"Dysgraphia just means messy handwriting so she doesn't have it."

[Runningmom80]

😐

 

Direct quote from the school's OT.

 

Needless to say our second meeting went much worse than the first. 

In tutoring updates, DD placed into book 2 for Wilson. She did great on most of the reading but she couldn't do the vowel sounds. (We knew this) We are only doing twice a week, it's what works for the teacher's schedule and also our budget. There is an option to continue into the school year as well. 

Thanks for your help everyone! This has all been a whirlwind. 

[Storygirl]

Oh my goodness. That's crazy pants.

[lewelma]

um, wow. My ds's handwriting is tidy to the point of art, because his brains sees it as art and not writing.

[Runningmom80]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

um, wow. My ds's handwriting is tidy to the point of art, because his brains sees it as art and not writing.

 

They don't get it, and it doesn't seem like they want to get it. 

[lewelma]

sigh

[Runningmom80]

Quote got messed up

Edited May 22, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Runningmom80]

27 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 Ask for test of speed and legibility vs age/grade.

 

She did this and tested pretty well. It's not her penmanship it's the organizing the language in her head to write it.

[prairiewindmomma]

We’ve bumped into this.

I think this misperception is one reason the DSM has moved from calling this dysgraphia to SLD-Writing (specific learning disorder= SLD).

The Understood page on Dysgraphia and what it looks like at different ages is a helpful resource. I have a bunch of printoffs that I bring to each IEP meeting to help educate.

[sweet2ndchance]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

They dont want to get it, but use facts and press them.   Ask for test of speed and legibility vs age/grade.  My kid could not finish the handwritten portion of the state ELA test, nor could he get notes copied from the board in the time given...all because he needed to slow down to be legible and get control of the pen, and that choked his thoughts.  The OT conceded 'low normal'.  In the end, it doesn't matter.  Remediation is penmanship lessons plus whatever vision/motor is needed.  Accomodation is keyboarding and printers...and they won't have a printer available in every classroom, so they default to extra time. Cheap, doesn't serve kid.   Ask around and find the retired elementary school teacher that knows how to teach penmanship.

My dysgraphic kid got a scribe for written tests among other things. Either the teacher or an aide had to write out his response as he narrated it, verbatim with no input from the scribe, even on state tests through high school. And this was in rural schools with greater than 50% of students receiving free or reduced lunch so not a rich school with money to have extra faculty by any stretch of the imagination. Keyboarding, printers and extra time are most definitely not the only accommodations for dysgraphia.

Dysgraphia is also most definitely not some secret code word for messy handwriting. I would have been pissed if they tried to tell me that with my dysgraphic son. I'm sorry the OT was being so flippant with you. You said though that it's not her penmanship but getting the thoughts organized in her head, are you sure it is dysgraphia that she is struggling with? My son could narrate wonderfully. Even in public school, every year there was at least one teacher that was shocked they first time they scribed for him because he could narrate complex and well thought out compositions but the physical act of writing it down was the point where it all broke down. Either he had to severely limit the complexity of his composition to the point that it sounded like a child much younger than him wrote it or he wouldn't be able to get all the information down in the time alloted. It was a combination of his lack of speed and legibility AND the fact that his narrated composition was at or above the expectations for his age and his written composition was so far below the expectations. Having that large gap in those two abilities is what sealed the deal for accommodations for dysgraphia. If he struggled to narrate because he couldn't organized his thoughts but his writing was at least comparable to his age mates, I think his IEP would have looked much different.

I'm sorry if I'm just missing some information on your situation and not understanding. But extra time, the ability to type when it is able to be accomodated for, remediation for handwriting (the schools tried several times not to mention all the work I did with him before he started public school in 6th grade), scribes for tests and in class written work, notes provided by the teacher rather than having to try and hand write them himself when a computer was not convenient, and a study period with the SPED teachers to help him make sure he got all the information he needed and act as a liason between him and his other teachers were all accommodations my dysgraphic son was given in school. I did have to advocate for him fiercely even after we got his IEP established and we would run into a teacher from time to time that didn't want to understand his special needs but I did what I had to do to make sure all his teachers were aware of his needs and followed the accommodations in his IEP and eventually encouraged to advocate for himself.

