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heartlikealion

1 out of 4 Mississippi third graders fail reading test

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2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

 

Which pod cast? I listened to the one with the history teacher in FL and part of one about the science that used the horse/pony example, but it wouldn’t let me fast forward and for some reason my phone cut it off and was making me start it all over so I never made it all the way through. I’m assuming the second one but there was a third in this thread as well I think. 

Here in MS I hear weird things sometimes. Two of ds’ teachers have used the phrasing, “on tomorrow” and I saw this in a post by one of dh’s employees on Facebook as well. I’ve tried researching it and there isn’t much on it. I’ve lived in MS for many years, but only recently saw this. They used this in written communication with parents. My knee jerk reaction was, “this is coming from his reading and writing teachers?” 

Sorry! This one  Hard Words: Why aren't kids being taught to read from American Public Media.The quote I had was closer to the end. I had the same thing happen to me when I listened to it again. I used Sticher and the podcast kept playing while the bar didn't advance. I ended up having to restart it and skip to where I left off to get the time marker for my previous post. 

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2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Sounds like they are using language suitable to the target audience. That's a good thing, you don't want teachers or other educated residents to be seen as folks who aren't part of the community and you don't want parents to be viewed negatively because they use colloquialisms. Some folks get nervous interacting with teachers; colloquialisms and nonformal attire can put them at ease so the message gets thru.  Inclusiveness is a big deal now in K12.

You know, I never thought of it that way. I have no idea of that is the reasoning... to be honest I doubt if people that use that phrase know it sounds wrong to my ears, but that is a good way to look at the communication. 

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1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

 I know when our two littles went to preschool, they had to have an eye exam before entering, so I think these things are getting addressed.  

 

Like at the eye dr? Because here that is not required and when ds went to pediatric wellness appointments at most they had a nurse ask him to describe shapes on a board several feet down the hall. We didn’t learn he was near sighted til he did poorly on the Bender Visual-Motor Gestalt test (at a private eval) and complained of headaches after school. That was third grade. 

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7 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

 

Like at the eye dr? Because here that is not required and when ds went to pediatric wellness appointments at most they had a nurse ask him to describe shapes on a board several feet down the hall. We didn’t learn he was near sighted til he did poorly on the Bender Visual-Motor Gestalt test (at a private eval) and complained of headaches after school. That was third grade. 

 

Our public school nurses do simple eye exams at certain grades. (My son failed the third grade eye exam. Shortly after I'd discovered he couldn't see the words at the front of the church we were singing from and gotten him signed up for an eye exam.)  However, I do know that this does not totally solve the problem.  We had one child that was being helped by having a volunteer reader reading with her who was really struggling to read because she needed glasses and her parent would not do it. Information had been sent home about places to help with cost, etc.  But the school cannot force the family to go get the exam, order the glasses, etc.

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1 hour ago, Plum said:

Sorry! This one  Hard Words: Why aren't kids being taught to read from American Public Media.The quote I had was closer to the end. I had the same thing happen to me when I listened to it again. I used Sticher and the podcast kept playing while the bar didn't advance. I ended up having to restart it and skip to where I left off to get the time marker for my previous post. 

Ok I needed to hear the quotes to give context to your other post. For those reading that were confused like me — a woman interviewed (has a PhD, used to teach elementary kids to read... had/has some role at a university in MS) was adamant that phonics is boring because of the readers that say things like, “the rat in the tin can.” Her belief in whole word teaching is based on the enthusiasm of her students when they read more interesting books like Frog and Toad are Friends... she said they learned better, but the interviewer said the woman had no way to back it up. At some point (I think same woman, maybe not) she said, “their science” to refer to science she didn’t agree with. I guess the whole word proponents think their method is not researched enough. 

It was very painful to listen to some of the podcast. The whole word proponents were representing my alma mater. I was happy to hear from the women attending a letter learning (something like that) class because they wanted to be there/share their new knowledge with their students. 

At one point the podcast said teachers may receive like 20 min of phonics instruction total before becoming teachers. Now there’s some test called Reading Foundations or something they said teachers must pass.. not sure if my son’s teachers had to do that. I’m going to look up more on that topic for my own curiosity. 

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38 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

It was very painful to listen to some of the podcast. The whole word proponents were representing my alma mater. I was happy to hear from the women attending a letter learning (something like that) class because they wanted to be there/share their new knowledge with their students. 

At one point the podcast said teachers may receive like 20 min of phonics instruction total before becoming teachers. Now there’s some test called Reading Foundations or something they said teachers must pass.. not sure if my son’s teachers had to do that. I’m going to look up more on that topic for my own curiosity. 

When my oldest started Kindergarten she wanted so badly to read, but really struggled. I asked the teacher for advice (it was half day kindergarten and very play based) and she pulled me aside and said don't use the readers here or at the library. USE BOB BOOKS.  Which of course is phonics based.  She had been teaching 30 years, so she kept to the training she'd had back in the day (which would have been at this point now 44 years ago! Crikey).  It worked like a charm.  

For the next kids I didn't think twice -- they started expressing an interest in reading at 4 so we just started with BOB books and they took off.  I tried to tell as many parents as I could about the wonders of phonics, lol.  But everyone just trusted the system. 

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3 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

When my oldest started Kindergarten she wanted so badly to read, but really struggled. I asked the teacher for advice (it was half day kindergarten and very play based) and she pulled me aside and said don't use the readers here or at the library. USE BOB BOOKS.  Which of course is phonics based.  She had been teaching 30 years, so she kept to the training she'd had back in the day (which would have been at this point now 44 years ago! Crikey).  It worked like a charm.  

For the next kids I didn't think twice -- they started expressing an interest in reading at 4 so we just started with BOB books and they took off.  I tried to tell as many parents as I could about the wonders of phonics, lol.  But everyone just trusted the system. 

