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Article series (FYI): High-school students who take college classes don’t always save time — or money

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From MarketWatch (this is part 3 of 6, Published: May 21, 2019) https://www.marketwatch.com/story/high-school-students-who-take-college-classes-dont-always-save-time-or-money-2019-05-21

Part 1: Inside the nationwide effort to encourage students to take college credits — while still in high school https://www.marketwatch.com/story/inside-the-nationwide-effort-to-encourage-students-to-take-college-credits-while-still-in-high-school-2019-05-20

Part 2: More high-school students are taking college courses, but the most underprivileged are getting left behind https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-high-school-students-are-taking-college-courses-but-the-most-underprivileged-are-getting-left-behind-2019-05-20

“Emory considers college courses students take in high school for credit in certain circumstances, including when they’re taught at a college or university, though not at a student’s high school (Baptiste took college courses both within her high school and at a local community college), Laura Diamond, a spokeswoman for the school, wrote in an email. The school communicates this information to students through its admissions website, Diamond wrote. (She said it was the school’s policy not to comment on a specific student’s case.)

Baptiste was “highly upset” when Emory informed her the credits wouldn’t transfer. But she wasn’t willing to give up the college credit she earned in high school. “I told my mom, ‘I didn’t work this hard two years in a row just for them to not acknowledge any of that,’” she said. 

She decided not to attend Emory. 

Instead, she and her family “pulled as many strings as we could,” and she enrolled at the University of Illinois-Chicago — the day before classes started. 

The school took 100% of Baptiste’s credits. 

Transferring college credits earned in high school isn’t always seamless 

With college costs and student debt rising, policy makers and education leaders have touted the potential of giving high-school students the opportunity to take college courses to curb the amount of time and money they spend on their journey to a degree.

But even as the programs have exploded — in some cases explicitly advertised as an antidote to our nation’s college-affordability problem — there’s limited evidence on how the college credits students earn in high school are applied toward their college degrees and whether they wind up saving the students money.

Researchers are beginning to look more closely at how these courses affect the amount of time and money students spend on a degree. In some cases, the findings have been promising, but rarely definitive. 

Students who graduated from a four-year college in Texas who took college courses while in high school took fewer credit hours as full-time college students than they would have had they not enrolled in a dual-credit program. That’s according to a major studyon dual credit conducted on behalf of the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board.

Still, little national evidence exists that the significant ramp-up in offerings of college courses to high-school students is cutting down on the amount of money students spend on college.

The obstacles high-school students face trying to take their credits to the college they enroll in mirror broader challenges that college students face transferring their credits from college to college. Students who switched colleges between 2004 and 2009 — roughly 35% of college students overall during that time — lost 43% of their credits on average, according to a 2017 report from the U. S. Government Accountability Office.

Colleges differ on how credits earned in high school can be applied

The bulk of colleges — 92% of public and 80% of private schools — say they have a policy of accepting college credits that students earn in high school, according to a 2016 survey from the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. But in practice, whether an individual course is accepted depends on a number of factors, the survey found. 

Those include the type of institution where the credits were earned, whether the receiving college offered an equivalent course and the location where the student took the course (in a high school or college classroom). 

Elite colleges may not always take courses earned in high school, in part because they worry — sometimes due to a misguided bias — that community-college courses aren’t rigorous enough to put students in a position to succeed in the course sequence at their school, said Josh Wyner, vice president at The Aspen Institute and founder and executive director of the College Excellence Program.

At public colleges, the situation is far better, but still complicated. At the beginning of 2018, 30 states required their public institutions to accept college credit earned in high school, according to the Education Commission of the States, a nonprofit focused on education policy research. 

But whether the courses count as general credits or towards a student’s degree program varies by institution and even by department within institutions, said Davis Jenkins, a senior research scholar at Columbia University’s Center for Community College Research.

In other words, even in states where public colleges are required to accept the college credits students earn in high school, those credits don’t necessarily save a student from taking the required courses to complete their college degree. In order for a student to maximize college credits earned in high school, the credits need to apply to their specific degree program, but it’s often the case that these credits transfer, but don’t actually apply towards a student’s degree. 

The variation in credit-transfer policies often means that the onus is on families to figure out how to best maximize the college-credit students earn in high school. 

“Depending on what universities you talk to — with everything — there’s a different answer,” said Jeff Wardle, the principal at Buffalo Grove High School in Buffalo Grove, Illinois. He’s part of a high-school district that has embarked on a major expansion of college course offerings over the past few years. “We try to educate our students and parents to be proactive,” he said.

Even so, “we’ve run into problems,” he said. In some cases, that’s because universities change their approach to transferring certain courses from year-to-year.

...

Ramirez initially hoped to be a nurse. But after taking a biology course at Richard J. Daley College, one of the schools in Chicago’s community college system, and earning a C, he decided nursing wasn’t for him. In his senior year of high school, Ramirez took criminal justice, with the idea that he might wind up becoming a police officer. But he struggled in the course and ended up withdrawing before completing it.

When he enrolled in Daley as full-time college student the following year, Ramirez discovered that his experience taking the school’s courses in high school left him with a low starting GPA. “So that kind of sucked,” he said.

If he had the opportunity to take college classes in high school again, Ramirez said he probably would, given that it helped him narrow his career path. 

But the courses didn’t do much to save him time or money on the path towards getting his associate’s degree in business. He’s already attending college for free through a combination of grants and scholarships. 

Credits earned in high school can complicate college choice

Even when students follow a clear sequence and receive guidance on choosing courses that will apply to their degrees, challenges can arise. 

In El Paso, early college high-school programs — which offer students the opportunity to earn their high-school and associate’s degrees at the same time — are tightly integrated with the community-college system and the local four-year college, the University of Texas El Paso. 

Like Summer Baptiste, some students find themselves being pulled in one direction by their credits and in a different direction by their aspirations.

Students who earn their associate’s degree by their junior year of high school are eligible for a scholarship to take classes at UTEP during their senior year. That gives them the opportunity to earn even more free college credit — sometimes cutting down the time they’d spend as a full-time college student to less than two years.

But it also binds them to UTEP in a way that makes it difficult to consider other colleges, either outside of El Paso or even Texas, that might offer a more transformative experience.

UTEP, which is set between the Franklin Mountains and the Mexican border, offers many reputable programs and is a top-tier research university. But it’s also part of the geographically isolated community where students have spent most of their lives. 

