Pondering

[Scarlett]

If someone writes a journal full of lies (much of which could damage another person's reputation badly) with the purpose of catching someone snooping through the journals,  who has done more 'wrong'.  The journal writer of lies or the snooper.  The age of the journal writer is young legal adult.  

[MaeFlowers]

The snooper is wrong.

I would guess they wrote that because they suspected the snooper was snooping and wanted proof.

 

[Tanaqui]

The snooper, hands down.

[Ailaena]

6 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

The snooper, hands down.

 

That was great!  And I concur: the snooper.

[ktgrok]

Snooper. 

It was unwise, but not morally wrong to write falsehoods in a personal journal that no one else should ethically be looking at. If another person, also I'm assuming a legal adult, handles and snoops in someone's personal property without permission, that's morally wrong. AND if they then add to that by spreading rumors that they have not verified, that is also wrong. 

[Valley Girl]

You said the purpose was to catch someone snooping. So the goal, then, was NOT to set up some innocent person and destroy a reputation? Did the the writer in question have reason to believe someone would be putting his or her nose someplace it shouldn't be? If so, the writer might have simply wanted to give the offender an eyeful to teach him/her a lesson about boundaries and, perhaps, force the snooper to reveal that he/she did, in fact, snoop. If it was simply a deliberate set-up to catch the snooper, then the snooper had better learn to respect other people's privacy. If the writer had other, malicious intent for those lies, that would be wrong as well, but it would not excuse the snooper. In my opinion.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Valley Girl
typo

[Jean in Newcastle]

The snooper is wrong. . Unless there is specific concerns regarding a young adult's safety (they are suicidal or missing or seem to be on drugs or are dangerous to others) there is absolutely no reason for the snooper to snoop.  And even then, I would not do this as a first resort.

[Bambam]

The snooper. I can write whatever fiction I want. If someone reads it without my permission, that puts them in the wrong. 
 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Bambam

[Arcadia]

The snooper. That includes parents opening adult kids letters or looking at their pay slips.

It falls under the if you don’t want to hear something bad, don’t eavesdrop.

[SKL]

Was the snooper the person about whom the lies were written?  Or was it an innocent third party?

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Was the snooper the person about whom the lies were written?  Or was it an innocent third party?

An innocent third party.

[Tanaqui]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

An innocent third party.

 

Which is an asinine thing to do, but none of it would ever have been a problem if the snooper(s) had kept their prying eyes to themselves and if the gossips were a little more careful about the rumors they choose to spread. Don't go reading people's diaries!

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

An innocent third party.

Now that is wrong in my opinion.  It sounds kind of malicious.

[SKL]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

 

Which is an asinine thing to do, but none of it would ever have been a problem if the snooper(s) had kept their prying eyes to themselves and if the gossips were a little more careful about the rumors they choose to spread. Don't go reading people's diaries!

What if there ever was a legitimate reason for the diary to be read, like, God forbid, if the writer died or went missing or something?  Then the innocent third party would be victimized for no good reason.  People need to think before they act - even if the act is writing in their own diary.

[Scarlett]

And also the intended snooper isn't the snooper who actually found it.  And read it.  

Interesting we have almost 100% agreement on this.  We should celebrate.

[Scarlett]

Just now, SKL said:

What if there ever was a legitimate reason for the diary to be read, like, God forbid, if the writer died or went missing or something?  Then the innocent third party would be victimized for no good reason.  People need to think before they act - even if the act is writing in their own diary.

Yes, there would have been horrible personal consequences if these lies were allowed to stand.  

[prairiewindmomma]

I declare them both idiots---one for setting a trap, and the other for stumbling into it.  Neither seem to have good intent. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

What if there ever was a legitimate reason for the diary to be read, like, God forbid, if the writer died or went missing or something?  Then the innocent third party would be victimized for no good reason.  People need to think before they act - even if the act is writing in their own diary.

 

Unless what they wrote in their diary is "I think $FRIEND is going to kidnap and murder me" the snooper still ought to keep that information to themselves, even if they think they DO have a legitimate reason to read the diary. (If that is what was written then I take it back - in this specific situation the snooper and writer share equal responsibility for the fallout.)

