narrative and the minis are a great value. I would definitely get those along with whatever  you order. 

I think if you use the MW material to repair her narrative language issues, then you can APPLY them to the IEW, if that makes sense. 

2 hours ago, Rebecca said:

I am considering a third opinion for overall assessment-

So I don't know who did your ASD evals before, but maybe find someone who works at an ASD school, someone who does a LOT of autism. That way they can slow down and do the sniff test, not just go by a GARS or even the ADOS. Girls pass the ADOS in droves by high school, and yet there are these questions. So if you want an opinion on that, go only for that, not a jack of all trades, and go for someone who does it a lot and sees it a lot in GIRLS.

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I looked into the DSM criteria for autism (on several different sites including CDC, etc) , and I don't really suspect ASD for her. She really has two main pieces- and that is the social pragmatic language and then the additional language disorder that psychologist diagnosed: mixed expressive/receptive - which manifests in very, very low comprehension of both written texts and then- not as low- but still low- what she hears. She struggles with reading, writing, and the mechanics of language- on the complex level. Complex sentence structures, etc. She struggles with inference and nuance The SPL noted weakness in the area of mental flexibility. She is a concrete thinker. She is a strong, narrative creative writer.  However, she does not write fantasy fiction. She writes fiction in real life settings. She struggles with academic writing. 

I was given advice (elsewhere) to have her start working with a SPL and then, after awhile, see if the therapist felt that an additional autism evaluation was necessary. 

The assessment I recently received seems like a lot of big words with little meaning and application. Vague, obscure, and -- very unhelpful.  The psych assessed (prior to the referred to assessment) her and determined she lacked the rigidity characteristic of autism.

Like I wrote, I am pretty sure I am going to call another place and make an appointment for language therapy- and go from there. 

I am thinking that what I wrote above starts ringing ASD bells for all of you who are experienced with this- so much more than me. So, just keeping on with this journey for her...

 

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You may want to look at the SRA Corrective Reading Comprehension materials for inferences, nuances, sentence structure, and overall comprehension.

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10 hours ago, Rebecca said:

that is the social pragmatic language and then the additional language disorder that psychologist diagnosed: mixed expressive/receptive - which manifests in very, very low comprehension of both written texts and then- not as low- but still low- what she hears.

Ok, so she has been diagnosed with MERLD and SCD. I think you're going to find a lot of help in the ASD community and by looking for materials meant to target ASD, because those are key components of ASD for many kids. 

So then teaching reading and writing to someone with that MERLD is saying give me the FRUITS even though you don't have the roots and the vine to get you there. Yes, she needs significant SLP work and going for SLP therapy is the right thing to do. The question you can be asking is whether there is more you can do at home. I have an entire thread on the boards here detailing what you could do. The SLP can do the Expanding Expressions Tool (EET) which is basically a really concise form of intervention for the language skills they would have worked on (with ABA) had the disabilities been identified early on. It won't work on syntax, but it will work on what ABA will call FFC (feature, function, class) which the SLPs in turn call attributes (adjectives), functions (verbs), categories, etc. So SLPs will say they're working on "vocabulary" but they're working on what ABA (intervention for autism) calls FFC. The deficits are the same and knowing the name lets you find the materials.

Here is a pdf of the primary level of the book I used as a spine with my ds. There is an intermediate level as well, but it's same stuff with more complex language. If this fits her, that's fine. I used this as a spine, fleshing out each chapter, having him read everything aloud and having him answer everything in complete sentences.

http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf2/100_vocabulary_primary.pdf

I also used the SPARC workbooks with this.

 SPARC® for Attributes

SPARC® for Grammar  

SPARC® for Concepts

etc

and I used the narrative language programs we linked you to earlier.

These are all SLP materials, so it's fine to have them do it or fine to buy them and use them yourself or any combination. I worked with my ds about 3 hours a day with the materials and made dramatic progress. We've gotten through all that, so now we need to work on syntactic complexity. Sometimes that's where kids bottom out. They'll have those basics but need help to move from say a 4th grade level of comprehension to something higher. The syntactic complexity increases (use of relative clauses, longer sentences, etc.) and their comprehension drops. It's harder to find materials for that. It's my next step with my ds, but I will be making the materials and approach myself, sigh. 

