SAT Adversity Score starting this fall

[prairiewindmomma]

CNN is reporting that WSJ is reporting that beginning in the fall, the SAT will be including an "adversity score" with its test scores. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html

[Lawyer&Mom]

They can provide their score, for better or worse, but only the college can decide what to do with it.  I imagine the most colleges already have access to equally comprehensive demographic data.  Not to mention the individual-specific data kids provide on their application?

So not sure what value this adds, except to make the SAT look like it is being proactive about the issue of income disparity in test scores?

 

 

[Farrar]

I've been asking, but haven't seen anyone state for sure what will be done about homeschoolers. I've also seen some conflicting information. Some people seemed to say that it'll be purely by zip code, which is rather a flat measure. Others seemed to say it would be partly zip code, partly other factors such as the actual school the student attends.

It's concerning to me that students won't be allowed to know their scores. Though, College Board, so hardly a surprise that they're being secretive in a very unuseful way.

[Mom0012]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

CNN is reporting that WSJ is reporting that beginning in the fall, the SAT will be including an "adversity score" with its test scores. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html

I hope this is the beginning of the end of the CB. 

[...................]

What a crock...

In my little hometown within a 2 mile radius and same zip code there were immigrants right off the boat living multiple families in one rental unit....there were average middle class workers ....and less than 1/2 mile away multi-million dollar homes of mostly business owners who owned large multi-generational businesses.

At my PRIVATE high school my mom who was a legal immigrant from Brazil who came here at 14, dropped out of high school, but worked hard and got her GED, had the misfortune of realizing she married a total lunatic, got herself together and earned an associates in accounting, worked her way up numerous payroll and accounting jobs while trying to keep three kids and a crazy ex husband all situated (hint: it was not a good scene)...

How would I be ranked?  Privileged?  because my zip code is in the same zip as the multi million dollar homes? Or privileged because I went to a private high school?  (because my mom made every sacrifice and I earned a 75% scholarship by winning the diocese catholic scholarship exam?)  My mom and I together earned that spot in that school, and I was not and she was not privileged.  

This is so ridiculous.... I . Can't. even.

Students have to be judged based on their record as STUDENTS and if they want to tell about their hardships add an extra hardship essay, not another false societal judgement that is not based on facts.

[Mom0012]

I wonder if this will put an end to self reporting scores? Or, am I mistaken and official SAT scores have to generally be sent before admissions decisions are made? I know AP scores are self-reported at most schools.

[AEC]

1 hour ago, Mom0012 said:

I wonder if this will put an end to self reporting scores? Or, am I mistaken and official SAT scores have to generally be sent before admissions decisions are made? I know AP scores are self-reported at most schools.

Was at Stanford for a tour & admissions Q&A this week.  They noted specifically that you can self-report SAT/ACT scores and only send an official after you're admitted.  They also noted that they're find if you've taken the writing part and you just leave it out (it wasn't even me that asked!)

[Farrar]

They say there's no way at all for a student to see their adversity score, so holding off on sending the scores shouldn't make a difference for that specifically, unless I'm not understanding the comment. Though if it is straight up by zip code as some suggest, and not an individual measure, then I can't imagine that stuff's not going to leak.

The CB is both more and less powerful than ever. I think they're trying to stay relevant and get ahead of the fact that so many schools are moving away from using the SAT as a major measure.

Supposedly in the pilot trial, most of the schools considered the adversity measure for the students in the middle. The ones with top scores were admits, the ones with bottom scores weren't, and for the ones in the middle, then they looked at other factors, including the adversity score.

As for zip codes... yeah. Like, sometimes zip code is a decent stab at something. But I live in a zip code that's incredibly diverse by nearly every measure. There's a lot of violence, compared to a baseline (it doesn't feel to me like a violent area, but compared to a sleepy suburb, I get that it is), but there are also a lot of resources and access to resources. The zip code is zoned for two high schools that are relatively different (one has half the graduation rate of the other). And probably about half of high school students in my zip code don't attend either zoned public school at all - they attend magnet, charter, or private schools. I don't know that a zip code measure can especially tell you much.

I think what they're trying to do - even the playing field - is potentially good. But I don't trust the CB and I don't know how they're really making this measure. So...

[Mom0012]

12 minutes ago, AEC said:

Was at Stanford for a tour & admissions Q&A this week.  They noted specifically that you can self-report SAT/ACT scores and only send an official after you're admitted.  They also noted that they're find if you've taken the writing part and you just leave it out (it wasn't even me that asked!)

Thank you for sharing that info about the writing portion.

