What to cover, ASD 5th grader

[Seeking Squirrels]

My nearly-11-yo was just diagnosed with ASD. It's been a long time coming, a long time suspected. (I even posted here when she was evaluated before and received a dx of SPD, ADHD, GAD, a language issue, and social communication issue and yet not ASD.)  The last couple of months I have been greatly wavering in my goals of homeschooling. I started strongly leaning to an unschool approach for a while, but I do think she needs more structure than that. 

Next year she will be attending a hybrid private school for homeschoolers. It is 2 days a week from 9-3. They do project based learning. I've been following the school for a while on social media and talked to parents who go there. I'm really excited for it and both her therapist and neuropsych think it will be great for her. But now I'm not sure what I should cover at home. We'll only have three days at home and one of those days will have a morning swim lesson about half of the year and an afternoon class most of the year. I plan on having a picnic and library time between the classes. So really we're down to two days.

I obviously cannot smash a full week of full load into two days. And I shouldn't need to if we consider what she's getting at the hybrid school. So what DO I do? Just reading, writing, and math? She does fine with understanding math concepts though it is a struggle to get through the actual work. She loves to read but only if it's what she wants to read, not if it's something I give her. Writing is positively evil as far as she is concerned. She loves science and is meh about history. She is obsessed with greek mythology and even medaled this year on the NME. 

Though she'll be 11 going into next year, I think we are going to be considering it 5th grade due to maturity and ability to handle work-load. So what do I do with our two home days?

[PeterPan]

I'd add at least another day of the week by requiring some work on the weekends. Kids in school do homework, and weekend work will give you continuity and reduce transitions. With both my kids, just 1 hour on Sunday can be really, really helpful in making Mondays go better. 

So it sounds like you need to work on writing and figure out *why* she's having problems with writing. Also you'll let her work on the NME stuff or some other goal like that she has. Will she have homework from the co-op? If she does math, writing, mythology any day she's not at co-op, that's a good amount. Then she'll have co-op homework and reading.

For the reading, consider a reading diversity checklist. That's what I did with my dd around that age. She can read all about mythology if she wants, but try to get it across genres. With my dd, I gave her the checklist (non-fiction, poetry, science-fiction, biography, poetry, etc.) and said make sure you read something in each genre each week, boom done. With my ds, I use https://fab.lexile.com/ and find the books myself. I think if she's such an avid reader (which my dd was) I wouldn't fret too much. It's going to cover over a LOT of other issues.

On the writing, is the issues the organization, the language, the getting it out, the typing/writing, all of the above? For my dd, for whom getting it out was wicked hard, metronome work around that age was lightning bolt amazing. I had this theory that she needed to be able to motor plan (type/write, in this case bouncing the balls and clapping), organize her thoughts (EF, what metronome targets), handle distractions (hello, your brother is running around), and use language (talking to her, getting her thoughts out for writing). So I worked her up to being able to do all that together using Heathermomster's metronome instructions. It was free and stunningly powerful.

Around that age I also paid her to learn to type. We finally switched to Dvorak, an alternate keyboard, because QWERTY, handwriting, nothing was working. She still uses Dvorak and considers it a superpower and a super sneaky thing, haha, because it sabatoges her computer from anyone else using it, lol. I'm teaching my ds Dvorak, and he's even slower going than she was, if you can imagine. 

So that's why I'm saying, just having btdt a bit, don't worry about being "full" in your curriculum approach. Instead target some skills that would UNLOCK a lot of other stuff. If she can type proficiently, suddenly writing, online classes, looking for books to read, reading current events on the news, everything else will go better. That's another thing I did, having her subscribe to email news services. Just quietly find ways to get her to read diversely, chaining from what she already likes. Like if she likes mythology, then start with news about Greece, kwim? Like you'd be amaze that some of these countries have their own newsletters they send out. Chain from what she's interested in to what she doesn't yet realize she'll enjoy.

Can she cook? How is she on life skills? And where is she for social skills and emotional regulation? Like I said, you have a lot more important things to work on than academics right now. It sounds like she's smart enough to fill in her own cracks on academics, so you need to help make happen what she won't make happen otherwise. Like get her a social thinking book to read each week. Set her up with some counseling so she can debrief and work through issues she's going to have at that co-op. That kind of thing. That's where you want to put your time.

Edited June 1, 2019 by PeterPan

[Seeking Squirrels]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

22

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'd add at least another day of the week by requiring some work on the weekends. Kids in school do homework, and weekend work will give you continuity and reduce transitions. With both my kids, just 1 hour on Sunday can be really, really helpful in making Mondays go better.  I'm game to try this. Especially for math. It just takes her so long to get the work out. Two days a week would not get us far. We should have time on our out day to do math and maybe even a bit of something else before we go to swimming. If I also add in a weekend day that would give us four days for math. 