Lailah Leeser, the guidance counselor at Valle Verde Early College High School, tries to encourage students and their parents to consider all of their options and explore the idea of leaving El Paso — which is where she grew up, left for college and ultimately returned to later — at least for a time.

“I tell kids the best experience that I had in college, it was great sitting in those classes, but it was the people I met, people I would have never had the opportunity to meet if I didn’t go,” she said.

But it can be hard to sway students away from the idea of leaving their families. The family-focused Hispanic culture that dominates El Paso means that parents often want to have their children remain close by. In addition, it’s hard to pass up both the time and money savings offered at UTEP. 

That dynamic is why for years Paul Covey, the principal of Valle Verde, didn’t offer students the option to finish their associate’s degree a year early and head to UTEP. “I didn’t want our kids to be trapped,” he said.

Ultimately, Covey said he worked with stakeholders to develop a system at his school where students could spend some time at UTEP, but wouldn’t earn too many upper-division credits that would be hard to transfer to another college. 

“Our belief is that it’s not up to me to decide where they should go,” he said. “If they choose to go to MIT, where we’ve had kids go to, or go to Columbia where we’ve had kids go to, my job is to support them, not to roadblock the kid from doing that, even though if they go to those schools, their 60 hours here don’t transfer.””

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We decided a few years back when we were choosing what path to take for high school, that it didn’t matter if the classes transferred or not as long as they didn’t count against DD for scholarships. Our goal was to give her the level of work and interest and social interaction that she needed in the short term at a price we could afford, and the local college offered that. 

So far, every school we’ve talked to either will accept most of her credits on an articulation agreement, or will evaluate for placement (for example, DD’s Intro to sociology will transfer without issue at the most recent school we talked to, but her Race, Class and Gender may not because there is not a direct equivalent because they have separate classes for gender studies-they will have to look at the syllabus and figure out where it fits into their course sequence) And with so many students doing AP and IB and DE coursework in high School, many of the more competitive schools that do not accept transfers assume that level of coursework coming in, so it isn’t a waste there, either. 

What I see here a lot (both from homeschoolers and from PS families) is people taking lower level DE classes that their student may not actually have to take  (college algebra usually isn’t an expected class for any STEM major, English Comp 1 often can be waived if the ACT or SAT score is high enough) and then being upset when they don’t transfer. 

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One important thing the public high school doesn't want you to know is that your child does not have to take a DE course for college credit.  Many times, the course choice is gen ed full inclusion or DE....a student who would benefit from the honors level that isn't offered is better off in the long run taking the DE class for just high school credit and improving their study skills, as long as they can maintain the high school gpa they need for their merit scholarships.   As mentioned above, College Algebra/Trig is often offered only as DE in my area. One can save themselves some $$ and take it only for high school credit, as that course is not going to transfer towards many University programs.  Additionally, DE courses often are transferred in to U, but the grade doesn't go towards the U gpa.  Peers will have that padding, so consider when scheduling courses if needing to hold on to or qualify for a merit scholarship. Its becoming quite common for top students in high school to DE out of their humanities, which allows them to grad college in 3 in some majors, or earn two degrees in four years.

Edited by HeighHo
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Our philosophy has been to take college credits when that is the best way to accomplish high school classes and to provide the most enriching (and sometimes just practical) high school experience and to let the college credit chips fall where they fall. 

That said, it has worked out very well for my two current college kids. Both had 30+ de hours. One is using that time to take the extra credits needed to sit for the CPA exam while using his excellent undergraduate scholarship. The other is set to graduate 3 semesters early. So it worked out very well for both of them (at good but no where near “elite” schools). 

For my third ds who is starting de we are actually looking at it more from an angle of how things will transfer. Still not the primary goal but the experience of the first two has made it more of a consideration. 

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35 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

 

What I see here a lot (both from homeschoolers and from PS families) is people taking lower level DE classes that their student may not actually have to take  (college algebra usually isn’t an expected class for any STEM major, English Comp 1 often can be waived if the ACT or SAT score is high enough) and then being upset when they don’t transfer. 


I just want to clarify - 
I agree with much of what you've said here.  I'd like to add the caveat that while you are correct (college algebra) - many parents feel very uncomfortable teaching Algebra or anything past it.  When this happens, those students are *far* better served by enrolling in CC and to continue forward movement in math rather than be paralyzed by inept teaching.  (-Speaking as the inept teacher, I am challenged once we hit about 1/2 of the way into Algebra 2 and my kids paid for my tentative abilities here.)

I think the posted information is accurate.  I think parents, especially homeschool parents need to recognize that everything doesn't transfer or, if it does, can transfer differently.  For example:
While Comp I can sometimes be waived, I do not feel that a student who scores high on the ACT/SAT in the writing portion can necessarily translate those scores into focused and functional writing.  If they can't write an essay or a research paper well, they should take Comp I and Comp II.  Here, our University offers a single class - rhetoric, 3 credits.  Conversely, if you take Comp I at the CC, it transfers in as NOTHING.  A student must take Comp I, Comp II, and Oral Communication/Speech to transfer in as the same 3 credit Rhetoric course.  That said, my kids have (so far) taken Comp I/Comp II in their junior year of high school and OC in senior year.  They still walk into the U with that rhetoric complete and we/they didn't pay $972 for the rhetoric class.

Caveat:
We found that by taking classes at the CC, we gained non-mommy grades.  We felt there was value in the practice of having a light/moderate intro into juggling life and college courses.
However, DS took fairly light courses his junior/senior year.  He went into college with a ton of (transferrable) credits.  These gen ed credits were his fluff - his easy As in the engineering program.  His scholarships spin on his University GPA (not his overall GPA) so when all of his "easy" courses were at the CC, they didn't count towards his University GPA.  He went into Engineering only taking the harder freshman and sophomore courses with no padding of easier courses like Rhetoric.  Painful lesson.

We are having DD take fewer courses - but harder courses.  Her junior year she took Human Anatomy & Physiology so she could earn that hard A, but leave some softer courses for the U when she transfers.

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37 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:


I just want to clarify - 
I agree with much of what you've said here.  I'd like to add the caveat that while you are correct (college algebra) - many parents feel very uncomfortable teaching Algebra or anything past it.  When this happens, those students are *far* better served by enrolling in CC and to continue forward movement in math rather than be paralyzed by inept teaching.  (-Speaking as the inept teacher, I am challenged once we hit about 1/2 of the way into Algebra 2 and my kids paid for my tentative abilities here.)

