Latin motivation

[Amp]

I've tried searching the forums but I'm not having much luck.  My oldest is finishing 6th grade and I had planned to start Latin with him this year but it didn't happen.  I really lack the motivation to start and consistently do it.  Advice?  Forum threads, Articles or podcasts that really motivated you to put forth the effort?  We have GSWL and that's what I would start with next year if we do it since I already own it.  Thanks.

[Miss Tick]

In order to make progress in a language you really have to do something in it every day. It doesn't have to be a lot, but it has to be something. In your position, if you really want to do Latin next year, I would spend time this summer planning it out so that it is super easy to do Latin. Maybe you get motivated by checklists, maybe you need variety in your study, whatever works for you. So go through GSWL and make a checklist (if that is helpful for you), maybe identify a "Latin phrases" website to use one day a week, you might get a copy of Minimus that you can use every third week of the month for a completely different approach, start an Ankiapp deck (e-flashcards) or find a Quizlet deck that you can mix in a couple days a week, Ellen McHenry has some fee Latin things on her website that you might incorporate second semester.

Once you've spent time thinking it through you are more likely to actually do it because 1. you've set it up to be very ready to implement and 2. you've invested a bunch of time in getting ready.

[HomeAgain]

Make it part of your routine.  I schedule stuff I have trouble getting to at the beginning of the day, either first or second on the list.  GSWL is only a few minutes and the first few lessons are simple enough to complete in less than 5 minutes, just to help you build that routine.  So you start with that each day, move on to a deeper subject, and get in the habit.  After a few weeks you realize it's really not a lot to do and you can shift it to a different spot if needed.

[2_girls_mommy]

One thing that has worked for us was to do it with others. When I started Latin in 4th grade with my first I decided to teach it at co-op, so I spent the time going over it and putting together a syllabus for it. Then we started a Latin club on top of it to study for the National Latin exams, and I did the same-started a new class- when my next DD was around 4th grade. Having other families devoted to it and putting in the tine and effort has really kept us motivated. I've taught it to others now in co-ops and in my home for 8 years. My oldest just took the level four Latin exams and is studying for the SAT Latin subject test and plans in studying classics in college. She's already talked to the dean who has told us he'll probably skip her at least a level in college even without the AP exam. So maybe working with another family could help? It did us.  

[serendipitous journey]

Well, here are thoughts.  Ignore with impunity! and maybe something will resonate. 

If you are doing GSWL, don't wait until next year, start Monday.  It just doesn't take that much time and what you need is to DO LATIN.  Monday, first thing in your school, go over the first lesson with the child.  Just knock it out of the way.  

Feel free to offer a treat.  A cookie, bit of chocolate, stay up 10" later, get 5-10" more of electronic fun, a dollar a day toward something the child wants, whatever.  The purpose of the treat is to get just a bit of emotional-buy in.  In my house, when one child earns a "bribe/treat" the other one gets small benefit which really helps them encourage each other: consider distributing the booty somehow, if fits your situation. 

Treat yourself.  Have a cup of tea, coffee, cocoa, a chocolate, do something you like on your own electronics for a bit, spend a few minutes reading something fun, get outside to putter for a bit in the middle of the school day, take a short walk.  Get some nice bubble bath/bath salts if you like.  Don't wait until you are already going, start being nice to yourself right away for this project.

Every time you finish a lesson, celebrate: take a moment to just feel good about what you are doing.  Thank your child for doing the work with you, no matter how sulky he was: find something honest to thank the child for, show that you appreciate him helping you meet this educational goal, and end on a positive note.  ("We got through it! Go take a five minute break!" works for me, even on the worst days.)

