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sangtarah

Results from school evaluation

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For dd9.

she qualifies for an IEP for a SLD-math. We set her up with 3x/wk at the school, 20 min sessions. 

Anything else I should investigate?

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It's great that the school is offering intervention, even though you are homeschooling (I am assuming you are homeschooling).

Did they give you a report with recommended accommodations? Have they written the IEP yet?

So the way the IEPs work here is that there are goals written for the areas of disability. And then those 20 minutes sessions would target those specific goals. So it would not be covering the general math concepts in total, and so you will still need to have a math curriculum to use at home. And those 20 minute sessions would usually be in addition to the daily math lesson, not in place of it.

If you don't know, I would ask specific questions about what they plan to teach her and what methods they will use. Some schools mainly use computer programs for the extra math help. Others might do specific teaching on topics, but this could be in a small group, or it could be one on one. Think about what your daughter really needs and whether what the school plans will actually help her.

The processing speed is low. Processing speed often affects math and writing, which may be related to the lower written expression score. Even though that writing score is in the average range on the bell curve, I would expect that you may find writing to be more challenging as she gets older and the demands increase.

You can look up a definition of fluid reasoning, if you don't know.  It's a measure of problem solving ability, so that may also be affecting the math and writing, even though it is technically in the average part of the bell curve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_and_crystallized_intelligence

You can google low processing speed to get ideas for what accommodations to ask for in the IEP, if they did not give you any recommendations in the report. If you are homeschooling, you will be naturally accommodating for these things, but it's good to have it in writing. And you may get some ideas for things you can do to scaffold that you may not have thought of. Generally, lower processing speed means the student needs more time --- extra time on tests, extra time to complete assignments or assignments shortened,  assignments broken into smaller chunks -- and may need accommodations for writing, such as speech to text, or typing instead of writing by hand. The specific accommodations needed will vary, depending on what the child struggles with.

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Agreeing with everything Story said. I'm surprised you're sending her for the math intervention, as you could do that yourself with Ronit Bird and probably do a better job. There's no standard curriculum or intervention for dyscalculia the way there is for dyslexia, so the odds of getting crap worthless intervention (and losing that time driving back and forth) are higher.

Her writing scores are low, discrepant, so you need to view that as an SLD and intervene there too.

One thing the ps will do well is making sure she's doing word problems as well as computation, so make sure you think through that. I really like the Evan Moor daily word problems workbooks I'm using right now with ds. You may need to get some intervention under your belt before you're ready for that. I REALLY like Ronit Bird, highly recommend.

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The discrepancy in writing mentioned by Peter Pan is that there is a 20 point difference between her verbal score and her writing score. That is statistically significant, even though the writing score technically falls within the average range of the bell curve (which means the school does not have to intervene on it).

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Thank you both!! I am homeschooling dd9. 

The school will only intervene during their school year, so she will have 3-4 sessions before they let out for the summer. Everyone on the school team are sweet and helpful. They will send me a copy of the official IEP, which we drafted at the meeting yesterday... since I have no previous experience with this, I was just trusting their judgment about things. 

Any and all links, suggestions, etc are welcome! I will look at Ronit Bird - I had never heard of that. What kind of direction would you recommend for the writing piece? I have IEW on our shelves, and planned on using it, would that be step-by-step enough to help a student like dd? 

If we did send her to the PS (something that dd9 has asked about), the school team said the IEP would be revised. Currently it only has math goals, but they mentioned eliminating time constraints, etc, could be added. 

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In addition to the above results, dd9 was given the CELF-5 and had a score of 22, 11 points above what she needed to pass the screening at her age. 

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9 hours ago, sangtarah said:

dd9 was given the CELF-5 and had a score of 22, 11 points above what she needed to pass the screening at her age. 

Was that a standard score or percentile or??

