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bethben

Neurofeedback

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Has anyone done this with their child or themselves?  I'm trying to figure out if it's a sham or real science.  It's to try to help my daughter who has anger issues, defiant issues, possible RAD, and ADHD.  I'm not convinced she will choose to follow a therapist's recommendations with things to try at home to regulate her anger.

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I think PeterPan did it with at least one of her kids.  I've known some people who did it in real life.  It wasn't a sham exactly but also not really effective.  Mightier might be a way to go?  https://mightier.com/

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I learned this in high school. The most positive application I saw for it was thirty years ago with a hemophiliac acquaintance who learned how to focus on lowering his body temperature to slow a bleed. It was stopgap, not a cure. My guess is that just acting like he was colder - slower respiration, stillness - produced the actual result of slowed circulation, not that he significantly reduced internal temperature, but that he focused on slowing body systems overall. 

Not a completely successful defense, just.... something. I honestly think the mindfulness it requires is calming all by itself, and reduced anxiety generally helps about anything. I would guess that the old neurofeedback techniques have modern names - just my guess. 

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I think it might help a parent deal with stress over children.

I doubt it would work unless someone were personally motivated to put it into practice.

From what I’ve read it isn’t especially helpful for ADHD. 

It might be helpful for anger

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I believe some friends used it for trauma with a child adopted from foster care, and it was very helpful. 

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I have not used it but have heard good things about it. The provider may need to understand attachment and trauma. The protocol is different than f or ADHD etc.

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Btw I suggest looking up studies to help figure out what’s known about it helping your dd s issues.  For example using google scholar.  

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As far as the computerized systems, yes we did it, I think Zengar. Utterly worthless from what I can tell and an excuse for not doing real therapy. And since it's computerized, the person pushing the button go has ZERO CLUE what it's doing or why. The theory was great, and there are some systems that are less passive and might even do something. Even then, they're scary. Like they'll claim they're doing a scan and targeting specific brain waves.

But to relate any of that to the op's issues, how do they connect?? I don't see it. I must be missing it and op must have some research or something. That's what I'd be looking for. I can see the logic when you say an attention issue is due to certain types of brain waves and you're trying to increase them. But in reality it was forcing an issue that starts with chemicals. It wore out my severely ADHD kid and aggravated her APD. (you process/discriminate sound through fuzz, which basically wore her out and did nothing good for her) For my ds with ASD/aggression/anything else you want to list it did crap nothing. Actually scratch that, it made him wake up slower and more unhappy in the mornings, which isn't exactly what I'd call a good side effect. I finally realized having idiots who have no clue what they're doing messing with your kid's brain is DUMB. My dd begged to stop and we stopped.

On May 13, 2019 at 10:30 AM, bethben said:

I'm not convinced she will choose to follow a therapist's recommendations with things to try at home to regulate her anger.

if she has a chemical problem, she's not likely to be ABLE to do the therapist's recommendations until the physical problems are dealt with. It's not like we can cognitive out everything. Sometimes our bodies are distinctly uncooperative. Sometimes there's an order, like get the body calm (removing food allergens, bringing in psychotropics or biomedical), THEN doing the CBT and social thinking and all that.

Where is she with getting off the dairy? You had said she was eating a ton and then tested as reacting to it, right? Has removing dairy improved anything or is she non-compliant on that? My ds is basically unworkable on dairy. He can have tiny amounts (butter on a pancake), but if he actually drinks milk I can expect a really BAD DAY.

Edited by PeterPan
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Are you on any Internet forums for parents of kids with attachment and trauma issues? That would be the place to ask for recommendations so that you get a practitioner that will do the right protocols for the types of problems your child may have. I used to be part of the attach-china yahoo group, where some people there had good neurofeedback results. Our kids have mostly grown up, so the group is not very active now. But you could give it a try. There used to be some of the wisest parents in the world on there.

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9 hours ago, Pen said:

I think it might help a parent deal with stress over children.

I doubt it would work unless someone were personally motivated to put it into practice.

From what I’ve read it isn’t especially helpful for ADHD. 

It might be helpful for anger

 

This. The client has to be willing to take the info from the feedback and work with it.

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8 hours ago, Pronghorn said:

good neurofeedback

You'd want to know exactly what system they were using. Then you'd need to account for the "I paid a lot of money for this so I'm raving about it" syndrome stuff. Then see if there's any actual research or published data saying what they're claiming. When it sounds too good to be true with therapy, it usually is.

5 hours ago, Liz CA said:

The client has to be willing to take the info from the feedback and work with it.

You must be working with a different system. Some are totally passive, and others are sustained attention exercises basically. There is no feedback for them to put into place. I've heard there are other types (active, with a person not a computer), but we could be talking about lots of different things here.

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The other thing op has to watch for is this is nearing the end of the line for your dc's participation in therapies. It's not like they're little and can be compelled or are limitlessly enthusiastic. If this is the LAST THERAPY your dc is willing to do, is it the one you MOST WANT? It's something to think through. My dd hit that stage where she was like nope, we've tried enough, I'm done. And maybe your dc is not there quite yet, but it is coming. You have to choose very carefully. Your dc's tolerance for things that don't work out may decrease, especially if she's also on the spectrum. There could be a lot of digging in there at some point. 

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9 hours ago, Liz CA said:

 

This. The client has to be willing to take the info from the feedback and work with it.

I asked a couple of our doctors about neurofeedback for dd and got this answer. If the dc is not motivated to change things,  it isn't going to happen just by virtue of the technology.

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Btw, I think it is a real thing— just not sure it would work well in your circumstances.

Have you looked into EMDR?

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I have a sibling who is an attachment therapist who really believes in it.  I haven't used it myself.

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4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You'd want to know exactly what system they were using. Then you'd need to account for the "I paid a lot of money for this so I'm raving about it" syndrome stuff. Then see if there's any actual research or published data saying what they're claiming. When it sounds too good to be true with therapy, it usually is.

You must be working with a different system. Some are totally passive, and others are sustained attention exercises basically. There is no feedback for them to put into place. I've heard there are other types (active, with a person not a computer), but we could be talking about lots of different things here.

 

23 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

I asked a couple of our doctors about neurofeedback for dd and got this answer. If the dc is not motivated to change things,  it isn't going to happen just by virtue of the technology.

 

I am most familiar with the brain scan technology of neurofeedback that allows clients to receive feedback from fMRI or EEG and learn how to change certain brainwave patterns. There is a method where it is a more passive approach with computerized feedback, so this may be a less client-involved modality.

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http://www.eegspectrum.com/applications/attachment-disorder/4yomale/

I didn’t see any studies related to attachment , but might have missed finding them.  There are some promising case studies as the above one even with someone perhaps too young to be actively wanting to change— though perhaps also not the opposite. However, it was from a site essentially selling Neurofeedback services 

Edited by Pen

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1 hour ago, Katy said:

I have a sibling who is an attachment therapist who really believes in it.  I haven't used it myself.

 

Do you know any more specifics?  The type used? Length of treatment ? Anything?

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Another idea is equine therapy if you have it in your area. Working with horses can be therapeutic for some.

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On 5/14/2019 at 1:42 PM, Terabith said:

I think PeterPan did it with at least one of her kids.  I've known some people who did it in real life.  It wasn't a sham exactly but also not really effective.  Mightier might be a way to go?  https://mightier.com/

 

This is very interesting. The breathing is basically vagal toning. Very cool.

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5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Do you know any more specifics?  The type used? Length of treatment ? Anything?

 

I don't know any specifics.

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