So it sounds like you need to work on writing and figure out *why* she's having problems with writing. Also you'll let her work on the NME stuff or some other goal like that she has. Will she have homework from the co-op? If she does math, writing, mythology any day she's not at co-op, that's a good amount. Then she'll have co-op homework and reading.  Occasionally she might have things to do for school. Since it's project based and kid-led it just depends on what the kids decide to do and if they need to take any of it home to work on between class days.  

For the reading, consider a reading diversity checklist. That's what I did with my dd around that age. She can read all about mythology if she wants, but try to get it across genres. With my dd, I gave her the checklist (non-fiction, poetry, science-fiction, biography, poetry, etc.) and said make sure you read something in each genre each week, boom done. With my ds, I use https://fab.lexile.com/ and find the books myself. I think if she's such an avid reader (which my dd was) I wouldn't fret too much. It's going to cover over a LOT of other issues.  I like this idea. I intended to do something similar with library days and what they check out but I never followed through. That would be a good way to get in other things. I wouldn't quite call her an avid reader, but if it's something she likes she'll read for an hour or two before bed. During the day it's just a matter of getting her to slow down and get started. It's like getting a preschooler to take a bath. They love it but they don't always remember how much they love it so you have to push some to get them started but then they don't want to stop. 

On the writing, is the issues the organization, the language, the getting it out, the typing/writing, all of the above? For my dd, for whom getting it out was wicked hard, metronome work around that age was lightning bolt amazing. I had this theory that she needed to be able to motor plan (type/write, in this case bouncing the balls and clapping), organize her thoughts (EF, what metronome targets), handle distractions (hello, your brother is running around), and use language (talking to her, getting her thoughts out for writing). So I worked her up to being able to do all that together using Heathermomster's metronome instructions. It was free and stunningly powerful.
The physical act of writing is the biggest hurdle, whether handwriting or typing. Her handwriting has improved dramatically over the last year but she still hates doing it. She has worked on typing but is only at about 5wpm so it's slow going for her. I've tried scribing but she sometimes goes the opposite direction to not getting anything out and instead rambles on.  Organization is a work in progress but she's getting better. She struggles with narration so it usually doesn't flow well and reads more like a few bullet points. Her sentences can be very formulaic. This all often comes down to if she perceives there to be a right/wrong or not. If she is trying to summarize something she's seen/done/read/watched, sentences will be formulaic and few. If she is given a prompt to follow, she will have more to say, but it will still read like bullet points. If she is telling her own story without parameters, she will ramble on and on. The sentences won't be *as* formulaic and it won't be bullet points, but it may or may not be a linear story that makes any sense, more like an "oh yes and this. Oh but this too!" IF I'm scribing. She will still keep it pretty short and simple if she has to write it herself. I have never heard of metronome work, I'll have to look that up. 

Around that age I also paid her to learn to type. We finally switched to Dvorak, an alternate keyboard, because QWERTY, handwriting, nothing was working. She still uses Dvorak and considers it a superpower and a super sneaky thing, haha, because it sabatoges her computer from anyone else using it, lol. I'm teaching my ds Dvorak, and he's even slower going than she was, if you can imagine. I'll have to consider paying her to type to see if we can get her wpm to a level she isn't frustrated by. 

So that's why I'm saying, just having btdt a bit, don't worry about being "full" in your curriculum approach. Instead target some skills that would UNLOCK a lot of other stuff. If she can type proficiently, suddenly writing, online classes, looking for books to read, reading current events on the news, everything else will go better. That's another thing I did, having her subscribe to email news services. Just quietly find ways to get her to read diversely, chaining from what she already likes. Like if she likes mythology, then start with news about Greece, kwim? Like you'd be amaze that some of these countries have their own newsletters they send out. Chain from what she's interested in to what she doesn't yet realize she'll enjoy.

Can she cook? How is she on life skills? And where is she for social skills and emotional regulation? Like I said, you have a lot more important things to work on than academics right now. It sounds like she's smart enough to fill in her own cracks on academics, so you need to help make happen what she won't make happen otherwise. Like get her a social thinking book to read each week. Set her up with some counseling so she can debrief and work through issues she's going to have at that co-op. That kind of thing. That's where you want to put your time.  She enjoys baking sweet stuff, not a lot of cooking of food. What she will eat is quite limited so she's really not interested in making anything she doesn't want to eat. She can make macaroni and cheese though. For baking she understands how to follow a recipe and I usually just have to help her with measurements and not skipping steps. She does pretty well with most life skills as long as we remind her of all the steps. Things that need a lot of coordination are a bit of a struggle but she's made a lot of progress there, too. I suppose I'd have to look up some age-appropriate lists to see if we're missing anything since she's my oldest.  Social skills need help. Emotional regulation needs a lot of help. I thought we were doing pretty well with emotional regulation and then apparently hormones hit and turned things upside down. It feels like we've taken several giant steps back on that one.  