 

[Mom0012]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

They say there's no way at all for a student to see their adversity score, so holding off on sending the scores shouldn't make a difference for that specifically, unless I'm not understanding the comment. Though if it is straight up by zip code as some suggest, and not an individual measure, then I can't imagine that stuff's not going to leak.

The CB is both more and less powerful than ever. I think they're trying to stay relevant and get ahead of the fact that so many schools are moving away from using the SAT as a major measure.

Supposedly in the pilot trial, most of the schools considered the adversity measure for the students in the middle. The ones with top scores were admits, the ones with bottom scores weren't, and for the ones in the middle, then they looked at other factors, including the adversity score.

As for zip codes... yeah. Like, sometimes zip code is a decent stab at something. But I live in a zip code that's incredibly diverse by nearly every measure. There's a lot of violence, compared to a baseline (it doesn't feel to me like a violent area, but compared to a sleepy suburb, I get that it is), but there are also a lot of resources and access to resources. The zip code is zoned for two high schools that are relatively different (one has half the graduation rate of the other). And probably about half of high school students in my zip code don't attend either zoned public school at all - they attend magnet, charter, or private schools. I don't know that a zip code measure can especially tell you much.

I think what they're trying to do - even the playing field - is potentially good. But I don't trust the CB and I don't know how they're really making this measure. So...

Well, I was assuming the adversity score would be sent with the official score after the student has already been admitted. So, at least for now, the score wouldn’t play into admissions. Or, am I missing something?

According to this article: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/college-board-introduces-adversity-score-to-control-for-privilege-in-admissions/

“The purpose is to get to race without using race,” Anthony Carnevale, director of Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, told the Journal.

The use of an adversity score did in fact lead to greater racial diversity in the case of Florida State University, which successfully increased its non-white enrollment from 37 percent to 42 percent among its incoming freshman class.

“If I am going to make room for more of the [poor and minority] students we want to admit and I have a finite number of spaces, then someone has to suffer and that will be privileged kids on the bubble,” John Barnhill, assistant vice president for academic affairs at Florida State University, told the Journal.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Mom0012

[Farrar]

34 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

Well, I was assuming the adversity score would be sent with the official score after the student has already been admitted. So, at least for now, the score wouldn’t play into admissions. Or, am I missing something?

According to this article: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/college-board-introduces-adversity-score-to-control-for-privilege-in-admissions/

“The purpose is to get to race without using race,” Anthony Carnevale, director of Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, told the Journal.

The use of an adversity score did in fact lead to greater racial diversity in the case of Florida State University, which successfully increased its non-white enrollment from 37 percent to 42 percent among its incoming freshman class.

“If I am going to make room for more of the [poor and minority] students we want to admit and I have a finite number of spaces, then someone has to suffer and that will be privileged kids on the bubble,” John Barnhill, assistant vice president for academic affairs at Florida State University, told the Journal.

As I understand it, the score is supposed to play into admissions as much as the school wants to use it - which, of course, they can or can choose not to. I think it does go with the score report but they say students will not be allowed to see their own - only the college will. When you couple that with the fact that students are already providing the data involved in creating the score to any colleges and most colleges still require the SAT or the ACT... then it seems to me like it's not going to radically change who takes it or who reports their scores. I don't think students will have the ability to leave the adversity score off. Again, unless I'm missing something about what you're saying.

[Mom0012]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

As I understand it, the score is supposed to play into admissions as much as the school wants to use it - which, of course, they can or can choose not to. I think it does go with the score report but they say students will not be allowed to see their own - only the college will. When you couple that with the fact that students are already providing the data involved in creating the score to any colleges and most colleges still require the SAT or the ACT... then it seems to me like it's not going to radically change who takes it or who reports their scores. I don't think students will have the ability to leave the adversity score off. Again, unless I'm missing something about what you're saying.

I *think* this is where we are crossing wires — when you apply to college, many colleges let you just input (self-report) your SAT score without submitting the original report from the CB. Then, if you are accepted and decide to go to the school, you then send the official report. So, I was wondering how this diversity score would be seen before admissions by colleges if students would not be self-reporting it (since they won’t even know what it is).

I agree, though, that colleges already have the data that is used to generate the adversity score. I am also sure that if they want access to the score generated by the CB, they will get it.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Mom0012

[SanDiegoMom]

I would think for public schoolers it would be irrelevant. Colleges already have information about the school the students are coming from - so high achieving students in a school that is struggling socioeconomically will get a bump compared to a good all around student or a middling student from a high achieving high school.  I don’t see how a zip code could be better than that information. I feel like it’s just hype.  

