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gingersmom

School shooting in Colorado!

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We live in an open carry state.  (I won't even get into the racial issues of how this is enforced.)  But the other day at the grocery store, we saw a man with a gun in his pocket, at eye level with the toddler who was with him.  This wasn't a holster.  It was just loose, in his pocket.  It could have fallen out at any moment.  My husband (former Air Force) was very tempted to reach over and grab it and pull it out to try to get the man to realize how quickly and easily his toddler could get it.  The idiocy and complacency is just mind boggling to me.  

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6 hours ago, Terabith said:

We live in an open carry state.  (I won't even get into the racial issues of how this is enforced.)  But the other day at the grocery store, we saw a man with a gun in his pocket, at eye level with the toddler who was with him.  This wasn't a holster.  It was just loose, in his pocket.  It could have fallen out at any moment.  My husband (former Air Force) was very tempted to reach over and grab it and pull it out to try to get the man to realize how quickly and easily his toddler could get it.  The idiocy and complacency is just mind boggling to me.  

 

My hubby was career Navy (retired now). There are *really* strict regulations on the bases / boats / ships re: firearms -  when they can be carried, by whom, how, how they are stored - and *really* strict penalties if those regulations aren't followed. It's the same in the Army (& I'm assuming for the other services). It just boggles my mind that professional soldiers and military leaders recognize the dangers of firearms & proactively ensure/enforce the safety of all, yet in everyday society, people assume every slack-jawed idiot should have automatic access to 24/7/365 unrestricted carry. 

(And, for the record, I don't think our school shooting problem is just a gun-control issue. I think our national obsession with violence and ego and the belief that the best way to gain respect is by establishing yourself, usually through force, as the strong one. But that's a whole other post.)

Edited by Happy2BaMom
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Did anyone mention already that FIVE MONTHS ago an anonymous parent wrote a letter to the district advising this might happen?  that the shooter was a known bully who would make these types of threats against students while whispering in their ears?  the school filed a lawsuit to uncover who the parent was - because the school was offended anyone would disparage one of their precious students?

these things rarely happen in a vacuum - the flags were there, and pointed out to those who could do something.  they stuck their heads in the sand.

I think this is a mental health problem, and so rarely nothing is done, even when the signs are reported. 

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I did see the thing about the letter. The thing is... there  were a ton of accusations in that letter. Have any of the others been shown to be true? Did students smear feces on the walls? Was the board involved in shady dealings in foreign nations? And it's not like that letter is clear about a specific threat. It's just all over the place. "This school is a pressure cooker and students bully each other" is something that could be said of SO MANY American public schools.

It's pathetic that they filed a lawsuit though. 

People with mental health issues who don't have such ready access to guns don't go on shooting sprees. 

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While I am grateful that the two young men in the most recent shootings acted to save lives, it sickens and saddens me to realize that we are asking our children to sacrifice their lives so we don’t have to fix the very obvious problems in our society.

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On 5/10/2019 at 9:03 PM, TCB said:

Thanks Stacia for all the information above. I know this isn't the right board to discuss the politics of it. I just wondered if there were people reading this thread who might be against gun control laws and who could say if they too agree that shooting in schools aren't more common here in the USA than other countries. I was so surprised to hear him say it. It's very difficult to ask around here where I live because almost everyone here is a strong supporter of gun rights, and to be honest nobody here even says anything about these shootings at all. They just seem to ignore them. I don't think I have heard anyone start a conversation about one when it's happened or say how dreadful it is unless I say that first and then they may agree that it is sad. But that is about as far as it goes.

I don’t think most people who are against gun control would dispute the higher rate of shootings in the US.  I think people against gun control just don’t see the guns as the issue. They see it as a societal or mental health issue. Of course, they care. They just do not agree with the solution being offered.

There are violence problems in other countries that are expressed with knives and acid attacks. We do not seem to hear about those here in this country in the way our shootings are widely publicized in other countries.  I hear people on these boards from other countries express fear about coming to the US because of the shootings, but my dd had the opportunity to go to the UK this summer and we chose to have her do something different, in part because of fear about the knifing and acid attacks that are occurring there. I haven’t kept up with all of this, but I believe the UK has started enacting knife bans. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/27/knife-crime-britain-wales-national-emergency-record-stabbing-homicides/3470942002/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/5d38c003-c54a-4513-a369-f9eae0d52f91

 

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3 hours ago, wapiti said:

 

There is a long, complex backstory to that letter, little to none of which will come out in the press.  None of that was particularly connected with the defendants.  I am a parent at this school and nothing in that letter resembles our experience.