[*****]

Yes, sometimes I wonder if it is lack of teaching to these OT's these days when they were getting their degrees?  Or lack of school budgets, so the admins are not letting her diagnose with dysgraphia?   It really is sad for these kids who struggle so much.  When recommending students for an OT eval for possible dysgraphia, I always ask them, that if the student does not qualify, to please give me exercises in which I can help with what I can during tutoring.  They have never come through on that.  (Thank goodness for internet.  Even crossing the midline exercises have often helped.  How hard is that to offer suggestions?!

 

[PeterPan]

The best part is OTs are now being told to get a PhD=pile it higher and deeper before going out. Seriously. They're still gonna know squat. We had a spanking new phd OT and she just knew diddly, utterly nothing. Sigh. 

You realize Lane over on RFWP has a whole series of workbooks you can use that *may* help? I really don't know. Well you've got organization issues. My ds probably does, but we aren't even there yet. I'm just trying to get his VMI up. Was her VMI ok? 

[Runningmom80]

9 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

My dysgraphic kid got a scribe for written tests among other things. Either the teacher or an aide had to write out his response as he narrated it, verbatim with no input from the scribe, even on state tests through high school. And this was in rural schools with greater than 50% of students receiving free or reduced lunch so not a rich school with money to have extra faculty by any stretch of the imagination. Keyboarding, printers and extra time are most definitely not the only accommodations for dysgraphia.

Dysgraphia is also most definitely not some secret code word for messy handwriting. I would have been pissed if they tried to tell me that with my dysgraphic son. I'm sorry the OT was being so flippant with you. You said though that it's not her penmanship but getting the thoughts organized in her head, are you sure it is dysgraphia that she is struggling with? My son could narrate wonderfully. Even in public school, every year there was at least one teacher that was shocked they first time they scribed for him because he could narrate complex and well thought out compositions but the physical act of writing it down was the point where it all broke down. Either he had to severely limit the complexity of his composition to the point that it sounded like a child much younger than him wrote it or he wouldn't be able to get all the information down in the time alloted. It was a combination of his lack of speed and legibility AND the fact that his narrated composition was at or above the expectations for his age and his written composition was so far below the expectations. Having that large gap in those two abilities is what sealed the deal for accommodations for dysgraphia. If he struggled to narrate because he couldn't organized his thoughts but his writing was at least comparable to his age mates, I think his IEP would have looked much different.

I'm sorry if I'm just missing some information on your situation and not understanding. But extra time, the ability to type when it is able to be accomodated for, remediation for handwriting (the schools tried several times not to mention all the work I did with him before he started public school in 6th grade), scribes for tests and in class written work, notes provided by the teacher rather than having to try and hand write them himself when a computer was not convenient, and a study period with the SPED teachers to help him make sure he got all the information he needed and act as a liason between him and his other teachers were all accommodations my dysgraphic son was given in school. I did have to advocate for him fiercely even after we got his IEP established and we would run into a teacher from time to time that didn't want to understand his special needs but I did what I had to do to make sure all his teachers were aware of his needs and followed the accommodations in his IEP and eventually encouraged to advocate for himself.

 

Yes I’m sure it’s dysgraphia. She can also narrate, it’s getting the thoughts on to the page.

 

shes most likely mildly dyslexic too, we don’t have that officially diagnosed but my husband my self and the SLP think that’s what it is even though her scores were too screwy to diagnose it.

 

i admire everyone who fights the fight for this. They were so against an IEP that it will only be a very steep uphill climb for us. It feels easier to just homeschool her and get her what she needs without having to take on the system.

[Runningmom80]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The best part is OTs are now being told to get a PhD=pile it higher and deeper before going out. Seriously. They're still gonna know squat. We had a spanking new phd OT and she just knew diddly, utterly nothing. Sigh. 