Quote

People need to think before they act - even if the act is writing in their own diary.

 

Certainly, but we're not talking about whether or not writing lies in a diary is smart or clever - we're talking about whether or not they're at fault in this situation. They would never have written lies in their diary if the other party wasn't snooping around, so once again the blame circles back on the snoop. Don't read other people's diaries!

Quote

And also the intended snooper isn't the snooper who actually found it.  And read it.  

 

These are all awful people, every one of them.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Tanaqui

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

.

Certainly, but we're not talking about whether or not writing lies in a diary is smart or clever - we're talking about whether or not they're at fault in this situation. They would never have written lies in their diary if the other party wasn't snooping around, so once again the blame circles back on the snoop. Don't read other people's diaries!

Well that's like saying I wouldn't have hit my sister if my mom hadn't annoyed me.  You don't hit an innocent bystander to make a point or for any other reason.  Sounds like the writer didn't think about the fact that someone might legitimately want or need to read the diary.  Or that the "wrong person" could fall into the trap and hurt an innocent party.  Either the writer was a fool not to think that through, or s/he was rotten not to care about the outcome.

There are plenty of better ways to catch a diary reader than to drag an innocent bystander into the mess.

Edited May 20, 2019 by SKL

[J-rap]

I wouldn't even ask that question.  

If the journal writer was someone I cared about, I would try and figure out why they felt they needed to lie in their journal...get to the bottom of their discontent.  Maybe they need help.

[Tanaqui]

This isn't a case of mom "annoying" her child. This is a case of somebody systematically and repeatedly invading another person's privacy, goading them into taking extreme action. Was it ill-conceived? Certainly! Are they the guilty party? Nah.

[TechWife]

57 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The snooper is wrong. . Unless there is specific concerns regarding a young adult's safety (they are suicidal or missing or seem to be on drugs or are dangerous to others) there is absolutely no reason for the snooper to snoop.  And even then, I would not do this as a first resort.

 

This.

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

This isn't a case of mom "annoying" her child. This is a case of somebody systematically and repeatedly invading another person's privacy, goading them into taking extreme action. Was it ill-conceived? Certainly! Are they the guilty party? Nah.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Whatever the reason, you take up a fight with the person you have a beef with, you don't drag innocent people into it, especially to the extent of telling malicious lies about said people.  Yes the writer is guilty if he did that.  Maybe it's not a crime, but it deserves considerable censure IMO.

[SKL]

OK so what if the writer, wanting to catch his roommate, said, "I slept with [roommate's girlfriend] bla bla bla."  Then roommate found it and acted on it in ways that hurt the girlfriend.  Not the writer's fault?

[TechWife]

An adult snooping on another adult is wrong and destructive to the relationship between the two. If there are concerns re: mental health or drug use, then direct, frank conversations are in order,  not snooping to the extent that one reads a journal. I am at a loss as to what an adult would hope to gain by this snooping behavior with another adult, unless it was to prove beyond a doubt that he/she isn’t a trustworthy person. 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

OK so what if the writer, wanting to catch his roommate, said, "I slept with [roommate's girlfriend] bla bla bla."  Then roommate found it and acted on it in ways that hurt the girlfriend.  Not the writer's fault?

It would have been unwise, but not immoral or malicious, in my opinion. That's assuming it didn't occur to them that the snooper might do someihtn with the false information. I'm assuming the writer intended the snooper to come to them directly with the ill gotten info, at which point they would clarify, with no harm to the third party. Unwise, given that other scenarios could happen, but not unethical purposely. If they KNEW and understood that damage might be done to the third party, rather than just being unthinking, I'd consider that immoral. 

[SKL]

6 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

It would have been unwise, but not immoral or malicious, in my opinion. That's assuming it didn't occur to them that the snooper might do someihtn with the false information. I'm assuming the writer intended the snooper to come to them directly with the ill gotten info, at which point they would clarify, with no harm to the third party. Unwise, given that other scenarios could happen, but not unethical purposely. If they KNEW and understood that damage might be done to the third party, rather than just being unthinking, I'd consider that immoral. 