I have a set of Bob books here for dd but she’s wish washy on them. I tried one from the library with ds years ago. He was scared of a character in the book and thought the book used bad words because Dh had taught “fat” is a bad word. Unfortunately “fat” is commonly used in cvc books. I said it was not a good word to describe people but ok for a pumpkin or maybe even a cat. Well, the book called Mat fat. So... lol it was a flop. 

He did the McGuffey primer with me. I downloaded it on my kindle and we followed lessons on Easy Peasy. But we used the phonics lessons not the sight word approach. She has multiple things on there. I got a couple I am Sam downloads too and another series... I forgot the name. Very old school stuff. 

We bought the Curious George Curious about Phonics set and it was awful!! Big words thrown, etc. They are fine for leisure reading and pointing out a few sounds bit not for the child to master in the way they are meant to be used. Like they throw in words like “surprise” and “present” when the kid is just learning short words like “like.” 

I was so disappointed because we love Curious George. 

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3 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I am going to sidetrack for just a second and clarify - your friend is right.  Dyslexia is a brain difference, one that can be seen on an MRI, that routes the ability to read through (essentially) a different, and not as efficient, pathway.  Many students with dyslexia learn to read.  (They generally count on their memory ability and if that is "short" then they struggle incredibly.) It is especially apparent around 1st-3rd grade.  Modern science is telling us that approximately 20% of the population is dyslexic and that it is hereditary.  These kids will struggle initially with phonetic awareness, then blending, and later comprehension issues if they can read. 

How does this relate to the Barton pre-screening?  It's not supposed to screen for dyslexia, but instead is supposed to screen for whether you have the phonemic awareness skills to be able to learn from phonics instruction.  But from what you write here - dyslexics struggling with phonetic awareness and blending - that sounds like the same thing the Barton pre-screening is looking for. 

And the "brain routing the ability to read through a different and not as efficient pathway" sounds *exactly* like what happened with my oldest dd.  Which in her case happened *because* she didn't have the phonemic awareness needed to learn phonics, yet somehow learned to read (from pure phonics teaching, even) without it.  She failed the Barton pre-screening as an apparently fluent reader.  However she was reading, it wasn't phonetically.  (And her spelling and decoding of unfamiliar words showed it.) 

And those phonemic awareness deficits definitely run in my family.  My mom learned pure whole word, and she insists to this day that she couldn't have learned to read via phonics.  And, really, given the point of the Barton pre-screening - do you have the skills to learn to read via phonics? - she's 100% right.  She *doesn't* have the underlying skills needed to learn to read with phonics, and so without those underlying deficits being remediated, she *couldn't* have learned via phonics.  But the skills she doesn't have are the same thing that dyslexics struggle with - lack of phonetic awareness (she can't connect the dictionary phonetic pronunciation to how a word sounds), inability to blend - and she definitely reads through a different, non-phonetic pathway.  But no comprehension issues. 

Ditto for my sister and me.  We learned with whole word before school, but did have some phonics in school, after we could read.  Except since our reading was better than our phonemic awareness, we used our stronger reading skills to work backwards to figure out the answer, bypassing our weak phonemic awareness.  (I watched my dd do the same thing.  To add or delete sounds, she'd visualize the spelling of the word, think which letter was associated with which sound, add or delete the letter, and read the resulting word.) 

And it would have been ditto for my kids, except that I read for years on the importance of phonics-only instruction, and persisted with pure phonics despite how hard it was for my oldest.  (Even though she was the poster child for balanced literacy, naturally using grammar clues and picture clues and context clues to bolster her weak decoding.)  And even then it *still* would have been ditto for my oldest - using a different pathway *despite* all the phonics because she still lacked phonemic awareness and blending skills.  (My oldest somehow learned to read from pure phonics teaching *without having the ability to learn from phonics teaching*.)

Since then I've taught my kids as if they were dyslexic (including remediating my oldest), because dyslexics have serious problems with phonemic awareness and blending, and my kids have serious problems with phonemic awareness and blending.  And it's been both necessary and successful.  And family history demonstrates that if those problems go unremediated, we learn to read, but not phonetically - rather like we are using a different, non-phonetic pathway.  But does that imply dyslexia?  Or, no, you can have serious phonemic awareness problems that interfere with your ability to learn to read phonically (and thus push you to learn to read non-phonetically) for other reasons?

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I just finished getting my elementary license.  There was NO instruction in phonics.  We were told to encourage guessing, looking at pictures, and context clues.  I had a professor in literacy (graduate level) who said, “Most words can’t be sounded out.”  She used the example of the sentence, “The kite will fly high.”  She said a child could never sound out the word high.  I raised my hand and said, “Wouldn’t it be more efficient to teach the child that igh says long I sound?”  She was flustered.  “But...does it?”  The graduate professors don’t know basic phonics.  The teachers certainly don’t.  I have a dyslexic kid.  I don’t have formal OG training but I learned enough to teach her to read well above grade level by age 8.  We have the science to know how to teach kids to read but nobody is teaching the teachers let alone the children.  It’s criminal. 

When you have a dyslexic student who doesn’t have phonemic awareness needed to learn phonics, you remediate the phonemic awareness.  You don’t need to be able to do all the fancy deletion and changing phonemes.  You just need to be solid on blending and segmenting.  You work on working memory.  That’s why specialized programs like LIPS exist.  Most dyslexics won’t need them but some will.  Because very few kids are going to have the memory to learn by sight 100,000 words.  

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49 minutes ago, forty-two said:

How does this relate to the Barton pre-screening?  It's not supposed to screen for dyslexia, but instead is supposed to screen for whether you have the phonemic awareness skills to be able to learn from phonics instruction.  But from what you write here - dyslexics struggling with phonetic awareness and blending - that sounds like the same thing the Barton pre-screening is looking for. 