So yes, if you can find an SLP to work on language, your dc will eat up all the work you can do. And that becomes the food, the fodder to make the reading and writing go forward. Mindwings/Story Grammar Marker will have charts showing what syntax is necessary for each level of the narrative development. So it's really basic in a way, like adjectives are necessary to describe things, so working on adjectives gives you the tool to be able to write a descriptive paragraph. Verbs are necessary to show action, so we can't give an action sequence (or a sequence paragraph in expository writing) till we can use verbs comfortably. So working on the language IS going to bump the reading and writing. 

You can kind of toggle, working on language then using that to go work on reading. At least that's what I have to do with my ds. I teach the skills and then I apply the skills. So reading and writing are the application of the language skills we had to build explicitly with therapy.

Inferences you can work on separately using picture book read alouds, anything you want. Her social thinking also does not need to be tied to the language. 

She's in high school? There are limits on what they'll try to do and what you can do in 30-60 minutes of therapy a week. I would focus on life skills and leisure skills. Can she read enough to text, use social media, fill out an application, etc.? You're going to want some good advice here on where to focus your efforts. My ds needed language work to be SAFE. He couldn't tell us what happened if he went somewhere and had a problem. S*xual abuse is high in this community because they're easily victimized and can't self-advocate. So think about what you need most for her language and think long-term about what makes her life good, what gives her job skills and leisure skills.

Leisure skills are things she does for pleasure or recreation. Like if she can't have EVERYTHING, then have enough reading to give her leisure skills, kwim? Like if she could read well enough to do word search apps, that would give her pleasure. Can she read well enough to do social media or type. And even on reading comprehension, maybe focus on genres that build job skills or leisure skills. Our local therapy place has been doing online/media safety classes. So can she read her Facebook feed with discrimination and tell what is true, what is an ad, etc.? 

Edited by PeterPan
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10 hours ago, Rebecca said:

The assessment I recently received seems like a lot of big words with little meaning and application. Vague, obscure, and -- very unhelpful. 

Sigh, the terms mean a lot to someone who's working in the field and reading the reports. They'd see the CELF scores or whatever the psych used to diagnose the MERLD and they'd know exactly what is going on. Also the SLP sees what happens in the test, so they know what to work on even though the test isn't cranking out specific scores in specific areas. We have testing we do on my ds that is like that. It doesn't crank out lots of sub scores, but just seeing things happen tells the SLP enough.

She will eat up intervention, so the more you want to do the better. Yes work with the SLP, absolutely. And feel free to pick areas and work yourself. 

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If you need a writing curriculum idea, I'd suggest looking at either Writing Skills by Diana Hanbury King or IEW. Both are used often by students with writing difficulties, but they each have a different method. You can consider which might work best. For either of those programs, you would have to use it as a framework to hang your intervention on; meaning use their method but adapt it for her needs. For non-creative writing, she may do well with graphic organizers or learning a basic paragraph structure that she can always follow. That sort of thing does not always result in the most elegant writing, but it helps get it done.

 

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On 5/20/2019 at 8:36 PM, Rebecca said:

I am trying to pick courses for my rising sophomore daughter for next year. I am having such difficulty.

She has a  mixed expressive/receptive language disorder from a private psychologist. Is it true that she should be exempt from the foreign language graduation requirement? The psychologist stated she would write a statement as such.  I will receive more feedback from assessments done at Kennedy Krieger in a couple of weeks - although I am a little hesitant and wondering if I will need to get a second opinion based on the initial conversation/appointment. I am deeply interested in if I should pursue exemption from foreign language and what that will mean for her future.

She doesn't know her path yet; we are thinking a start at the community college (dual enroll by senior year)- and perhaps becoming a certified bookkeeper. She is an introvert and very good at math. However, she also expressed interest in sports therapy or athletic training/injury prevention.  She dances 8 + hours a week and loves to create work out lists for friends and family, etc.

She is my fourth high schooler- and I always plan high school with the end in mind. I am struggling!