For a young adult to make another person think for even one minute that an innocent person did something horrible is malicious IMO.  Unless this is an extremely clueless person, he doesn't get off with "well I didn't think ...."  And even if he truly didn't have the ability to think of that, he needs to be "educated" to think farther past his nose next time.

Edited May 20, 2019 by SKL

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Unless what they wrote in their diary is "I think $FRIEND is going to kidnap and murder me" the snooper still ought to keep that information to themselves, even if they think they DO have a legitimate reason to read the diary. (If that is what was written then I take it back - in this specific situation the snooper and writer share equal responsibility for the fallout.)

 

Certainly, but we're not talking about whether or not writing lies in a diary is smart or clever - we're talking about whether or not they're at fault in this situation. They would never have written lies in their diary if the other party wasn't snooping around, so once again the blame circles back on the snoop. Don't read other people's diaries!

 

These are all awful people, every one of them.

Maybe.  I think the writer is just immature and didn't think through what would happen if these lies WERE found.  And the writer was super careless with the journal!  

[Joker]

The snooper is the only one at fault.

I seriously dislike parents snooping. My mom did to me all the time but I did nothing to deserve it. I love her but to this day I don't trust her. And because of that neither do her grandchildren. She sometimes feeds our cat while we're gone and I always remind dd and ds that she is a snooper and to lock up anything they don't want her to see because I'm not sure if she would snoop on them too or not. It's unfortunate but fully her fault.

What the young adult did was foolish but maybe they were really fed up and thought that was the only way to get the point across that what the snooper was doing was wrong. 

[TechWife]

24 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, there would have been horrible personal consequences if these lies were allowed to stand.  

Sincere question - a bit philosophical  - if no one was supposed to read the material in question, then was the person lying? There was not supposed to be a reader. Does  someone have to hear/read a lie? Other than that, wouldn’t they just be a fictional story? I despise lying - my life has been affected by a compulsive liar in my extended family. Therefore, I don’t give a lot of grace where lying is concerned. I’m not asking this question lightly. You said the lies would have brought consequences if allowed to stand - who would have spread the lies to cause the consequences if not the snooper? If the snooper, then that’s the person with the problem, not the one who laid the trap. There must also other concerning behavior if the person who did the writing had reasonable cause to lay a trap. Why did the snooper snoop? I can’t think of one good reason why snooping on another adult would be considered normal behavior. By no means is this a healthy relationship in any case. 

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Sincere question - a bit philosophical  - if no one was supposed to read the material in question, then was the person lying? There was not supposed to be a reader. Does  someone have to hear/read a lie? Other than that, wouldn’t they just be a fictional story? I despise lying - my life has been affected by a compulsive liar in my extended family. Therefore, I don’t give a lot of grace where lying is concerned. I’m not asking this question lightly. You said the lies would have brought consequences if allowed to stand - who would have spread the lies to cause the consequences if not the snooper? If the snooper, then that’s the person with the problem, not the one who laid the trap. There must also other concerning behavior if the person who did the writing had reasonable cause to lay a trap. Why did the snooper snoop? I can’t think of one good reason why snooping on another adult would be considered normal behavior. By no means is this a healthy relationship in any case. 

I agree mostly.  I think the writer thought the lies would be found by snooper, snooper would confront writer, writer would say, 'Ha! Caught ya snooping!' and that would be the end of it.  Unfortunately, the journals were found by ANOTHER snooper and the information was passed on to others who then confronted both the writer and the innocent third party (separately) to try to get to the bottom of it.  Think of the lie something like the writer claims to be having an affair with a siblings spouse.  That serious.  

[historically accurate]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

If someone writes a journal full of lies (much of which could damage another person's reputation badly) with the purpose of catching someone snooping through the journals,  who has done more 'wrong'.  The journal writer of lies or the snooper.  The age of the journal writer is young legal adult.  

Haven't read replies yet, but snooper is the one who is wrong. Unless snooper is worried about safety of writer or safety of others at the hand of writer, no one should be reading diaries (and I say that as someone who read a kid's diary to verify mental health struggles). 