So sorry you have had to experience this. Must be a very difficult time.

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4 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

I don’t think most people who are against gun control would dispute the higher rate of shootings in the US.  I think people against gun control just don’t see the guns as the issue. They see it as a societal or mental health issue. Of course, they care. They just do not agree with the solution being offered.

There are violence problems in other countries that are expressed with knives and acid attacks. We do not seem to hear about those here in this country in the way our shootings are widely publicized in other countries.  I hear people on these boards from other countries express fear about coming to the US because of the shootings, but my dd had the opportunity to go to the UK this summer and we chose to have her do something different, in part because of fear about the knifing and acid attacks that are occurring there. I haven’t kept up with all of this, but I believe the UK has started enacting knife bans. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/27/knife-crime-britain-wales-national-emergency-record-stabbing-homicides/3470942002/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/5d38c003-c54a-4513-a369-f9eae0d52f91

 

Sorry did not mean to imply that they don't care, just that they don't say anything about it, which seems strange to me as it seems usual to comment or acknowledge in some way when tragic things happen, especially when it involves the deaths of children. Not sure why they don't. 

 

ETA - The perception of these things is always very interesting. I just looked up the homicide rates ( per 100,000 ) and the homicide rate in the US is quite a bit higher than in the UK.

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On 5/9/2019 at 10:34 PM, Mbelle said:

My dd is a dual citizen us/aus, so she could at least teach there fairly easily.  However, my SIL is a teacher and from the sounds of it, the govt schools really have a lot of the exact same issues as ours, but at least no mass shootings!  Teaching is stressful!  

I'm just piggybacking off your mention of Australia @Mbelle

I'm in Australia. In my extended family we have six teachers, spanning primary, secondary, state and private schools. This experience spans many, many decades and many, many different socioeconomic areas of our large city. 

Over all this time and all this experience, the only true risk I can remember anyone talking about was when a scared horse was loose in school grounds, resulting in a lockdown but no injuries to anyone.

No guns. No fear.

Why is the culture here so different? 

As you mentioned, I'm sure there are issues in lots of schools, but fear about just being there isn't one of them.

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Denver area seems to be unusually high in these events.  Besides copycatting, I wonder if there are other issues like high lead levels or something that might cause people to behave more aggressively 

even the phone call -> letter about issues at school  and response of lawsuit (instead of investigating?) seem a bit off.

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4 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

I'm just piggybacking off your mention of Australia @Mbelle

I'm in Australia. In my extended family we have six teachers, spanning primary, secondary, state and private schools. This experience spans many, many decades and many, many different socioeconomic areas of our large city. 

Over all this time and all this experience, the only true risk I can remember anyone talking about was when a scared horse was loose in school grounds, resulting in a lockdown but no injuries to anyone.

No guns. No fear.

Why is the culture here so different? 

As you mentioned, I'm sure there are issues in lots of schools, but fear about just being there isn't one of them.

 

I have a similar extended family make up.

One family member who teaches experienced a hoax bomb call.

Also a fire in the school.

That's it for fear.

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5 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

I'm just piggybacking off your mention of Australia @Mbelle

I'm in Australia. In my extended family we have six teachers, spanning primary, secondary, state and private schools. This experience spans many, many decades and many, many different socioeconomic areas of our large city. 

Over all this time and all this experience, the only true risk I can remember anyone talking about was when a scared horse was loose in school grounds, resulting in a lockdown but no injuries to anyone.

No guns. No fear.

Why is the culture here so different? 

As you mentioned, I'm sure there are issues in lots of schools, but fear about just being there isn't one of them.

I'm not up on all the politics and govt, but we do sometimes talk about cultural differences in our family.  

Some differences..John Howard, a heavy conservaitve, railroaded the gun laws into existence in Australia.  In the US it is iiberals for the most part pushing for these laws.  Gun rights people trend to being conservative, so maybe it would be helpful if a heavyweight conservative took on this issue.  Liberals do also own guns but would prefer much more controls.  I think it did not happen so smoothly in Australia as it appears to be happening in NZ, there were obstacles and objections to the laws and with Howard powering through it got done.  The other difference is cultural and that is that it seems like Australians are more likely to follow the law once it is set even if they really are upset about it.  I could be way off with all of this and this is just armchair talk in our home.

