Ugh, I have to enforce a boundary with dd

[SereneHome]

11 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Yeah... she really has been (and still is, mostly, not always obviously!) an easy kid. But that makes it hard when I want to let her have something and can't. I am hopeful that this experience will help her take responsibility for her own choices.

I am trying to work on ideas for further scaffolding. Another issue is that when we do brainstorm together and come up with ideas for working on a problem, she's usually all in during the discussion but then proceeds to throw it out the window and refuses to follow through. She can be a little passive-aggressive that way. (She gets it from her dad, lol! 😁) I've asked her why, but she says she doesn't know. I think partly she just doesn't like to make much of an effort. She's used to things coming easily to her.

At least this is one of those times when the privilege isn't life-altering, and she won't be damaged by having to wait until she demonstrates that she's ready for it. She wouldn't be damaged by not having it at all, but it would be nice.

I didn't finish reading the thread after this post, so, if what I am about to say has been mentioned and discussed, sorry for wasting your time

I can't speak as a parent of a teenager, but I will speak about myself

I have NO external  currency.  None!  I have examples after examples when A or B or C were offered to me if I only did X and I WANTED A or B or C so badly and yet.....it just didn't motivate me enough. One huge example that comes to mind - my Dad wanted to help me to pay for college if I only got decent grades.  He never had to pay a penny.  And I do value $$.  But I didn't like college and did poorly and nothing was changing that.  Fast forward a few decades and I had 3.9 GPA in my Master's Program while no one offered me any intensives what-so-ever.

For me to change my habits, my behaviour, my anything - something inside has to click.  I can't explain it any other way. 

Just a different perspective somewhat....

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

PeachyDoodle, I'm confused. If you're certain that she's going to beat herself up about Ce, why are you so convinced that she chose to do/not do the thing? Those two facts don't add up.

I think that they do (or at least that they can). Follow-through can be hard. Making the right choice can be hard. Regret is easy. People beat themselves up over making the wrong choice all the time when they were perfectly capable of making the right choice. I'm such an idiot, I should have . . . gone to the gym, stayed after class for that extra credit activity, filled my tank with gas on the way home so I wouldn't have to do it in the morning and run late, etc etc. 

 

8 hours ago, forty-two said:

FWIW, there's a dark side to insisting that her mistakes aren't moral failings - it denies her grace and forgiveness.  Forgiveness is for sins, and if her mistakes aren't sins, then they can't be forgiven.  So how is she to deal with them, if there is no forgiveness for them? 

I've never encountered the concept that forgiveness is only for sins. Certainly I know many secular people who both seek forgiveness from, and offer forgiveness to, other people. Perhaps God only forgives sins, but humans forgive all kinds of things.  That might be hard to understand from a religious perspective, but I assure you that human forgiveness can also have tremendous power. 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, SereneHome said:

 

For me to change my habits, my behaviour, my anything - something inside has to click.  I can't explain it any other way. 

Just a different perspective somewhat....

cognitive function related to development of the brain.  I dealt with the exact same thing.  I struggled to read.  really. struggled. (and mocked by other kids because of it.)  then, something finally "clicked" and I went from struggling to college level in under a year in jr. high.  my boys had the same thing - and I'm *really hoping* this is 'a big part of what is going on with dudeling (because then I can be optimistic that one day something will finally click with him.)

I used to joke "his gui won't talk to his HD."  (because that is how I understood what happened with me. I could 'see' the parts, but the grand canyon was between them and they weren't going to connect no matter how hard I tried.)  it was the best description I could come up with.  one audiologist I spoke with was absolutely that described one form of capd. one form (dudeling has been diagnosed with it.) is the lagging development of the corpus callosum. (more prevalent in boys than girls.) it facilitates communication between the left and right hemispheres of the brain. it doesn't actually reach full development until 25?ish.

[PeachyDoodle]

5 hours ago, katilac said:

I think that they do (or at least that they can). Follow-through can be hard. Making the right choice can be hard. Regret is easy. People beat themselves up over making the wrong choice all the time when they were perfectly capable of making the right choice. I'm such an idiot, I should have . . . gone to the gym, stayed after class for that extra credit activity, filled my tank with gas on the way home so I wouldn't have to do it in the morning and run late, etc etc. 

Yes. This is what I've been trying to describe. And this is why I don't think it's an EF issue -- at least not in any big way. It may very well be a maturity issue, which is why I am backing off to let her have the space to deal with it herself. It takes maturity to do the right thing when the wrong thing is easier. And maturity to learn from that mistake instead of using it as a whip to beat yourself with so you don't have to change.