You realize Lane over on RFWP has a whole series of workbooks you can use that *may* help? I really don't know. Well you've got organization issues. My ds probably does, but we aren't even there yet. I'm just trying to get his VMI up. Was her VMI ok? 

 

SLP found her VMI to be low average. Both OTs found it average or good. DD probably just got better at taking the test. I have the RFWP books book marked for when I figure out exactly what we are doing therapy wise.

[Runningmom80]

9 hours ago, ***** said:

Yes, sometimes I wonder if it is lack of teaching to these OT's these days when they were getting their degrees?  Or lack of school budgets, so the admins are not letting her diagnose with dysgraphia?   It really is sad for these kids who struggle so much.  When recommending students for an OT eval for possible dysgraphia, I always ask them, that if the student does not qualify, to please give me exercises in which I can help with what I can during tutoring.  They have never come through on that.  (Thank goodness for internet.  Even crossing the midline exercises have often helped.  How hard is that to offer suggestions?!

 

 

We got suggestions to strengthen her arms so holding the pencil is easy.

 

she does handstands and flies across monkey bars on a regular basis so we’re not that convinced she needs arm strength. 

[Runningmom80]

10 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

We’ve bumped into this.

I think this misperception is one reason the DSM has moved from calling this dysgraphia to SLD-Writing (specific learning disorder= SLD).

The Understood page on Dysgraphia and what it looks like at different ages is a helpful resource. I have a bunch of printoffs that I bring to each IEP meeting to help educate.

 

Yes, we have “specific learning disorder of written expression (dysgraphia)” on the report.

The OT literally said “I would not call the organizing thoughts and getting them on to the paper issue dysgraphia.” So I asked her what she would call it and she looked at the school psych, who took over and told me I was trying to pathologize something that wasn’t there. “It’s probably nothing and she just needs to to mature.”

She said we can watch her next year and the school psych will give her the CBM tests to monitor her writing progress. “Time will tell” was her answer.

I’ll just say I’ve been “watching and waiting” since DD was 6. I wish I would have had her tested then but I didn’t so I’m just trying to do the best I can now.  I don’t understand the public school’s “wait to fail” course of action at all. 

I guess I woke up still mad about this.

[Runningmom80]

8 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Its the focus on 'adequate' rather than reaching potential.  Once a D is acheived, the school is done with the student as they have 'needier' students who need a lot to get the pass. Even AP classes don't do any more than necessary for a '2'.  

Penmanship includes everything that happens from the time the thought is formed to getting it thru the writing implement to the paper.  Our xp was as sweet2chance described......could read and orally answer well above grade level, could not keep sophisticated thoughts in mind and organized while forcing words down thru the implement, spelling them correctly and writing them legibly.  I have been accused many times by new teachers of writing my kiddo's papers.  If they call on him in class, they drop the accusation.

 

Yes. Exactly. 

They also gave me the kids all develop at different rates pep talk.

[Runningmom80]

I’m so sick of this term and it’s pretty much lost all meaning at this point, but I feel gaslit. It’s like I’m sitting there saying the sky is blue and they are telling me “only you think the sky is blue. You paid someone a lot of money to agree with you that the sky is blue, but we all see it as purple.”

[Heathermomster]

I’m trying to decide whether I want to engage in this conversation. Occupational therapists are not qualified to diagnose an SLD of the written expression, so I typically don’t give a fig what they say.  As far as I’m concerned, their off the cuff opinions are about as important as someone who recently graduated from clown school, unless that clown is a licensed clinical psychologist qualified to diagnose.  But I digress...

Handwriting SLDs may be broken down to two types:  developmental coordination disorder or written expression.  A good OT will evaluate handedness, visual perception, pincer grasp, core strength, balance/vestibular, and developmental motor (reflex integration such as ATNR, STNR,...).  

