Please help me to interpret these Wisc V scores

[Strayer]

My son took a WISC V at the age of 6 years 9 months. He did so at the insistence of his public school due to him being very advanced in all subjects in Kindergarten (FSOS age 6 in Australia) . They wanted to access  G & T  services for him. Results came back significantly lower than expected surprising his teacher & head teacher.  I don’t have an issue with his scores and am not trying to change them but My concern is around the Working  Memory and Processing Speed scores.  Are these significantly lower than his other scores that there might be a learning difficulty? The Ed Psych said she thought with scores that he would start to have problems in the classroom about grade 3. 

Currently age 7 (year 1 ) he is a free reader and is passing comprehension tests aged 11.5 and working onwards.  He does some grade 4 maths work and doesn’t seem to have any issues with his working memory or processing speed that I can see. 

I just want to be informed as to what issues we might encounter so that I can help him the best.  Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[PeterPan]

So I can tell you those scores are pretty close to how my dd's came out years ago, and yes she was always a crazy strong reader, usually about 4 grades above grade level. She had very high ACT scores because of those strong reading scores, got great scholarships, and yes is very bright. Her brother's scores are a fuzz higher, so he's in the gifted range. She's had people say the scores were affected by her ADHD, and I don't know. It's possibly an elephant in the room with the spreads you've got there. My dd, despite being so bright, has to take a reduced course load or she just gets very sick from the strain. So we're talking 12-14 credits. That low processing speed bogs everything down when you're that bright, and it makes you fatigue more easily with math, with inflected languages like latin, with anything requiring a lot of processing, sigh.

They didn't calculate a GAI, and it would be a few points higher. I would assume he's as bright as those brightest scores imply and that his processing speed is as weak as that low number implies. Working memory can improve, so you should go ahead and intervene there. You can use games, digit spans, apps, all kinds of things. My advice is to work on it multiple ways, not just one (so use vision, ears, kinesthetic, etc.) and to add distraction and metronome work to it as he gets stronger. With working memory they'll look at something called n-backs, which are measuring how strong it is. So not just do you have the digits, but can you do it with distractions, while motor planning, etc. That's very real life, because he needs to be able to hold his thoughts while he writes, etc.

Ask him how he felt about the testing, if anything happened, whether he was bored, whether he chose to participate, etc. My ds is a pistol, and we've gotten a pretty wide range of scores. Sometimes he decides to dance like a leprechaun rather than engaging. He may have gotten bored or there may have been something going on in the hall that distracted him. 

The good news is his fluid reasoning is really tight with the verbal and visual spatial. So as long as he was actually participating and making reasonable effort, the major 3 are tight together. That's really good, because that fluid reasoning would be clue to some other disabilities you don't want to have. :)  

So is he being screened for ADHD? It's not necessarily something they talk about at 6, and there's even that sort of Bright, Not Broken thought process. But yeah, he might get that diagnosis at some point. The low processing speed relative to IQ is a pain in the butt. Are the standard deviations on that test 10 or 15? Significance will be 2 standard deviations of discrepancy, so you may be close there. By percentages it's a big gap, and yes it's something my dd uses accommodations for etc. It just bogs everything down. We went to calculators around, I don't remember, maybe junior high for math. 

I haven't looked at WISC 5 scores enough to know much about that cognitive proficiency score. That seems like one to look up and figure out.

[Strayer]

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond Peter Pan I  really appreciate it.  

ADHD has not been mentioned (yet) by the school but I have wondered often as he has very high energy and can sometimes be very excitable.  I have read lists of possible flags for ADHD and some of them are definitely true for him

 

I have read a little about low EF and nothing resonates with me.  If anything he seems to do everything 10 miles and hour. Would anyone be able to give me examples of low working memory or processing speed for 7 year old grade 1 boys? 

   

The only suggestion the Ed Psych had for improving this WM was Cog Med but its an awful lot of money to spend to improve something I am not seeing any symptoms of yet. I will look into the other methods you mention.

One thing the Ed Psych sad is that he would continually tap the answer until the next question was on screen (ipad) but this was resulting in the next question being answered as soon as it appeared . Without reading.  I have seen him do this at home too when there is a lag between answering and the next question.  I the end she gave him a squeeze toy to hold and this helped.  She said he was enthusiastic and engaged and this is very much his personality. 

  

One thing that I am not sure how relevant this would be is that hes not very interested in puzzles and really really not keen on jigsaws.  When I can get him to attempt one I find I have to bring his attention back almost constantly   I can sort of understand that there are other more interesting thing he would rather be doing but now I wonder if its connected to EF and he just finds it really hard.