My dh is the exact same way. Or was. We have been together since we were 15, and we just turned 40, so I've seen a lot of growth in him in 25 years. (Hopefully he can say the same about me). DD is already way ahead of him, so there's hope. 🙂

[moonflower]

10 hours ago, katilac said:

I think that they do (or at least that they can). Follow-through can be hard. Making the right choice can be hard. Regret is easy. People beat themselves up over making the wrong choice all the time when they were perfectly capable of making the right choice. I'm such an idiot, I should have . . . gone to the gym, stayed after class for that extra credit activity, filled my tank with gas on the way home so I wouldn't have to do it in the morning and run late, etc etc. 

 

 

I can not eat the extra cookie, fill my gas tank, remember milk at the store, turn in paperwork on time, finish doing the dishes all the way, put up the soap when I'm done, etc.

When I fail to do these things, it is not because I'd prefer to do the wrong thing and then castigate myself for it later, or have others be disappointed in me or angry, or suffer the natural consequence (late fee for car payment, gain 5 lb., have to go back out for milk, clean up soap the kids spill b/c I left it down, etc.) Maybe there are people who prefer this but there are also people who don't.  I spent a lot of life believing other people when they told me that I just didn't care enough about others to be considerate, that I was too lazy to finish a task, that I was too lazy to file paperwork on time, that I clearly just cared about some things and not others and that's why I was forgetful.

It all sounds so familiar here.

[moonflower]

And if for you doing those things would be an active choice, it makes sense that you'd view them that way in someone else.  

[SKL]

Usually, when I make a choice I know is not ideal, I'm telling myself "I'll do the right thing next time."  Then this is repeated any number of times.

Eventually we need to do the right thing *this* time, and kids as well as adults need to understand that.

Learning to prioritize is like anything else - we learn through trial and error.  Sometimes kids do call their parents' bluff, and we as parents shouldn't deprive them of the learning opportunity this presents.

And now I really must "just do it" on some client work ....

[PeachyDoodle]

34 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

I can not eat the extra cookie, fill my gas tank, remember milk at the store, turn in paperwork on time, finish doing the dishes all the way, put up the soap when I'm done, etc.

When I fail to do these things, it is not because I'd prefer to do the wrong thing and then castigate myself for it later, or have others be disappointed in me or angry, or suffer the natural consequence (late fee for car payment, gain 5 lb., have to go back out for milk, clean up soap the kids spill b/c I left it down, etc.) Maybe there are people who prefer this but there are also people who don't.  I spent a lot of life believing other people when they told me that I just didn't care enough about others to be considerate, that I was too lazy to finish a task, that I was too lazy to file paperwork on time, that I clearly just cared about some things and not others and that's why I was forgetful.

It all sounds so familiar here.

 

33 minutes ago, moonflower said:

And if for you doing those things would be an active choice, it makes sense that you'd view them that way in someone else.  

I don't understand. If you are capable of not eating the cookie, then how is it not an active choice to eat the cookie? I have binge eating disorder. I find it very difficult to say no to the cookie sometimes. But eating the cookie is still a choice I make. Owning that choice is what gives me the power to say no when I feel like saying yes but know that saying no is the right decision.

Everybody fails at making good choices sometimes. Sometimes circumstances happen that prevent us from doing the ideal thing. But then sometimes we make decisions that we know we will probably regret later (I don't want to stop for gas now, so I will just leave for work early tomorrow, even though I know I won't want to wake up early), and then, unsurprisingly, end up regretting them (ugh, I wish I'd stopped last night so I could sleep for 10 more minutes). But that's still a choice. Ultimately it doesn't matter if you get gas now or in the morning (unless you end up stranded on a dark highway, or oversleep and arrive late to work and get fired, or something). It's not a moral failing to NOT get gas now. But it is a choice you make and one you might regret at 6am. You can make a different choice next time, or you can make the same choice, but it doesn't do any good to beat yourself up and convince yourself that you are a horrible person who isn't capable of deciding to stop for gas on your way home. (Not saying *you* do that, but that tends to be where my dd goes, as I've said.)

I do want to point out for the record that my dd has no trouble finishing tasks, meeting deadlines, being considerate of others, etc. So that is emphatically not what I am talking about here, however much it might seem that way from my vague descriptions, and further colored by one's personal experiences. And she certainly has never been told that she is lazy or inconsiderate. 

[moonflower]

For me, what works better than telling myself I am choosing to make poor or inconsiderate choices and feeling guilty about it is realizing that I am likely to make these poor choices and setting up my life so that it is easier to make the right choices.

So, very specifically, with cookies: I don't buy them unless I'm willing to eat all of the cookies in the house.  I'm not like this with potato chips or beer or a zillion other things, but with cookies I've just realized I'm going to eat them when available. So I don't make them available.  When I thought of it as making a poor choice that I should be able, if I were just ungluttonous enough, to resist, I had much less success than when I recognized the nature of the behavior and set up my life to forestall it.