 

 

There are other choices than uncomfortable parent or  DE at CC or High school -- online, private tutoring, etc.  many of which are cheaper than DE at CC in some states and higher quality and a better fit for depth and pacing.  Math can be placed into without transferring credits, as can FL.

Edited by HeighHo

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1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

One important thing the public high school doesn't want you to know is that your child does not have to take a DE course for college credit.  Many times, the course choice is gen ed full inclusion or DE....a student who would benefit from the honors level that isn't offered is better off in the long run taking the DE class for just high school credit and improving their study skills, as long as they can maintain the high school gpa they need for their merit scholarships.   As mentioned above, College Algebra/Trig is often offered only as DE in my area. One can save themselves some $$ and take it only for high school credit, as that course is not going to transfer towards many University programs.  Additionally, DE courses often are transferred in to U, but the grade doesn't go towards the U gpa.  Peers will have that padding, so consider when scheduling courses if needing to hold on to or qualify for a merit scholarship. Its becoming quite common for top students in high school to DE out of their humanities, which allows them to grad college in 3 in some majors, or earn two degrees in four years.

This is so true. The high schools are buckling under NCLB and since they are not required to serve the upper end of students as they are the lower, they are passing the task onto the CCs. If it isn't required under the definition of "basic education" the school can eliminate the course legally and tell students to move on to DE if they need the class for college admission. It's frustrating as a parent to watch it unfold.

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Yep. Dd is signed up for two this fall that won't transfer, and we don't plan on them transferring. They are simply the best, most cost effective way to accomplish what she needs to for high school. Sometimes the benefit is in the classroom experience, or gaining a potential letter of recommendation. Sometimes the benefit of taking a class is to, um, learn something.

Our best DE option for us likely won't transfer most credits to dd's top choice colleges, and I guess that's fine. Several schools will let kids with previous exposure take the second course in a sequence and grant credit for both the first and second course at the successful completion of the second course.

 

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1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:


I just want to clarify - 
I agree with much of what you've said here.  I'd like to add the caveat that while you are correct (college algebra) - many parents feel very uncomfortable teaching Algebra or anything past it.  When this happens, those students are *far* better served by enrolling in CC and to continue forward movement in math rather than be paralyzed by inept teaching.  (-Speaking as the inept teacher, I am challenged once we hit about 1/2 of the way into Algebra 2 and my kids paid for my tentative abilities here.)

I think the posted information is accurate.  I think parents, especially homeschool parents need to recognize that everything doesn't transfer or, if it does, can transfer differently.  For example:
While Comp I can sometimes be waived, I do not feel that a student who scores high on the ACT/SAT in the writing portion can necessarily translate those scores into focused and functional writing.  If they can't write an essay or a research paper well, they should take Comp I and Comp II.  Here, our University offers a single class - rhetoric, 3 credits.  Conversely, if you take Comp I at the CC, it transfers in as NOTHING.  A student must take Comp I, Comp II, and Oral Communication/Speech to transfer in as the same 3 credit Rhetoric course.  That said, my kids have (so far) taken Comp I/Comp II in their junior year of high school and OC in senior year.  They still walk into the U with that rhetoric complete and we/they didn't pay $972 for the rhetoric class.

Caveat:
We found that by taking classes at the CC, we gained non-mommy grades.  We felt there was value in the practice of having a light/moderate intro into juggling life and college courses.
However, DS took fairly light courses his junior/senior year.  He went into college with a ton of (transferrable) credits.  These gen ed credits were his fluff - his easy As in the engineering program.  His scholarships spin on his University GPA (not his overall GPA) so when all of his "easy" courses were at the CC, they didn't count towards his University GPA.  He went into Engineering only taking the harder freshman and sophomore courses with no padding of easier courses like Rhetoric.  Painful lesson.

We are having DD take fewer courses - but harder courses.  Her junior year she took Human Anatomy & Physiology so she could earn that hard A, but leave some softer courses for the U when she transfers.

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought if this!

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This is so specific to areas and schools- I live in a poor rural area.  They dropped the gifted program 5 years ago.  No one even teaches higher level math.  The school is utilizing online DE for any kid who is 'advanced ' even as early as 10th grade.  Since the public school teachers aren't qualified by the college, the students do everything online as a college atudent, and the teacher is there as a coach.  No matter if the classes transfer for the credit or not, it's still much better for students to do these classes!  They are the most rigorous available.  Right now they offer history, psychology,  sociology, government, college algebra,  chem, bio, and English 1.  If your kid didn't take them, it would be hard for them have a college ready transcript bc the school just doesn't offer the other classes.  

 

In looking at the courses offered and different college transfer agreements, most basic courses transfer.  All the places I've checked want the writing 1 and 2 and public speaking - 9 credit hours, preferably done the first year.  DD should do them all this year on campus - which imo is better than the public schools online option. 

 

As for math, my DD already placed into calc 1, but several degrees only ask for college algebra (she's planning to take calc instead )  but even if it doesn't count, I still think college algebra is z great place to start.  Our public schooled kids are doing Aleks math only starting in 5th grade!  They say it allows faster kids to work ahead.  Teachers are basically coaches and classes are a mix of preal, Al1, Geometry,  ect.  So no formal teaching.  Online option is even allowing kids to take am entire year on the course vs 1 semester if they prefer.  

 

I guess my point is that in sone areas, online college de is allowing students to get more advanced courses than the school can offer.  Our school has just 40-50 kids per grade, with only about 5-8 going to college.  The DE classes are giving kids who otherwise wouldn't go a leg up.  Classes are 66 per credit hour, so it's still expensive for some families, but much less than an on campus class.  

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I've got DD enrolled for two her senior year, fall semester. One is for the content- computer applications and presentations. I think she needs that to be ready for school. The other I agonized over. I went back and forth and finally put get in comp I. Her ACT is high enough she could probably skip this, but she needs practice writing in demand and more quickly. She needs that answering to someone else. At this point I'm not going to pay high dollar for an online homeschool class when she will get college credit for this for less money. I am not putting her in comp 2 nor any other class 2nd semester. We are going to do English lit at home and history all year and then try to clep out of it. She'll get the same three credits for less money with clep, and I can control the content for our last go through. Those were the others the professors said she ought to take and get out of the way. 