My son was diagnosed with SLD of written expression in 2nd grade.  None of his private teachers understood it.  We provided the school with printers and an Alphasmart Neo for typing, and some of the teachers balked.  One teacher was concerned about cheating.  None of the teachers saw the need. We homeschooled ft from 7th grade on, and son attends college with full accommodations.  Once homeschooled, DS received direct and explicit writing instruction using IEW with an OG and IEW certified instructor.  Things are fine now.

If you can’t afford an full np report, start saving your money for it.  When the time comes for testing, use the most highly qualified person you can find. Don’t ever expect the faculty to support you.  I never had support from the school, and it was a lonely road except for a few close friends and the boards.

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Heathermomster

[Runningmom80]

Thanks for the reply. We do have a full report already. The school just disagrees with it.

 

I guess I didn’t expect the school to support me, but I also didn’t expect to be insulted in the process. My kids have only been in public school since January so I’m very new to all of this. Lesson learned.  

[Heathermomster]

My son’s issues are motor and language based.  I was told multiple times over the years that he would mature and lose his dysgraphia diagnosis. One person looked at his language scores and thought his vocab and word retrieval numbers were too high for the diagnosis. I guess that is where the motor issues kicked in because his diagnosis was confirmed just prior to high school graduation.  Paragraph/essay writing structure has always been a challenge.  Grammar mechanics and punctuation have improved, but he still needs an editor.  

Your student requires direct, explicit multisensory writing instruction so that she can internalize the writing process.  Accommodations like typing and scribes shift the focus to the writing processing behind the physical act of forming letters.  Yes, she might mature (whatever that means) but you can’t stop all school and wait 4-5 years for that.  My questions are how do they intend to manage your DD in the classroom, and what direct and explicit writing program do they intend to use to teach your child to organize and compose sentences/paragraphs?  Will that program implement graphic organizers with clear instructions that are broken down at sentence level?  Do all students have access to Chromebooks or iPads?  How do they plan to proceed?

Edited May 23, 2019 by Heathermomster

[Runningmom80]

3 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

My son’s issues are motor and language based.  I was told multiple times over the years that he would mature and lose his dysgraphia diagnosis. One person looked at his language scores and thought his vocab and word retrieval numbers were too high for the diagnosis. I guess that is where the motor issues kicked in because his diagnosis was confirmed just prior to high school graduation.  Paragraph/essay writing structure has always been a challenge.  Grammar mechanics and punctuation have improved, but he still needs an editor.  

Your student requires direct, explicit multisensory writing instruction so that she can internalize the writing process.  Accommodations like typing and scribes shift the focus to the writing processing behind the physical act of forming letters.  Yes, she might mature (whatever that means) but you can’t stop all school and wait 4-5 years for that.  My questions are how do they intend to manage your DD in the classroom and what direct and explicit writing program do they intend to use to teach your child to organize and compose sentences/paragraphs?  Will that program implement graphic organizers with clear instructions that are broken down at sentence level?  Do all students have access to Chromebooks or iPads?  How do they plan to proceed?

 

Yes! This was my issue with them. I'm like how long am I supposed to wait for this? 

Their plan is to do nothing. They do not see a problem. They do not care what my private evaluation says. So, we will homeschool.  I wanted to keep her in if at all possible but it just doesn't seem worth it to me. I'd rather spend my energy helping my kid. 

[PeterPan]

This is why people homeschool. And don’t believe their “average” stuff. Look at the scores yourself. Gifted IQ with average doesn’t = gifted output

Edited May 23, 2019 by PeterPan

[Runningmom80]

On 5/23/2019 at 10:15 AM, PeterPan said:

This is why people homeschool. And don’t believe their “average” stuff. Look at the scores yourself. Gifted IQ with average doesn’t = gifted output

 

NM

Edited July 24, 2019 by Runningmom80

[prairiewindmomma]

11 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Yes, we have “specific learning disorder of written expression (dysgraphia)” on the report.

The OT literally said “I would not call the organizing thoughts and getting them on to the paper issue dysgraphia.” 

I guess I woke up still mad about this.