I'm all for focusing more on these things than solid academics right now. They want her to do ABA therapy, which I've heard both good and bad things about. I have a lot of research to do before I decide on that. 

[PeterPan]

45 minutes ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

Occasionally she might have things to do for school. Since it's project based and kid-led it just depends on what the kids decide to do and if they need to take any of it home to work on between class days.  

Wow, two days a week of that is a lot. We have a lady around here offering a service like that, so I can see why you're drawn to it. Just thinking about the balance and what else needs to happen. My ds really struggles with transitions, and every time I've tried to do good things that break up our flow, we really have problems. With my ds it's better to have consistency, even if it means we miss some great things. But you know look at your dd and how she is with transitions.

47 minutes ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

They love it but they don't always remember how much they love it so you have to push some to get them started but then they don't want to stop. 

Yes, initiation humps and transition issues are things we expect with ASD. That's why I'm saying to be very careful. But you already know that. :)

48 minutes ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

She struggles with narration so it usually doesn't flow well and reads more like a few bullet points. Her sentences can be very formulaic.

Ok, so I would get speech therapy for narrative language and syntax and dump the co-op. Just saying. 

At least that's what you're saying here, that she has narrative language deficits and struggles with more complex syntax. You're not gonna be milking rocks and beets here, kwim? If you want the language to come out, it has to be there. So you can do it yourself, but your schedule is too broken up. The language issues are WAY higher than a co-op, even if the co-op is great in some ways. 

For narrative language testing, you're looking for the TNL=test of narrative language. For the syntax, look for the SPELT=structured photographic expressive language test. For the narrative language intervention, your options are Story Grammar Marker or SKILL. There's also a $10 packet you can buy on TPT. SKILL is open and go, where Story Grammar Marker takes it farther, showing how you expand the concepts from narrative to expository writing. You can learn a TON just by reading all the free articles on the SGM blog. They have charts for narrative language development, everything there. So you can look at them, see about where she is, and decide what your next step is. They also have the charts (free) to see how narrative language and expository relate. You'll see which structures she's ready to do IMMEDIATELY based on where her narrative language is.

It can be kind of an EF/executive function thing to ramble and have your story all over the place. Also though it's very spectrum, not seeing how the points flow, getting stuck on details, not seeing the big picture of how the steps connect, not thinking about the audience or what the listener knows, etc.

 

52 minutes ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

I'll have to consider paying her to type to see if we can get her wpm to a level she isn't frustrated by. 

Well part of going to Dvorak was to stop the hunt and peck mess. I locked the keyboard down so she could only type in Dvorak, and the keyboard itself was QWERTY, meaning hunt n peck didn't work. With my ds, I'm going VERY slowly. He has trouble moving his fingers and isolating them, so it's pretty rough. For my dd, Mavis Beacon, which has a disk with Dvorak lessons, worked great.

 

58 minutes ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

She does pretty well with most life skills as long as we remind her of all the steps.

You might look at Cooking to Learn. It's a little pricy, but it comes with LA worksheets that are terrific. As we make the recipes, I am putting them in page protectors to make my ds a cookbook of all the things he knows how to make. He's very proud of what he can do! Some of it is really basic, like making a root beer float, but the point is he could do it INDEPENDENTLY.

1 hour ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

Emotional regulation needs a lot of help.

The Interoception curriculum from Kelly Mahler is what you're wanting.

So I see a lot of goals here. What is the co-op contributing toward these goals? Or you need her there so you can go work or something? I'm just pushing the envelope on that, because I'm seeing stuff here that is pretty important that is going to need some work. That co-op gig might be a real distraction. Do you kind of feel like you're scared and don't know what to do, so you're like get her out of here for a bit? I'm just asking, because I've btdt with my ds. And sometimes what happens is I step back, realize what needs to be done, formulate a plan, and then I'm ready to do it. But you didn't have a plan, so it might be like wow I get a break a bit. But I'm just suggesting she's in a really PRIME INTERVENTION WINDOW and there's a lot of VALUABLE STUFF you could be doing, stuff that will not get done if you're distracted and broken up going 40 places or 2 places. 