Or like for instance I am bad about putting another roll of TP on when I run out.  I run out, I tell myself, oh, need to go get a roll from the linen closet and take it to the bathroom!, I turn around and flush, I walk out of the bathroom, and I've forgotten completely about the TP.  This was my life for decades.  DH thought I was willfully leaving him without TP, because for him, forgetting to put on a new one would be an active choice.  He couldn't conceive of just forgetting about it between flushing and walking out the door.  So anyway, last year I realized my brain just didn't work quite right in that way, and I moved the replacement TP rolls into the bathroom.  Now I put on a new roll right then because it's right there and no one thinks I'm inconsiderate.

Did I magically become more considerate this year?  Did I just start making better choices?  No, I realized the actual motivation of the behavior (forgetfulness, inattention, whatever - not unkindness, inconsiderateness, laziness) and addressing the actual motivation of the behavior worked where addressing the not-actual motivation had failed for years.

[forty-two]

11 hours ago, katilac said:

I've never encountered the concept that forgiveness is only for sins. Certainly I know many secular people who both seek forgiveness from, and offer forgiveness to, other people. Perhaps God only forgives sins, but humans forgive all kinds of things.  That might be hard to understand from a religious perspective, but I assure you that human forgiveness can also have tremendous power. 

By "sin" I just mean "something morally wrong", not specifically a wrong against God (although my tradition does hold that all wrongs against fellow humans, against creation, against ourselves, etc., are also wrongs against God).  The point I was trying to make was that forgiveness is for wrongdoing; if there was no wrong, then there is nothing to forgive.   (And in fact people often are offended at the idea of either offering an apology or receiving forgiveness for that very reason: they don't believe what they did was wrong, and therefore they have no obligation to apologize and no need to receive forgiveness - because you only need to be forgiven if you did *wrong*.  No wrong, no forgiveness needed - or wanted.) 

I completely agree that human forgiveness has tremendous power.  "Forgive others as you have been forgiven."  Forgiveness is central to human relationships.  And so it can be very hard on people who feel they have done wrong, but the people they wronged, instead of forgiving, instead insist there is nothing to forgive in the first place.  It's well-meant - would it not be offensively wrong to forgive them when they did nothing wrong, did nothing that needs forgiveness?  But it denies them that tremendous power of human forgiveness. 

[PeachyDoodle]

 

18 minutes ago, moonflower said:

For me, what works better than telling myself I am choosing to make poor or inconsiderate choices and feeling guilty about it is realizing that I am likely to make these poor choices and setting up my life so that it is easier to make the right choices.

So, very specifically, with cookies: I don't buy them unless I'm willing to eat all of the cookies in the house.  I'm not like this with potato chips or beer or a zillion other things, but with cookies I've just realized I'm going to eat them when available. So I don't make them available.  When I thought of it as making a poor choice that I should be able, if I were just ungluttonous enough, to resist, I had much less success than when I recognized the nature of the behavior and set up my life to forestall it.

Or like for instance I am bad about putting another roll of TP on when I run out.  I run out, I tell myself, oh, need to go get a roll from the linen closet and take it to the bathroom!, I turn around and flush, I walk out of the bathroom, and I've forgotten completely about the TP.  This was my life for decades.  DH thought I was willfully leaving him without TP, because for him, forgetting to put on a new one would be an active choice.  He couldn't conceive of just forgetting about it between flushing and walking out the door.  So anyway, last year I realized my brain just didn't work quite right in that way, and I moved the replacement TP rolls into the bathroom.  Now I put on a new roll right then because it's right there and no one thinks I'm inconsiderate.

Did I magically become more considerate this year?  Did I just start making better choices?  No, I realized the actual motivation of the behavior (forgetfulness, inattention, whatever - not unkindness, inconsiderateness, laziness) and addressing the actual motivation of the behavior worked where addressing the not-actual motivation had failed for years.

Well, yeah. That's kind of the definition of maturity. Which is exactly what I'm getting at. You aren't INCAPABLE of putting the toilet paper on the roll. It wasn't as important to you as it was to your dh. Which is fine. It's not a moral failing to leave the TP off the roll. But it was important to him. So you set up a system to help yourself do the right thing when it wasn't something you were likely to do by nature, out of consideration for his preferences. I would say you DID become more considerate. You took to heart the fact that this felt inconsiderate to your dh and therefore made the effort to create a system to help you remember. Forgetting may not have been an active choice, but not taking measures to ensure you'd remember was.

I'm kind of surprised that anyone would think that just because a person seems to be naturally organized, etc. they don't also have to put systems in place to keep themselves on track. Isn't that what adulting is? I'm type A as they come; nobody would have ever pinned me with an EF deficit, not even as a little kid. But I have systems in place to help me make the right choices when I don't feel like it. That's kind of what organizing is. I also don't buy the cookies. I also keep the TP in the bathroom so I remember to change the roll. And yeah, sometimes I am lazy and set the new roll on the counter instead of putting it on the dispenser. 