And the "brain routing the ability to read through a different and not as efficient pathway" sounds *exactly* like what happened with my oldest dd.  Which in her case happened *because* she didn't have the phonemic awareness needed to learn phonics, yet somehow learned to read (from pure phonics teaching, even) without it.  She failed the Barton pre-screening as an apparently fluent reader.  However she was reading, it wasn't phonetically.  (And her spelling and decoding of unfamiliar words showed it.) 

And those phonemic awareness deficits definitely run in my family.  My mom learned pure whole word, and she insists to this day that she couldn't have learned to read via phonics.  And, really, given the point of the Barton pre-screening - do you have the skills to learn to read via phonics? - she's 100% right.  She *doesn't* have the underlying skills needed to learn to read with phonics, and so without those underlying deficits being remediated, she *couldn't* have learned via phonics.  But the skills she doesn't have are the same thing that dyslexics struggle with - lack of phonetic awareness (she can't connect the dictionary phonetic pronunciation to how a word sounds), inability to blend - and she definitely reads through a different, non-phonetic pathway.  But no comprehension issues. 

Ditto for my sister and me.  We learned with whole word before school, but did have some phonics in school, after we could read.  Except since our reading was better than our phonemic awareness, we used our stronger reading skills to work backwards to figure out the answer, bypassing our weak phonemic awareness.  (I watched my dd do the same thing.  To add or delete sounds, she'd visualize the spelling of the word, think which letter was associated with which sound, add or delete the letter, and read the resulting word.) 

And it would have been ditto for my kids, except that I read for years on the importance of phonics-only instruction, and persisted with pure phonics despite how hard it was for my oldest.  (Even though she was the poster child for balanced literacy, naturally using grammar clues and picture clues and context clues to bolster her weak decoding.)  And even then it *still* would have been ditto for my oldest - using a different pathway *despite* all the phonics because she still lacked phonemic awareness and blending skills.  (My oldest somehow learned to read from pure phonics teaching *without having the ability to learn from phonics teaching*.)

Since then I've taught my kids as if they were dyslexic (including remediating my oldest), because dyslexics have serious problems with phonemic awareness and blending, and my kids have serious problems with phonemic awareness and blending.  And it's been both necessary and successful.  And family history demonstrates that if those problems go unremediated, we learn to read, but not phonetically - rather like we are using a different, non-phonetic pathway.  But does that imply dyslexia?  Or, no, you can have serious phonemic awareness problems that interfere with your ability to learn to read phonically (and thus push you to learn to read non-phonetically) for other reasons?

 

Yes, that would imply dyslexia.  There are certainly other issues that exist such as auditory processing problems.  Barton is one program (of many) that is based on Dr. Orton and Anna Gillingham's research.  They were working with dyslexics.  So, yes, Susan Barton's program was made to remediate the reading skills of dyslexics - both adults and children.  

As you're seeing the genetic link, and because dyslexia is completely commonplace, you are likely seeing dyslexia.  Your mother may believe she could not have learned via phonics, but science states otherwise.  The truth is, if repeated efforts using auditory and tactile methods had been used, she could have been taught to read phonetically.  She compensated.  Did they have those methods then?  Yes.  Did they utilize them? No.  So was that an option for her education? Nope.  It's disgraceful.
There is a slide of dyslexia affectedness.  As science predicts, as children of a dyslexic, my kids run about 50/50 dyslexia vs. non-dyslexic.  I have a very mild, two moderates, one severe-profound, and two more that I don't know where they fall - I'd guess one moderate and one profound.  

So, here's what I'd say to no comprehension issues - she either has an incredible memory and has most words memorized *or* isn't reading things of great complexity in long spurts.  My oldest DS - we began to do remediation and he did several levels of Barton, but truthfully, he was 14 when we started.  His reading ability is incredible - however, so his memory and word recall.  When he was tested, his "reading level" was grade 12+.  However, when he needed to decode and encode "nonsense" words - he failed.  His ability was below that of a fourth grader.  He has an incredible recall for words and reads by sight.  He doesn't have comprehension issues unless he is doing very heavy reading, a lot of reading, or reading when exhausted.  This is typical of dyslexics.  DH used to say when he was doing homework that he'd need to read things 2-3 times to really get it.  This is comprehension.  As adults, we are rarely called to read new and complex materials we haven't come into contact with previously, so we at the best age to judge whether or not there are comprehension issues, if that means anything.  Even if she was in a complex line of work, she probably now has familiarity with the subject and so has "absorbed" those words and doesn't have to think about, "What is this word? What does this word mean? What is the context? What is this passage saying?" until she gets it, kwim?  Difficult to ascertain the comprehension of adults who can read (well) via sight.
 

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6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I just finished getting my elementary license.  There was NO instruction in phonics.  We were told to encourage guessing, looking at pictures, and context clues.  I had a professor in literacy (graduate level) who said, “Most words can’t be sounded out.”  She used the example of the sentence, “The kite will fly high.”  She said a child could never sound out the word high.  I raised my hand and said, “Wouldn’t it be more efficient to teach the child that igh says long I sound?”  She was flustered.  “But...does it?”  The graduate professors don’t know basic phonics.  The teachers certainly don’t.  I have a dyslexic kid.  I don’t have formal OG training but I learned enough to teach her to read well above grade level by age 8.  We have the science to know how to teach kids to read but nobody is teaching the teachers let alone the children.  It’s criminal. 

When you have a dyslexic student who doesn’t have phonemic awareness needed to learn phonics, you remediate the phonemic awareness.  You don’t need to be able to do all the fancy deletion and changing phonemes.  You just need to be solid on blending and segmenting.  You work on working memory.  That’s why specialized programs like LIPS exist.  Most dyslexics won’t need them but some will.  Because very few kids are going to have the memory to learn by sight 100,000 words.  


Yes!  1,000 times yes!
The first paragraph is shameful. Sigh.  We know better so we ought to DO better.  It's 2019 for goodness' sakes!