-narrative language with Story Grammar Marker

-syntax work--without testing, I would suggest you start by reading picture books with her 30-45 minutes a day using a very low lexile and working up. You read to her and you get her to apply the SGM skills, make inferences and predictions, use complete sentences, use her language. That's what I'm doing with my ds. I'm also in favor of great language intervention by an SLP or with speech therapy materials, sure. But I'm just saying if SLP hours are not an option, that's something you can do for free just by using the library and you might not realize how incredibly valuable it would be.

-interoception work. Kelly Mahler has a terrific new curriculum, highly recommend. You could pair it with these picture books https://www.weareteachers.com/15-must-have-picture-books-for-teaching-social-emotional-skills/ I would start by working through the Interoception materials with her, and meanwhile do some reading on Zones. Like maybe don't even plunk out for it, or do if you want. You could see if the Social Thinking people or Zones of Regulation will be doing workshops near you. Anything like that would be rocket fuel for you and up your confidence and skill set immensely. They do parent discount pricing and you'd learn a TON.

Well that's enough from me. Value what you can do with her. If you get the vision for things you can do with her that would help her, I think you'll be able to decide where the co-op fits in that.

[PeterPan]

ABA is sometimes umbrella term and they'll actually be hitting the things I was talking about, like narrative language and syntax. Personally, I would do ABA hours in-home and dump the co-op entirely. You're going to get more progress from her working 1:1 with people with a plan than you will from free-wheeling, unschooling stuff right now. You've got some really specific needs. The issue is finding a BCBA you click with. Some are like die-hard DTT kinda purists, and some are really umbrella about ABA, like ours. So ours comes in and PLAYS with my ds. It really depends on the behaviorist, the goals. If you're needing a break, they could help carry some of that load and accomplish these goals. If you can get funding and worker hours, I'd dump that co-op in a heartbeat. 

Other things our workers do? Play board games, work on imaginative play, work on self-regulation, work on waiting, take him on outings, work on generalizing the skills to other settings. Sometimes kids really like a fresh face. They could implement that Cooking to Learn for you and you'd get independent living skills and LA at the same time. It does not have to be DTT. With my ds, DTT informs us how he learns, why he needs short sessions and breaks, but it's not really exactly what he needs. My ds EATS UP high quality 1:1 interaction. His behavior is calmer when he gets that, and his need is really a lot higher than any one person has the energy to provide. Bringing in workers is GREAT for him, and the issue is to say on top of what they're doing. They'll alternate play and demands, getting him chilled, getting him ready to comply. It does not have to be aversive. You don't have to work with someone like that. You have to find a behaviorist you mesh with philosophically.

[Seeking Squirrels]

 

 

 

14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

 

It's not a co-op, it's a private school. We'll be paying tuition and dropping her off. Both the neuropsychologist who tested her (who is pro-homeschool and homeschooled her 7 kids) and her therapist who sees her every two weeks thinks this will be a great thing for her. It will get her around other kids regularly, the same kids for several hours twice a week. They focus a lot on teamwork, cooperation, collaboration, and exploring ideas. They deal with discipline issues by helping the kids work through whatever is causing the issue. They have teachers on staff who act as guides to help the kids achieve their goals and teach them any skills they need to get there. The school sets a theme each quarter and they explore within that. It's guided, not just glorified daycare where the kids just play all day. They do a lot of making. Art, structures, building things.... This is right up DD's ally.  I'm actually really looking forward to it for her. My younger will also attend but only one day a week. This will end up giving me one day a week child-free which is a nice bonus, but not the reason. 

Her syntax is actually just fine, especially in speech. In writing she just seems to follow the same structure for each sentence if that makes sense. So she's not doing anything wrong, it just doesn't vary. Maybe I'm not explaining well. I will look into all of these resources you've listed and also talk to her therapist to see where she thinks we need to focus. At least to get us through until we have the aba eval and then we can go from there. 

[kbutton]

20 hours ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

It's not a co-op, it's a private school. We'll be paying tuition and dropping her off. Both the neuropsychologist who tested her (who is pro-homeschool and homeschooled her 7 kids) and her therapist who sees her every two weeks thinks this will be a great thing for her. It will get her around other kids regularly, the same kids for several hours twice a week. They focus a lot on teamwork, cooperation, collaboration, and exploring ideas. They deal with discipline issues by helping the kids work through whatever is causing the issue. They have teachers on staff who act as guides to help the kids achieve their goals and teach them any skills they need to get there. The school sets a theme each quarter and they explore within that. It's guided, not just glorified daycare where the kids just play all day. They do a lot of making. Art, structures, building things.... This is right up DD's ally.  I'm actually really looking forward to it for her. My younger will also attend but only one day a week. This will end up giving me one day a week child-free which is a nice bonus, but not the reason. 