[moonflower]

All I can say is that when I told myself the TP wasn't important to me, being considerate of other people wasn't important to me, etc., I was more likely to forget things or fail to do them thoroughly or on time.

When I realized, thanks to this forum, that maybe it wasn't an issue of consideration or relative importance, but a difference in the way my brain worked, it was easier to make the right changes.

When I thought it was just a matter of prioritizing the right thing, or having enough human kindness to think of other people, or etc., I didn't ever manage to consistently do the right thing, because I was trying to just increase my willpower.  Sometimes with enough negative coercion (that is, people getting really mad, or a serious financial cost, or something) I could temporarily do the right thing, but it wouldn't last and sometimes even that wasn't enough.

It also seems like a destructive and inefficient way to modify behavior, either externally or internally.  Understanding the source of behavior and setting myself up for success is more efficient and less destructive of self-image and relationships (and finances!) but it required no longer seeing the issue as one of motivation ("she just doesn't want it enough") or character ("she just isn't caring enough").

 

[PeachyDoodle]

1 hour ago, moonflower said:

All I can say is that when I told myself the TP wasn't important to me, being considerate of other people wasn't important to me, etc., I was more likely to forget things or fail to do them thoroughly or on time.

When I realized, thanks to this forum, that maybe it wasn't an issue of consideration or relative importance, but a difference in the way my brain worked, it was easier to make the right changes.

When I thought it was just a matter of prioritizing the right thing, or having enough human kindness to think of other people, or etc., I didn't ever manage to consistently do the right thing, because I was trying to just increase my willpower.  Sometimes with enough negative coercion (that is, people getting really mad, or a serious financial cost, or something) I could temporarily do the right thing, but it wouldn't last and sometimes even that wasn't enough.

It also seems like a destructive and inefficient way to modify behavior, either externally or internally.  Understanding the source of behavior and setting myself up for success is more efficient and less destructive of self-image and relationships (and finances!) but it required no longer seeing the issue as one of motivation ("she just doesn't want it enough") or character ("she just isn't caring enough").

 

I don't understand how this is substantially different from anything I've said in this thread.

[moonflower]

2 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

 

You aren't INCAPABLE of putting the toilet paper on the roll. It wasn't as important to you as it was to your dh. .. you set up a system to help yourself do the right thing when it wasn't something you were likely to do by nature, out of consideration for his preferences. I would say you DID become more considerate.

 

 

For me, it wasn't becoming more considerate. I acted in a more considerate way, but my motivation didn't change.  He doesn't care more than me about the TP - I was just as annoyed when I peed and there was no TP! - but for him remembering a new roll was easy, no effort.  It wasn't that before I didn't care about the TP and afterward I did care - it was that I figured out why I wasn't replacing the roll and was able to modify my behavior because of my new understanding.

What helped me realize this was someone said, look, you forget things at the grocery store, or forget to bring your debit card, or lose your glasses, right?  Those things don't inconvenience anyone but yourself, so it must not be lack of consideration for others or lack of normal motivation - driving 20 minutes back to the store to pay is a serious deterrent! - but some other issue.  Once I stopped telling myself I was just lazy or inconsiderate and could if I chose will myself to better behavior, I was able to see other ways to improve behavior that I couldn't see before because I assumed I was just normal but lazy, or normal but uncaring.

 

It would be like if you were dyslexic, maybe (I'm not so I hope I'm not saying something incorrect), and you just assumed that you had trouble reading because you weren't practicing enough or you weren't smart enough or you weren't focusing hard enough.  You'd probably still learn to read somewhat, be able to function sort of, but it would always be suboptimal until you realized there was something else going on and remediated/compensated for that something else instead of assuming you were just normal but lazy, or normal but not motivated enough, or normal but not smart enough.

[PeachyDoodle]

And I still don't see how this is fundamentally different from anything I've said. I think it's odd to think that other people find it "easy" to make good choices. Everybody has things that it's harder for them to remember/choose to do. Everybody has to either decide it's not important enough to bother with or figure out a way to help themselves do what needs to be done. 

It doesn't matter. My dd is fine, I am fine, and I expect in a month we will be right where I'd hoped we'd be yesterday. So thanks all for the input.

[SKL]

Somewhat off topic, but my kids do / fail to do a lot of little things due to not having a system / habit.  Just the other day I told one of them, "If you aren't doing this because you never remember, then you need to figure out a way to help yourself remember."  She agreed.  Of course she has not yet implemented this, LOL.

I could understand offering scaffolding up to a point etc etc.  But sometimes it is blaringly obvious what needs to be done, and the person is in fact making a choice to prioritize something else.  She wants to read her fun book rather than write notes for the open-note test.  Even though she knows she is unlikely to bring up her grade if she doesn't have notes.  Maybe she thinks she will write the notes later or she will suddenly gain several IQ points by next morning?  Either way, she is reading that fun book when she knows she should not be.  Similar analysis as to why she's not putting her dirty laundry in the bin after being reminded, etc etc.  Yes she probably has EF issues, but at some point, she is choosing not to comply.  (And the proof comes when you see how fast her room gets straightened up when she really does want something.)

