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YaelAldrich

Teen getting in serious trouble - WWYD?

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When my son was having significant rebellion issues I contacted a program in my own area like this one on East coast:  https://www.jointservicessupport.org/ngycp/maryland/freestate-challenge-academy

Although my son got turned around with out needing such a program (at least so far), I got a good bit of help just in talking with an advisor at OYCP, and also with a principal at a military academy in our area.  

I continue to be glad that ngycp exists.

 It could be an option to get some military like discipline and training without having to actually join the military.  And is a controlled program that is suited to dealing with risky youth behavior— without needing to leave US.   Since he isn’t technically dropped out right now it may not apply.  But maybe it would.  The one in Oregon has summer sessions. Maybe the ones on East Coast do too.

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19 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

@YaelAldrich I'm sorry you are going through this. FWIW, what looks like internet addiction can sometimes simply be a way of avoiding all the things that are difficult. That's what I've seen in a young person close to me. He can function without it for a period of time, but that wish to escape becomes stronger and stronger. When the opportunity presents again, nothing else matters.

In our experience, tackling the reasons for needing the escape - which a bright child may be able to hide quite well from family and doctors - allows the internet to become a useful tool for self-regulation, rather than a seeming obsession.

Best wishes.

Yes - my son had a gaming addiction, or what looked like one. But it was the symptom, not the problem. Trying to control the gaming didn't work, and pushed him away from us. Letting him stop school and getting him a volunteer job with animals pretty much cured it. He was getting immediate feedback/gratification/realization he was important - he'd see a hungry animal, then feed it and it was happy. His actions had VALUE, he had purpose. With that, he didn't need the false purpose he got from gaming. 

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Yael, I have not been in your position, so I don't have advice to offer, just concern.

However, I did notice that in your most recent post, you mention that your son has switched his political beliefs and perhaps has adopted some more radical views. You may be aware of this, but there have been news articles about extremists deliberately recruiting teens over the internet. I am not going to post a specific link, but you can google it.

I have no interest in espousing any political views. I am just suggesting that it is an aspect for you to consider, since internet addiction has also been mentioned. I think it's definitely something to point out to anyone you go to for help.

A good point..just as a bad group of friends in real life can influence a kid, so can a group online. 

6 hours ago, laundrycrisis said:

I have a relative who went through something like this.  She is very bright,  and I think she just couldn't stand being a kid anymore.  She ended up dropping out of high school and working, I am guessing multiple jobs since a teen can't work full time.  She did get her GED once she was old enough.  Last I heard, she was enrolled in a trade school and doing well.  I believe the behavioral problems stopped once they stopped trying to make her continue living as a kid and attend high school.  

Truth....so many bright/gifted kids drop out. I almost did. I went to college a year early instead, best decision ever. 

5 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

 

I was reading about this man who was recruited as a white supremacist and now 15 years later, is teaching people how to spot recruitment and ways to combat it.  He said that 2 factors are needed (and these factors hold true whether it is recruiting for white supremacists, islamic terrorists, or anarchists, doesn;'t matter who)  isolation (loneliness) and lack of purpose.

I know that made a huge difference in my son's life.  Once he had a purpose, his depression became so much better and with the purpose, he made lots of friends too. 

Agreed. Boys that age need PURPOSE. They need to know their actions and their very selves have value. Some find that in gangs, in cults, in political extremist groups. Others in volunteer work, schoolwork, jobs, hobbies, etc. Again, I highly advise getting him volunteer work. 

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Also, did the behavior change coincide with the cancer diagnoses and loss of life in your family? Could this be his way of handling/not handling grief? Or dealing with mortality, etc?

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19 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes - my son had a gaming addiction, or what looked like one. But it was the symptom, not the problem. Trying to control the gaming didn't work, and pushed him away from us. Letting him stop school and getting him a volunteer job with animals pretty much cured it. He was getting immediate feedback/gratification/realization he was important - he'd see a hungry animal, then feed it and it was happy. His actions had VALUE, he had purpose. With that, he didn't need the false purpose he got from gaming. 

A good point..just as a bad group of friends in real life can influence a kid, so can a group online. 

Truth....so many bright/gifted kids drop out. I almost did. I went to college a year early instead, best decision ever. 

Agreed. Boys that age need PURPOSE. They need to know their actions and their very selves have value. Some find that in gangs, in cults, in political extremist groups. Others in volunteer work, schoolwork, jobs, hobbies, etc. Again, I highly advise getting him volunteer work. 