Edited by 2_girls_mommy
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Neither should they. From where I stand, there is an immense dilution in what constitutes a "college" course these days. DS has taken a few, but they are not even his hardest classes, which should tell you something. 

I also think guidance counselors at various high schools are doing a huge disservice not advising students that their college classes may not even gain them admission to selective schools never mind have credits transfer.

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34 minutes ago, FairProspects said:

This is so true. The high schools are buckling under NCLB and since they are not required to serve the upper end of students as they are the lower, they are passing the task onto the CCs. If it isn't required under the definition of "basic education" the school can eliminate the course legally and tell students to move on to DE if they need the class for college admission. It's frustrating as a parent to watch it unfold.

 

It is frustrating to hear as a citizen.  Here the Regent's Advanced Diploma only requires the three University prep math credits - Alg 1, Geo, Alg 2, so quite a few that have to choose between study hall and DE for 11th and 12th grades.   Spreading the word that one can take DE math at the high school without paying for college credit has upped the numbers enrolled in CA/T, AP Calc and DE Calc 2.   The sharp words at the BoE meetings from those who believe its 'stealing' to pay for such 'elite' courses out of the high school budget has ceased, as the attorneys have pointed out that compelled students, under state law, are to have appropriate classes that prepare them for the class to career transition.  Its cheaper for the district to to offer DE or AP  at the high school than pay for DE at the CC plus the transport -- 15s can't drive independently.   And in the end, its cheaper to have students in appropriate classes than in multiple study halls or easy classes -- my district found that out the hard way.  It taxes the SRO and the security team to have to deal with that many bored students...and there really isn't anything the Pysch can do, as the library has been underfunded for years, so the bored can't even work on their SAT prep or college apps. 

 

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2_girls_mommy- my DD is going for the same reasons.  I didnt want her to start with writing,  since it's her least favorite and she still needs work on it, but after talking with administration and the writing lab, it's what was recommended and having sone one else to answer to should help.

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In our state all the public Us take all the CC credits seamlessly. So we were encouraged to have our son start CC full time at 15 and then transfer at 17. It all seemed like such a great idea until we realized that that’s not necessarily a feasible and age appropriate situation, campus housing was greatly affected and all but two of the UCs said he could not live on campus with freshman. Thankfully around October we got a clue and had him start applying out of state and private universities as a freshman. We called our state U and asked their advice, should da apply as freshman or transfer ? They said he could do either and recommended transfer, citing the slightly increased acceptance rate for transfer students. 

It was really bad advice! Due to housing situations and my sons (understandable) desire to finally have a chance to shine among his peers we really would have been better off having him apply as a freshman and they still would have granted all the 59 credits he earned! Applying as a transfer student is a VERY specific path and each UC has VERY different classes they want you to take. 

So, at PennState my son’s credits are kind of meh. They gave him 12 humanities which is great, he won’t have to re-do those. For the math and engineering and Science they’re awarding all the credits as Gen Ed which is nice because it’ll help him graduate on time. But he will have to re-take all of the STEM course at PennState.

We are fine with this because we feel like he got an affordable high school education and really learned a lot about college and the Big World and responsibility, taking to Profs, office hours etc. 

so him going to an absolutely gigantic college 2000 miles away isn’t scary to us since we have seen him handle himself in an adult world with aplomb.

HOWEVER he didn’t really get that far ahead or save tons of money. 🙂  and there were other intrinsic things that might have been better, had we enrolled him in the super academic three day Classical school. So if someone asked me if we would do it again I really don’t know. 

 

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16 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

This is so specific to areas and schools- I live in a poor rural area.  They dropped the gifted program 5 years ago.  No one even teaches higher level math.  The school is utilizing online DE for any kid who is 'advanced ' even as early as 10th grade.  Since the public school teachers aren't qualified by the college, the students do everything online as a college student, and the teacher is there as a coach.  No matter if the classes transfer for the credit or not, it's still much better for students to do these classes!  They are the most rigorous available.  Right now they offer history, psychology,  sociology, government, college algebra,  chem, bio, and English 1.  If your kid didn't take them, it would be hard for them have a college ready transcript bc the school just doesn't offer the other classes. 

Our district does DE for all of their upper level classes, as well. The classes that are at the school for juniors and seniors are mostly remedial. There are 3-4 "dual credit" classes at the school and everything else is online through one of the virtual school providers (Edmentum?) or the CC. Very little transfers as specific credits because many colleges in our region don't want to take the credits from online courses or those taught at the high school unless it was specifically their course.

The larger neighboring district does have enough advanced courses to keep kids busy until they are Seniors, but they play gate keeper, too. They state right in their course descriptions that Precalculus is only open to Juniors and Seniors.

Edited by MamaSprout
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With dd headed into 9th, we are weighing our options with DE too. In our state, DE is free at the community college (except for books and fees, although in some places those are free too), and there is an agreement with all of the public unis and quite a few of the private to take all the credits. Which seems like a good deal on the surface. One thing I hate about it is that the DE pathway is pretty strictly defined, and to take full advantage of it, dd will have to take classes there that I would prefer to teach at home, aligned to her interests. I hate feeling like we can either jump through the hoops to save money or customize her education and roll the dice with regards to scholarships, etc.

But I know of at least one case in which DE wasn't very helpful. The student completed something like 60 credits, which transferred to our state's flagship with no issues. But because she was still technically considered a freshman (all those credits hadn't been officially added to her transcript yet), she wasn't able to register for classes with the upperclassmen, and therefore wasn't able to get the classes she needed. She ended up leaving school in her second semester. I'm not sure what her next step will be, possibly transferring to a different college. What good is getting all those credits in HS if you just have to pay for a year of wasted time?

I do not like this game at. all.

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When we went to the School Fair in Bogota (May 2018) there were reps from UPennsylvania, Duke, Georgetown and Harvard, who spoke to us.  The information was coming at us "Fast and Furious".  One of them made a  comment, regarding students who take AP or DE courses. My impression was that AP courses are probably not going to be considered for Credit and do not impress them much, if at all. .  With DE courses, I believe they are more impressed by them, when considering an applicant, but whether or not credits would transfer in, is another issue.

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9 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

<snip>

But he will have to re-take all of the STEM course at PennState.