[moonflower]

11 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

And I still don't see how this is fundamentally different from anything I've said. I think it's odd to think that other people find it "easy" to make good choices. Everybody has things that it's harder for them to remember/choose to do. Everybody has to either decide it's not important enough to bother with or figure out a way to help themselves do what needs to be done. 

It doesn't matter. My dd is fine, I am fine, and I expect in a month we will be right where I'd hoped we'd be yesterday. So thanks all for the input.

 

When you say "it wasn't as important to you" or "you DID become more considerate," you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that my motivation for the behavior changed - that is to say, I wasn't as motivated before I changed my behavior and with a change in motivation (it became more important to me, or I became more considerate) I was able to change the behavior.

That is very different from what I'm saying, that my motivation did NOT change.  I didn't suddenly want to remember the TP where I hadn't wanted to remember it before; I didn't suddenly care enough about DH's feelings about the TP (much less my feelings) where I hadn't before; I didn't magically change from an inconsiderate person to a considerate person.

 

 

[moonflower]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Somewhat off topic, but my kids do / fail to do a lot of little things due to not having a system / habit.  Just the other day I told one of them, "If you aren't doing this because you never remember, then you need to figure out a way to help yourself remember."  She agreed.  Of course she has not yet implemented this, LOL.

I could understand offering scaffolding up to a point etc etc.  But sometimes it is blaringly obvious what needs to be done, and the person is in fact making a choice to prioritize something else.  She wants to read her fun book rather than write notes for the open-note test.  Even though she knows she is unlikely to bring up her grade if she doesn't have notes.  Maybe she thinks she will write the notes later or she will suddenly gain several IQ points by next morning?  Either way, she is reading that fun book when she knows she should not be.  Similar analysis as to why she's not putting her dirty laundry in the bin after being reminded, etc etc.  Yes she probably has EF issues, but at some point, she is choosing not to comply.  (And the proof comes when you see how fast her room gets straightened up when she really does want something.)

 

Given a lot of motivation I could always do things; either a lot of negative motivation or a lot of positive motivation would provide enough impetus to change my behavior, sure.  The challenge was changing behavior with a normal amount of outside motivation so that I didn't need to make people super angry or have a super-reward motivating the behavior I wanted.

i learned to manage this for myself in school in a lot of ways - I graduated with an IB Diploma in the top 1% of my class, got straight As, run (with DH) a very successful small business, have 7 kids who are fed and bathed regularly 🙂

But a lot of it has always been harder than it needed to be and I had an unnecessarily negative self-image because I thought I was lazy or lacked consideration of others.

The best things for me have been when I was given a scaffold that helped me manage - in 7th grade we were all given planners and instructed to write down everything.  I took this quite literally and it enabled me to get my work done largely on time for the next 6 years, where before I'd just forgotten everything constantly.

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 hours ago, moonflower said:

For me, what works better than telling myself I am choosing to make poor or inconsiderate choices and feeling guilty about it is realizing that I am likely to make these poor choices and setting up my life so that it is easier to make the right choices.

So, very specifically, with cookies: I don't buy them unless I'm willing to eat all of the cookies in the house.  I'm not like this with potato chips or beer or a zillion other things, but with cookies I've just realized I'm going to eat them when available. So I don't make them available.  When I thought of it as making a poor choice that I should be able, if I were just ungluttonous enough, to resist, I had much less success than when I recognized the nature of the behavior and set up my life to forestall it.

Or like for instance I am bad about putting another roll of TP on when I run out.  I run out, I tell myself, oh, need to go get a roll from the linen closet and take it to the bathroom!, I turn around and flush, I walk out of the bathroom, and I've forgotten completely about the TP.  This was my life for decades.  DH thought I was willfully leaving him without TP, because for him, forgetting to put on a new one would be an active choice.  He couldn't conceive of just forgetting about it between flushing and walking out the door.  So anyway, last year I realized my brain just didn't work quite right in that way, and I moved the replacement TP rolls into the bathroom.  Now I put on a new roll right then because it's right there and no one thinks I'm inconsiderate.

Did I magically become more considerate this year?  Did I just start making better choices?  No, I realized the actual motivation of the behavior (forgetfulness, inattention, whatever - not unkindness, inconsiderateness, laziness) and addressing the actual motivation of the behavior worked where addressing the not-actual motivation had failed for years.

You provided scaffolding for yourself. This is what many of us are advising the OP to do for her daughter. 

[Tanaqui]

9 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

And I still don't see how this is fundamentally different from anything I've said. I think it's odd to think that other people find it "easy" to make good choices. Everybody has things that it's harder for them to remember/choose to do. Everybody has to either decide it's not important enough to bother with or figure out a way to help themselves do what needs to be done. 