I agree with something of value and purpose.  My kid wasn’t rebellious, but he did start to show signs of discontent and sullenness. When he was 16 I drove him to vo etc and told him to pick something.  He loved it, and at the same time he also got a job which he still has three years later as he finishing up his first year of cc. 

 

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47 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, did the behavior change coincide with the cancer diagnoses and loss of life in your family? Could this be his way of handling/not handling grief? Or dealing with mortality, etc?

This is what I was thinking about posting.  Yael said that he was the only one who couldn't attend a family member's funeral.  I wonder if that bothers him more than he has expressed.

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Hugs no experience as a parent but when I was 3 my Oldest Sister was 17 and going through similiar things.  It was hard my parents tried alot eventually they kind of let her go to keep the rest us of safe.  She did wind up in jail but she also graduated college with honors.  It was years of 1 step forward 2 steps back to get the right diagnose and then the right treatment.  It was traumatic for all.  You seem to have a good plan and I will be praying for you.

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9 hours ago, mathnerd said:

I was about to suggest volunteering, but, it is not a good idea at this stage.

 

What about the grandparents with cancer who perhaps could use help?    Perhaps need real help and perhaps for the boy that would be more important than a paid wilderness experience?

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13 hours ago, Pen said:

What about the grandparents with cancer who perhaps could use help?    Perhaps need real help and perhaps for the boy that would be more important than a paid wilderness experience?

No. Once someone expresses violent thoughts towards others, then it is best not to put them in regular contact with young kids or older people who might not be good at self defense. The best option is to get to the bottom of this issue, which I think is more than rebellion or mental health related and probably due to influence of others. 

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7 hours ago, Pen said:

What about the grandparents with cancer who perhaps could use help?    Perhaps need real help and perhaps for the boy that would be more important than a paid wilderness experience?

 

My late healthy grandparents could not handle my rebellious male cousin who is prone to cigarette and alcohol overconsumption (he didn’t seek but would happily partake when surrounded by chain smokers and alcoholics). Grandparents with cancer do not need that added high level stress and there might be religious conflict. 

For my most rebellious cousin, earning minimum wage with no chance of promotion made him more matured but that took him to early 30s to be fully responsible adult. He was rebellious from elementary school and got worse in 8th grade. He went to community college after a few years of minimum wage, then work a few more years before going for a part time bachelors degree. My less rebellious cousins and nephews matured in community college, lots of late bloomers among my relatives. 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

Grandparents with cancer do not need that added high level stress and there might be religious conflict. 

 

You and @mathnerd are probably right. 

I don’t know much of anything about them, the type of people they are or their relationship with the teen. 

In my own life, I knew a grandfather who was one of the only people who could handle one of his teen to young adult grandsons who was having behavior problems and brushes with the law for awhile — even when the grandfather had congestive heart disease and even though the teen was much bigger and stronger— because the grandfather had been a wild youth himself.   Though the grandfather was that way at a time when being a rough kid from the wrong side of the tracks, smoking, drinking, street fighting and so on weren’t regarded in the same way as they are now. 

There might perhaps be less religious conflict with the grandparents than with the parents, given that Yael indicated that she converted to Orthodox Judaism.  Or, if grandparents are fundamentalist Christian maybe there would be even more religious conflict. 

 

 

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To be clear, am I right in that this young man has never actually done anything violent at all? Not hurting people or pets, not throwing objects at people, not punching walls repeatedly, not shoving past people, etc? He just mouths off, and has made vague threats in the vein of "I hate that Mr. so and so...I'm going to mess him up!" to other people/social media but not directly to anyone? So not saying TO a teacher "I'm going to kill you!" but more posturing/complaining to others, like  "man, I'd like to take that lady out!"?  If it's just tough talk, and sullen refusal and not violent behavior, ever, I'm thinking it is him trying to look tough to his peers, trying to figure out a way to fit in, trying to be "grown". Plus dealing with mortality issues, stress, etc of multiple family tragedies. 

Sometimes trash talk really is just trash talk. I think the underlying issue needs to be dealt with - why does he think this is the way to get attention or appear grown, but would not jump to label him a sociopath because he talks big in front of his friends. Young boys that age can be totally clueless, worse so in a group. 

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27 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

To be clear, am I right in that this young man has never actually done anything violent at all?

 

 

27 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Not hurting people or pets, not throwing objects at people, not punching walls repeatedly, not shoving past people, etc? He just mouths off, and has made vague threats in the vein of "I hate that Mr. so and so...I'm going to mess him up!" to other people/social media but not directly to anyone? So not saying TO a teacher "I'm going to kill you!" but more posturing/complaining to others, like  "man, I'd like to take that lady out!"?