Here's some info on interpreting CELF-5 scores. https://www.pearsonclinical.ca/content/dam/school/global/clinical/canada/programs/celf/CELF-5-language-disorder_cdn_lr.pdf The publisher is saying the optimal cut score (that balances sensitivity and specificity) is 1.33 SD, or a standard score of 80.

Edited by PeterPan

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I agree with Storygirl's recommendation to follow up about the specific goals, methods, and structure of her math intervention to see whether it is a good fit for her and worth the time investment. Twenty minute sessions seem very short to me, especially in a group setting. 

If they aren't included elsewhere in the report, I might ask the psychologist to send you a copy of the WISC-V and WIAT-III subtest scores. The WISC-V is made up of 10 core subtests and these subtest scores can sometimes provide useful information. For example, it might be helpful to know whether she scored Low Average on both Processing Speed subtests vs. Average on one and lower on the other. Fluid Reasoning is closely linked with math ability, so those subtest scores may be informative. Even if these scores don't tell you anything new, I would like to have them to compare when she is reassessed in a few years. The WIAT-III Written Expression score is made up of three subtests - Spelling, Sentence Composition, and Essay Composition, so those scores might be useful now to see whether any specific writing skills are lagging.  

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Was that a standard score or percentile or??

Here's some info on interpreting CELF-5 scores. https://www.pearsonclinical.ca/content/dam/school/global/clinical/canada/programs/celf/CELF-5-language-disorder_cdn_lr.pdf The publisher is saying the optimal cut score (that balances sensitivity and specificity) is 1.33 SD, or a standard score of 80.

 

Well, I assume, given the explanation of the test, that 22 was a scaled score, as in the first table.  The report doesn’t give me any further information. 

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1 hour ago, Megbo said:

I agree with Storygirl's recommendation to follow up about the specific goals, methods, and structure of her math intervention to see whether it is a good fit for her and worth the time investment. Twenty minute sessions seem very short to me, especially in a group setting. 

If they aren't included elsewhere in the report, I might ask the psychologist to send you a copy of the WISC-V and WIAT-III subtest scores. The WISC-V is made up of 10 core subtests and these subtest scores can sometimes provide useful information. For example, it might be helpful to know whether she scored Low Average on both Processing Speed subtests vs. Average on one and lower on the other. Fluid Reasoning is closely linked with math ability, so those subtest scores may be informative. Even if these scores don't tell you anything new, I would like to have them to compare when she is reassessed in a few years. The WIAT-III Written Expression score is made up of three subtests - Spelling, Sentence Composition, and Essay Composition, so those scores might be useful now to see whether any specific writing skills are lagging.  

 

Her subtests scores on Processing were 6-coding and 7-symbol search. Fluid reasoning was 8-matrix reasoning and 10-figure weights.

The written expression subtests were sentence composition-109, essay composition-85, word count-89, theme & development & organization-83, spelling-87. Mathematics subtests were problem solving-90 and numerical operations-76. 

So I have all these numbers, but I don’t yet have them connected with what to do next. Keep enlightening me! 

 

I will ask about the methods and structure tomorrow. One consideration is the teacher now will not be the same as in the fall, so I imagine things could change. 

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35 minutes ago, sangtarah said:

 

Well, I assume, given the explanation of the test, that 22 was a scaled score, as in the first table.  The report doesn’t give me any further information. 

A scaled score has a mean of 10 and usually standard deviations of 3, so no it's not a scaled score. If it's a standard score, the mean is 100 and typically has standard deviations of 10-15. So it's actually really important to figure out what that number was, whether it was a percentage or a standard score or what, because it shows they're shooting the wind or being less than helpful/accurate/reasonable in how they're interpreting it. I see no scenario where a "22" is good unless it's a raw score on a subtest.

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34 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

A scaled score has a mean of 10 and usually standard deviations of 3, so no it's not a scaled score. If it's a standard score, the mean is 100 and typically has standard deviations of 10-15. So it's actually really important to figure out what that number was, whether it was a percentage or a standard score or what, because it shows they're shooting the wind or being less than helpful/accurate/reasonable in how they're interpreting it. I see no scenario where a "22" is good unless it's a raw score on a subtest.