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6 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

You know, I never thought of it that way. I have no idea of that is the reasoning... to be honest I doubt if people that use that phrase know it sounds wrong to my ears, but that is a good way to look at the communication. 

 

That phrase should not sound wrong if its an informal, everyday occasion and you are a member of the group that uses it; it is wrong if its a formal situation.  Think of it as a way for people to signal they are being down to earth and approachable and maybe signalling where they are from.  All y'all from that region know what it means, right?  Guaranteed most folks who have the occasion to be formal know the correct grammar for the formal setting. 

 

 

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As someone who grew up and received my secondary education degree from a public university in Arkansas, the joke in the teaching department was, "Thank God for Mississippi!" At the time, Mississippi was 50th in the nation for education and Arkansas was 49th. Arkansas has since moved up in the rankings and a grassroots movement started by parents and family of dyslexic students has been able to push a new state law through that every child will be taught to read using phonics even if they aren't dyslexic that way no one slips through the cracks. There was an entire segment about it on PBS Newshour:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-parents-of-dyslexic-children-are-teaching-schools-about-literacy?fbclid=IwAR0oCE0iQ0f4tg9t05QMeYFEeLtAdG9GZUJK6eH1fxML_vf0gAjvMIvijBg

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20 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

That phrase should not sound wrong if its an informal, everyday occasion and you are a member of the group that uses it; it is wrong if its a formal situation.  Think of it as a way for people to signal they are being down to earth and approachable and maybe signalling where they are from.  All y'all from that region know what it means, right?  Guaranteed most folks who have the occasion to be formal know the correct grammar for the formal setting. 

 

 

No! Never seen/heard it til I saw it in a Remind app notification to the parents... which looked like it was meant as formal notice more so than casual. It’s weird. I asked some other locals and they were not familiar with it, either. I am still unsure if it’s part of African-American English or what. I have now seen it 3x by three different black women and only within the past six months. 

I know slang and casual vs formal. This was just odd. 

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23 minutes ago, Chelli said:

As someone who grew up and received my secondary education degree from a public university in Arkansas, the joke in the teaching department was, "Thank God for Mississippi!" At the time, Mississippi was 50th in the nation for education and Arkansas was 49th. Arkansas has since moved up in the rankings and a grassroots movement started by parents and family of dyslexic students has been able to push a new state law through that every child will be taught to read using phonics even if they aren't dyslexic that way no one slips through the cracks. There was an entire segment about it on PBS Newshour:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-parents-of-dyslexic-children-are-teaching-schools-about-literacy?fbclid=IwAR0oCE0iQ0f4tg9t05QMeYFEeLtAdG9GZUJK6eH1fxML_vf0gAjvMIvijBg

I disagree. I don’t think it’s a matter of phonics vs other methods to teach children with dyslexia. It’s a matter of using an O-G style program. That was only vaguely implied in the article. They didn’t name any curricula. In fact, the article ticked me off for not being more descriptive. I get they may not want to name one but they could have elaborated more. 

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1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I just finished getting my elementary license.  There was NO instruction in phonics.  We were told to encourage guessing, looking at pictures, and context clues.  I had a professor in literacy (graduate level) who said, “Most words can’t be sounded out.”  She used the example of the sentence, “The kite will fly high.”  She said a child could never sound out the word high.  I raised my hand and said, “Wouldn’t it be more efficient to teach the child that igh says long I sound?”  She was flustered.  “But...does it?”  The graduate professors don’t know basic phonics.  The teachers certainly don’t.  I have a dyslexic kid.  I don’t have formal OG training but I learned enough to teach her to read well above grade level by age 8.  We have the science to know how to teach kids to read but nobody is teaching the teachers let alone the children.  It’s criminal. 

When you have a dyslexic student who doesn’t have phonemic awareness needed to learn phonics, you remediate the phonemic awareness.  You don’t need to be able to do all the fancy deletion and changing phonemes.  You just need to be solid on blending and segmenting.  You work on working memory.  That’s why specialized programs like LIPS exist.  Most dyslexics won’t need them but some will.  Because very few kids are going to have the memory to learn by sight 100,000 words.  

 

Yep.  This was how it was when I got my elementary education at college too.   I don't remember if they didn't teach phonics when I was in school or I just didn't learn it.   But I learned phonics when I taught my kids to read.  

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2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

No! Never seen/heard it til I saw it in a Remind app notification to the parents... which looked like it was meant as formal notice more so than casual. It’s weird. I asked some other locals and they were not familiar with it, either. I am still unsure if it’s part of African-American English or what. I have now seen it 3x by three different black women and only within the past six months. 

I know slang and casual vs formal. This was just odd. 

 

Remind app is informal.  Formal would be a business letter or an official notice on letterhead that the sender provides a link to.  For ex, here we get links to Dept of Health formal letters on communicable diseases spreading in the school district and the formal letter from the Superintendent describing the protocol for keeping one's child home if he has symptoms of the disease, and on the school's sanitary procedures.

It doesn't matter what dialect its part of ; its a colloquialism.  "On tomorrow' sounds like a corruption of 'on the morrow', which would be a regional dialect among those who spoke English and had been in the area for several generations.  Your dc will see many colloquialisms in the English classes in the next few years.  Usage is not an indicator of class or educational level...unless the author or speaker wants it to be and then there will be more indicators with it.   Now, if you were saying you were seeing 'ax' in print rather than 'ask'...for sure, you'd be asking your dh to have a word with the Superintendent on professional development opportunities for the staff, since ax was Chaucer's time and is no longer considered Standard English.

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5 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

I have a set of Bob books here for dd but she’s wish washy on them. I tried one from the library with ds years ago. He was scared of a character in the book and thought the book used bad words because Dh had taught “fat” is a bad word. Unfortunately “fat” is commonly used in cvc books. I said it was not a good word to describe people but ok for a pumpkin or maybe even a cat. Well, the book called Mat fat. So... lol it was a flop. 