Her syntax is actually just fine, especially in speech. In writing she just seems to follow the same structure for each sentence if that makes sense. So she's not doing anything wrong, it just doesn't vary. Maybe I'm not explaining well. I will look into all of these resources you've listed and also talk to her therapist to see where she thinks we need to focus. At least to get us through until we have the aba eval and then we can go from there. 

I am a little late to the conversation--I didn't see it this weekend. Honestly, I think that the teamwork, work through discipline issues, etc., all sound okay, but I think that approach is likely to leave her EXHAUSTED at home. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but I think you should be aware of that.

Regarding the bolded, are they going to do serious, foundational work with language? My guess is that they'll do contextual intervention with bit and pieces of "try this" that will seem to work because she's doing it with others, and unless it's with someone who "gets" this autism language dynamic where things seem fine but aren't really, it's not going to be deep enough, or come from the right angle. Not like 1:1 therapy over time with someone that has done appropriate testing and knows this stuff well.

From what you've described, Peter Pan's recommendations for language work are something I would second (we've not done Dvorak keyboarding--wasn't necessary here), though it sounds like syntax might not be an issue for your daughter. My son has no syntax issues but has writing issues that are very much what you describe, and everyone glossed over them, used "typical" intervention--nothing worked until we went ground zero on narrative language with the Story Grammar stuff from Mindwings (actually, we started with Thememaker). 

Moreover, he did YEARS of extra work that led nowhere because he seemed fine, and they thought he just wouldn't transition from doing the work with someone to doing it solo. Now he does independent work with language when he's had appropriate therapy. A situation like what you are describing would've continued to MASK my son's difficulties even further, not helped them out. 

As far as the working out discipline issues together, etc. that's something you might be able to do at home. We did that at home. We also had a behaviorist (vs. a speech therapist) do the social skills stuff via tutoring. Having an insight into the functions of behavior gave the behaviorist an edge when talking to my son about how to cope with social stuff. 

We have an excellent psychologist that tests my kids and has a lot of experience with autism in kids who are borderline, but even she was not seeing the language piece as anything other than maybe EF. Testing with the TNL and the TOPS adolescent version (Test of Problem-solving) were super eye-opening for her. 

[kbutton]

20 hours ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

Her syntax is actually just fine, especially in speech. In writing she just seems to follow the same structure for each sentence if that makes sense. So she's not doing anything wrong, it just doesn't vary. Maybe I'm not explaining well. I will look into all of these resources you've listed and also talk to her therapist to see where she thinks we need to focus. At least to get us through until we have the aba eval and then we can go from there. 

I would make a guess that she's not subordinating ideas or picking out the most salient information, particularly given what you described below.

On 6/1/2019 at 10:13 PM, Seeking Squirrels said:

She struggles with narration so it usually doesn't flow well and reads more like a few bullet points. Her sentences can be very formulaic. This all often comes down to if she perceives there to be a right/wrong or not. If she is trying to summarize something she's seen/done/read/watched, sentences will be formulaic and few. If she is given a prompt to follow, she will have more to say, but it will still read like bullet points. If she is telling her own story without parameters, she will ramble on and on. The sentences won't be *as* formulaic and it won't be bullet points, but it may or may not be a linear story that makes any sense, more like an "oh yes and this. Oh but this too!"

The Mindwings/Story Grammar/Thememaker stuff is perfect for all of this. The Critical Thinking Triangle is a very powerful tool. We bought the add-on product for that along with Thememaker. I wondered for a while if we would need an additional tool for cohesive ties (subordinating and connecting words), but once the Critical Thinking piece started to get better, the subordinators and connectors came on their own. 

Regarding the bolded, my son is much more able to narrate or list important details without requiring parameters of what is right or wrong in the context. It also helps with rambling for stories.

Right now, we're working on scaling his ability to make his narrations/summaries different lengths and differing levels of detail.

Really, the tool his amazingly powerful. Knowing what I do now, I would consider giving a kidney to have had this tool when he was 11. If he'd had it when he was 9...I can't even imagine.

So much lost time. So much "he seems fine" or "he can answer all my [leading/multiple choice/Socractic] questions" without realizing that in giving him those types of questions, they were giving him all the logic he needed to figure out the answer, or actually giving him the pieces he was missing in the way they asked it! 

[PeterPan]

Oral discourse, narrative language, and expository writing are so closely intertwined that it takes some work to tease apart what is happening. There can be some pattern, like using more complex language when she has it preloaded (something she has previously heard or can use as a model) vs. when she's on the spot. You don't know if the method of transcription is bogging her down, maybe from a working memory deficit. 