 

 

27 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 If it's just tough talk, and sullen refusal and not violent behavior, ever, I'm thinking it is him trying to look tough to his peers, trying to figure out a way to fit in, trying to be "grown". Plus dealing with mortality issues, stress, etc of multiple family tragedies. 

Sometimes trash talk really is just trash talk. I think the underlying issue needs to be dealt with - why does he think this is the way to get attention or appear grown, but would not jump to label him a sociopath because he talks big in front of his friends. Young boys that age can be totally clueless, worse so in a group. 

 

That’s my current understanding.  

And my understanding is that several people who saw him at a top psychiatric hospital have not considered him to be mentally ill or danger to self or others.  (But that it was awhile back and could use a current evaluation before he turns 18 if possible.) 

And that understanding underlies why I probably felt more comfortable suggesting that a visit to military recruiter, or meaningful  volunteering, could be okay, potentially helpful directions. 

I think it would probably be extremely helpful if @YaelAldrich would clarify this.   Because I think various of us are responding based on different understandings of this very basic issue.  

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To clarify, he has never hurt anyone ever (before this he was a real softy in word and deed).  However he has found out from the internet and friends of friends how much it costs to hurt/kill teacher in question (FYI 10-15K not locally and evidently local thugs only 1800-2k 😨 ).  His last psych meeting was two weeks ago (that was the McLean one) and we have a call into another highly regarded psychologist for another trial of help.  It's not for lack of trying on our part but no one so far has said anything other than he needs to mature, he needs to connect consequences for short and long term actions. He's had the talk with a military recruiter (and my father who was also an Army recruiter).  He has done a fair amount of volunteer work in the last year - Red Cross, soup kitchens, etc.  He has a very good relationship with my parents (the ones with cancer - they are self sufficient for now, but who knows in 3-6 months) and I would send him there but he's already agreed to July in Japan working (and I mean working - physical labor (gardening, help in a kosher slaughter house) in addition to helping with office work, taking care of kids (that love him and he loves them) to deliveries across the city of Tokyo/Kyoto.  Then he will visit his other grandparents (pretty OK relationship) and then to my parents until we come back to the US.  My main worry is that he will try to find pot in Japan or worse try to bring some.  Japan doesn't look favorably on any drugs.  He knows this from our work with several Jewish youth who brought in illegal drugs who were incarcerated for years (one almost a decade).  

My husband and I went to our therapist and are feeling much more on the same page about what needs to happen.  Our son has also consented to putting his phones downstairs at the end of the evenings (although we've done this before and it doesn't last awfully long). He also consented to trying out the Internet addiction center at Boston's Children's Hospital and the Kids-Think centered psychologist we've contacted.  More prayers welcome

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I just want to point out that many of the programs mentioned may not end at 18, but he can legally walk out the door on his 18th birthday.  I worked at one right out of college, and while you could be in the program at 21, a child could legally walk away on their 18th birthday.

It does sound like he needs to mature.  It also sounds to me like he is trying on different personas.  I gather you are very religious and on the liberal end of the political spectrum; he's trying out the exact opposite and seeing what he feels he is as an individual.  That's not atypical for his age.  If there is no psych issue and it sounds like he is not actually violent, the military may be a perfect culture for him to grow and mature in.  

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Ok, I’m not sure how to phrase this, so I will just come out and say it, and hope I’m not being too blunt.

I find it terrifying that your son actively researched how much it would cost him to have his teacher killed or maimed. There is nothing normal or typical about that. That is SCARY.

And the idea that you are sending your son — who has not only made violent threats but who has also had illegal weapons and has researched how to have someone hurt or killed — to live with another family and babysit their children, seems extremely reckless to me. Does the family in Japan know all of these details? Because if you told me these things about your son, I will be honest with you, I wouldn’t want him in my house or anywhere near my children. If they only know him from before his behavior changed so dramatically, they may have no idea what they have agreed to.

Finally, your son has spent much of his life in a very regimented and extremely educationally challenging environment. Are you sure that putting him into another highly controlled situation where he will be working extremely hard is the solution? Are you sure that he won’t  feel like you are trying to get rid of him by sending him so far away? And if he gets into trouble in Japan, can you get there in a hurry to help him?

I know you are doing everything you can, and it sounds like he is trying to be more cooperative, so I’m not sure I understand how it will help to send him so far away when he is currently so troubled. If your whole family was going, it would make a lot more sense to me.

Maybe I have missed something in your posts that clarifies these things, and if I have, I apologize. 

Edited to add: Also, aren’t you concerned that working in a slaughterhouse might be very traumatizing and potentially psychologically damaging for your son? 