  

 Again thank you for your helpful response, its nice nice to hear your daughter has done so well 

 

   

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Strayer said:

One thing the Ed Psych sad is that he would continually tap the answer until the next question was on screen (ipad) but this was resulting in the next question being answered as soon as it appeared . Without reading.

What test was this for? Achievement testing or the WISC? I thought the WISC was done entirely with the tester. Oh wow, I'm googling this and there is an ipad version!

Ok, so you got an idiot psych. You have NO CLUE if those scores are reflecting his ceiling when he was tapping impulsively through them.

Are you homeschooling him or is he in school? ADHD is a funny thing, because I LIKE my dd's ADHD. Like to me, she's normal.  So it would be interesting to see what would happen to those WISC scores if you put him on meds, because there may be a difference. He sounds pretty honkin impulsive. If it's keeping him out of a program he'd really benefit from being in, then that's sad. 

8 hours ago, Strayer said:

I have read a little about low EF and nothing resonates with me.  If anything he seems to do everything 10 miles and hour. 

I don't think you're quite teasing the issues apart yet. EF is executive function, the part of the brain that helps your organize, keep time, keep track of things, prioritize, do it in order, make life work. So kids with EF deficits will have issues with school BUT these super bright ones COMPENSATE. Like my dd could be ready on time or pack for any event, but she'd start a month ahead of time with these totally typed out lists, lol. Or like me, I have to set alarms. For everything. Like I'm the one forgetting my kid at the convention and getting paged over the loud speakers, lol. 

So if he's in school, they already have a lot of structures that are built in to support these kids. EF deficits are so common that the supports are just built in. That's why the psych is saying you're going to notice it later, as the supports fade and the demands increase. But should it be like oh he's not failing, he doesn't have an issue? No, and that's what the psych is telling you, that the issues are there and will become obvious because your dc is going to have to work so much HARDER to keep up on these issues.

So that's really just bugging me and astonishing that the psych even felt the results were accurate if the dc was tapping iimpulsively through the stupid tech. Glaring ADHD and possibly inaccurate results. So if this was to get into a program, why not say that? They could run a different tool. Problem is for WISC they want a year between administrations I think. Can that vary with ipad vs regular? Don't know, something to check. Maybe they're like if he's that impulsive we don't want him in our GT program anyway, kwim? In the US, well sometimes GT isn't really GT but more like well it's just say it's not just GT. 

Are you looking to pull him out? If you are, then you could work around this. I think if you pulled him out you'd be seeing that impulsivity, yes. 

Ok, so back to your question. The doing everything FAST is the ADHD and not reflective of the processing speed. My dd does it. In fact, anything super fast is usually covering that they're SLOW or having DIFFICULTY. If he could hold his thoughts and handle distractions, he might be able to slow down and do it at a different pace or handle interruptions. Instead, if the processing speed and working memory are low, any interruption is disastrous, causing them to lose their thoughts. So they go fast and want you to stay out of their way. 

With my dd, the processing speed shows up in math, latin, when you ask her a question. You have to stop and give her time to process. You literally have to stop, take a breath, count to 3, and WAIT. But say for something visual, she had vision therapy and will process that really quickly as a splinter skill. But that doesn't mean her ability to process language, math, etc. is going to be fast, only that one splinter skill of visual inputs.

8 hours ago, Strayer said:

hes not very interested in puzzles and really really not keen on jigsaws.  When I can get him to attempt one I find I have to bring his attention back almost constantly 

So could be attention, but could also be a developmental vision problem. He may have some retained reflexes too. So I would test for the retained reflexes and get his vision checked by a developmental optometrist. The reflexes will cost you nothing to check (youtube) and for the vision I would just do the regular annual visit but ask the developmental optometrist to *screen* for issues. Then you'd only do the full developmental vision even if the screening warranted it. 

So with my dd she had the ADHD and retained reflexes and developmental vision problems (convergence, etc.) and it showed us in jigsaws. There are a whole bunch of vision skills there, and we began doing puzzles daily after she had a few months of vision therapy under her belt. So I personally would not *assume* it's attention until you've had his vision checked by a developmental optometrist to make sure there's not a further explanation. There could be layers.

Haha, now you're probably like how can I say he could have a vision problem when he reads so well!! Well there you go. My dd did VT around age 10, because by that point she couldn't mask the issues anymore. But yeah she was always a good reader. For her, as the fonts got smaller the convergence issues became more obvious. At this age/stage print in books tends to be bigger.