Then, Tuesday do the second lesson.  Here is a general, no-frills GSWL daily plan that will lead to mastery:

1.  Orally review older vocabulary.  Eventually you'll have a ton and may wish to manage it differently,  but for quite a while you can just flip through the book and drill on the definitions at the top of the lessons.  We do Latin to English first, then English to Latin: Ask the child to translate "nauta" (from the first lesson) into English "sailor", then English "sailor" into Latin.  If he forgets one, just have him say the definition 5 or so times in a row: "Nauta, sailor;  nauta, sailor;  nauta, sailor;  nauta, sailor;  nauta, sailor."  You can easily tick each one off on a finger. 

2.  Read the new lesson together, or have the child read it to you.

3.  Do any translations, Latin to English.

4.  Then, I think you should have the child do the translations from English back to the Latin.  As you get further in, you may want to do the first day from the Latin and the second day from the English. 

5.  If the child has struggled, then just make your next day's work doing those same exercises.  Repeat until he's doing pretty well. 

6.  When life truly prevents you from getting to Latin for a few days (which will almost certainly happen before you finish the book), then pick up by re-doing the last lesson.  If the child struggles, figure out how far back you need to go and pick up from there. 

I really, really suggest beginning right away if this has been so hard to do.  Also, and even if you don't start it right now, do it through the summer.  Even if it is the only school you do.  Maybe don't call it "school" call it "culture" or something.  Reward/treat the child with summery stuff, favorite foods, whatever.  You don't have to get the child's co-operation to treat him: I often announce to the boys an option of treat/bribes, and let them know they have to do the work anyhow and so they might as well get something nice out of it. 

Hope something is useful 🙂  and: good luck!  Above all: be kind to yourself. 

 

 

[Amp]

Thank you for the suggestions. ❤️

[serendipitous journey]

Amp, I have been thinking about your question RE how one motivates oneself to put forth the effort. 

I have to say -- first off -- that I don't think everybody "ought to" teach Latin.  I think it is a wonderful gift to give your child and has extraordinary intrinsic value; I also realize that not everyone can do everything, and there is much of value we don't do because we don't have the time, we don't have the resources, or we simply prioritize other things.  Some of what I do & how I school relates to the mundane reality of where we live (quasi-rural), the fact that DH's mother lives in an apartment under the same roof as us, whether or not we have a good church community, the fact that I am not fluent in any language other than English, and so on. 

Some thoughts:

First: When I am wanting motivation, I often google "value of classical languages" or something like that.  I myself don't relate to a lot of what Circe says about these things (though they are a good place to start) and I find Susan Wise Bauer's emphasis on the SAT/vocabulary-boosting value of Latin to be off-target (there are much more efficient ways to reach these goals).  I do like to re-read this article from the Guardian on "The Tragedy of Classical Languages Being for the Privileged Few." 

Second: The more I educate my own children and the more I see of other modes of education, the more convinced I am of the value of a classical/great-books/liberal arts education, rounded out with generous dollops of whatever enriches a particular child's life and rooted in the parent's value system.  In the American/European tradition, knowing Latin really pays off as you read the great books: so many of the authors knew Latin and one feels included in  -- sort of swept up in -- this enormous human endeavor that is the great books tradition (and lots of old-fashioned British children's books make references to studying Latin in school, which is fun).  Upper-level Latin will teach a good amount of Roman culture, which helps one really relate to persons distant in time and space and better understand what the great books.  Plus, knowing some Latin helps you read all the little Latin bits that authors don't bother translating.  😉 

Third: There are academic benefits.  Especially if you move beyond GSWL, Latin really does (I believe) help train the child to work diligently and pay careful attention to complex language.  When people hear that the child is studying Latin they are often impressed, which I think is a nice little boost for the child.  And for a variety of reasons, Latin is associated with more-elite education and it can be nice to have on the transcript -- not a good reason in and of itself to tackle years of Latin, but a nice thing to cheer one up on the days that studying Latin seems utterly useless. 

Much encouragement to you! 

Edited May 20, 2019 by serendipitous journey

[Amp]

On 5/20/2019 at 5:48 AM, serendipitous journey said:

Amp, I have been thinking about your question RE how one motivates oneself to put forth the effort. 