-Rebecca

I am going out on a limb here and lifting this quote from your foreign language thread, because I wanted to respond to it in light of the information in this current thread.

To be blunt, I would have concerns about expecting her to be ready for dual enrollment in two years. She is going into 10th, and you are thinking dual enrollment for 12th. That does not seem realistic to me, given the depth of her language disability. I would anticipate for her to need more time in high school level material, not less.

I know you did not ask for opinions about that, but I felt I should say something.

 

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I've only read the original post. I'm not sure whether this will fit your needs, but you might look into The Paragraph Book series for incremental writing instruction. It may not be what you need at all, but I thought I'd post anyway.

http://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/literacy/grammar-writing/the-paragraph-book/about-the-program
https://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?Ntt=the+paragraph+book&N=0&Ntk=keywords&action=Search&Ne=0&event=ESRCG&nav_search=1&cms=1

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If you end up using the Story Grammar Marker ASD kit for narrative language, it would be logical to use their expository materials as well. They flow very nicely. 

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4 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I am going out on a limb here and lifting this quote from your foreign language thread, because I wanted to respond to it in light of the information in this current thread.

To be blunt, I would have concerns about expecting her to be ready for dual enrollment in two years. She is going into 10th, and you are thinking dual enrollment for 12th. That does not seem realistic to me, given the depth of her language disability. I would anticipate for her to need more time in high school level material, not less.

I know you did not ask for opinions about that, but I felt I should say something.

 

I understand your concern, Storygirl!  My idea of dual enrollment for her was just starting very very small with one math course, etc.  I certainly hold any plans loosely! Our CC has remedial courses that she can start with also. And certainly, she would have to place into them too.  I do think the CC is the next step for her after high school. And, I also think she might take a slow course to get to her destination- whatever that will be.  

She is on or above grade level in math. She took an online honors Algebra 1 class this year for ninth and ended the year with an A.  But you are right, her language disability is at the forefront now.

i hope this makes sense, and I deeply appreciate your feedback!

-Rebecca

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Leisure skills are things she does for pleasure or recreation. Like if she can't have EVERYTHING, then have enough reading to give her leisure skills, kwim? Like if she could read well enough to do word search apps, that would give her pleasure. Can she read well enough to do social media or type. And even on reading comprehension, maybe focus on genres that build job skills or leisure skills. Our local therapy place has been doing online/media safety classes. So can she read her Facebook feed with discrimination and tell what is true, what is an ad, etc.? 

 

She can read well enough for social media communication. She regularly emails/skypes/ hangouts/etc. She is complex in terms of placing her need-  she can read- and she can read high level vocabulary- she struggles with meaning/comprehension when it is within the context of a paragraph, etc.  The SPL noted that she read the difficult words with ease but missed the small/simple/easy words- and she referred this as a possible attention issue. The psych noted that she could understand high level language in isolation but when placed within a reading sample- she understood very little.

She is 15. 🙂

She has many practical real- life skills and excels in details. However, the social pragmatic piece shows up because she misses nuance and shades of meaning. 

I hope this makes sense.

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20 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

You may want to look at the SRA Corrective Reading Comprehension materials for inferences, nuances, sentence structure, and overall comprehension.

Do you have a recommendation for where I could purchase this?  Thank you so much.

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1 hour ago, Rebecca said:

Do you have a recommendation for where I could purchase this?  Thank you so much.

A friend of mine used it with her DD, so I’ll need to ask her how she purchased it.  I do know that she bought the entire program.

https://www.mheducation.com/search.html?searchQuery=Sra corrective reading and comprehension&page=1&sortby=relevance&order=desc&bu=seg

Edited by Heathermomster
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2 hours ago, Rebecca said:

She is on or above grade level in math. She took an online honors Algebra 1 class this year for ninth and ended the year with an A.

How is she doing with the word problems?

That's really exciting that she has some areas of strength to lean into. To me that says she might respond well to really clear intervention. That's all the more reason to be getting into something like Story Grammar Marker, where she can get the BIG PICTURE on narrative, how it leads into expository. She might get some big clicks there. She's clearly got some cognitive ability you can harness with explicit instruction. I'd probably get her into that TWM conversation book too. Don't hold back here, not with that kind of potential. 