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Mom0012 said:

I *think* this is where we are crossing wires — when you apply to college, many colleges let you just input (self-report) your SAT score without submitting the original report from the CB. Then, if you are accepted and decide to go to the school, you then send the official report. So, I was wondering how this diversity score would be seen before admissions by colleges if students would not be self-reporting it (since they won’t even know what it is).

I agree, though, that colleges already have the data that is used to generate the adversity score. I am also sure that if they want access to the score generated by the CB, they will get it.

Okay, I see. I knew that, but I guess I was thinking that a lot of students send the report ahead of time. If they didn't use it in admissions, how could it have "worked" to increase diversity at the schools in the pilot program? Either way though, since students can't see their own score, I don't know if it will change the numbers on self-reporting.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One thing I've seen elsewhere is that many high schools don't have a school profile document or have one that leaves many questions unanswered. When I read what CB is trying to it it seems in pary like information the school should be providing.  But if there isn't a school profile then the info might not be there.

It is possible that schools might also tend toward profiles that are largely positive and don't highlight what students have to overcome to do well.

But the comment above about nit trusting College Board is my response in a nutshell.

[3andme]

If the College Board really believes this index is valuable, why are they keeping it hidden from students? Don't students have a right to know what kind of information is supplied on them via the CB. If personal data is used to build the index, I believe the student's should have the ability to determine if the index is supplied with their scores as it may influence the admissions decisions. 

[alewife]

12 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

I *think* this is where we are crossing wires — when you apply to college, many colleges let you just input (self-report) your SAT score without submitting the original report from the CB. Then, if you are accepted and decide to go to the school, you then send the official report. So, I was wondering how this diversity score would be seen before admissions by colleges if students would not be self-reporting it (since they won’t even know what it is).

I agree, though, that colleges already have the data that is used to generate the adversity score. I am also sure that if they want access to the score generated by the CB, they will get it.

Just based on the article linked in the OP, it looks like the colleges can get access to the diversity score even if the college has a policy of permitting the students to self-report scores and only send official reports once they are accepted and decide to enroll.   

Yale, a college that permits students to self-report test scores, was cited in the article: 

Yale University was one of the schools that tried using the adversity scores as it worked to increase socioeconomic diversity on its campus.  Jeremiah Quinlan, the school's dean of undergraduate admissions, told the Wall Street Journal that Yale has nearly doubled the number of low-income students and those who are first in their families to attend college to about 20% of new students. 

"This (adversity score) is literally affecting every application we look at," Quinlan told the Journal. "It has been a part of the success story to help diversify our freshman class."  

 

So the College Board is sharing information with colleges about the applicants without the applicants' knowledge or consent.  

 

How can Yale claim to be "need-blind" when this adversity score was used in evaluating every applicant?

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by alewife

[Mom0012]

1 hour ago, alewife said:

Just based on the article linked in the OP, it looks like the colleges can get access to the diversity score even if the college has a policy of permitting the students to self-report scores and only send official reports once they are accepted and decide to enroll.   

Yale, a college that permits students to self-report test scores, was cited in the article: 

Yale University was one of the schools that tried using the adversity scores as it worked to increase socioeconomic diversity on its campus.  Jeremiah Quinlan, the school's dean of undergraduate admissions, told the Wall Street Journal that Yale has nearly doubled the number of low-income students and those who are first in their families to attend college to about 20% of new students. 

"This (adversity score) is literally affecting every application we look at," Quinlan told the Journal. "It has been a part of the success story to help diversify our freshman class."  

 

So the College Board is sharing information with colleges about the applicants without the applicants' knowledge or consent.  

 

How can Yale claim to be "need-blind" when this adversity score was used in evaluating every applicant?

 

 

Yes, I didn’t read the original article carefully enough, but have since seen that as well. Honestly, the whole thing sickens me. 

[Mom0012]

I just realized in my earlier post that I called it a diversity score (accidentally) instead of an adversity score, lol. I just saw where someone else did that on CC.  It’s easy to do.

[alewife]

6 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

I just realized in my earlier post that I called it a diversity score (accidentally) instead of an adversity score, lol. I just saw where someone else did that on CC.  It’s easy to do.

It looks like some are viewing it as a diversity score:

“The purpose is to get to race without using race,” said Anthony Carnevale, director of Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce

 

[JennyD]

But the CB is already providing colleges with information about test-takers' economic background.  It's called the SAT score.

I agree with whoever said upthread that the CB is desperately trying to stay relevant.  