I think in the US that the way to go is something similar to what happened with smoking.  In the 1970's everyone smoked by 1990 it was embarrassing and a social no no by and large.  Cigrarette's have never been banned.  I'm wondering if some social engineering will work?  

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Just now, Mbelle said:

I'm not up on all the politics and govt, but we do sometimes talk about cultural differences in our family.  

Some differences..John Howard, a heavy conservaitve, railroaded the gun laws into existence in Australia.  In the US it is iiberals for the most part pushing for these laws.  Gun rights people trend to being conservative, so maybe it would be helpful if a heavyweight conservative took on this issue.  Liberals do also own guns but would prefer much more controls.  I think it did not happen so smoothly in Australia as it appears to be happening in NZ, there were obstacles and objections to the laws and with Howard powering through it got done.  The other difference is cultural and that is that it seems like Australians are more likely to follow the law once it is set even if they really are upset about it.  I could be way off with all of this and this is just armchair talk in our home.

I think in the US that the way to go is something similar to what happened with smoking.  In the 1970's everyone smoked by 1990 it was embarrassing and a social no no by and large.  Cigrarette's have never been banned.  I'm wondering if some social engineering will work?  

 

I agree that it was lucky for us a Liberal PM was in power at the time of the Port Arthur Massacre.

Having a right wing PM push the gun laws cut off a lot of right wing unrest over the matter (though it's rising again...we are going to have another massacre here, gun rights advocates here are learning from the US, are getting more interest, more votes, more voice....it's when, not if.)

If a Labor PM had been in power then, it's less likely the laws would have gone through. Although - it's hard to describe the national mood after Port Arthur - there was national mourning and a widespread desperation to stop it ever happening again. There were earlier gun massacres, one near me, but Port Arthur had the most effect.

 

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8 hours ago, TCB said:

Sorry did not mean to imply that they don't care, just that they don't say anything about it, which seems strange to me as it seems usual to comment or acknowledge in some way when tragic things happen, especially when it involves the deaths of children. Not sure why they don't. 

 

ETA - The perception of these things is always very interesting. I just looked up the homicide rates ( per 100,000 ) and the homicide rate in the US is quite a bit higher than in the UK.

 

It's a freakonomics thing. The perception of risk (death by homicide) is much higher than the actual risk (death by car accident) but that doesn't mean there's no risk at all. Some people, of course, are at higher risk than others. When we moved to Bahrain, I had family ALL OVER my facebook feed telling us to be safe. I had to post the ACTUAL data showing that we were safer there and all over Western Europe than in the mainland U.S. Some still didn't believe it.

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The primary problem in the US is that, culturally, we care more about our individual rights than we do about the well being of other people. We are a self-centered society. There is no common good. The mindset has infected every area of our culture - including those who are supposed to be serving others (I am tired of police officers shooting black people because they are afraid for their lives - why are we hiring police officers that are afraid of black people?).

Why are we depending on children to stop shooters? Why? Because, culturally, we don't care about the lives of the children.

 

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13 hours ago, Mbelle said:

I'm not up on all the politics and govt, but we do sometimes talk about cultural differences in our family.  

Some differences..John Howard, a heavy conservaitve, railroaded the gun laws into existence in Australia.  In the US it is iiberals for the most part pushing for these laws.  Gun rights people trend to being conservative, so maybe it would be helpful if a heavyweight conservative took on this issue.  Liberals do also own guns but would prefer much more controls.  I think it did not happen so smoothly in Australia as it appears to be happening in NZ, there were obstacles and objections to the laws and with Howard powering through it got done.  The other difference is cultural and that is that it seems like Australians are more likely to follow the law once it is set even if they really are upset about it.  I could be way off with all of this and this is just armchair talk in our home.

I think in the US that the way to go is something similar to what happened with smoking.  In the 1970's everyone smoked by 1990 it was embarrassing and a social no no by and large.  Cigrarette's have never been banned.  I'm wondering if some social engineering will work?  

Not only that but also it’s an ongoing push pull process as new tech etc makes existing laws inadequate.  

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4 hours ago, TechWife said:

The primary problem in the US is that, culturally, we care more about our individual rights than we do about the well being of other people. We are a self-centered society.