I have to say -- first off -- that I don't think everybody "ought to" teach Latin.  I think it is a wonderful gift to give your child and has extraordinary intrinsic value; I also realize that not everyone can do everything, and there is much of value we don't do because we don't have the time, we don't have the resources, or we simply prioritize other things.  Some of what I do & how I school relates to the mundane reality of where we live (quasi-rural), the fact that DH's mother lives in an apartment under the same roof as us, whether or not we have a good church community, the fact that I am not fluent in any language other than English, and so on. 

Some thoughts:

First: When I am wanting motivation, I often google "value of classical languages" or something like that.  I myself don't relate to a lot of what Circe says about these things (though they are a good place to start) and I find Susan Wise Bauer's emphasis on the SAT/vocabulary-boosting value of Latin to be off-target (there are much more efficient ways to reach these goals).  I do like to re-read this article from the Guardian on "The Tragedy of Classical Languages Being for the Privileged Few." 

Second: The more I educate my own children and the more I see of other modes of education, the more convinced I am of the value of a classical/great-books/liberal arts education, rounded out with generous dollops of whatever enriches a particular child's life and rooted in the parent's value system.  In the American/European tradition, knowing Latin really pays off as you read the great books: so many of the authors knew Latin and one feels included in  -- sort of swept up in -- this enormous human endeavor that is the great books tradition (and lots of old-fashioned British children's books make references to studying Latin in school, which is fun).  Upper-level Latin will teach a good amount of Roman culture, which helps one really relate to persons distant in time and space and better understand what the great books.  Plus, knowing some Latin helps you read all the little Latin bits that authors don't bother translating.  😉 

Third: There are academic benefits.  Especially if you move beyond GSWL, Latin really does (I believe) help train the child to work diligently and pay careful attention to complex language.  When people hear that the child is studying Latin they are often impressed, which I think is a nice little boost for the child.  And for a variety of reasons, Latin is associated with more-elite education and it can be nice to have on the transcript -- not a good reason in and of itself to tackle years of Latin, but a nice thing to cheer one up on the days that studying Latin seems utterly useless. 

Much encouragement to you! 

I'm just seeing this but thank you so much for writing this and the encouragement.

[pitterpatter]

We are going to use Memoria Press First Form Latin this year for 7th grade. I bought the complete program (with streaming video lessons and audio files) since I know no Latin. I also purchased an extra workbook so I may work and learn alongside DD. I can't see any other way to make it work.

[mathnerd]

@mms , a few years ago, when I was starting out on latin with my child, I read every single one of Ester Maria's posts and learned a lot from them.

If one were to simply ponder about latin study as a good "must have" because it improves the child's grammar, spelling, logical reasoning etc. there are multiple, effective ways to reach those goals without learning Latin. In my experience, those benefits are apparent only after the student reaches a high level of Latin proficiency and they are side-effects of learning Latin, translating Latin works and thinking deeply in that language. I think that any foreign language study is helpful in improving one's grammar and awareness of sentence structure, no matter if it is French, Spanish etc. The goal should be a desire to learn Latin for its own sake and the desire to delve into history of western civilization as well as the intent to read the original works in Latin in their original forms. A good example that someone made to me was about a Japanese speaker (substitute Chinese, French, Arabic or any other language speaker) desiring to read Shakespeare and he picks up a Japanese translation of "Romeo and Juliet" - also imagine how many nuances of the original writing got lost in translation to such an extent that the plot remains but the work is no longer by Shakespeare in this Japanese translation. Similarly, many works of ancient latin scholars are available as translations but the originals are unavailable to those who never learned to read latin. Which is why we see posts talking about the value of classical languages like Latin.

My son would like to stick with latin studies and drop other foreign languages because the complexity and logical nature of the language makes it really fun and interesting to him and it is his most favorite subject even though he is a STEM-inclined student. It keeps his mind very engaged and he talks excitedly about latin a lot,  every time he walks out of his class.