8 hours ago, Strayer said:

The only suggestion the Ed Psych had for improving this WM was Cog Med

Yeah, you can look at the data. Working memory is kind of a parlor trick in a way. You can take it up really high, but it only STAYS up at the level that you're actually using it in real life. Stop and it drops back. The CogMed also hits some EF stuff. It's fine, people do it. Yes, it's $$ and yes the results will fade if he doesn't use the skills to hold them. You can get to a similar place basically for free by using Heathermomster's metronome activities and adding in things for working memory. Sometimes vision therapy will bring in EF work. You can find workbooks for EF. The Cogmed is hitting that EF part of the brain, which can give some real LIFE skills kind of improvements, but it's not like it's the only way to target that part of the brain.

Is there anything you want to accomplish with the information? At this age, my sense of something going on with my dd was only very vague. Now in college she uses extensive accommodations, takes meds, etc. So it's ok to collect these subtle signs and think about what to do with them. I could think about what I WISH I had done. I don't know, I'm not sure I have piles of regrets for that age, lol. I could think about it.

Edited June 7, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Ok, so something I can look back and see. There were subtle signs of my dd's EF deficits, and sometimes I didn't hit them head-on and teach her how to do the tasks but just worked around them, doing them for her, assuming she'd figure out later. She didn't figure them out later any better than she had earlier, but I didn't quite have as much skill in breaking tasks into steps and providing support. We can forgive ourselves for not knowing what we didn't know, lol. And of course our goal is to turn out delightfully imperfect children, not perfection. Like it's ok to fail on some things because it leaves them things to keep growing on in life.

But yeah, some things I made her really independent on and some things (like picking up her room, decluttering) I didn't know how to teach. Also she was just really edgy about it and I was working around that. I think anything you dance around with him, buttons you're afraid to push, are important to notice and think about. 

I think we did a lot of things well, rolling with her, letting her pursue her interests, giving her time/resources to get good at something. All that is good, no regrets. She didn't have the maturity for the car, but that's not an age 6 thing, lol. I'm more in the wait till grad school, and my dh doesn't think that way, lol.

But really, your psych is right. It will show up hard in a few more years. At that point we were seeing a lot of fatigue with school work, so she'd have Mary Poppins days. 

If he doesn't fit in the school GT program, maybe just enrich him at home and meet him where he is. 

[maize]

My oldest tested with processing speed in the 9th percentile. Her cognitive scores were in the top percentiles.

In her case I think some of it is partly anxiety driven, she wants to make sure everything is right so takes a long time to think through things. There are executive function issues as well.

It hasn't hurt her academic progress but she does need plenty of time to get stuff done.

[Terabith]

I have a kid whose working memory and processing speed are significantly lower than her other scores.  But despite doing her absolute best (everyone agrees) on every test, we've had a WIDE range of scores.  Like from 140-80 depending on the test. If he's performing that high achievement wise, I would think that his actual cognitive skills are higher than that test indicates.  Everyone agrees that the higher scores are far more representative of her actual skills.  Working memory actually makes more difficulty for her than processing speed, but she has some pretty complex other issues.

[Arcadia]

14 hours ago, Strayer said:

The Ed Psych said she thought with scores that he would start to have problems in the classroom about grade 3. 

Currently age 7 (year 1 ) he is a free reader and is passing comprehension tests aged 11.5 and working onwards.  He does some grade 4 maths work and doesn’t seem to have any issues with his working memory or processing speed that I can see. 

 

My guess is that if he is doing grade 4 maths work in year 1, he is likely to be doing at least grade 6 maths in year 3. That might be when he needs more time to complete his maths work. My kid who has lower processing speed compared to his brother did take much more time for maths once he reached prealgebra.

10 hours ago, Strayer said:

One thing the Ed Psych sad is that he would continually tap the answer until the next question was on screen (ipad) but this was resulting in the next question being answered as soon as it appeared .

One thing that I am not sure how relevant this would be is that hes not very interested in puzzles and really really not keen on jigsaws.  When I can get him to attempt one I find I have to bring his attention back almost constantly   I can sort of understand that there are other more interesting thing he would rather be doing but now I wonder if its connected to EF and he just finds it really hard.

 

The Ed Psych should have controlled the testing better. She could have at least remind your son to stop tapping especially for a child that young. My oldest is very sedentary but he would have tapped too at age 7 out of boredom.

“Assessments are administered using two iPads: one for you and for your client. The administrator uses the first iPad to score responses and control visual stimuli. The client uses the second iPad to view and respond to stimuli.” https://www.pearsonassessments.com/professional-assessments/digital-solutions/q-interactive/about.html?tab=how-it-works

Even though both my kids have quite high visual spatial scores, they rather create with Legos and Zoomtools than do jigsaws and puzzles. To them, jigsaws and puzzles are close ended and they wanted to create.