 I think  currently we care more about gun rights than we do about the vulnerable in our society.  However individualistic societies are not inherently more self centered.  Individualism allows for more creativity and acceptance of differences than societies that adhere more closely and in some cases strictly to one group norm. Despite needing new gun laws, a more open and indivualistic society is far safer.

There is no common good.  

 I do agree it is easy to be pessimistic in the US right now, but honestly people are working for the common good all the time from grass roots organizaitions on up.  Some days it is hard to believe it though! There are plenty of nasty folks and organzations such as the NRA, but look at people who are working to solve this problem such as you and me.   I personally don't own any weapons, but this is the US and people are going to own weapons, but could they own only certain styles and certain amount?  Could there be more training and background checks? I think yes, but clearly we haven't reached a majority with that view ...yet.  What will it take to stop the mass shooters, because mass shootings themselves don't seem to be having any effect ?   We are a nation that argues outloud for everyone to see and read about, and that's not a bad thing although at times is can be annoying as heck, and sure hope we can come to a  reasonable solution very soon which doesn't involve bringing in even more guns and violence to the schools.  

The mindset has infected every area of our culture - including those who are supposed to be serving others (I am tired of police officers shooting black people because they are afraid for their lives - why are we hiring police officers that are afraid of black people?).

I'm not sure why we reach for guns as a first reaction to being scared of people .  I would like to see more of an approach of do the least harm necessary and really sometimes there is absolutely nothing scary going on when supposed perpatrators get shot.  It is ridiculous.

Why are we depending on children to stop shooters? Why? Because, culturally, we don't care about the lives of the children.

I'm also feeling uneasy about praising children as hero's instead of pointing out they are victims of  domestic terrorist murdered with guns.  Something is not right about that in a multifaceted way.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mbelle said:

I'm also feeling uneasy about praising children as hero's instead of pointing out they are victims of  domestic terrorist murdered with guns.  Something is not right about that in a multifaceted way.

 

Louder for the people in the back! These are children who deserve protection not heroes in waiting. I get that they've shown more courage than most Americans and politicians ever will but that's not their job and we shouldn't be asking it of them.

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One was formally charged with:
· One count of first-degree murder after deliberation
· One count of first-degree murder – extreme indifference
· One count of first-degree murder after deliberation
· Six counts of attempted first-degree murder after deliberation
· 25 counts of attempted first-degree murder after deliberation with extreme indifference
· One count of second-degree arson with damage totaling $100 or more
· One count of second-degree arson with damage totaling $100 or more
· One count of third-degree burglary
· One count of theft between $2500 and $5000
· One count of possession of a weapon on school grounds
· One count of criminal mischief between $1000 and $5000
· One count of criminal mischief $1000 and $5000
· One count of theft between $2500 and $5000
· One count of third-degree burglary
· One count of providing a handgun to a juvenile
· One count of interference with a school – impeding staff (misdemeanor)
· Reckless endangerment (misdemeanor)
· Violent crime causing death or serious bodily injury (sentence enhancer)
· Violent crime – used weapon (sentence enhancer)
 
 
The other faces the following charges, which include 43 felonies, three misdemeanors and two sentence enhancers:
· One count of first-degree murder after deliberation
· One count of first-degree murder – extreme indifference
· One count of first-degree murder after deliberation
· Six counts of attempted first-degree murder after deliberation
· 25 counts of attempted first-degree murder after deliberation with extreme indifference
· One count of second-degree arson with damage totaling $100 or more
· One count of second-degree arson with damage totaling $100 or more
· One count of third-degree burglary
· One count of theft between $2500 and $5000
· One count of possession of a weapon on school grounds
· One count of criminal mischief between $1000 and $5000
· One count of criminal mischief $1000 and $5000
· One count of theft between $2500 and $5000
· One count of third-degree burglary
· One count of possession of a handgun by a juvenile (misdemeanor)
· One count of interference with a school – impeding staff (misdemeanor)
· Reckless endangerment (misdemeanor)
· Violent crime causing death or serious bodily injury (sentence enhancer)
· Violent crime – used weapon (sentence enhancer)
 
The only difference between the two suspects' charges are related to a firearm. One is charged with providing a handgun to a juvenile and the other is charged with possession of a handgun by a juvenile.

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