He did the McGuffey primer with me. I downloaded it on my kindle and we followed lessons on Easy Peasy. But we used the phonics lessons not the sight word approach. She has multiple things on there. I got a couple I am Sam downloads too and another series... I forgot the name. Very old school stuff. 

We bought the Curious George Curious about Phonics set and it was awful!! Big words thrown, etc. They are fine for leisure reading and pointing out a few sounds bit not for the child to master in the way they are meant to be used. Like they throw in words like “surprise” and “present” when the kid is just learning short words like “like.” 

I was so disappointed because we love Curious George. 

 

Bob Books did nothing here. Neither kid liked them.

My son learned to read by osmosis, basically.

My daughter... struggled more. But we picked up a set of "Dick and Jane anthologies" (My dad said he learned out of them growing up and we saw them at Barnes and Noble so decided to give them a try) and she loved reading those. It used very similar words and told stories she was interested in finishing. And over the course of one summer she went from struggling to reading for fun.  Most of the easy books at the library -- were not that easy. Too many words that didn't fit a pattern/help them reinforce success in reading.

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1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

Remind app is informal.  Formal would be a business letter or an official notice on letterhead that the sender provides a link to.  For ex, here we get links to Dept of Health formal letters on communicable diseases spreading in the school district and the formal letter from the Superintendent describing the protocol for keeping one's child home if he has symptoms of the disease, and on the school's sanitary procedures.

It doesn't matter what dialect its part of ; its a colloquialism.  "On tomorrow' sounds like a corruption of 'on the morrow', which would be a regional dialect among those who spoke English and had been in the area for several generations.  Your dc will see many colloquialisms in the English classes in the next few years.  Usage is not an indicator of class or educational level...unless the author or speaker wants it to be and then there will be more indicators with it.   Now, if you were saying you were seeing 'ax' in print rather than 'ask'...for sure, you'd be asking your dh to have a word with the Superintendent on professional development opportunities for the staff, since ax was Chaucer's time and is no longer considered Standard English.

 

Didn't she say that it isn't a phrase she hears in her regional dialect except for these few times? That makes it seem less likely that it is a colloquialism used to make everyone comfortable. We have frequent messages for our one in school that surprise me. "He needs more juices. We teached the alphabets today." There is a strong regional dialect here, but my son is an ESL student and we don't plan to live here forever. I would rather he learn English without the distinct dialect. It is definitely also educational level here though. We think our son's para might be illiterate. It's nothing about anyone's worth as a person, but it does influence whether or not the kids learn what they need to. 

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It's very possible that the people using that construction simply don't realize it IS regional. It's the sort of thing that can slip in without the speaker realizing their interlocuter doesn't use it.

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1 hour ago, beaners said:

 

Didn't she say that it isn't a phrase she hears in her regional dialect except for these few times? That makes it seem less likely that it is a colloquialism used to make everyone comfortable. We have frequent messages for our one in school that surprise me. "He needs more juices. We teached the alphabets today." There is a strong regional dialect here, but my son is an ESL student and we don't plan to live here forever. I would rather he learn English without the distinct dialect. It is definitely also educational level here though. We think our son's para might be illiterate. It's nothing about anyone's worth as a person, but it does influence whether or not the kids learn what they need to. 

 

With all due respect, the OP doesn't socialize with those who use that regional dialect, as far as she's posted here.  It seems to belong to those who have lived there a few more generations and she is coming across it in her parent/staff conversations. 

We have dialect here..its all transplants.  I'd rather my child not use it either, and I ask for Standard  at home because using that dialect would make people think he has a speech impediment since he is not from the region that uses that dialect. At school, the ENL teacher does the same for her students who aren't from that region.   Same for the ENL grammar mistakes that get repeated in the included classroom, particularly the very common wrong word order in the sentence error that will make them fail their ELA tests. The thing is, the errors we are hearing in school are bad grammar in both casual and formal.  The OP is just hearing casual language; nothing wrong with it unless its used formally.  Its the same in my region .... 'all y'all' and 'hant/hain't/ain't are just fine in regional colloquialism..they just haven't faded over time yet. Nothing wrong with them in terms of grammar in a casual setting. 

Edited by HeighHo
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Op here. I have lived in my area six years. I don’t talk to the local parents that often but I do talk to people in the area and have never heard the phrase, “on tomorrow” in a conversation IRL. The people from my tiny parish live in this school district, have lived here for generations, and were unfamiliar with the term when I asked about six of them. There is a black parishioner in my parish but she was not there when I asked. Her sister is the town librarian. I may ask one of them if they are familiar with this phrase next time I get a chance. I talk to the workers at the local town hall and post office on the regular (they are about my age) and have never heard either of them use it (not sure if there’s been a lot of reason for the word tomorrow to come up, but probably because the postal worker would say my package will be there tomorrow etc.). They may be able to answer my question as well. One is black and one is white. The former two postal workers were black and again, I have no recollection of this phrase. I’m at the post office a lot because we have a P.O. Box. We order from Amazon frequently. 

I shop locally sometimes and have never heard a cashier use it. Like I asked for so and so once and the girls working (all African American) told me she would be there the next day... this was weeks ago. As I remember the conversation they said “tomorrow,” not “on tomorrow.” In the school office the secretary has told me many times, “just be sure to bring his excused absence note tomorrow.” No “on” included. Almost the entire school staff is black. 

When ds went to private school I spoke to their staff all the time. Never heard the phrase. They have lived here for generations. Mostly white if not all white staff there I’d that makes any difference. My point is I don’t know where this term comes from but the usage is not prevalent or I just haven’t heard it until now. The woman that used it on Facebook — I talk to her all the time. I bring Dh his lunch or dinner or pop in for other reasons and I’ve never heard her use the phrase face-to-face. 

When the librarian has told me about events or hours, I feel like the word tomorrow has likely been used at some point, but not “on tomorrow.” 