I do think the iPad version would have been more suitable for much older kids. I won’t expect a 7 year old to have the attention span to not be bored with testing using the iPad especially if a child is used to playing games on a tablet. 

[Megbo]

I don't have any experience with the iPad version of the WISC-V, but a few thoughts I had about his scores: 

Were there big gaps between his subtest scores in any area? For example, if he scored 17 on Block Design and 9 on Visual Puzzles, he could have underperformed on Visual Puzzles due to inattention, rushing through the questions, tapping the iPad too much, etc. His "High Average" scores may be an underestimate of his ability in some areas. 

If his Auditory Working Memory is 108, but his overall Working Memory Index is 88, he presumably did very poorly on Picture Span? A low score in visual memory, when he doesn't have any issues with visual spatial reasoning or general working memory, makes me think that it might have more to do with attention than his actual working memory abilities.

The Processing Speed Index measures how many items the child completes correctly in a set amount of time. Kids can score poorly either by completing few items *or* by making many errors. My son scored "Very Low" on one subtest when he was 7 (pre-ADHD meds) because he made so many mistakes and "Average" on a similar subtest that was more engaging. This year, he scored "Average" on both subtests. 

[Storygirl]

More about the processing speed score -- One of the subtests that goes into the processing speed results is called the coding test. Good hand-eye coordination and pencil control are necessary to do well on this test (you can google it and see an example). Does your son have problems with handwriting or other fine motor tasks, such as tying shoes or cutting with a knife or scissors? If so, that can make that score lower. For this reason, processing speed does not always indicate slow thinking.

The working memory and processing speed are definitely lower than the other scores, and that may mean that he will need extra time to complete tests and assignments. But because his overall scores indicate he has high average IQ, I think his scores indicate that he should do well in school generally. He may not meet the IQ cut off for the gifted and talented program, depending upon the requirements, but he should be perfectly fine in the regular classroom, and I would predict that he will be able to be in the advanced levels of junior high and high school classes.  His FSIQ and GAI are the kind of composite IQ scores, so when you look at those and know that 100 is average, you can clearly see that his scores are higher than average. An IQ of 121 is superior, or higher than average, and he is very close to that.

I would also suspect ADHD. I'm sorry the teachers were disappointed in his scores, but there is no reason for you to feel disappointed; there is so much potential showing. Seeing if he qualifies for an ADHD diagnosis and treating it, can help those areas that are affected by the lower processing and working memory.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Storygirl

[kbutton]

19 hours ago, Strayer said:

One thing the Ed Psych sad is that he would continually tap the answer until the next question was on screen (ipad) but this was resulting in the next question being answered as soon as it appeared . Without reading.  I have seen him do this at home too when there is a lag between answering and the next question.  I the end she gave him a squeeze toy to hold and this helped.  She said he was enthusiastic and engaged and this is very much his personality. 

I'll read the rest of people's respones later, but this is shocking. First, it's hallmark ADHD impulsivity, and I think it's totally acceptable for the tester to show the stuff to the kid, but for the tester to input answers (at least for some portions). I mean, the paper version of the WISC assumes the tester will do that for all but the portions where the person being tested has to use pencil and paper. Besides impulsivity, a child with coordination issues could completely invalidate that test through sheer clumsiness, and any lag on the part of processing on the tablet or computer could really gum things up!!! Ugh. Our psych has some techniques to help kids not answer impulsively, but I don't know what they are. She works with a lot of gifted kids with ADHD.

I think you'd be surprised what might happen with a different psych and some ADHD meds, though obviously you don't want to do meds to get a better number on a test. 

Yes, those WM and processing scores are a BIG DEAL functionally. 

On a side note, if there were reasons to think these scores are spot on (and you have lots of evidence they are not), there are kids with scores in that range that perform extremely well in school when taught by good teachers using evidence-based practices. 

[Storygirl]

I wanted to add that even though the test results were not what was expected, the fact that he was tested is a blessing in disguise. It's often very difficult to convince a school to run evaluations on a student who is doing WELL, even if the parent realizes there is an underlying struggle that is preventing the student from performing up to capabilities. The fact that the school has already identified the lower processing speed and working memory and is on alert for him possibly having greater struggles in later years -- this is a huge benefit, actually, even though it seems like a disappointment now. Because it puts him in position to receive the kind of accommodations that will help him, and you won't have to fight for that right, the way that many parents of bright students must, when schools refuse to recognize things.

 

[kiwik]

I would have little faith in it.  An iPad test for a 6 year old?  You can't use this test again for a year? Or two? But whatever you do next time insist on the traditional method.  Also they are pretty good scores showing a very bright kid.  The WM could show ADHD or nothing. Ask them to calculate GAI though as it is more indicative than FSIQ.