<snip>

 

Those are the courses they must be the most suspicious of and if he is a STEM Major, they need to know that he was taught the way they want those courses taught.  Great school. Congrats to him.

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9 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

It was really bad advice! Due to housing situations and my sons (understandable) desire to finally have a chance to shine among his peers we really would have been better off having him apply as a freshman and they still would have granted all the 59 credits he earned! Applying as a transfer student is a VERY specific path and each UC has VERY different classes they want you to take. 

 

States can be so different! In Texas, every public university and CC has a 42 credit Core that every student has to complete. It does vary a bit from school to school (some require Communications, some Lit, some 3 sciences, some 2 science, one math, etc) BUT the 42 credit block transfers together as one big unit. So if you're Core Complete at a CC, even if you don't finish an AA or AS, you can still be Core Complete at a university. Here, you apply as a freshman if you're still in high school and you don't transfer the credits until after you're admitted. I'm a bit worried about Peachy Doodle's scenario, though.

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29 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

 Here, you apply as a freshman if you're still in high school and you don't transfer the credits until after you're admitted. I'm a bit worried about Peachy Doodle's scenario, though.

 

From the 4th part of 6th: The line between high school and college is blurring, but is that really a good thing? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-line-between-high-school-and-college-is-blurring-but-is-that-really-a-good-thing-2019-05-22?mod=jillian-berman

“Marilyn Garcia has been going to college since she was 14 years old. 

The now 23-year-old took her first course on a community-college campus when she was a freshman in high school. By the middle of her senior year, she had completed her associate’s degree and started taking classes at her local four-year university, the University of Texas El Paso.

When she entered UTEP as a full-time college student, at age 18, Garcia brought 90 credits with her. She graduated with her bachelor’s degree at age 20. 

In some ways Garcia’s impressive story represents the ideal outcome of an early college high school, a program that allows students to pursue their high-school diploma and associate’s degree at the same time. But Garcia’s story also points to some of the challenges that can come from blurring the line between high school and college. 

One of the consequences of the explosive growth in opportunities for high-school students to take college courses over the past several years is that teens as young as 14 are expected to both learn like college students and even think like them about their futures, accelerating the time they spend preparing for a specific job or degree. At the same time, policy makers, educators and others are increasingly considering courses that look and feel like high school — teens are the only students and they’re taught by high school teachers — on par with college. 

For students, that truncated experience can have both benefits and drawbacks.

As Garcia describes it, the first two years she took college courses — in the ninth and 10th grades — she “wasn’t mature enough” to take them seriously, though she ultimately buckled down as a junior and senior. 

By the time Garcia started as a full-time college student, at the age of 18, she quickly realized the amount of time she had before entering the real world — two years — wouldn’t be enough to prepare her for that daunting task. Garcia, who had aspirations of completing a Ph.D in sociology, didn’t learn how important research courses would be to pursuing that path until a year and a half into her college career. 

On the advice of a professor, Garcia decided to stay at UTEP for an extra two years to get her master’s degree — ultimately spending four years at the school like a typical college student. She focused her thesis on how age-related stigma affected the plans and academic performance of other early college high school graduates. 

Now Garcia is in a sociology Ph.D program at the University of California-Irvine. “My age was a big influence,” Garcia said of her decision to stay at UTEP for her master’s. “I would have been going into a Ph.D program at 20. That was kind of intimidating for me.”

...

By occupying a middle space between the two systems, high-school students should also be better prepared to attend college full-time, said Julia Duncheon, an assistant professor at UTEP, who studies dual credit, dual enrollment, and early colleges. That, at least, is the educational philosophy behind duel enrollment. 

But, “the middle space does not exist,” Duncehon said, a sentiment that’s based on her research. Either high-school students sit in a college classroom with a college professor, or they take a course with a college syllabus taught in a high school by a high-school teacher.

When high schools and colleges partner to offer these courses, they need to think more critically about what the courses should look like and ways in which they can effectively support teachers charged with teaching these courses, Duncheon said. 

“To what extent should we be addressing developmental needs?” she said, “and to what extent should we be enforcing college norms?” 

But for many proponents of this dual-credit system, graying the line between high school and college is exactly the point.

High-school graduation isn’t a destination

In Chicago, now former mayor Rahm Emanuel pushed the city’s K-12 public-school system and its community-college system to work more closely together to offer more college-level courses to the city’s high-school students. The effort is part of a broader strategy to move students towards “a minimum of 14th grade,” Emanuel said in a phone interview late last year. 

The goal “was to make sure that all of our students were better prepared for the economy of tomorrow,” he said. “I’ve always wanted high-school graduation to be a milestone not a destination.”

...

Is it reasonable to expect a 15 or 16-year-old to learn like a college student?

Despite all of these benefits, whether a 15 or 16-year-old can be expected to learn like a college student is a valid question and one that high schools and colleges are actively working through. 

At Michele Clark Academic Prep Magnet High School in Chicago, students taking courses over the summer at the local community college as part of the school’s dual enrollment program were accompanied by a teacher specifically hired to ride the bus, sit in on the students’ classes and tutor them. 

The school came up with that idea after officials learned that some students struggled to adjust and a couple even failed their courses. “We were like ‘oh yeah they’re going, see y’all make me proud’ and they weren’t going,” said Charles Anderson, the school’s principal. 

From that experience, the school learned they needed to better communicate with and support students who as teenagers may not fully understand what it means to be in college. For example, Anderson said, some students didn’t realize the difference between skipping a 50-minute course in high school and a 50-minute course in college. “In college, it’s like missing the whole week,” Anderson said.

The school developed more robust policies to monitor attendance, including requiring students to check out when they leave the high school and check in via email or Google GOOG, +0.95%  classroom when they arrive at the college campus. 

By the time the students are seniors, Anderson said the school works to wean them off the hand holding — which is remarkably different from what they’ll experience in college — and “we keep trying to push them out of the nest.” That may mean checking in on their college grades, but not necessarily on attendance. 

In order for students to get the most out of taking college courses in high school, experts agree that they should have a certain level of maturity. That includes having some sense of their college and even post-college plans, so they can choose courses that line up with those plans. 

At Buffalo Grove High School, students choose a pathway, like health or criminal justice, as early as ninth grade. The pathways, which are part of an effort the district describes as “diploma plus,” all end in a dual-credit course and an internship.

...