 

[SKL]

I am not saying the snooper was not wrong.  There can be 2 people doing wrong in the same scenario.

I just really strongly believe that people should always understand that whatever they write "could" end up public, and the writer should act accordingly.  Yes, I know that waters down the benefits of self-expression in one's own private journal.  Make up a code or something.  Be smart about it.  I could understand an 11yo writing something without thinking, but an adult should know better.

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Sincere question - a bit philosophical  - if no one was supposed to read the material in question, then was the person lying? There was not supposed to be a reader. Does  someone have to hear/read a lie? Other than that, wouldn’t they just be a fictional story? I despise lying - my life has been affected by a compulsive liar in my extended family. Therefore, I don’t give a lot of grace where lying is concerned. I’m not asking this question lightly. You said the lies would have brought consequences if allowed to stand - who would have spread the lies to cause the consequences if not the snooper? If the snooper, then that’s the person with the problem, not the one who laid the trap. There must also other concerning behavior if the person who did the writing had reasonable cause to lay a trap. Why did the snooper snoop? I can’t think of one good reason why snooping on another adult would be considered normal behavior. By no means is this a healthy relationship in any case. 

THIS is the bottom line.  It has been my outtake of the entire mess.  Young adult writer needs to not be living with and depending upon the targeted snooper or the actual snooper.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is this based on some article or something?  It sounds like people are referring to an actual incident instead of just a hypothetical?  

[maize]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I agree mostly.  I think the writer thought the lies would be found by snooper, snooper would confront writer, writer would say, 'Ha! Caught ya snooping!' and that would be the end of it.  Unfortunately, the journals were found by ANOTHER snooper and the information was passed on to others who then confronted both the writer and the innocent third party (separately) to try to get to the bottom of it.  Think of the lie something like the writer claims to be having an affair with a siblings spouse.  That serious.  

Lots of unhealthiness here.

Young adult was very foolish to put another person's reputation at risk. Since YA did in fact intend for the diary to be found that was intentional lying. Doesn't sound like they were trying to hurt someone but they need to learn that once they put something in writing they are no longer in control of what happens to it.

The lack of trust between YA and the person they were trying to catch snooping may be something to address in family therapy. Has the YA done something in the past that would lead to the other person not trusting them and feeling they need to snoop? Sometimes a child's life is saved by a snooping parent. On the other hand, does the expected snooper have a history of violating reasonable and healthy interpersonal boundaries and sticking there nose in where it is neither needed not helpful? That can be a form of abuse.

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Is this based on some article or something?  It sounds like people are referring to an actual incident instead of just a hypothetical?  

This is an actual incident that I have knowledge of.  

[Laura Corin]

16 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

THIS is the bottom line.  It has been my outtake of the entire mess.  Young adult writer needs to not be living with and depending upon the targeted snooper or the actual snooper.

Secret lying and laying traps is immature behaviour. But the snoopers are not fulfilling their role as adults in a communal relationship with other adults.

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

OK so what if the writer, wanting to catch his roommate, said, "I slept with [roommate's girlfriend] bla bla bla."  Then roommate found it and acted on it in ways that hurt the girlfriend.  Not the writer's fault?

 

Nope, the fault lies entirely with the roommate. 

One of the most basic lessons I taught my children is that, no matter who says what to or about you, you are still responsible for your own actions.

[Tanaqui]

25 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Is this based on some article or something?  It sounds like people are referring to an actual incident instead of just a hypothetical?  

 

Scarlett may have phrased this as a hypothetical, but it did seem clear to me from the start that it wasn't and we didn't have every detail yet.

Quote

Maybe.  I think the writer is just immature and didn't think through what would happen if these lies WERE found.  And the writer was super careless with the journal!  

 

I certainly agree that the writer was immature and didn't think this one through.

Quote

I just really strongly believe that people should always understand that whatever they write "could" end up public, and the writer should act accordingly. 

 

Agreed on that front! I just don't think they have any culpability for what the snooper does with their illicit snooping (except in the very narrow scenario I outlined above), which means the snooper is at fault both for snooping - and being so obvious that people would try to catch them in their actions! - and then for spreading rumors.