[Mom0012]

14 minutes ago, JennyD said:

But the CB is already providing colleges with information about test-takers' economic background.  It's called the SAT score.

I agree with whoever said upthread that the CB is desperately trying to stay relevant.  

I don’t get that comment? In my family, who is all geographically local, we have one kid who is in the top 1%, one who is in the top 20% and 3 who are well below the 50th percentile. How does this reveal our economic background, which is the same?

Honestly, I’d like to believe it is just about the CB staying relevant, but it sounds like the information they provided actually had a substantial impact on outcomes last year at the 50 schools that used it.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Mom0012

[Arcadia]

34 minutes ago, JennyD said:

But the CB is already providing colleges with information about test-takers' economic background.  It's called the SAT score.

 

There are lots of Asians who score very well but are from disadvantaged backgrounds.

The one thing that is in their favor is that they would be first generation college applicants but that’s not reflected in the SAT score report but in the college applications.

[alewife]

42 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

I don’t get that comment? In my family, who is all geographically local, we have one kid who is in the top 1%, one who is in the top 20% and 3 who are well below the 50th percentile. How does this reveal our economic background, which is the same?

Honestly, I’d like to believe it is just about the CB staying relevant, but it sounds like the information they provided actually had a substantial impact on outcomes last year at the 50 schools that used it.

The US News Rankings changed its methodology last year to include social mobility.  In my opinion, this change is driving the CB's adversity score.

The 2019 U.S. News rankings are out today, and the rankings powerhouse is boasting that it has changed its methodology to take social mobility into account.

[Roadrunner]

So what about kids who opt to only take ACT? Their “adversity” won’t be considered? 

[Farrar]

Realistically, every college has every bit of this data already from applicants. Lots of them are moving toward using their own in house methods for this. The CB is like, oh, we can do that for you! Look at us! We're very important. You don't want to ditch us and go test optional because we've adjusted for adversity.

[chiguirre]

I remember having to list my parent's educational attainment back in the olden days. I'm pretty sure apps still ask for that (I went and checked--they do). So they know immediately if you're first generation or not. I think I even had to say where my parents and I were born so they know if you or your parents are immigrants. 

They already have your zip code (and access to the marketing databases that describe its socioeconomic and cultural context in incredible detail). They can just zillow your home address if they have any doubts about your socioeconomic status without even buying the marketing database. They can check your high schools rankings and they know how many APs you took and your grades in them (or IB or DE).

All of this information is already right there on the application.

 

[alewife]

On 5/17/2019 at 9:57 AM, Roadrunner said:

So what about kids who opt to only take ACT? Their “adversity” won’t be considered? 

I saw David Coleman interviewed on CNN this morning.  He said that the adversity score will be provided to colleges for students who take the SAT or ACT.   How is the College Board able to provide data for students who have never taken the SAT? Why are students prohibited from seeing their adversity number?  How are colleges using this adversity number?    

Edited May 18, 2019 by alewife

[Arcadia]

10 minutes ago, alewife said:

   How is the College Board able to provide data for students who have never taken the SAT? 

 

PSAT, CLEP, AP, CSS Profile.

[alewife]

3 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

PSAT, CLEP, AP, CSS Profile.

Not everyone takes those tests, either, and many schools don't require the CSS.  How is the CB able to provide this adversity score for every applicant?  Is the ACT providing some of the data?

[Arcadia]

45 minutes ago, alewife said:

Not everyone takes those tests, either, and many schools don't require the CSS.  How is the CB able to provide this adversity score for every applicant?  

 

I watched this CNN video with captions on as this is likely the one you quoted from.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2019/05/18/college-board-ceo-on-new-sat-adversity-score.cnn

It is mentioned in the interview that the adversity score would still be a broad brush as the comparison is with the residential neighborhood (probably the home zip code). So even if an applicant doesn’t take the SAT, the CollegeBoard would still have their own data about the zip code.

I think it is just like anyone can key my zip code into citi-data and know quite a bit of info about my zip code. Even though my kids did not check the box for family income, the CollegeBoard already know they don’t qualify for free/reduced lunch because they don’t qualify for a fee waiver. 

[LisaKinVA]

On 5/16/2019 at 10:08 PM, Calming Tea said:

What a crock...

In my little hometown within a 2 mile radius and same zip code there were immigrants right off the boat living multiple families in one rental unit....there were average middle class workers ....and less than 1/2 mile away multi-million dollar homes of mostly business owners who owned large multi-generational businesses.