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2 hours ago, Rebecca said:

She is complex in terms of placing her need-  she can read- and she can read high level vocabulary- she struggles with meaning/comprehension when it is within the context of a paragraph, etc.  The SPL noted that she read the difficult words with ease but missed the small/simple/easy words- and she referred this as a possible attention issue. The psych noted that she could understand high level language in isolation but when placed within a reading sample- she understood very little.

Oh that's really interesting. My ds is just the opposite. When the sample is larger, his comprehension goes up. Well did you say you're getting SLP intervention? Interesting stuff. 

2 hours ago, Rebecca said:

However, the social pragmatic piece shows up because she misses nuance and shades of meaning. 

Yeah, and does it matter to her? LOL I mean sometimes stuff matters more to NT people than it does to the person with the supposed deficits. Meanwhile the person with the "deficits" is looking at the NT people who can't hyperfocus on details, who can't do the things she's strong at, and is like wow y'all have a disability. 

In other words, intervention is sort of more practical if she thinks she needs it or has noticed the need. Otherwise you're telling the horse to drink. You could triage or see what she is noticing is most important. Is there a scenario where SHE wishes she could converse better? You asked about chit chat, but what a horrible thing. You can teach the skill and should, but it might not be something she really wants. I mean it's a really NT kind of thing to want to do. You could see what she wants most.

Have you tried handing her any books on Social Thinking to see what happens? Or offered to let her work through things with a counselor or psych or behaviorist? There are a variety of professionals who will work with teens, any of whom could do what she needs, just depending on who she is comfortable with and who she clicks with and of course who you can get funding for. Having her go through some Social Thinking books with a counselor to work on problems she perceives she has would be a pretty age-appropriate thing to do. And if she perceives herself as having NO problems or questions or things she'd like to work on, that's pretty informative too. But if she does see areas she wants to work on, that's a way to start.

2 hours ago, Rebecca said:

she referred this as a possible attention issue.

Attention is a funny thing. I've been looking back in hindsight and realizing I was on sudafed all through high school and college and grad school. I guess now they're fessing up it's sorta hack ADHD meds, I don't know. Doesn't work on dopamine. I look at myself now (without all that in my system) and wonder how I did all that, lol. If she has attention issues and no aggression or tendency toward that (or COMT defects or or), then sure considering the meds could be an option. Another thing is just doing about 10 minutes of mindfulness daily via a body scan or whatever. I do it while showering or while in the steam room at the gym. It bumps EF and can kind of chill some of that down and help her be more collected and self-aware while working on all these other things. Does she have any issues with realizing how she feels or self-advocating?

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4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

How is she doing with the word problems?

That's really exciting that she has some areas of strength to lean into. To me that says she might respond well to really clear intervention. That's all the more reason to be getting into something like Story Grammar Marker, where she can get the BIG PICTURE on narrative, how it leads into expository. She might get some big clicks there. She's clearly got some cognitive ability you can harness with explicit instruction. I'd probably get her into that TWM conversation book too. Don't hold back here, not with that kind of potential. 

Ah, PeterPan- yes, you nailed it. She STRUGGLES with the word problems. Struggles. However, she is a very hard worker- so she managed to get a grasp/handle on them by rewatching lectures, correcting homework; test corrections were allowed on the regular tests/exams but not on the mid-term/final. She did test corrections for everything she could. The textbook was Foerster. It was hard. 

I didn't sign her up for Geometry with the same teacher because it was so hard- and I had a comfortable line-up for Algebra 2 somewhere else.  However, that instructor (Alg 2) has now stepped down- and I am left wondering what to do. I am worried about Geometry and the Algebra 2 was VERY difficult with the above teacher. They are listed as honors courses - and they most definitely are.  And- the sequence is Alg, Geo, Alg 2 - and I was considering having her take Alg 2 BEFORE Geo. The only bonus with Algebra 2 (at the same place she took this year)- is that her older brother took it this year- so he would be available to tutor her and help her when she got there. The Alg 2 word problems were VERY hard, and I felt very concerned for her- which is why I was switching her. As you can see, I am just really struggling with placing her for next year.  Hope you can make sense of that muddle. 😞 

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So the word problems are an autism thing, the language thing. Sigh. So you can't go DE'ing her for math, despite how bright she is, unless you get the language thing sorted out. I have my ds doing lots of word problems, because I know it's an issue. Of course he also has math SLD, so all the aspects are hard, sigh.