Quote

OK so what if the writer, wanting to catch his roommate, said, "I slept with [roommate's girlfriend] bla bla bla."  Then roommate found it and acted on it in ways that hurt the girlfriend.  Not the writer's fault?

 

If this person is prying into other people's personal journals without their permission, their g/f is probably better off out of that relationship. If they do anything other than simply break up with g/f, then they are at fault for whatever bad things they did.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Scarlett may have phrased this as a hypothetical, but it did seem clear to me from the start that it wasn't and we didn't have every detail yet.

 

I certainly agree that the writer was immature and didn't think this one through.

 

Agreed on that front! I just don't think they have any culpability for what the snooper does with their illicit snooping (except in the very narrow scenario I outlined above), which means the snooper is at fault both for snooping - and being so obvious that people would try to catch them in their actions! - and then for spreading rumors.

 

If this person is prying into other people's personal journals without their permission, their g/f is probably better off out of that relationship. If they do anything other than simply break up with g/f, then they are at fault for whatever bad things they did.

Well, I might get in trouble for this opinion, but I think that the snooper is very immature as well and didn't think this through.  And since the young adult anticipated the snooping, it shows a pattern of unhealthy dynamics in the relationship.  If the snooper is older than the young adult, then the onus in on the older person to show more maturity. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Jean in Newcastle
grammar matters

[Scarlett]

12 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Well, I might get in trouble for this opinion, but I think that the snooper is very immature as well and didn't think this through.  And since the young adult anticipated the snooping, it shows a pattern of unhealthy dynamics in the relationship.  If the snooper is older than the young adult, then the onus in on the older person to show more maturity. 

For sure.  It is something I have noticed for a long time.  

[Tanaqui]

19 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Well, I might get in trouble for this opinion, but I think that the snooper is very immature as well and didn't think this through.  And since the young adult anticipated the snooping, it shows a pattern of unhealthy dynamics in the relationship.  If the snooper is older than the young adult, then the onus in on the older person to show more maturity. 

 

Cycling back to "they're all awful people, seriously"

[regentrude]

The snooper.

A person can write whatever they want. A journal is private.

Edited May 20, 2019 by regentrude

[Valley Girl]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I agree mostly.  I think the writer thought the lies would be found by snooper, snooper would confront writer, writer would say, 'Ha! Caught ya snooping!' and that would be the end of it.  Unfortunately, the journals were found by ANOTHER snooper and the information was passed on to others who then confronted both the writer and the innocent third party (separately) to try to get to the bottom of it.  Think of the lie something like the writer claims to be having an affair with a siblings spouse.  That serious.  

There is seriously way too much snooping and invading of privacy among that group of people! I'd want to steer clear of the whole passel of them. Sheesh.

[Scarlett]

23 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

There is seriously way too much snooping and invading of privacy among that group of people! I'd want to steer clear of the whole passel of them. Sheesh.

Well, they are human people, but I don't think any of them are evil people.  Just poor boundaries and then some immaturity thrown in.  

[Valley Girl]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well, they are human people, but I don't think any of them are evil people.  Just poor boundaries and then some immaturity thrown in.  

 

You're probably right.

Though I think the innocent party would be totally within his or her rights to rip both the journal writer and both snoopers a new one (to put it not-so-delicately).

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

 

You're probably right.

Though I think the innocent party would be totally within his or her rights to rip both the journal writer and both snoopers a new one (to put it not-so-delicately).

The innocent party got it straight with the writer that the journal of lies was a bad idea.  Writer agrees and regrets.  However, innocent party feels the greater wrong was to the snoopers.

[Jean in Newcastle]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

The innocent party got it straight with the writer that the journal of lies was a bad idea.  Writer agrees and regrets.  However, innocent party feels the greater wrong was to the snoopers.

And I agree.   I personally don't care if the journal was left out.   There is a virtue called self control that should have been exercised by the snooper.  (You might notice that I feel rather strongly about this.)

[MaBelle]

Snooper.  

I had a friend in high school that kept a diary specifically for her mom to read.  She hid it in not hard to find places.  A lot of the entries said stuff like "spending the night at MaBelle's house" .  Not.