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He did the McGuffey primer with me. I downloaded it on my kindle and we followed lessons on Easy Peasy. But we used the phonics lessons not the sight word approach. She has multiple things on there. I got a couple I am Sam downloads too and another series... I forgot the name. Very old school stuff. 

I swear by the McGuffey Primer/workbook. My mom taught her 4 kids to read without any issues/struggles when we were 4-5. I have the same Primer she used and will start it with my 4yos, making him the 16th child to use it. Learning styles all varied, but McGuffey's was 100% successful. Tried and true (at least for us)...  The other Readers are lovely as well - we read the stories/poems together often.

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There are 73 replies as I type this and I haven't read them. Each time I see the thread title, I wonder how Mississippi compares with other states in this. Is Mississippi at the bottom of the pile? How does Mississippi compare with, California or New York or Texas or Alabama?

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I used to teach at the focused literacy optional school for the district (just over the border from MS). Basically, we were a magnet for kids who were behind on reading or language. The primary diffeeence was that the entire staff was trained in Slingerland phonics and phonics was used extensively. As a music specialist, I did a lot of auditory processing and sound cuing activities imbedded in my program, which, again, were designed to help with reading, and I was hired specifically because I am dual certified for classroom instruction as well. 

It worked. Most of our kids gained skills, and those who continued to struggle were able to be identified and get more focused remediation. Unfortunately, the whole test focused system killed the program because our kids usually went back to their home schools once they had caught up and were reading well, so we had perennially low test scores and were deemed “failing”. 

Edited by dmmetler
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1 hour ago, Lanny said:

There are 73 replies as I type this and I haven't read them. Each time I see the thread title, I wonder how Mississippi compares with other states in this. Is Mississippi at the bottom of the pile? How does Mississippi compare with, California or New York or Texas or Alabama?

This is for 4th grade reading by state. 

https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/stateprofile?chort=1&sub=RED&sj=AL&sfj=NP&st=MN&year=2017R3

 

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4 hours ago, Lanny said:

There are 73 replies as I type this and I haven't read them. Each time I see the thread title, I wonder how Mississippi compares with other states in this. Is Mississippi at the bottom of the pile? How does Mississippi compare with, California or New York or Texas or Alabama?

 

I mean, it's generally safe to assume that Mississippi is at or near the bottom of the pile. Their vaccination rates are stellar, though.

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20 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

No! Never seen/heard it til I saw it in a Remind app notification to the parents... which looked like it was meant as formal notice more so than casual. It’s weird. I asked some other locals and they were not familiar with it, either. I am still unsure if it’s part of African-American English or what. I have now seen it 3x by three different black women and only within the past six months. 

I know slang and casual vs formal. This was just odd. 

 

On tomorrow: It’s a southern regional form of colloquial English.  But I hear it sometimes in my area too. All the people I’ve heard use it were white. I think it may be Appalachian origin perhaps as some of the “came west by covered wagon” descended people in my current area came from Appalachia area.  English can have pockets of usage as well as different accents from a valley or cove that was a bit isolated and developed on its own.   Even more so through UK than US.  I don’t use it, but it doesn’t bother me. If anything I think it’s a bit helpful to have the extra syllable.   

The test will be Thursday.

The test will be on Thursday.

The test will be tomorrow.

The test will be on tomorrow.

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6 hours ago, Plum said:

 

The geographic swath is interesting (though some color designations are barely representing different scores, it seems). But almost half the map is light blue and most of that except for Florida is south as map goes even if a Western state. 

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5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

On tomorrow: It’s a southern regional form of colloquial English.  But I hear it sometimes in my area too. All the people I’ve heard use it were white. I think it may be Appalachian origin perhaps as some of the “came west by covered wagon” descended people in my current area came from Appalachia area.  English can have pockets of usage as well as different accents from a valley or cove that was a bit isolated and developed on its own.   Even more so through UK than US.  I don’t use it, but it doesn’t bother me. If anything I think it’s a bit helpful to have the extra syllable.   

The test will be Thursday.

The test will be on Thursday.

The test will be tomorrow.

The test will be on tomorrow.

 

None of those bother my ears but the last lol. It just sounds awful to me.

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17 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

 

None of those bother my ears but the last lol. It just sounds awful to me.

 

Try thinking of the “on” as last word of first phrase:

The test will be on 

The race will be on

The meeting will be on

 

like something is happening, not cancelled 

instead of thinking of the on as going with the time designation 

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On 5/23/2019 at 10:42 AM, Plum said:

 

That is a significant increase. The way the whole word people describe phonics lessons, I have to agree. Phonics books and lessons are soo boring. I couldn’t wait to move past that stage and into books with actual story lines. However, I am so glad I stuck with it. My middle is dyslexic and struggles with decoding and spelling. I can’t imagine where he would be if he didn’t have all of this time to let some of that phonics sink in. 

This is my story too. My youngest is dyslexic.  People often disbelieve her because she actually likes to read.  It does take her significantly longer and she still reads like a typical dyslexic, especially when tired=== bark vs dark or transposing letters but the difference between her and my s-i-l who never got phonics, never got any special help is truly amazing.  ANd it makes me sad and mad.

oh, and she wasn't a fluent reader until she was 10 which would have been 4th grade.  She did read before but she read her first book without pictures at all then.  

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Try thinking of the “on” as last word of first phrase:

The test will be on 

The race will be on

The meeting will be on

 

like something is happening, not cancelled 

instead of thinking of the on as going with the time designation 

Yeah, it doesn't matter. I've heard it and read it every way and it sounds goofy to me. Lol Just like when I moved to Mississippi and all the school desks had those metal racks underneath them and the teachers said, "put your books up." Up? First of all, "put up" was weird. But then the fact that it wasn't even the same direction... that was really hard on my ears.