Edited by Catwoman
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16 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

To clarify, he has never hurt anyone ever (before this he was a real softy in word and deed).

 

Thanks for the update.  Prayers and hugs.  Sounds like some good progress is happening.

especially it sounds like your Ds is being more cooperative than I thought he would be

 

Could you tell him someone with a son almost his same age who has dealt with some different as to specifics, but perhaps similar at core “stuff” recommended these you tubes for him to see:

 

 

And 

 

 

And also that same book Brainstorm I linked above could be something even better for him to read than for you to read.  I think it may originally have been intended as a book for adolescents young adults themselves 

Finding some legal things that would help produce good feelings in place of pot might be a  help

My son has found listening to ASMR (on  you tube on cellphone, yes, alas) soothing.   He often falls asleep to ASMR and I’ve been okay with that as preferable to some other alternatives 

He also has found some dietary supplements helpful.  This would I’m sure differ person to person.  But, for example, especially B vitamins, including B12, and GABA (the neurotransmitter) as a supplement.  GABA is apparently involved in some way with microbiome as well as brain.

My son, who runs track, I think probably gets runners’ high which is more healthy (probably) than pot or at least isn’t illegal    Plus he has a breathing and sound thing he does that gives a good mood feeling       It was annoying as the parent listener... and then I tried imitating it and the sound and was surprised at how mood elevating it was     He should probably do it for You Tube to show how.   He as well spends a lot of time in nature which helps  I don’t know how that can be done in Boston   

btw if microbiome is disturbed (like if he had antibiotics and microbiome wasn’t restored) that can disturb neurotransmitters...

lactobacillus rhamanosus or some name like that , for example, was found to play a role in iirc serotonin 

 

I hope in medical exam Vitamin D level and other things like that will be checked 

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56 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

until we come back to the US. 

 

Where will you be?

 

56 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

He also consented to trying out the Internet addiction center at Boston's Children's Hospital and the

I’d be interested in what is learned from this.

56 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

Kids-Think centered psychologist we've contacted. 

 

I’m glad to hear that — hope it would involve how whole family communicates, not just him.  And I’d like to know more about what’s learned in that too. 

(When I quote you I’m trying not to quote anything all that sensitive seeming, but let me know if I should delete quotes)

 

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2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I find it terrifying that your son actively researched how much it would cost him to have his teacher killed or maimed. There is nothing normal or typical about that. That is SCARY.

And the idea that you are sending your son — who has not only made violent threats but who has also had illegal weapons and has researched how to have someone hurt or killed — ?

Finally, your son has spent much of his life in a very regimented and extremely educationally challenging environment. Are you sure that putting him into another highly controlled situation where he will be working extremely hard is the solution? Are you sure that he won’t  feel like you are trying to get rid of him by sending him so far away? And if he gets into trouble in Japan, can you get there in a hurry to help him?

Also, aren’t you concerned that working in a slaughterhouse might be very traumatizing and potentially psychologically damaging for your son? 

Researching the cost freaks me out a bit too, unless it was in the context of proving to his friends it was too expensive or something? But yeah, make sure the doctors/therapists all know that part! Or do they already know, and what do they think? What does your son say about that? 

regarding the illegal weapons, I'm assuming knives with an auto open on them, which are often illegal. If that's it, it wouldn't frighten me so much....dumb, but many normal law abiding people end up with illegal knives often on accident as they are easier to use, etc. No where near as concerning as the researching hit men thing. 

I agree with others that the regimented hard work could be good or bad....is this work he will enjoy, get satisfaction from, feel fulfilled by? Or just work for work's sake - which may be way to similar to school for the sake of school, and have the opposite effect. You don't want him having a reason to be resentful. When I said volunteer work I meant something he'd really enjoy, feel fulfilled by, etc. So less stocking cans on soup kitchen shelves, more interactive, like walking dogs at a no kill shelter, feeding animals and cleaning up after them at a sanctuary, tutoring kids, etc. Something where he makes a connection with something outside himself, not just rote work. Unless he likes that kind of thing, some do, but I bet he doesn't. Putting a can on a shelf and knowing someone will someday get fed isn't the same brain light up as handing someone a plate of food and seeing their hunger pain go away. 

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Researching the cost puts it beyond just hyperbolic speech made in anger.  It is action - even if it is action that has not been taken to it's conclusion. 

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A slaughterhouse?  Will he see the animals that are killed? If he was a softy before, then he could still have that core of being a softy and seeing animals that he knows will be killed could be very damaging to him.  