Yeah, this will likely be an on-going issue. I have been mad for about a decade now.

IME, it’s still not taken seriously in jr high. I have been making rounds and it’s up for discussion in next week’s IEP. I think they see so many low functioning kids that they don’t want to support the 2E ones.

[kbutton]

12 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

I’m so sick of this term and it’s pretty much lost all meaning at this point, but I feel gaslit. It’s like I’m sitting there saying the sky is blue and they are telling me “only you think the sky is blue. You paid someone a lot of money to agree with you that the sky is blue, but we all see it as purple.”

That is what they are saying. I'm so sorry! 

We do fine now, but our first round of IEP stuff for each child--wow. That particular school psych has FINALLY retired. It was time.

[Storygirl]

Yes about the blue and purple sky.

Personally, I am tired of describing issues and getting the "that's really typical for kids at this age" response. No, I have other kids of the same age, and it's not typical, which is why I'm bringing it up. I have gotten that A LOT. Most recently, just last week.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, kbutton said:

That particular school psych has FINALLY retired.

Hallelujah. Our first ps psych is also out. 

6 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Personally, I am tired of describing issues and getting the "that's really typical for kids at this age" response. No, I have other kids of the same age, and it's not typical, which is why I'm bringing it up. I have gotten that A LOT. Most recently, just last week.

Yup. And I think when they use their own kids as the model of typical you're not supposed to then say "Oh, I didn't know your dc had SN as well." Snort. 

[PeterPan]

17 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Thats one of the sticking points too. Her IQ didn’t come out gifted. The SLP showed me the scores that led her to believe DD was probably gifted but just not showing it on the IQ test. When I mentioned it to the school they said “we don’t compare to just a few areas of strengths to the weaknesses.” 

Sorry, I was on my phone earlier and was being brief, couldn't edit easily, blah blah. YOU have to believe in your kid and look at your kid and know who she is. They're being their usual recalcitrant, big system, shut up and stop being a pain selves. There only ARE two numbers really to the IQ. I mean you've got the processing speed and now with the newest WISC that fluid reasoning, but those get dropped for the GAI. It's not like woo-woo we've got 15 numbers and you're cherry-picking one. And I'm just saying with only a few numbers contributing (and most getting dropped for a GAI), you can't IGNORE or undercut one good number because another was affected by an SLD. 

Your child is as bright as her strongest numbers and ask weak as her weakest. THAT is the truth. And if you teach her like she's ONLY the sum of her weakest parts, you're going to frustrate the tar out of her and discourage her. 

So you have to believe in the internal strengths and capabilities that you've seen when you work with her, things that are hinted at in the numbers. IQ scores change WILDLY on kids with SLDs. We've had kids with swings of 30-50 points here on this board. For my ds I was told the testing around 6, before the SLDs made him really differentiate from his peers, would be the most accurate. Other people have said the opposite, that changing psychs, starting ADHD meds, whatever changed the scores. These are not set in stone things. My ds had a round this time that dropped 30 points. Is my ds now NOT the same gifted IQ dc he was 4 years ago, even though multiple, multiple psychs looked at those scores and was like yup, gifted??? 

You can look at how she FUNCTIONS and teach to how she FUNCTIONS. You appeal to her brightest side and the needs that brings to be creative, to be novel, to think, whatever, AND you work with her weaker side and her need for intervention and explicit instruction. 

Why are we on this? I've forgotten. In the ps they would not have *one* teacher teach this dc. They would do intervention with an IS and regular classroom instruction with a K-8 teacher. Even my ds now has mainstream classroom in his IEP, which is dumb dumb dumb and would cause problems, but we don't talk about that. So when we homeschool, we need that *mindset* kwim? We're going to have to summon our multiple personality disorders and be both, lol.

[PeterPan]

18 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Yes! This was my issue with them. I'm like how long am I supposed to wait for this? 

Their plan is to do nothing. They do not see a problem. They do not care what my private evaluation says. So, we will homeschool.  I wanted to keep her in if at all possible but it just doesn't seem worth it to me. I'd rather spend my energy helping my kid. 