So it takes work to tease those things apart, and the screeners, like the CELF, psychs typically use are completely inadequate. They have known sensitivity issues, are largely multiple choice (I kid you not, an expressive language test that is multiple choice), and will under-identify kids with disabilities. 

And I agree with Kbutton that unless the people have been trained in these methodologies meant for intervention, they might spin their wheels a lot. Nothing we're doing for intervention is so hard, but it's just a bit more detailed and explicit than the regular curriculum instruction needs to be. 

The easiest thing would be to get an SLP to run some testing, if they actually own the proper tests, and let them sort it out. If they don't, don't bother. I've had people try to assess my ds' syntax informally, and they aren't fast enough to pick it up. I can, but I have a linguistics background and I sit there analyzing every piece. They really need to do a standardized tool like the SPELT if they want to see if there's an expressive language issue and the TNL (which can also be done dynamically, but again I prefer the tool). 

Which reminds me. I need to write the SLP and ask where those results are.

[kbutton]

33 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The easiest thing would be to get an SLP to run some testing, if they actually own the proper tests, and let them sort it out. If they don't, don't bother.

Do you mean to not bother with that SLP?

FWIW, our SLP would not run the tests, didn't have them, etc. We asked the psych, demonstrated that there were some issues with language (we had data from people working with him, and we had him answer open-ended questions first, and then gave multiple choice for the same passages and questions to show the difference in scores), and then the psych ordered the tests on a trial period for evaluation. I think the psych now owns at least one of the tests and uses it widely, lol! The SLP is implementing the therapy and seeing good results (though it was a rocky start).

So, if the SLP is not open, that's not a great sign, but sometimes just seeing the results is enough to get someone who hasn't really seen the need on board with more comprehensive testing.

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Do you mean to not bother with that SLP?

FWIW, our SLP would not run the tests,

I mean I've been to like 10 SLPs and if they don't own the tests you're going to get varying shades of run-around, unhelpfulness, and who knows what. So if you keep shopping, you'll eventually find an SLP who specializes in expressive language or literacy (either will work, and yes it will be a specialty) and they'll own the tests and do it.

And where I was going, I begged and they bought the tests. But because they didn't own the tests, they also weren't experienced in doing the intervention. It goes together. I'm saying don't screw around with someone who is going to give you the run-around and isn't experienced enough to help you. Unless they're wanting to learn super fast. 

SLP is a very broad field. You would look for someone who does a lot with expressive language or literacy and ask upfront what they use for narrative language. If they hum and haw, move on. Owning the tests and doing the intervention based on the data go together. The TNL is by the Gillams, who developed SKILL based on their research. The testing and intervention go together.

Edited June 3, 2019 by PeterPan

[Seeking Squirrels]

She was evaluated by an SLP about 3 years ago and they identified a narration issue. She did 3/4 months of therapy and they dismissed her as having the issue recovered. Over the years I've realized that they did help her be *able* to narrate, especially within the formula they were using in therapy. But on her own, it's pretty hit or miss with more misses. The neuropsych is going to consult with an SLP anyway due to speech patterns (she uses baby talk a lot. Especially when anxious, she presents as about 3) so hopefully we will already be getting a referral in to see them. I can go from there if they don't specialize in what we need. We go through Primary Children's Rehab, though, and they are really good with a lot of resources. 

I looked up Story Grammar Marker and that price tag is intimidating. Would this be something we would be doing in place of traditional language arts curriculum for her? Or in addition to? Or is it not worth moving forward with traditional subjects until we have worked through something like this? 

I'm also fully prepared for if the hybrid school doesn't work out. I only mention how they work through issues to say that it's not going to be punitive if she has troubles while there. I am not counting on them for making progress with her. She is very excited about it and she loved the facility when we visited. If it doesn't end up working out, that's okay, too. We will also see where the aba eval takes us and if they have anything to add. As of right now though, with her therapist and evaluator both thinking this will be good for her, we are going to plan on doing it. 

 

[PeterPan]

Hospital services are kind of funny. I'd see if your insurance will cover elsewhere and just look for who is doing this a lot. Try super hard to get the TNL=test of narrative language and the SPELT=structured photographic expressive language test. Without the SPELT, you don't know if that "baby talk" is attitude or anxiety or an expressive language issue or what. She may have quite a bit of memorized language and the issues become more apparent when the memorized language won't work for her or when she's stressed. 

You can buy and administer the SPELT yourself maybe. Better to find an SLP. I've had a whole thread on intervention using materials you can find online for free. The expressive language work and the narrative work can go together in the early stages, and in fact you NEED to do the expressive language work to create the foundation for the narrative work. 