I'll just go out on a limb here and guess that she can do the math but it's the LANGUAGE of the math that is killing her on the word problems. So where is the school on this? This is a ps? Can they get her some intervention? Or you hire a tutor? Or she just maybe stays and works with the teacher another 15 minutes each day? It *might* be that if you come alongside and read the word problems aloud with her and make sure she totally udnerstands the language, that she'll get there. Math tends to have key phrases, so they can be learned. Those phrases can be put on index cards with expansions of the meanings or what they mean to do or symbols or something.

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7 minutes ago, Rebecca said:

the sequence is Alg, Geo, Alg 2

Ok, the geometry will have less language, give her more time to mature, give you more time to do some intervention (like having an SLP or intervention specialist go through the algebra 1 word problems with her to help her learn the language), etc. Geometry is AWESOME for the brain to help them think more logically and sequentially, build working memory, etc. 

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So you are homeschooling, and these are outside providers for math? Do you have to use an outside provider? Instead, could you do MUS geometry next year, which is considered light and evidently can be done in less than a school year (haven't used it, but this is what I've read on other threads)? Easing up on the math for a year allows you some extra time and brain space for her to do language intervention. You could supplement the geometry with work on word problems and with regular review of algebra, so that she does not forget what she learned.

Or if she has to use an outside provider, can you find something that is not an honors level?

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7 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

So you are homeschooling, and these are outside providers for math? Do you have to use an outside provider? Instead, could you do MUS geometry next year, which is considered light and evidently can be done in less than a school year (haven't used it, but this is what I've read on other threads)? Easing up on the math for a year allows you some extra time and brain space for her to do language intervention. You could supplement the geometry with work on word problems and with regular review of algebra, so that she does not forget what she learned.

Or if she has to use an outside provider, can you find something that is not an honors level?

Good thoughts for MUS!!! I do not have to use an outside provider.

Yes. I am homeschooling. Yes, I outsourced math.  I do not have to use an outside provider. Math is her strongest subject, and I wanted to make sure she was getting the instruction that she should. I began outsourcing math because of my experience homeschooling my older three sons. I wish I would have outsourced their math. I regret that I didn't. I began outsourcing math this past school year- and had one in PreCalc (tutor at co-op), one in Honors Alg 2(live online with a local instructor) and same one in regular Geometry (tutor at co-op)-doubled his math because he is heading into Computer Science) , one in Honors Algebra (my Language Learning Challenged DD) (live online with a local instructor), and one in PreAlgebra (live online The Potters School).

Absolutely- it does not have to be honors. I had placed her into a regular Algebra 2- at a co-op we have been a part of for five years- for next year that I felt very, very comfortable with. Unfortunately, the tutor is stepping down, and I am left very unsettled and UNcomfortable. I appreciate your feedback!

I also begin outsourcing other high school courses starting in 9th and 10th grade as a general rule. My 9th grade DD took the Algebra online, and she also took Language Arts Intervention online through Wings to Soar Academy. She was in their adaptive apps (Lexia, Reading Plus, Quill (for grammar), and their Intensive Writing Intervention all year. 

I have to provide intensive instruction to my three younger daughters (age 7, 7, and 6) one of whom has severe dyslexia for 2019/2020. I also have a rising 6th grader who has not been mentioned. He will be taking Saxon 76 next year. 

I share this to provide some context as to why I begin outsourcing in high school. I feel (in general) it is in the best interest of my students based on our unique family.

Also, I am a Reading/Writing Tutor and Math is my weak subject. It is frustrating for me but very true. 

I hope this makes sense! I was considering Math U See for my younger DD but was strongly encouraged to choose Right Start instead. 