Bingo. And it can vary. There are some districts (a rich one near ours) where they very quietly pull strugglers out and do perpetual RTI. No IEPs, cuz in that district it's not fashionable or cooth to give IEPs. But the kids get actual OG from an actual, experienced, certified person, lucky dogs. In our district you can get an IEP at the drop of a dime comparatively but give it up on anyone being certified in anything evidence-based. 

So schools vary, but just in general that's just the reality when you want "free" intervention. It's going to be rationed out, imagine that, and they're going to set some arbitrary numbers and have to go to sleep at night knowing there are lots of kids who didn't make that cut. It's why CUT SCORES for tests and the publisher publishing them rather than allowing the schools to use arbitrary lines, are actually a big deal. 

The real gaslighting is with the ps workers who start off knowing these kids needed intervention and being told by their coor etc. to shut up, move on, they didn't have the numbers. Do that long enough and they all start to sound like parrots (this is the scores, he'll get services in the classroom, push-in is fine, blah blah). 

It's all money, how much they can do with what they've got. It's money on intervention and deciding why they use these intervention approaches with zero evidence-base, zero basis on anything that actually works for dyslexia, and are instead doing whole language derived mess by fancier names. It's always always money. Welcome to the system.

So yes, pull her out, believe she has potential, believe you haven't seen the potential yet, believe you aren't writing her off and saying you've hit walls till you actually see the walls.

[Runningmom80]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You can look at how she FUNCTIONS and teach to how she FUNCTIONS. You appeal to her brightest side and the needs that brings to be creative, to be novel, to think, whatever, AND you work with her weaker side and her need for intervention and explicit instruction. 

 

Yes! This is the plan. I fear that keeping her in school is going to become a situation where her weaknesses are the focus. I'm not feeling good about doing that to a soon to be adolescent girl. 

 

[Runningmom80]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Bingo. And it can vary. There are some districts (a rich one near ours) where they very quietly pull strugglers out and do perpetual RTI. No IEPs, cuz in that district it's not fashionable or cooth to give IEPs. But the kids get actual OG from an actual, experienced, certified person, lucky dogs. In our district you can get an IEP at the drop of a dime comparatively but give it up on anyone being certified in anything evidence-based. 

So schools vary, but just in general that's just the reality when you want "free" intervention. It's going to be rationed out, imagine that, and they're going to set some arbitrary numbers and have to go to sleep at night knowing there are lots of kids who didn't make that cut. It's why CUT SCORES for tests and the publisher publishing them rather than allowing the schools to use arbitrary lines, are actually a big deal. 

The real gaslighting is with the ps workers who start off knowing these kids needed intervention and being told by their coor etc. to shut up, move on, they didn't have the numbers. Do that long enough and they all start to sound like parrots (this is the scores, he'll get services in the classroom, push-in is fine, blah blah). 

It's all money, how much they can do with what they've got. It's money on intervention and deciding why they use these intervention approaches with zero evidence-base, zero basis on anything that actually works for dyslexia, and are instead doing whole language derived mess by fancier names. It's always always money. Welcome to the system.

So yes, pull her out, believe she has potential, believe you haven't seen the potential yet, believe you aren't writing her off and saying you've hit walls till you actually see the walls.

 

Yes yes yes. I can see it very clearly at this point. I was telling DH if I didn't already feel bad for the people trying to do good in the system, I do now. It's an impossible task. 

And YES especially to that last bit. I keep thinking of how many kids get lost. 

 

Well on that depressing note I thank you all again and continually! 😆I was mostly just venting in the OP but I appreciate all of the support. 

[PeterPan]

If you want a perkier thought, I'm kinda really into this song right now. I really like the "I wanna try even though I could fail." I seem to be good at the failing part, but I keep trying. And if you've already heard this song, then laugh at my being late to the party.

https://www.amazon.com/Try-Everything/dp/B01BE5TNWA