Story Grammar Marker has a ton of free info on their blog. I would read there and not purchase anything just yet. Like it's fine to purchase, especially if they run a sale. But you might be able to wrap your brain around it for free from their site. They have a chart of the stages of narrative development. Look at that and then think about how the expressive language (vocabulary, concepts, syntax) have to be there to DO the components of those stages. You can learn all this for free just by reading on her site.

If she's having trouble with expressive language, it will affect her self-advocacy and behavior. Working on language is a number one priority, a top thing to do, and it's something you can do 2-3 hours a day with the right materials. When I realized that, that I could actually make a measurable difference in my dc's progress, I realized I needed him home more with me to be able to do that. 

if she's having those kind of issues with her language, it's going to affect how she's received socially. Yeah, that's gonna get interesting. I don't know. I've just found that my ds needs work and there's no glossing it or getting around it.

[kbutton]

31 minutes ago, Seeking Squirrels said:

She was evaluated by an SLP about 3 years ago and they identified a narration issue. She did 3/4 months of therapy and they dismissed her as having the issue recovered. Over the years I've realized that they did help her be *able* to narrate, especially within the formula they were using in therapy. But on her own, it's pretty hit or miss with more misses. The neuropsych is going to consult with an SLP anyway due to speech patterns (she uses baby talk a lot. Especially when anxious, she presents as about 3) so hopefully we will already be getting a referral in to see them. I can go from there if they don't specialize in what we need. We go through Primary Children's Rehab, though, and they are really good with a lot of resources. 

I looked up Story Grammar Marker and that price tag is intimidating. Would this be something we would be doing in place of traditional language arts curriculum for her? Or in addition to? Or is it not worth moving forward with traditional subjects until we have worked through something like this? 

I'm also fully prepared for if the hybrid school doesn't work out. I only mention how they work through issues to say that it's not going to be punitive if she has troubles while there. I am not counting on them for making progress with her. She is very excited about it and she loved the facility when we visited. If it doesn't end up working out, that's okay, too. We will also see where the aba eval takes us and if they have anything to add. As of right now though, with her therapist and evaluator both thinking this will be good for her, we are going to plan on doing it. 

A lot of times, therapy that is not ongoing or where you are encouraged to come back if you have additional problems is not as thorough. It's like they see the problem as an isolated problem vs. seeing the problem as a global language issue that IS going to mean that it's not coming naturally even when it's passable. It's like trying to fix a rust bucket of a car by changing the oil--maybe worse because at least with oil, you know you have to do that from time to time, not just once. Also, if the therapy is teaching fairly rigid ways of being able to use a skill, it's not going to generalize, especially with ASD. It's more like a starting point!!! 

You can work on traditional subjects and do the therapy if you have time. You just might have to do some things creatively or with alternate assignments vs. narrating or writing. The materials are kind of pricey, but compared to multiple therapy sessions, not so much. I would imagine you can resell them when you finish. One reason I like the materials is that they use consistency (a model with parts and pieces) to actually create the flexibility as they move through stages of development. So, at some point, the star icon for setting can mean something a bit different in expository text. You can read a passage and realize you have a narrative within a narrative, or that what you're reading is part expository and part narrative. It's ultimately very, very flexible.

I am glad you are flexible about what you want out of the hybrid school--it does sound like it would be a "do no harm" kind of environment and that you might have other good things that will come from it.

[PeterPan]

It's also that narrative language are not really a one-time fix. That sort of implies that if you get their narrative language age-appropriate that they'll then begin to acquire skills and continue to develop on their own. So she may have stalled out pretty much around the level of the therapy she received. That's why you need to look at the charts for development of narrative language yourself, because it will become very obvious where she is and why she is glitched. And SGM has charts on their blog that show the relationship between narrative language and expository writing, which will probably explain why her writing has stalled out.

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

The materials are kind of pricey, but compared to multiple therapy sessions, not so much.

Yes, that caliber of intervention with an SLP around here is $125 an hour. So for two hours of cost, you can do it yourself and save yourself the total pain in the butt of traffic, interruptions to your day, etc. When you learn the materials, you're also going to be able to carry them across the curriculum, bringing your narrative and expository work into your literacy, your science, your social studies, etc. It will make what you do with her much richer. 

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

you might have other good things that will come from it.