It doesn't matter. My dd is fine, I am fine, and I expect in a month we will be right where I'd hoped we'd be yesterday. So thanks all for the input.

 

The difference is that you want to impose a consequence for your daughter failing to do whatever-it-is.

Everybody posting here saying "This seems familiar, this sounds like me" - do you think our parents didn't try "setting boundaries"? Do you think they didn't try restricting privileges based on what we had done or not done?

Of course they did! But it didn't work.

[Lecka]

With my oldest, he does have executive functioning issues, but with receiving a lot of help from me over the years, he was passive about some things and felt like some things he could sit back and I would take over.  This is never a dynamic I wanted to have or ever intended.  

But yet I have had this dynamic.  

Especially if it’s something that *I want for him.*  There are things like this.

I am surprised nobody else’s kids seem to have had ownership issues with a loving, involved parent who just wants to help and be involved — but guess what, it happens!  

At this point my son is both very willing to receive some kinds of help, and also proud enough on some things that he would rather mess up sometimes than have me more involved. 

If in one month a child gets their act together — as seems to be expected here based on being 1-2 days in and knowing the child — that is just not a pattern of a child who needs more parental help and guidance, to me. 

Especially when it seems like the child suspected mom might give in, or wondered if mom might give in, or just wondered what would happen.  And the world didn’t fall apart, her mom didn’t flip out!!!!!!!!  Those are good things for her to know about her mom!

[PeterPan]

On May 17, 2019 at 7:12 AM, PeachyDoodle said:

It may very well be a maturity issue,

It's easy to underestimate the social delay, just the overall fuzz delay, that goes with ADHD. 

Fwiw, it seems like maybe the thing/privilege is more important to you than it is to her. I also don't think a month changes anything. And since it's more important to you than her, you're the one saying well maybe we could get it done in a month. Personally, I'd just say a year and move on. That allows time for the change to be permanent and shows it doesn't have power over you. 

On May 17, 2019 at 12:21 AM, SereneHome said:

I have NO external  currency.  None!  I have examples after examples when A or B or C were offered to me if I only did X and I WANTED A or B or C so badly and yet.....it just didn't motivate me enough.

I wanted to pull this down for emphasis. There's a lot of study on ADHD and motivation. Not that Serene is saying she's ADHD, but op seems to be hinting it at for PD. So it's really hard to tear things apart and say well it's intrinsic to the kid or it's the disability. It just IS. But it's actually BOTH and they're woven together in the brain structures. That's why you really have to step back and say 

-it wasn't important to me

-I can wait till you're really ready.

Here's the thing. Say this is a phone (just a random guess), the rushing at the first step just causes problems with the next. Then you're going to have MORE problems in a month because she wasn't really ready to do the NEXT steps required, like self-monitoring, care, whatever the item/privilege takes. So then you have even MORE hassles, more fights. It's just not necessary. Wait a year and come back to it. That's an actual consequence and it gives time for the maturity and learning to happen. And personally I wouldn't make a big deal of it. Just oh I think we're not ready, let's wait a year, and move on, drop it. 

Social Behavior Mapping is something you can google, but this doesn't sound like something she was ready to improve even with a motivator, meaning that's probably not a helpful too. I'd just let it drop and give her more bloom time.

[BlsdMama]

On 5/16/2019 at 11:37 AM, PeachyDoodle said:

She's 14 in two weeks.

Yes, we have had conversations of this sort many times. She knows that her response to correction isn't helpful and just makes her even more miserable. I think it is a matter of maturity, which is one reason why I said that at a certain point she has to work it out for herself. I think my tendency at that age was more to turn the feelings outward and get defensive and blame everybody else for what really was my fault. This reaction is similar, just opposite; it's still a form of self-pity. It's hard for me to deal with though because it makes me second-guess my decision. I don't want her to feel like she's a horrible person over something that really has no moral implications. I have told her this (that her choice does not make her a good/bad person), but it still has consequences. 

The consequence in this case is non-negotiable, as much as I hate it. We have given her a month to work on her choices, after which we will revisit the issue.

Two thoughts -

1. Is there a way to baby-step getting to the desired goal?  Often this is the way to achieve successful resolution and encouragment.
2. This is just a sidenote: Be wary of allowing verbal self-abuse (ex. "I'm so stupid, why can't I ever do anything right?" etc) because first, it's a lie and we don't allow lying in our house, because second, some kids learn it as a way of manipulation to be soothed that no, they're really just fine, and third, we water what we want to grow and we starve what we want to die.  We don't allow them to say things like this about themselves- it waters seeds.