At some schools, officials are acutely aware of the challenges rushing through high school and college can pose to students. Garcia’s college graduation at 20 was made possible through an innovative partnership in El Paso, which provides a scholarship for high school students who complete their associate’s degree by the end of their junior year to enroll at the local four-year university, the University of Texas, El Paso.

In some cases, students have up to three years of college credit under their belt by the time they finish high school. That worries Paul Covey, the principal at Valle Verde Early College High School. 

“There’s a whole social emotional growth aspect that I have a problem with,” Covey said. “I don’t think that college is completely expendable.” 

And some of Covey’s students are already questioning what it might mean to leave college so young. This fall, Emily Early, a senior, said that she planned to attend a university where the bulk of her credits would transfer, graduating from college at age 20 and becoming a teacher.

She’d love to teach creative writing, but she wonders whether that’s realistic given that the course is typically offered to older high school students. “That’s teaching 17- and 18-year-olds as a 21-year-old,” she said. “That’s a scary thing.””

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3 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

 

The larger neighboring district does have enough advanced courses to keep kids busy until they are Seniors, but they play gate keeper, too. They state right in their course descriptions that Precalculus is only open to Juniors and Seniors.

 

That's how I found out a student could take a DE course at the high school without paying...the provider, the CC, refused to enroll underage/undergrade(is that a word?) students (they've changed the policy since then).  With no internet available at the high school, the math chair made the practical decision and put the 14s and 15s that were 9th or 10th or 11th in class for no college credit. Here in NY, K cutoff is Dec 31 and 8th grade Alg is the norm as state law requires each district to offer 8th graders some high school credit classes...so plenty of students will not be 16 until mid Jr year and grade skippers not until mid Sr year......and the cutoff at the CC was both age/grade.  That policy means students with no math for 10th and 11th, and some for fall of 12th if they are at a high school that refuses to serve all demographics assigned.   We ended up having to do internet classes anyway, as the school wouldn't offer independent study on their dime to anyone that was not compelled.

 

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Where is my post??  It has been quoted twice and yet it's gone...

 

edited to add. maybe I'm crazy because I went to the little bell at the top, clicked from there to the Likes and then suddenly it reappeared.  Strange.....

Edited by Calming Tea
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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

 

FBy the time Garcia started as a full-time college student, at the age of 18, she quickly realized the amount of time she had before entering the real world — two years — wouldn’t be enough to prepare her for that daunting task. Garcia, who had aspirations of completing a Ph.D in sociology, didn’t learn how important research courses would be to pursuing that path until a year and a half into her college career. 

On the advice of a professor, Garcia decided to stay at UTEP for an extra two years to get her master’s degree — ultimately spending four years at the school like a typical college student. She focused her thesis on how age-related stigma affected the plans and academic performance of other early college high school graduates. 

Now Garcia is in a sociology Ph.D program at the University of California-Irvine. “My age was a big influence,” Garcia said of her decision to stay at UTEP for her master’s. “I would have been going into a Ph.D program at 20. That was kind of intimidating for me.”

....

At some schools, officials are acutely aware of the challenges rushing through high school and college can pose to students. Garcia’s college graduation at 20 was made possible through an innovative partnership in El Paso, which provides a scholarship for high school students who complete their associate’s degree by the end of their junior year to enroll at the local four-year university, the University of Texas, El Paso.

[;]'\

 

She’d love to teach creative writing, but she wonders whether that’s realistic given that the course is typically offered to older high school students. “That’s teaching 17- and 18-year-olds as a 21-year-old,” she said. “That’s a scary thing.””

 

This was EXACTLY why we changed courses for our son!! He, and we, were sitting here thinking, does he really want to be working full time in Silicon Valley (his goal) at age 20 with college done and completely behind him?  Those jobs are exciting and rewarding but they're also very stressful, requiring a lot of people-skills that take time to learn, and maturity- when to hold your tongue, how to speak to designers with respect when they're asking you to make pigs fly, how to handle long nights and weekends and manage down-time so you don't burn out.  These are things that just take plain old TIME to learn.  And, not only that, but what about the time during college that you'd have for internships...you could end up with two or even three internships during college, but if you speed through college and go straight into the workworld with only one, or no, internships, you're just jumping in at a very young age.  

AND I want my son to also just experience the college life of whatever the college life is.  Obviously I hope an dpray that the stupidity that sometimes encompasses college life will never be part of it, but I also don't want to take away the opportunities to be part of the young Libertarian club, or the hiking club or the robotic club or whatever it is that strikes his interest....

I am so thankful we got a clue.

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2 hours ago, chiguirre said:

States can be so different! In Texas, every public university and CC has a 42 credit Core that every student has to complete. It does vary a bit from school to school (some require Communications, some Lit, some 3 sciences, some 2 science, one math, etc) BUT the 42 credit block transfers together as one big unit. So if you're Core Complete at a CC, even if you don't finish an AA or AS, you can still be Core Complete at a university. Here, you apply as a freshman if you're still in high school and you don't transfer the credits until after you're admitted. I'm a bit worried about Peachy Doodle's scenario, though.


I wonder if it might be helpful to apply for summer admission before the normal freshman year?   That way, maybe one random online class could be taken over the summer, and the credits would have time to be entered.  

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16 hours ago, Lanny said:

When we went to the School Fair in Bogota (May 2018) there were reps from UPennsylvania, Duke, Georgetown and Harvard, who spoke to us.  The information was coming at us "Fast and Furious".  One of them made a  comment, regarding students who take AP or DE courses. My impression was that AP courses are probably not going to be considered for Credit and do not impress them much, if at all. .  With DE courses, I believe they are more impressed by them, when considering an applicant, but whether or not credits would transfer in, is another issue.

Actually all of those schools give credit for 5s, and in some cases 4s, on all (Harvard, Duke) or most (Penn, Georgetown) AP exams. But Harvard and Penn do not accept any DE courses, Georgetown will accept a maximum of 4, and Duke does not accept any credits from CCs at all, whether they are DE or not.

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Part 5 of 6: Meet the students who are earning a college degree — in high school By Jillian Berman Published: May 23, 2019 8:24 a.m. ET

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/at-these-high-schools-students-also-earn-a-college-degree-2019-05-23?mod=jillian-berman

“As educators and nonprofits began experimenting with these schools, they identified Texas as a fruitful state for launching them, partly due to the relative autonomy the state gives to its school districts, according to Chris Coxon, the managing director of programs at Educate Texas, an initiative of Communities Foundation of Texas , an organization focused on transforming the state’s public and higher education systems.