The key is not to distract from important things that need to be done for narrative language (because language is the foundation of ALL academics) and not to have so many transitions that the dc has a hard time settling into a routine. If your dc is having behaviors, you want to streamline and have things be very consistent and predictable. I often give up good things to decrease transitions and increase consistency and predictability. We go for those immersion, peer collaboration, stretching experiences in the summer, when we know that's the goal. But during the school year, I've had to become really radical about chopping stuff that gets in the way of what's really important. When I want to decrease behaviors with my ds, I decrease transitions and increase predictability. So for me, I would enroll him 5 days a week or wouldn't go at all. That's ASD2, where 2 is the support level. So for op, a one day a week enrollment might be nice, to get that taste but not be so disruptive. But when we've done lots of jostling in the past, even with paid ABA workers trying to do the work, it was no dice. The higher the support level, the more the dc needs consistency, a consistent, predictable routine. 

I think psychs like to think the best and they don't live in our world and actually have to do it. Just saying. I get a lot of cheery stuff from psychs but I'm the one in the trenches doing the hard work. The person least capable of doing hard things with my ds is the PSYCH who tried to work with him. Phd does not mean they really really get what it takes to do stuff. We're the ones in the trenches and we have to figure it out. Trust no one. Look at your dc and make data on their behavior. If you enroll in the program and withdraw, what are the expenses? Can you enroll on trial? What are their behavioral supports? You're saying she has behaviors, so she might begin to have behaviors there with such long days once the honeymoon time and the novelty is over. Or it may be low enough support that she'll be stressed and work so hard to hold it together that she's a mess when she comes home. Then she'll lose the following day to recovery, which is how your 2 day hybrid ends up screwing 3. Now if you only go to a hybrid on say Friday, then you don't care if she has a Saturday down day. But if she goes Tues/Thurs to the hybrid and requires Wed and possibly Friday to recover, you literally just lost your whole week.

That's where you make data. My ds has ASD2 and that's what happens with his support level. Obviously it's a great thing if that's NOT what is happening. But with a dc who is having behaviors, needing ABA, I think you're going to be seeing some consequences, not all rosy. 

If they like school so much for her (which these professionals perennially do, they're OBSSESSED with social), what about a full 5 day enrollment and be done with it? There are montessori K-12 schools around here that will implement IEPs for ASD. They're very unschooly, with project-driven studies, tutors for math, etc.

[kbutton]

I think Peter Pan is bringing up some realistic points, and those are all points that I would be concerned about in your shoes as well, but I had my ASD kiddo in both preschool (Montessori) and a private school K-2nd, so I have the data of having done it and having information about what works and doesn't in that situation.

You don't yet have that data, and I don't want to sound like a downer or sound too chipper either about trying the new option. There are definitely people here who've put their kids in a supportive environment after homeschooling and have had wonderful success.

I just heard a lot of bells go off in your descriptions that make me think you will not get great results in any environment unless the narrative language component is addressed. Or, you might be fine for a while, but the problem will get worse later, and you'll be left with starting all over again with an older child who has a bad experience under her belt.

But do you need support? Sure! Will this option provide support? It will definitely give you a break and give you some data. Just don't let the needs get lost if she does indeed do well socially or in some other aspect as you try it out. And if it doesn't go well, don't take it to heart--seek out resources that align with what you see happening. Either way, just keep an open mind about the narrative language stuff and use evidence-based information to push for what she needs.

You'll figure this out!

[Seeking Squirrels]

She'll be going Mon/Wed. We'll definitely watch for issues like those. She did PS for nearly a year when she was 8/3rd. She seemed to do really well til about Christmas. After Christmas break she struggled a lot more. She had meltdowns in the evening when she got home and she fought going in the morning. When she started coming home with brusies on her upper arm from chewing them, we pulled her out. But that was all day M-F in a standard classroom setting with 30 kids and the teacher was not giving her the sensory outlets I requested. So we do have some amount of data on how she does in that sort of situation, but that's not how this other one works, so it will probably look different. I am completely willing to scrap it if she gets too overwhelmed or if we're losing entire days to recover from the day out. We can pay monthly and there are no repercussions for pulling out mid-year. We get state funding through an umbrella program and we can use those funds to pay for the school. So it's a wash for us financially. Once she's evaluated for ABA we can also work with that therapist to evaluate how she acts on school days vs non, days after vs before.....

That makes sense about her narrative issues only being recovered up to the point she needed to be *then* which was almost three years ago. This week I have had a lot on my plate and I'm preparing a birthday party for her. I will sit down and give the SGM site a more thorough read-through and figure it out after her party next week. I do want to make sure that I give her the best language foundation I can. 

[kbutton]

That sounds very low risk! 

Also, I didn't think to suggest it before, but you might find that the school is willing to use a recommended tool if it would benefit multiple students.

It sounds like you have your eyes wide open, and I am happy you have choices!