Will he actually be part of seeing them die?  Because conversely, if he’s someone who is hardening, then having him see or take part in killing animals is the exact opposite of what he should be doing.  Since he’s making literal death threats against humans, you don’t want him getting used to seeing death or taking part in killing animals.  It will make it easier to carry out death threats against humans.

And if he’s addicted to drugs, he won’t be able to just stop because he’s in Japan.  And if they are strict on drugs, what happens if he ends up in a Japanese prison for years?  Does he speak the language?  Or will he be a complete outsider and target for violence in the prison for years on end?

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2 hours ago, Garga said:

A slaughterhouse?  Will he see the animals that are killed? If he was a softy before, then he could still have that core of being a softy and seeing animals that he knows will be killed could be very damaging to him.  

Will he actually be part of seeing them die?  Because conversely, if he’s someone who is hardening, then having him see or take part in killing animals is the exact opposite of what he should be doing.  Since he’s making literal death threats against humans, you don’t want him getting used to seeing death or taking part in killing animals.  It will make it easier to carry out death threats against humans.

And if he’s addicted to drugs, he won’t be able to just stop because he’s in Japan.  And if they are strict on drugs, what happens if he ends up in a Japanese prison for years?  Does he speak the language?  Or will he be a complete outsider and target for violence in the prison for years on end?

 

I think they lived in Japan for some years. I have assumed He’s probably language and culture familiar.  

But a prison term would not be good, especially long time and overseas. 

I too am concerned about effects of slaughterhouse work. Perhaps learning to kill animals himself,  not just seeing it.  (Or more participation than observation , even if he’s not the knife wielded.)

Concerned about Distance. Even if that is where his mom and immediate family will be for the summer,  he might be better off with some program in USA or with the army grandfather. 

 

 

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A Temple Grandin site article from NZ (?) research about Muslim and Jewish / halal and kosher slaughtering practices with regard to animal pain from the slaughter itself.  Restraint methods used  like upside down hanging are sometimes also a problem:

 

https://www.grandin.com/ritual/slaughter.without.stunning.causes.pain.html

 

my half sister spent a teen summer at a farm with an animal slaughterhouse on-site and became vegetarian — but it could have worse effects on a boy dealing with anger management

 

(for some reason this makes me think of the mystery book Gone Missing by Linda Castillo which depicts an Amish slaughterhouse.  )

eta: the life of a CAFO animal is no doubt far worse, but a slaughterhouse job situation seems like a poor choice in the described circumstances. 

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There are also some you tube films of such slaughter, perhaps worth parent viewing and perhaps the 17yo Ds before committing to the summer work.  

ETA- if the son says he’d love to be doing that, I’m not sure that isn’t even all the more reason for him not to. 

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4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Researching the cost freaks me out a bit too, unless it was in the context of proving to his friends it was too expensive or something? But yeah, make sure the doctors/therapists all know that part! Or do they already know, and what do they think? What does your son say about that? 

regarding the illegal weapons, I'm assuming knives with an auto open on them, which are often illegal. If that's it, it wouldn't frighten me so much....dumb, but many normal law abiding people end up with illegal knives often on accident as they are easier to use, etc. No where near as concerning as the researching hit men thing. 

I agree with others that the regimented hard work could be good or bad....is this work he will enjoy, get satisfaction from, feel fulfilled by? Or just work for work's sake - which may be way to similar to school for the sake of school, and have the opposite effect. You don't want him having a reason to be resentful. When I said volunteer work I meant something he'd really enjoy, feel fulfilled by, etc. So less stocking cans on soup kitchen shelves, more interactive, like walking dogs at a no kill shelter, feeding animals and cleaning up after them at a sanctuary, tutoring kids, etc. Something where he makes a connection with something outside himself, not just rote work. Unless he likes that kind of thing, some do, but I bet he doesn't. Putting a can on a shelf and knowing someone will someday get fed isn't the same brain light up as handing someone a plate of food and seeing their hunger pain go away. 

 

I was worried about the knives because it wasn’t just one illegal knife, and this young man is very intelligent so I assumed he knew they were illegal. And combined with the other very disturbing details Yael included in her posts... I would be very concerned about what he may have planned to do with those illegal knives.

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3 hours ago, Garga said:

A slaughterhouse?  Will he see the animals that are killed? If he was a softy before, then he could still have that core of being a softy and seeing animals that he knows will be killed could be very damaging to him.  

Will he actually be part of seeing them die?  Because conversely, if he’s someone who is hardening, then having him see or take part in killing animals is the exact opposite of what he should be doing.  Since he’s making literal death threats against humans, you don’t want him getting used to seeing death or taking part in killing animals.  It will make it easier to carry out death threats against humans.