Some things that worked for us: we did latin every day that we could. I bought a bunch of supplements that are fun (idioms, mythology, roman history related) and incorporated into our study. We started with Song School Latin, moved on to Getting Started With Latin, then Minimus and then, I handed it over to a good teacher who knows what she is doing. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by mathnerd

[serendipitous journey]

I just want to agree with those who suggest reading Ester Maria's posts.  I wish I'd been more on-the-ball when some of the board became unkind toward her and sent out a voice of support, because I miss her points very much and she added a great deal to the conversation.  I also disagree strongly with her at a very basic level -- at least, I disagree in practice or maybe just in focus. 

Ester Maria is, I believe, 100% on-target when she writes about what Classical Education traditionally was and that it absolutely included rigorous training in Latin and in Greek (and in Hebrew, quite often) and she understands its roots in the medieval university/educational system. 

My own interest in, and commitment to, the ideals of western classical education are more directly related to the educational and social theories of classical cultures, starting in Greece (probably starting before then, and perhaps in Egypt, but the Greek works are the oldest I think we have access to).  Essentially I am committed to the classical ideals around the person -- the citizen -- as an entity of intrinsic worth, who is many-dimensioned (body, mind, spirit) and exists in a network of relationships (to self, to family, to the community/state, and to Nature/God/ultimate reality).  The entire person -- body, mind, and spirit -- ought to be developed so that the person is well/thriving (relates to the Greek concept of eudaimonia) and in "right relationship" to herself, her family, her community, and her ultimate reality. 

This is a beautiful ideal of education that is trans-cultural and extraordinarily inclusive: it makes great demands of the educator of any child, and suggests an approach which can be used with students regardless of intrinsic capacities or extrinsic resources.  One simply does what one can. 

So, in the purest sense, I don't think that Latin or Greek are necessary for a classical education.  This reminds me of something one of my college art history professors told our class at the beginning of the term: he said that we could, theoretically, get an "A" on the final exam even if we were not able to identify a single work of art the exam covered, if we had so utterly mastered the history and the forms/conventions of the art that we could write & discuss with erudition & conviction.  Now, naturally anyone with that degree of mastery would almost certainly recognize the works on the exam so in practice I don't think this ever happened. 

Similarly, anyone really pushing toward the classical ideals will almost certainly bump up against the classical languages and find them very compelling.  Perhaps one might pursue one's own culture's classical languages -- Persian, Chinese, and so on -- but a commitment to the classical ideals rooted in the classical authors will really tug one toward their languages.  For instance, the mastery I'd like my children to have of human culture and history and thought is one of the things pushing us toward staying engaged with Latin and introducing Greek. 

On the other hand learning classical languages is very, well, "expensive".  A general familiarity with Latin is not too demanding and is worthwhile: "Getting Started with Latin", for example, or the Minimus program.  But developing any degree of mastery requires a great commitment by the family and the student.  Of the student's time, certainly, and from the parent -- especially if he doesn't know Latin -- either a good amount of time or of money.  These are resources that aren't available for other pursuits even if the pursuits are worthy.  For instance, classical language study has limited our ability to pursue formal math and science.  The math and science in our house are both quite strong, partly because DH & I have scientific training, but I have a good feeling of what I would extend if I could.  As we ramp up elder DH's formal science study and do more with younger DH, other things have to be re-balanced and I try to leverage our subjects so that many activities meet multiple educational goals. 

I'm never as successful at all this as I'd wish, but what we are seeing is that the children are growing into interested, competent, thriving persons who have a sense of their own passions and are committed to helping other people thrive, too.  On average, at least!  And -- back to the point of the OP -- I can see how Latin fits into this in its own way, helping to develop persistence & historical/cultural breadth of thought & facility with language generally.  

ETA: OP, the main point here (made, if at all, very obliquely!) is that I hope you can take what benefits you from the threads with Ester Maria's posts &  leave anything that discourages.  🙂 

Edited June 22, 2019 by serendipitous journey