In addition, both the size and demographics of the Texas student population meant that the state was a good place to test whether early-college high schools could be scaled across different types of regions and metropolitan areas, he said. 

El Paso launched its first early college, on the Mission campus of El Paso Community College in 2006, funded in part by a grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. The region opened its second early college on the Valle Verde campus of EPCC in 2007 and then launched Northwest and Transmountain in 2008. 

And officials have been expanding the program at a relatively fast clip ever since. These days, there are 12 early colleges in six of the 12 school districts that encompass El Paso with plans for several more.

Research shows early colleges are effective, but it’s unclear exactly why

The small body of research that exists on early colleges shows them to be effective at getting their students to and through college, but we still don’t have much evidence yet on what exactly makes them effective or what makes one school more effective than another, said Julia Duncheon, an assistant professor at UTEP, who studies dual credit, dual enrollment, and early colleges. 

If communities are going to scale these programs, they should be scaling what works and a too-rapid pace of expansion makes that less likely, she said. 

“The way that the early-college model is playing out is a reflection of the broader national emphasis” on signals of college completion, like the number of degrees and credits earned, Duncheon said. “My question is what about quality, what about substance?”

...

‘We have really long career goals’

The students have varying goals and motivations for attending what can often be a more academically rigorous version of high school; in addition to extra homework the college courses sometimes require throughout the year, students often spend their summers in school to make sure they’re on track to graduate with an associate’s degree. 

Several mentioned a parent who was interested in saving time and money or just generally getting ahead, but many students had their own reasons for attending. 

“Most of us here either want to be a doctor or an engineer,” said Kate Rosales, a sophomore at Northwest. “We have really long career goals,” so any academic head start they can get is valuable, she added. 

Some appreciate the chance to practice some of the more intangible challenges that can come up in college, like how to manage your time or concentrate effectively on a reading assignment that can stretch dozens of pages. 

“It’s better to learn those now when you’re at community college then go to a big university and completely blow it,” said Deon Maxwell, a junior at Valle Verde. “We get all of the rookie mistakes out of the way.” 

But in addition to facilitating students’ ambition, many of the El Paso early colleges with their outdoor hallways, portable classrooms, relatively flexible schedules and access to a community college campus provide a vibe that some prefer to a more traditional high school environment. 

“Right off the bat, I want to say that this school is so small but in a way that’s a good thing,” Emily Early, a Valle Verde senior, answered excitedly when asked about her experience. “You get to know people on a whole new level and you get to know your teachers on a whole new level. Your teachers see you as a face and a name rather than just being a number or a grade.”

That closeness offers other benefits too, Maxwell says. “They treat us a lot more like adults here.””

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10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Actually all of those schools give credit for 5s, and in some cases 4s, on all (Harvard, Duke) or most (Penn, Georgetown) AP exams. But Harvard and Penn do not accept any DE courses, Georgetown will accept a maximum of 4, and Duke does not accept any credits from CCs at all, whether they are DE or not.

 

AGreed- in our experience applying to highly selective universities, they are much more willing to accept and give credit for AP courses than DE, and consider AP to be more impressive as well...Don''t get me wrong, they are impressed by DE, but due to the highly varying quality as well as content of DE courses, they're not as highly valued as AP, overall.

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Interesting that that one study said that minorities had LESS access to DE. Not true here. The ps will not pay for DE for the white kids, but the immigrants in our school get a free ride. Access to public monies for DE go first to the free lunch crowd, and then if any money is left over (it isn't), then the non free lunch crowd. 

DE was a good choice for my kids. My oldest was able to finish her undergrad in 4 years--rare for a music major at a rigorous school. Next one got IN to USNA because of her DE. Next one was able to handle ROTC and a job because of the extra wiggle room, as did her brother. His job got him a plum assignment at his first military station. Next one has a summer job again due to her DE, which got her very nice scholarships at her school. Perhaps our DE experience is colored by the fact that ours is a 4 year uni, not a CC. I was thinking about DE today--my oldest has been in college for 17 years!

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Part 6 of 6: How earning a college degree while in high school changed this student’s life https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-earning-a-college-degree-while-in-high-school-changed-this-students-life-2019-05-24

“MarketWatch: How did you find out about the early college high school?

Raul Gomez: My brother was part of the first class at Mission Early College High School, which was the very first early college in El Paso. When he joined, I was about a 5th or 6th grader. 

I wanted to have that same experience. He graduated before I was accepted into a program. It was a very proud moment and I wanted to experience the same thing. 

MarketWatch: How did your experience attending an early college impact you?

Gomez: I know it changed me. 

I wasn’t too sure if I was going to be able to go to college. Here in El Paso, there’s a very strong Mexican cultural influence. My family was basically — and they’re still — very Mexican. When it comes to Mexican culture, you have to find a significant other by the time you’re 20, 21 and then have kids when you’re 22, start your family and then, of course, give your parents grandkids and what not. 

To some degree that was my mind set. It was one of my bigger drivers, but after entering the early college all of that changed. 

Completing my education is my biggest goal — making sure that I have my medical degree and then my master’s before actually starting a family or looking for a job.

MarketWatch: What were your first impressions of the early college?

Gomez: It was a very strange place at Mission. I had toured other high schools. The early college was a set of portable buildings. The cafeteria and the administration buildings were really the only true buildings at the high school. 

That was strange, especially because it was right next to a desert. 

It didn’t seem like much, but what I did enjoy was when we were about to enter the early college, the summer before they had a summer camp. In that summer camp we met some of the teachers, we had some pseudo classes where we covered geometry, math etc.

MarketWatch: How did you find the experience of the early college academically?

Gomez: The hardest not so much year, but semester, was the very first semester. The teachers wanted to prepare us for the expectations and the challenges, and the difficulties of what we were going to be seeing in those college classes.

After that it really became easy because we started building study groups and most of the classes that I took, I would take with people from my school. That network and that connection really made the process easy. 

We had the college load and we also had the high-school work load so finding time for myself was a little bit difficult. I don’t think the material itself was difficult, it was just keeping up with everything, and then trying to keep or maintain a social life while trying to maintain my academic success. 

MarketWatch: What was your social life like in high school?