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24 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Yeah, it doesn't matter. I've heard it and read it every way and it sounds goofy to me. Lol Just like when I moved to Mississippi and all the school desks had those metal racks underneath them and the teachers said, "put your books up." Up? First of all, "put up" was weird. But then the fact that it wasn't even the same direction... that was really hard on my ears.

 

Lol: Up doesn’t always mean up!  I had the same thing more or less with my dog where I was saying “up” in a situation where up to me was down to him. 

Sounds like your ears have a lot of idioms “up with which they cannot put.”

some people “put up” preserves,  or “put up” at lodgings or a camp site   Or a car will be put up for sale though it is still located on the ground

can you tolerate “line up”? Even if the ground is flat under the line?  Or line up books on a shelf, meaning a horizontal not vertical line?

Edited by Pen
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21 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Yeah, it doesn't matter. I've heard it and read it every way and it sounds goofy to me. Lol Just like when I moved to Mississippi and all the school desks had those metal racks underneath them and the teachers said, "put your books up." Up? First of all, "put up" was weird. But then the fact that it wasn't even the same direction... that was really hard on my ears.

We have all kinds of words and phrases in English that would sound weird or illogical to a person not used to them.

I'm surprised though that putting things up for putting them away was new to you, that is very common in a lot of the South and I can't personally think of a reason that putting things away (if that is what you are used to) would be more logical. Away...away from where? Away to where?  It's the kind of thing where the whole phrase has a meaning not limited to the meanings of the individual words. Putting things up is to put them in their proper place or sometimes to prepare something for storage/to store something (canning peaches, for example, could be "putting up peaches"; up doesn't mean literally in an upward direction in such cases; language is much more flexible than that.

 

 

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Other "up" idioms in addition to those Pen mentioned:

Eat up

Shut up

Make something up

Roll up (say, a sleeping bag)

Fire up (an engine/machine)

Fix up

Show up

Bring up

Back me up

Get dressed up

Read up (about a topic)

Shoot up (hopefully a tin can, not one of the other meanings of that idiom)

Break up (with a significant other)

Form up (in a formation)

Start up

Lots more, seems we Anglophones like the word up.

Edited by maize
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My son and I have a frequent up / down communication challenges with regard to our local streets  —. Understanding which way someone is going if they’ve gone “up” or “down”.    

I wonder if this sort of thing affects reading scores on the comprehension questions of tests like the ones the 3rd graders take.    I even wonder if it causes regional difficulties in scoring well if tests are made by people in the northeast with a different understanding than people in the south. 

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11 minutes ago, maize said:

We have all kinds of words and phrases in English that would sound weird or illogical to a person not used to them.

I'm surprised though that putting things up for putting them away was new to you, that is very common in a lot of the South and I can't personally think of a reason that putting things away (if that is what you are used to) would be more logical. Away...away from where? Away to where?  It's the kind of thing where the whole phrase has a meaning not limited to the meanings of the individual words. Putting things up is to put them in their proper place or sometimes to prepare something for storage/to store something (canning peaches, for example, could be "putting up peaches"; up doesn't mean literally in an upward direction in such cases; language is much more flexible than that.

 

My point was hearing a *new to me* phrase. I probably didn’t analyze the other phrase (put away) as that is what I was accustomed to hearing.  

I moved to Mississippi as a child. I was talking about moving from the west coast, not moving around within the South. When someone told us to mash the elevator button that was weird, too. Mash is what you do to potatoes lol None of that phases me now. 

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3 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

 

My point was hearing a *new to me* phrase. I probably didn’t analyze the other phrase (put away) as that is what I was accustomed to hearing.  

I moved to Mississippi as a child. I was talking about moving from the west coast, not moving around within the South. When someone told us to mash the elevator button that was weird, too. Mash is what you do to potatoes lol None of that phases me now. 

 

With mostly heat or touch sensitive buttons all the words in use for that seem weird since press, push, mash all seem like the button will move, and I rarely encounter a moving button in recent years.   

I guess I just get used to expessions and sometimes feel nostalgia for phrases like “mind the gap” or “lean off the doors”

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Mash is the mashed 'taters, for those who came over from England. 

Or it's what the menfolk are using as an ingredient in the beverage they are makin' up in the woods, and its definitely not potato based.

Edited by HeighHo
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18 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

Mash is the mashed 'taters, for those who came over from England. 

Or it's what the menfolk are using as an ingredient in the beverage they are makin' up in the woods, and its definitely not potato based.

 

In these parts it’s a form of poultry feed

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I was talking about mash as a verb, though. 

And none of those things like “line up” seem weird to me since I am used to them. 

@Pen I really only think of England when I hear “mind the gap.” My sister gave me a shirt with that and the metro logo. Dh thought it sounded dirty and I was embarrassed to wear it. 

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Mash is used as a verb here as well as in mash the buttons. It’s just a colloquium. I live in an area with a lot of transplants and am a transplant myself. When we moved here we decided this was going to be home. Is the education system the best? No I live in the south. But have my children excelled to the best of their abilities yes through a combination of home influences and school. My kids have the opportunity to go to top tier colleges here that are public and affordable. We lived in the northeast previously. There is no way we could pay for 6 kids to go to school and remain debt free. I have met other transplants who are constantly looking at the negative ie everything is better elsewhere. In my opinion you do yourself and your children a disservice with this attitude. Either embrace where you live make friends, get to know parents in your children’s classes, get involved in the community by joining what’s already there or move now. This negative attitude is doing your children a disservice. their childhood is passing by with a mother constantly picking out the negative of their community. That’s a hard position to be in to make friends and fit in at school. 

My state has a 3rd grade reading pass rate of 60%. My oldest when to private school and public high school, the next 4 homeschooled until public high school, the youngest started public kindergarten this year and will continue in public school until the end. First 2 went to the state flagship school got degrees and are happily employed living on their own. 3rd is in college now. 

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13 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

 

My point was hearing a *new to me* phrase. I probably didn’t analyze the other phrase (put away) as that is what I was accustomed to hearing.  