Okay, I went back and looked at the subtest scores. Dd9 either “received” or “attained” a 4 out of 5 (following directions), 5 out of 7 (sentence repetition), 4 out of 6 (sentence assembly), 4 out of 7 (semantic relationships), 5 out of 6 (word classes) = 22 out of 31. So I guess that’s a raw score? 

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Sounds like it. It also seems, at the surface, to be a good score. Did they give you scaled scores for any of that? Usually those subtest scores are converted to scaled scores for this very reason. You have no way to interpret them otherwise to know if they're significant. So is 4/7 on semantics significant for her age? Can't tell without a scaled score.

The other thing to remember is the *reason* the CELF struggles is because it provides models and gives them the answers as multiple choice. So when you pair "poor written expression" on the achievement testing with "poor semantics and sentence assembly" from the CELF (which it isn't exactly saying poor, but if it's maybe a relative weakness), then you'd start to see a pattern there. It would at least be the kinds of questions you'd ask. You want to know *why* the writing is struggling.

I'm not an SLP, but I play one on tv. Haha, just joking. I'm totally hack, but when you look on Linguisystems, here's what you get for semantics. https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/CategoryCenter/OLA!SEM/Semantics_Concepts_Vocabulary_and_Word_Finding.aspx  So it's saying semantics=concepts, vocabulary, word finding. And vocabulary does NOT mean what you think it does. It's not just does she know a word but can she talk about how it relates to other words. When you do this (talking about the parts of things, explaining attributes of things, talking about how things group in categories or are opposites or are not in categories, etc.), you're organizing the brain for word retrieval and forming the linguistic basis for what becomes expository writing. It's also the basis for what you cover in grammar as verbs (functions), adjectives (attributes), etc. 

So then you'll see SLPs using a tool like EET (google it) because they're trying to build the LANGUAGE needed to WRITE. Story Grammar Marker hits on it other ways that aren't exactly the same but are there. Verbalizing/Visualizing (another popular program) does it. And some kids just need a dab and they take off. Some kids have full blown DLD and really benefit from digging in there. 

Her reading comprehension was a little below IQ. It's not terribly discrepant, but still it's something you can watch. That's another place language shows up. How is she with narrating what she reads? 

Yeah, I'm not a great lover of the CELF. With models, multiple choice, and brief numbers of questions, you're just left drawing important conclusions from something that is more of a screener. You might just think about how she is in real life. If she watches her favorite movie or tv show, can she tell you about it? If she reads a book, can she tell you about it? Are her narratives covering the full plot of the story, including character development, a problem, actions, a conclusion, and some consequences/feelings/wrap-up? You're the person with the most data on her language, so you're in the best position to know what's happening, better than these brief tools will be. 

So anyways, back to the scores. They should have given you scaled scores so you could tell what was significant. Raw scores don't really tell you much, because you don't what would be age-appropriate. 

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After hearing back from the school re:CELF-5, I feel fairly confident that dd is okay in that area. 

As far as math, I still need to ask about method/structure of instruction. I was going to ask today, but dd has requested a tour of the school, and that took up a lot of time. I’ll send an email at some point. 

Is the best strategy Ronit Bird? I bought all of Kate Snow’s books as PDF’s on sale awhile back. Any other tips on math?

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For math, what the ps will do is specialized instruction plus classroom instruction. If you're teaching her yourself, it's your call how to do that regular instruction kind of component. I use Evan Moor workbooks for word problems, a series from Carson Dellosa, Tang math, a variety of things. So I teach the skill with Ronit Bird and then I apply it with a variety of materials to make sure he can use it lots of ways. My ds has ASD, so he doesn't generalize well, meaning he needs to do it again and again in lots of settings to make sure it really clicks. Just for the intervention component, Ronit Bird is the bees' knees, but she's assuming you're using it alongside regular classroom methodology.

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