Gomez: It was very different. I, of course, was connected via social media with the people that I went to middle school with. They were actively using their free time to go to concerts or raves or just playing sports and competing against other high schools — we didn’t really have those experiences, but we had a different variety. 

My social life revolved mostly around my academic life. The people that I would meet in my classes or at my school, we would just really hang out during school, but then after school everybody was mostly busy with the curriculum and the assignments. 

To some degree, I did maintain a social life/academic life balance, it just wasn’t as great as what my peers had from other high schools. 

MarketWatch: When did you start thinking about college and what did that look like?

Gomez: The goal that I had was just staying in El Paso and then going to the University of Texas-El Paso. Rather than experiencing something new after I finished my associate’s degree and after I finished high school, I thought I’m just going to attend UTEP and finish there. 

At that point, I didn’t just want to get my bachelor’s degree, I wanted to get my master’s degree before moving on to medical school.

MarketWatch: How did the credits transferring factor in?

Gomez: If we were going to stay in Texas most of our credits would transfer over. But if we decided to leave Texas, depending on the college or university that we went to, they might or might not accept all the credits. 

To some degree, I feel like that did dissuade me from leaving Texas. Not only was I going to get the benefit of transferring all of my credits to UTEP, I was going to stay in the environment that I knew and felt comfortable with 

MarketWatch: What did life after the early college high school look like for you?

Gomez: After high school, I attended UTEP for two years and completed my bachelor’s degree. While I was completing my studies, I decided to work within the university. After I completed my bachelor’s, I was offered a full-time position working at UTEP. 

I worked for a semester and then in the fall of 2017, I started my MBA at UTEP. Since I was a full-time staff member they have some employee educational benefits. [He graduated earlier this month].

MarketWatch: What made you decide to get the MBA?

Gomez: I did some research and I actually considered getting a master’s of science in biology, but that was very heavy in research and I didn’t enjoy research as much as I thought I was going to. 

[The MBA program] offers a concentration in health care administration. Since my plans were to go into medical school, I felt like that would work out really well. 

MarketWatch: Why did you want to get a master’s before medical school?

Gomez: When I was in high school, the counselor strongly advised us to not just finish with our academics after we got our associates or our bachelors, he always emphasized if you want to stay competitive within the professional world, you have to go either for a master’s or a Ph.D. 

I knew that I wanted to go into medicine, but I also wanted to have a Plan B, that’s why I decided to go for a master’s. 

MarketWatch: What are your plans after graduation?

Gomez: I’m going to take a few months to study for the MCAT [the admissions test for medical school]. During that gap year, I’ll also see if I can use my MBA to get a little bit of work experience in health-care administration. That way, whenever I do submit my application for medical school that will make me stand out. 

MarketWatch: Are you applying to medical schools outside of El Paso or Texas?

Gomez: Ideally, I would want to stay in El Paso for medical school. The tuition prices are lower in Texas than in most states. Of course I’ll be submitting applications to different medical schools, not just in Texas — some in California, some in Washington and some in New York. 

Depending on where I get accepted and what the costs are, I’ll be deciding from there.”

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On 5/21/2019 at 8:47 AM, BlsdMama said:


However, DS took fairly light courses his junior/senior year.  He went into college with a ton of (transferrable) credits.  These gen ed credits were his fluff - his easy As in the engineering program.  His scholarships spin on his University GPA (not his overall GPA) so when all of his "easy" courses were at the CC, they didn't count towards his University GPAHe went into Engineering only taking the harder freshman and sophomore courses with no padding of easier courses like Rhetoric.  Painful lesson.

We are having DD take fewer courses - but harder courses.  Her junior year she took Human Anatomy & Physiology so she could earn that hard A, but leave some softer courses for the U when she transfers.

 

I've heard this same thing, and sometimes the CC academic counselors are at fault.  Maybe they don't want to discourage their CC students with more difficult classes from the get go, but they will advise CC students to "get their gen ed classes out of the way" in CC.  By the time they transfer in to 4 year university, they have nothing left but all the hard engineering courses and their prerequisites like physics...and they need to finish them in 2 years.  Sometimes the prereq sequence is impossible to complete in 2 years anyway.

Meanwhile, the regular university students who enroll as freshman have the luxury of mixing in harder engineering classes with somewhat easier gen ed classes outside their major for a more balanced and pleasant 4 year experience.  

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18 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

Interesting that that one study said that minorities had LESS access to DE. Not true here. The ps will not pay for DE for the white kids, but the immigrants in our school get a free ride. Access to public monies for DE go first to the free lunch crowd, and then if any money is left over (it isn't), then the non free lunch crowd. 

DE was a good choice for my kids. My oldest was able to finish her undergrad in 4 years--rare for a music major at a rigorous school. Next one got IN to USNA because of her DE. Next one was able to handle ROTC and a job because of the extra wiggle room, as did her brother. His job got him a plum assignment at his first military station. Next one has a summer job again due to her DE, which got her very nice scholarships at her school. Perhaps our DE experience is colored by the fact that ours is a 4 year uni, not a CC. I was thinking about DE today--my oldest has been in college for 17 years!

I do think there is a difference, (at least in the student experience because I can’t speak to admissions or anything past 9th grade) ,between doing DE at your high school or at a community college that has a program for “early college”, and a 4 year uni where you are the only non-college age student in the class. 

I don’t think it will matter for my DS because all the schools say “SUNY” but his experience, even the negative ones, have been worth it for themselves. You know, for his current, high school education 😉 not for what might happen down the line...

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I do want to point out though, that the students needs to keep ALL work, including homework, tests, syllabus, etc. My kids have had to produce work for state school to private school, state school to same state school, state school to out of state school, master's work from state school to out of state doctoral school, and doctoral work from state school to out of state doctoral school! It saved a YEAR for dd's doctoral program to not have to retake a music bibliography class. She'd taken it from the woman who wrote the standard textbook, and didn't want to retake it (of course). She'd lost her syllabus in the Boulder flood, but fortunately, had all her essays, etc. on her computer. Her violist had a copy of the syllabus. Whew, as the course was only offered every other year. And for music majors, keep ALL programs! Dd had to produce them for her doctoral auditions clear back to undergrad days. Fortunately, I always kept at least 2 copies. They were not returned. Mines gave us 12 hours to produce all homework, tests, etc. for math and science. At least they returned them!

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