And if he’s addicted to drugs, he won’t be able to just stop because he’s in Japan.  And if they are strict on drugs, what happens if he ends up in a Japanese prison for years?  Does he speak the language?  Or will he be a complete outsider and target for violence in the prison for years on end?

 

I agree completely. 

And seriously, why would anyone send their child overseas to take a menial job in a slaughterhouse, of all places??? That sounds more like a terrible punishment than a job opportunity. I can imagine it ending horribly on so many levels for this poor young man. 😞

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

There are also some you tube films of such slaughter, perhaps worth parent viewing and perhaps the 17yo Ds before committing to the summer work.  

ETA- if the son says he’d love to be doing that, I’m not sure that isn’t even all the more reason for him not to. 

 

That is such a good point, Pen! Considering what we have learned in this thread, it is actually worse if he wants the job than if he doesn’t.

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32 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree completely. 

And seriously, why would anyone send their child overseas to take a menial job in a slaughterhouse, of all places??? That sounds more like a terrible punishment than a job opportunity. I can imagine it ending horribly on so many levels for this poor young man. 😞

 

They seem to have a Tokyo place of residence acc user profile      ? 

Sounds like they went to Boston  from Japan for the school “for” the boy—except that it seemed really to be what the parents wanted, not what the boy wanted   Seems he wanted a regular public school, but instead he got religious school, followed by unsuccessful homeschool year, followed by charter school ...

aside from slaughterhouse issue, and more religion issues,    possibly, a farm like,  kibbutz like,  environment with people the boy already knows might be relatively okay 

 

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12 hours ago, Pen said:

 

They seem to have a Tokyo place of residence acc user profile      ? 

Sounds like they went to Boston  from Japan for the school “for” the boy—except that it seemed really to be what the parents wanted, not what the boy wanted   Seems he wanted a regular public school, but instead he got religious school, followed by unsuccessful homeschool year, followed by charter school ...

aside from slaughterhouse issue, and more religion issues,    possibly, a farm like,  kibbutz like,  environment with people the boy already knows might be relatively okay 

 

Pen what does the bolded mean?

i agree with what I think you are saying. If they lived in Japan and the young man knows that lifestyle and culture I doubt seriously the slaughterhouse job is going to be a bad thing.  Of course it sounds horrible to someone who has never  experienced slaughtering animals but only buying them packaged in the supermarket. 

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I have been reading along and frankly OP I am not sure what to think.  Part of me believes he could spiral down to doing something horrible.  And part of me thinks he is just a  bright boy disillusioned with the world who needs to find some purpose.   I would have to know more about who his friends are on line especially but IRL too. 

I was thinking earlier that the young man probably needs his father around more...then I got a little angry because hey everyone has a less than perfect life situation.....some boys his age are living in poverty without a father. And the bottom line is we all have to come to a place of  realizing we are responsible for ourselves and our actions.  Probably his life of relative privilege has kept him out of jail so far.  But that won’t last for ever especially in the current climate.

i would definitely focus on filling his life with good things instead of punishing him. And good things can be a menial job....boys that age need a lot of physical exertion.  It is good for them.   I am glad he is open to realizing too much internet and electronics might be harmful to him.  

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2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Pen what does the bolded mean?

i agree with what I think you are saying. If they lived in Japan and the young man knows that lifestyle and culture I doubt seriously the slaughterhouse job is going to be a bad thing.  Of course it sounds horrible to someone who has never  experienced slaughtering animals but only buying them packaged in the supermarket. 

 

Look at Yael’s profile - 

Afaik they lived in Japan from when boy was 6ish to start of high school  - and it’s still listed as where they live on profile

afaik the family he’d be with are people he knows from time living in Japan 

My imaginary image of the situation is a kibbutz like farm that includes a slaughterhouse...  among other things  

I have presumed he’d know Japanese as well as English, Hebrew at least biblical, modern too perhaps, Arabic perhaps... may be a little Aramaic...

Edited by Pen
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2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Of course it sounds horrible to someone who has never  experienced slaughtering animals but only buying them packaged in the supermarket. 

 

I don’t think supermarkets usually carry packaged kosher meat— but I don’t know 

 

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52 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I don’t think supermarkets usually carry packaged kosher meat— but I don’t know 

 

Well I wasn’t talking about it being kosher. Just that some people have never seen an animal slaughtered so it seems horrible . 

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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Well I wasn’t talking about it being kosher. Just that some people have never seen an animal slaughtered so it seems horrible . 

 

I mean if they were in Japan they may have gotten their meats from this other family and he may have already seen some of the process.