I moved to Mississippi as a child. I was talking about moving from the west coast, not moving around within the South. When someone told us to mash the elevator button that was weird, too. Mash is what you do to potatoes lol None of that phases me now. 

I missed that the "put up" story was from your childhood, that makes more sense.

Of course unfamiliar turns of phrase sound unfamiliar, and most stuff outside of their usual community and/or usual media exposure will be unfamiliar to a child.

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5 hours ago, hshibley said:

In my opinion you do yourself and your children a disservice with this attitude. Either embrace where you live make friends, get to know parents in your children’s classes, get involved in the community by joining what’s already there or move now. This negative attitude is doing your children a disservice. their childhood is passing by with a mother constantly picking out the negative of their community. That’s a hard position to be in to make friends and fit in at school. 

Fair enough. You made good points. 

Now let me try to explain things a little bit. Ok I live not just in the South. I live in one of the poorest school districts in the US. When Dh, a director over a few community college libraries here, offered to give ds’ public school books they didn’t want them! It was going to be too much hassle to do the donation paperwork the principal thought. He twisted their arm. He said you are not in compliance with blah blah blah about how many lexile-level appropriate books you have per pupil. Something like that. And he said they clearly didn’t understand the donation process as it’s not that hard and he’s donated other places. Now he’s offered to come to their library as a volunteer next year along with his coworker (another librarian) to color code all the books (I think for the AR program that is supposedly returning). I hope they take him up on it. They don’t even have a school librarian at the moment. 

Currently I have flyers up in town advertising myself as a free tutor twice a week over the summer at the public library to help children that failed or barely passed the third grade reading test. The librarian and I discussed it and she’ll pass it along but isn’t sure people will come. 

I have tried to move. I had two job interviews recently and didn’t get either job. I have tried to improve my mood. I see a psychiatrist for medication management and I currently take a med for anxiety/depression/ocd. 

Moving is not financially possible so yes, I’m trying to embrace what I can. We live in campus housing so it’s cheap. I can’t afford city living. But we’ve outgrown this home so we’re doing our best to make it last. 

The reason I don’t know many local parents is because most of the families I know are dh’s colleagues and they commute and send their kids to either private school or live in another school district. I know a family with children in the same school as ds and I do talk to them occassionally because we are neighbors. I spoke to them on Friday and said their kids could come hang out in the backyard with us when I get the sprinkler up etc. The mom asked of ds was doing the summer program at school (it’s advertised as a camp and it’s a mix of things). I said no, he didn’t want to. She said she was making her kids try it. She asked if ds was doing Apple camp again (because I’m the one that told her about it last summer) and I said nah, he’s done it 2-3 summers in a row. Our Apple store is 45 min. away. 

I had ds in 4H this year but they lost the archery coach so we had to go to another town (different school district) for practice. There were only two boys there, one family. 

So it’s not as though we never talk to people. It’s just so many people we meet do not belong to his school. All the homeschool families we know, minus two local, live in the city. The local ones want very little to do with us. I have invited them out, etc. One mom only contacts me when she has another Usborne sale. 

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38 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I know a family with children in the same school as ds and I do talk to them occassionally because we are neighbors. I spoke to them on Friday and said their kids could come hang out in the backyard with us when I get the sprinkler up etc. The mom asked of ds was doing the summer program at school (it’s advertised as a camp and it’s a mix of things). I said no, he didn’t want to. She said she was making her kids try it.

 

Is your Ds around same age as her kids?  Maybe your Ds should try the same camp for reasons of trying to work on friendship?  I sometimes got my Ds to try something for 2 days before allowing an “I don’t want to.” 

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On 5/25/2019 at 7:17 AM, Lanny said:

There are 73 replies as I type this and I haven't read them. Each time I see the thread title, I wonder how Mississippi compares with other states in this. Is Mississippi at the bottom of the pile? How does Mississippi compare with, California or New York or Texas or Alabama?

 

That's a good question.  In my area of NY we have families who moved up to work for the auto manufacturers etc and who didn't go back down South when NAFTA came in and the factories shut down.  What they see as a difference:  $$ and standards.  NY districts usually fund all day K where there is concentrated poverty, as well as Transitional K or 1st, and recently NY has been moving towards universal preK, especially in the big 5 cities via a partnership with the Catholic Church.  In the cities with concentrated poverty, the cities have compelled five year olds to attend, which is a year earlier than the state law.  Attendance is huge; much money is spent on preK transport.  Mississippi is just starting to fund universal preK and has a huge drop in Grade 4 to Grade 8 reading that will take time to eliminate. Standards have been higher in NY and Common Core has been rejected since the drop in Regents Exam passing rates among nonELL students. 

Library content sounds anecdotally similar from what the OP says.  Libraries were big losers in the 2008 economic downtown; school librarians were let go and the rooms used for instructional purposes or offices in the poorer districts that had huge population surges.  We are only 40% poverty in my district and youth groups fund raise to provide books for the school libraries.  Teachers went to buying used paperbacks and taking donations in order to have appropriate material and enough books for students to read independently.  People just do not have the money for gas to go to the public library if they don't live in walking or bicycling distance, so it was a big deal to get the school library open during the summer federal Feeding Program.  Can't practice if you don't have access. 

There is also a huge number difference.   Mississippi app half million students, NY two and a half million for public K12. 

Edited by HeighHo

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7 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

@Pen I really only think of England when I hear “mind the gap.” My sister gave me a shirt with that and the metro logo. Dh thought it sounded dirty and I was embarrassed to wear it. 

 

Correct. Mind the Gap is used in UK.  And brings UK nostalgic feelings for me. (The other phrase was from New York Subway in the 70’s-80’s.)

In re the shirt: “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”

I guess the “Tube” and the logo for it could also sound dirty, but I don’t think there’s a dirty double entendre intended.  It’s sort of like “I ♥️ NY”

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