[SereneHome]

9 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Two thoughts -

1. Is there a way to baby-step getting to the desired goal?  Often this is the way to achieve successful resolution and encouragment.
2. This is just a sidenote: Be wary of allowing verbal self-abuse (ex. "I'm so stupid, why can't I ever do anything right?" etc) because first, it's a lie and we don't allow lying in our house, because second, some kids learn it as a way of manipulation to be soothed that no, they're really just fine, and third, we water what we want to grow and we starve what we want to die.  We don't allow them to say things like this about themselves- it waters seeds. 

I love that!!!!!!

[dirty ethel rackham]

12 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Two thoughts -

1. Is there a way to baby-step getting to the desired goal?  Often this is the way to achieve successful resolution and encouragment.
2. This is just a sidenote: Be wary of allowing verbal self-abuse (ex. "I'm so stupid, why can't I ever do anything right?" etc) because first, it's a lie and we don't allow lying in our house, because second, some kids learn it as a way of manipulation to be soothed that no, they're really just fine, and third, we water what we want to grow and we starve what we want to die.  We don't allow them to say things like this about themselves- it waters seeds.

How do you not allow it?  Do you just say you don't allow it and then enforce it not being said out loud?  Forbidding this just makes it go on underground.  They may be obedient on the outside, but they are still ripping themselves a new one on the inside.  BTDT.  Actually still doing that.  Because nobody cared to get to the root of the destructive though patterns.  So, as an adult, I have been fighting them all my life ... they are so deeply ingrained that it will be my forever battle.  I guess wanting to hear something positive from my parents instead of being criticized for all the ways that I deserved the bullying was "manipulation."  And you think I wanted to grow a lifetime of self-esteem issues?  You think I wouldn't have given my eye teeth to not feel worthless?  

[maize]

18 minutes ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

How do you not allow it?  Do you just say you don't allow it and then enforce it not being said out loud?  Forbidding this just makes it go on underground.  They may be obedient on the outside, but they are still ripping themselves a new one on the inside.  BTDT.  Actually still doing that.  Because nobody cared to get to the root of the destructive though patterns.  So, as an adult, I have been fighting them all my life ... they are so deeply ingrained that it will be my forever battle.  I guess wanting to hear something positive from my parents instead of being criticized for all the ways that I deserved the bullying was "manipulation."  And you think I wanted to grow a lifetime of self-esteem issues?  You think I wouldn't have given my eye teeth to not feel worthless?  

Do you have thoughts on how to help someone not feel worthless?

My in-laws thought that praise was the way to help kids develop self esteem. They were super positive and encouraging. But that negative voice inside the head? My husband had no trouble at all developing one.

I'm the one who grew up with critical parents but that never internalized to self criticism. I think in our cases nature played a bigger role than nurture.

[LMD]

I think PeachyDoodle knows her kid and loves her more than randoms on an internet forum who are taking this waaaaaaay to personally.

[Tanaqui]

I don't think anybody here has suggested that she doesn't love her kid. But parents don't always know what's going on when kids are annoying. Heck, sometimes we don't know what's going on with ourselves! I really think she should consider the possibility that she is misreading the situation, and has been for a while. Lots of people's parents do that and did that, with the best of intentions and all the love in the world.

[SanDiegoMom]

On 5/17/2019 at 4:46 PM, moonflower said:

 

Given a lot of motivation I could always do things; either a lot of negative motivation or a lot of positive motivation would provide enough impetus to change my behavior, sure.  The challenge was changing behavior with a normal amount of outside motivation so that I didn't need to make people super angry or have a super-reward motivating the behavior I wanted.

 

There is a youtuber out there who put out a series of videos called “How to Adhd” and one of them was about how to break through the wall of awful when trying to do what seemed like a simple task. (In the video it was a child getting their binder out of the backpack).  The method that kids with adhd commonly use to overcome the wall is “hulk-smashing”. - generating either enough anger at others or at themselves to be able to get the task done.  My dd definitely used the first method ALL the time (ask me how I know!) and now my son, while I don’t necessarily think he has adhd, uses the second one. My other kid just happily does tasks and chores normally - it’s SO strange to see. So now I work a lot more with scaffolding with my son. Otherwise he gets stuck in the self- flagellation mode. 

We never reward behavior (or really much of anything) with the younger kids. It just created too many problems with the oldest.   Well, we pay for chores but that’s about it. 

One other thing that helps me now is visualization - I read recently about procrastination prioritizing one’s present self over one’s future self, and by imagining myself in the future I am less willing to shift the burden of whatever I put off to my future self. I don’t know if that works with adhd, but it helps me get over my issues of not wanting to make doctor appts, make phone calls, etc. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

14 hours ago, maize said:

Do you have thoughts on how to help someone not feel worthless?

My in-laws thought that praise was the way to help kids develop self esteem. They were super positive and encouraging. But that negative voice inside the head? My husband had no trouble at all developing one.

I'm the one who grew up with critical parents but that never internalized to self criticism. I think in our cases nature played a bigger role than nurture.