 

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4 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Look at Yael’s profile - 

Afaik they lived in Japan from when boy was 6ish to start of high school  - and it’s still listed as where they live on profile

afaik the family he’d be with are people he knows from time living in Japan 

My imaginary image of the situation is a kibbutz like farm that includes a slaughterhouse...  among other things  

I have presumed he’d know Japanese as well as English, Hebrew at least biblical, modern too perhaps, Arabic perhaps... may be a little Aramaic...

 

I don't think they are still in Japan.  Yael said that hubby was in Australia and his Sabbath began 14 hours before hers.  There is only 1 hour difference between Japan and Australia, but 14 between Aus and Boston.  

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I would sit down and have a talk and tell him that your goals are for him to be happy and productive. That he obviously is not happy right now because happy people don’t go around threatening others. And he isn’t being productive at school. So what would help him to be happy and productive? For you, part of what makes you happy and productive is your religion but you understand that isn’t what he wants. So what does he want? Ask him to think about what would make him happy and productive in life.I would sit down and have a talk and tell him that your goals are for him to be happy and productive. That he obviously is not happy right now because happy people don’t go around threatening others. And he isn’t being productive at school. So what would help him to be happy and productive? For you, part of what makes you happy and productive is your religion but you understand that isn’t what he wants. So what does he want? Ask him to think about what would make him happy and productive in life.

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I'm so sorry for how harsh this will sound, but DO NOT send this young man to Japan to work in a slaughterhouse and supervise young children! 

The person that has been described here needs psychiatric help.  The whole family does.  Something is deeply, deeply wrong here! 

Why do you want to send this mentally unstable young man to the other side of the world to work in a slaughterhouse?  What is the positive that you envision coming from this?  If there is money to pay for private religious schools and a trip to Japan, then surely there is money to get him into psychotherapy?!  

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13 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I'm so sorry for how harsh this will sound, but DO NOT send this young man to Japan to work in a slaughterhouse and supervise young children! 

The person that has been described here needs psychiatric help.  The whole family does.  Something is deeply, deeply wrong here! 

Why do you want to send this mentally unstable young man to the other side of the world to work in a slaughterhouse?  What is the positive that you envision coming from this?  If there is money to pay for private religious schools and a trip to Japan, then surely there is money to get him into psychotherapy?!  

 

I agree with you that’s it’s a mistake to send him to Japan to work in a slaughterhouse. Personally,  I would hate to see any kid have to do  that kind of work, but given what we know about the current situation, it seems like a particularly terrible idea. And it scares me to think of a potentially violent person with a history of buying illegal weapons and actively plotting the maiming or death of a teacher being given the job of babysitting young children.

It sounds like Yael has been concerned for a while and that she has had her son psycholologically evaluated on more than one occasion, so she is definitely trying to help him, and it seems like her son has agreed to be treated for internet addiction and to see a psychologist. Apparently, Yael and her dh also have a therapist. So efforts are being made. But that’s why I can’t figure out why they would even consider sending him away, and no matter how hard I try to view it otherwise, the job at the slaughterhouse sounds like a severe punishment, and it makes no sense to me. I can think of absolutely nothing positive or meaningful about an intelligent-but-troubled young man doing menial, manual labor at a slaughterhouse.

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2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Well I wasn’t talking about it being kosher. Just that some people have never seen an animal slaughtered so it seems horrible . 

 

How is it NOT horrible to watch an animal being slaughtered, or even worse, to participate in that slaughter?

(Not being snarky — it’s an honest question.)

 

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56 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

I don't think they are still in Japan.  Yael said that hubby was in Australia and his Sabbath began 14 hours before hers.  There is only 1 hour difference between Japan and Australia, but 14 between Aus and Boston.  

 

 

THey are  in Boston.  We know that.  🙂

What’s not clear is whether more of family would be in Japan over summer. Or where they’ll be

Edited by Pen

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I only know a teensy bit about slaughterhouse work from vet tech school.  Maybe this varies from place to place, but the houses near my old college had the workers rotate through the jobs because it was too mentally/emotionally hard on the workers to always be the one killing the animals.  They had to rotate through different jobs every few days to save their mental health. 

There's a difference between working a family farm where you slaughter a few animals in season each year and working at a commercial slaughterhouse, where you are killing dozens of animals every day.  This is not an easy job.  At all. 

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12 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

How is it NOT horrible to watch an animal being slaughtered, or even worse, to participate in that slaughter?

(Not being snarky — it’s an honest question.)