Good thoughts about easing my older DD's math so she can focus on language. 

-Rebecca

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She just needs to be able to do the word problems. If you go through the problems you'll see the phrases they use that tell you what operation to use. I wouldn't give up on that but would just back up and help her get that language. The geometry won't have so much, so you have a break from that for a while.

If the honors classes are her intellectual peers and her grades are ok, I would keep her there. 

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On 6/14/2019 at 10:05 PM, Heathermomster said:

A friend of mine used it with her DD, so I’ll need to ask her how she purchased it.  I do know that she bought the entire program.

https://www.mheducation.com/search.html?searchQuery=Sra corrective reading and comprehension&page=1&sortby=relevance&order=desc&bu=seg

So, I bought this and gave my daughter the assessments. According to their procedure, she placed out of this.

However, per their guidelines, she did not have to take assessment 2 which is the one she would have failed. I know that there might not be anyone on this board who has used this resource (corrective reading and comprehension)

but I am just reaching out in case.

-Rebecca

 

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On 6/15/2019 at 12:16 AM, Rebecca said:

Good thoughts for MUS!!! I do not have to use an outside provider.

Yes. I am homeschooling. Yes, I outsourced math.  I do not have to use an outside provider. Math is her strongest subject, and I wanted to make sure she was getting the instruction that she should. I began outsourcing math because of my experience homeschooling my older three sons. I wish I would have outsourced their math. I regret that I didn't. I began outsourcing math this past school year- and had one in PreCalc (tutor at co-op), one in Honors Alg 2(live online with a local instructor) and same one in regular Geometry (tutor at co-op)-doubled his math because he is heading into Computer Science) , one in Honors Algebra (my Language Learning Challenged DD) (live online with a local instructor), and one in PreAlgebra (live online The Potters School).

Absolutely- it does not have to be honors. I had placed her into a regular Algebra 2- at a co-op we have been a part of for five years- for next year that I felt very, very comfortable with. Unfortunately, the tutor is stepping down, and I am left very unsettled and UNcomfortable. I appreciate your feedback!

Also, I am a Reading/Writing Tutor and Math is my weak subject. It is frustrating for me but very true. 

If she liked Foerster, there is a set of inexpensive videos through Math Without Borders. I don't have anything against MUS, but if you wanted to continue Foerster's at some point, and she does well with video instruction, I suggest taking a look at the sample videos. He does a geometry course that is not Foerster's--the books is out of print and included as a .pdf with the videos. He goes over at least some of the solutions in the videos too (but separate from the instruction). It might just be the evens; I can't remember.

I also highly recommend Math Equals Love blog--she has tons of free downloads for math notebooking. We use her stuff after the fact to solidify what's been worked on. Also, Scaffolded Math and Science (TpT) has some good stuff. 

We have a tutor for math, and she has to use between 2 and 4 resources with my son sometimes. He has amazing mathematical thinking that just doesn't conform to typical math, lol! With his language issues (expressive, narrative), he also seems to have an inefficient filing system--storage and retrieval is unique to say the least.

You are a Reading/Writing Tutor?! I think you'd really, really like the Mindwings stuff. 

Your daughter sounds so much like my 2e kiddo with ASD and ADHD and also a friend's daughter that is likely on the spectrum. Both kids have done well with some serious quirks that take some creative intervention. The good news is that if you can find the right intervention, they are ready to soak it in.

8 hours ago, Rebecca said:

So, I bought this and gave my daughter the assessments. According to their procedure, she placed out of this.

However, per their guidelines, she did not have to take assessment 2 which is the one she would have failed. I know that there might not be anyone on this board who has used this resource (corrective reading and comprehension)

but I am just reaching out in case.

-Rebecca

I don't have SRA information, but if she's placing out of it and not "needing" to take the assessment, it could be missing her issues--as a reading tutor, if your daughter wasn't given the Test of Narrative Language, I think you really could watch some videos and do something very like it yourself once you understand what you're watching for. It was very, very eye-opening for my son as well as the psych that tested him. She ordered the test on an evaluation period at my request, and she added it to her typical battery after seeing what it pinpointed with my son. 

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