It is tough to know the answer to that.  My parents minimized my feelings and the trauma that constant bullying was doing to me and then telling me that I was too sensitive or telling me how I had to change to make it stop.  That became internalized as "I deserved to be treated badly.  I am worthless."   By 4th grade, I simply stopped telling anyone anything, putting on the happy face for the world while bleeding inside. I would have benefited from talking to a therapist and, perhaps, having some sessions with my parents to be able to express how badly I was hurting and for us to learn knew ways of communicating.  But therapy just wasn't done back then.    

I think therapy can help create new ways of self-talk and some sessions with the parents to help them learn how to support positive self-talk.  Not forbidding it or propping up from outside, but short-circuiting the negative loop before it gets too ingrained.  Due to my upbringing,  I wanted to be the soft place to land for my kids because I didn't have that growing up ... I lived with the constant need to hide anything negative due to intense shame (I was a bedwetter until I was 9 and public shaming was the recommended technique for dealing with it, thus shame being thoroughly ingrained.) I probably swung the other way with my children - propping them up too much, which did lead to some enhancing of perfectionistic tendencies.   I did recognize later that they needed to be able to express their feelings and a couple did need a little bit of counseling in their early teens to help them learn better thought patterns.  One thing that a therapist taught me was to ask if what they were saying (or what I was saying to myself) was a realistic interpretation of the situation.  And "what about <something positive in the situation>? That there was more than one way of looking at things.  And I had to learn to have grace for mistakes, theirs and my own and treat them as learning experiences, not tragedies.  

My battles are ongoing.  I hope my kids have moved past it.  They at least have the example of getting help when things are too overwhelming and they can recognize bad though patterns in others as well as themselves.  Therapy isn't this big, scary, shameful thing.  

(Of course, none of this applies to my kid with a serious mental illness ... something that parenting differently wouldn't have fixed.)

[LMD]

15 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

I don't think anybody here has suggested that she doesn't love her kid. But parents don't always know what's going on when kids are annoying. Heck, sometimes we don't know what's going on with ourselves! I really think she should consider the possibility that she is misreading the situation, and has been for a while. Lots of people's parents do that and did that, with the best of intentions and all the love in the world.

 

I don't disagree with this Tanaqui, and I'm sure PeachyDoodle was reading and thinking. Some posts have definitely been catastrophising imo, insinuating that her daughter will be scarred with low self esteem for life and that's Peachy's fault for not agreeing with people on the internet 100% about their interpretation of her own daughter. 

With all the love and best intentions and great advice in the world, I will never be a perfect parent and my child will inevitably have their own battles. That's life. The love and best intentions part means that we struggle through those battles together.

[katilac]

18 hours ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

How do you not allow it?  Do you just say you don't allow it and then enforce it not being said out loud?  Forbidding this just makes it go on underground.  They may be obedient on the outside, but they are still ripping themselves a new one on the inside.  BTDT.  Actually still doing that.  Because nobody cared to get to the root of the destructive though patterns.  So, as an adult, I have been fighting them all my life ... they are so deeply ingrained that it will be my forever battle.  I guess wanting to hear something positive from my parents instead of being criticized for all the ways that I deserved the bullying was "manipulation."  And you think I wanted to grow a lifetime of self-esteem issues?  You think I wouldn't have given my eye teeth to not feel worthless?  

Bolding by me. I read your next post also, and I think it's tough to compare situations. If your parents are an active part of making you feel worthless, of course simply forbidding you to say it out loud isn't going to accomplish anything. 

For kids without bullying or other serious issues, who have supportive parents who do indeed say positive things to them, forbidding them to verbally call themselves stupid can be helpful. They often say it because they heard someone else say it, either in real life or on television.  Not allowing it stops a negative habit before it becomes ingrained. 

Our version was, We don't call anyone stupid in this house, and that includes yourself. I think any version is not only fine but a big plus when in an overall nurturing, positive environment.

[dirty ethel rackham]

21 minutes ago, katilac said:

Bolding by me. I read your next post also, and I think it's tough to compare situations. If your parents are an active part of making you feel worthless, of course simply forbidding you to say it out loud isn't going to accomplish anything. 

For kids without bullying or other serious issues, who have supportive parents who do indeed say positive things to them, forbidding them to verbally call themselves stupid can be helpful. They often say it because they heard someone else say it, either in real life or on television.  Not allowing it stops a negative habit before it becomes ingrained. 

Our version was, We don't call anyone stupid in this house, and that includes yourself. I think any version is not only fine but a big plus when in an overall nurturing, positive environment.

This is true, but it is helpful to dig first to make sure there isn't something underlying this negative self-talk.  My parents truly had no idea how bad the bullying was - they thought it was just kids being kids and I needed a tougher skin.  They didn't realize that they were minimizing some serious stuff.  Kids don't always share what is going on.  I didn't know that one of my kids was being bullied (yes, a homeschooled kid who spent very little time outside of my presence was bullied.)