 

I guess if it were horrible enough to everyone the entire world would be vegetarian. Someone has to do it.  And I got the sense that the family has an existing relationship to this family with this business....so he has probably previously been exposed to that business and also who knows what his actual job would be.  

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I guess if it were horrible enough to everyone the entire world would be vegetarian. Someone has to do it.  And I got the sense that the family has an existing relationship to this family with this business....so he has probably previously been exposed to that business and also who knows what his actual job would be.  

 

But why should he be sent halfway around the world to do a disgusting job? It’s not like his family is desperate for money and the kid has to find any available local job to help pay the household bills.

This young man apparently has a fascination with illegal knives and has planned the death or maiming of a teacher, so sending him to a place where death, knives, and blood are part of an ordinary day seems reckless at best.

 

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7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

How is it NOT horrible to watch an animal being slaughtered, or even worse, to participate in that slaughter?

(Not being snarky — it’s an honest question.)

 

 

There’s a big range of what happens.

 Our local farm source , the animals are grass pastured, then killed at home quickly (like shot in head) outdoors in their regular fields environment- so relatively little stress of transport or confinement- and dead bodies taken to butcher.  It’s about as least bad as it can be, imo.

you can see videos for various ways of how large commercial operations do it— both life of the animals before slaughter and the slaughter itself 

kosher operations are probably somewhat in between with  more natural grazing life making the experience during life less bad—but the required slaughter probably more stressful, especially if they are hung upside down by one leg while alive prior to throats being slit and the animal being bled out—again you can see videos

(the Amish also seem to hang and bleed out their animals)

 

Iirc some countries have made kosher (and halal) slaughter methods illegal due to cruelty  

 

 

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Lots of healthy people - adults and teens - have slaughtered animals for food over the millennia.  It is not akin to torturing insects and small animals.

But - while a change of scenery and friends (esp. if those friends are leading you astray) can be beneficial, it is not a replacement for actual mental health services.  (Which I see that Yael understands.)

Living in Japan could be beneficial because you have to work a lot harder for access to drugs.  But as others have mentioned, there is very much a zero tolerance policy there in society and law enforcement circles.  A lot depends on what kind of friends he has there.  It is a lot easier to get a hold of drugs in Ex-pat circles than regular Japanese society esp. if you are not involved in gangs.  But of course that depends on what kind of an Ex-Pat circle you are talking about.

Japanese jails are not akin to what I know of Latin American jails as far as treatment in jail but sentences are not lenient and police interview tactics are notorious for being a bit more on the "presumed guilty" side of things.  A young person trying to enter the country with drugs might well just be deported on the spot.  (I have known this to happen over the years and those people are blackballed from trying to go back to Japan again.)

 

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8 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Lots of healthy people - adults and teens - have slaughtered animals for food over the millennia.  It is not akin to torturing insects and small animals.

 

What does that have to do with Yael’s son? Why does the fact that other people have slaughtered animals for food make it a good idea for Yael’s son to slaughter animals? He certainly doesn’t need to do it for food. He certainly isn’t in a position where it’s the only job he would be capable of doing. He most definitely wouldn’t have to leave his family and travel around the world to get a menial job like that. And for what purpose would an intelligent, rigorously educated young man take a job at a slaughterhouse? How could possibly be considered a positive and advantageous experience for him? 

And in this case, Yael’s son does not sound mentally healthy right now. Should a young man who has been contemplating serious violence be in an environment of death and blood all day? I’m sorry, but I don’t think Yael’s son belongs in a slaughterhouse. Obviously, you are free to disagree with me.

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39 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

There’s a big range of what happens.

 Our local farm source , the animals are grass pastured, then killed at home quickly (like shot in head) outdoors in their regular fields environment- so relatively little stress of transport or confinement- and dead bodies taken to butcher.  It’s about as least bad as it can be, imo.

you can see videos for various ways of how large commercial operations do it— both life of the animals before slaughter and the slaughter itself 

kosher operations are probably somewhat in between with  more natural grazing life making the experience during life less bad—but the required slaughter probably more stressful, especially if they are hung upside down by one leg while alive prior to throats being slit and the animal being bled out—again you can see videos

(the Amish also seem to hang and bleed out their animals)

 

Iirc some countries have made kosher (and halal) slaughter methods illegal due to cruelty  

 

 

 

Thanks.

But do you think Yael’s son should really be in even the best possible slaughterhouse environment, given his current fascination with weapons and his plans for potentially deadly violence? If he was my son, I would want him as far away from guns and knives and blood and death as humanly possible. Based on your posts in this thread, I don’t think you feel this is a good idea, either... but I think others believe it would be fine.

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