At my PRIVATE high school my mom who was a legal immigrant from Brazil who came here at 14, dropped out of high school, but worked hard and got her GED, had the misfortune of realizing she married a total lunatic, got herself together and earned an associates in accounting, worked her way up numerous payroll and accounting jobs while trying to keep three kids and a crazy ex husband all situated (hint: it was not a good scene)...

How would I be ranked?  Privileged?  because my zip code is in the same zip as the multi million dollar homes? Or privileged because I went to a private high school?  (because my mom made every sacrifice and I earned a 75% scholarship by winning the diocese catholic scholarship exam?)  My mom and I together earned that spot in that school, and I was not and she was not privileged.  

This is so ridiculous.... I . Can't. even.

Students have to be judged based on their record as STUDENTS and if they want to tell about their hardships add an extra hardship essay, not another false societal judgement that is not based on facts.

What she said... student-s are more than a black and white set of data points at a point in time.  They bring with them a whole host of unseen/unknown layers.  One "privileged" zip code in my area has a good number of families living in double-wide trailers not far from the million dollar homes.  Other families are doubled up, because they can't afford to live in the area other wise.  Many of these same families earn just enough more than what would entitle them to health care or food assistance, but they don't qualify.  Others are renting from a friend or family member at below market rent, working on the property in addition to a full time job.  Some families stuck together through circumstances that often tear others apart.  As we search for places to live, the areas in which we are looking (because we can afford them) we are told to avoid.  Maybe God is having us move into a struggling area in order that we might bless our neighbors with what we can help them with?  I don't know.  I just know I'm not paying $1,500 a month to live in a 1,200 square foot house in the nice area because my friends don't like the neighborhood we can afford.  We've lived and stayed in worse.  I do know as my daughter gets ready to start all of her essays, I'm going to make sure she has all of the documentation she needs to tell her story.  It is far from the norm of that of our peers.  

[Serenade]

I'm glad my boys are planning to get their Associate's degrees at one of our local community colleges and then seamlessly transfer to an in-state 4 year school without being required to take the SAT or the ACT. 

 

[Farrar]

Honestly, I don't dislike what they're trying to do. I see all the ways that this will hurt some kids (say, poor families with difficult backgrounds who fight to live in expensive, cushy zip codes for the sake of their kids) and help others who don't deserve it necessarily (say, my privileged middle class white kids who live in an inner city zip code). I think what they're trying to do is good - they need to find ways to increase diversity because they know their test is flawed and serves as a proctor for class. It's just a question of whether this is the right way.

[tampamommy]

deleted

Edited May 19, 2019 by tampamommy
further research on topic

[mom2scouts]

My entire city has the same zip code, so that would be interesting. I live in a lower middle class neighborhood and a block away is a run down apartment building and very small old houses and a couple of blocks the other way is a wealthy neighborhood. My old neighborhood has the same zip code, but was very low income and was very racially mixed white/black. Knowing the zip code wouldn't tell you a thing about adversity in my area.

[Lawyer&Mom]

40 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

My entire city has the same zip code, so that would be interesting. I live in a lower middle class neighborhood and a block away is a run down apartment building and very small old houses and a couple of blocks the other way is a wealthy neighborhood. My old neighborhood has the same zip code, but was very low income and was very racially mixed white/black. Knowing the zip code wouldn't tell you a thing about adversity in my area.

 

Zip +4?  There is very granular data out there.  It really depends on how far they are going to drill down.  Since they don’t plan to show their work, who knows?

[frogger]

Yes, our street has 3/4 of a million dollar homes and double wide trailers intermixed. It makes sense, perhaps, to go by what school you attend but that only helps to know the quality of different programs and teachers were similar not race or class since we have 1 high school for most of the town. Some on the edge of town travel to the neighboring school but once again rich and poor are mixed together.

[mom2scouts]

22 hours ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

 

Zip +4?  There is very granular data out there.  It really depends on how far they are going to drill down.  Since they don’t plan to show their work, who knows?

Nope, we have the same zip +4 as our old neighborhood. Our entire city only has one high school. They're going to have to do way more work to determine adversity than mostly using zip codes.

[ByGrace3]

Well, here is the thing, if we are going to talk about adversity, how is it fair to isolate this to economic adversity? Privilege is so much bigger than socioeconomic.  And determining it by zip code is absurd. I look out the back and it looks like a scene out of deliverance...and the next street over, million dollar homes . . . this isn't rare around here. And using a school as an adversity factor? Like mentioned by a previous poster what about the parents who like mine growing up sacrificed everything to have us in private school. Everyone has a story.