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s/o school shooting...are we immune? How do we feel safe again?

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The answer is: Love one another. AKA: Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is the message of those from the past that made a difference for good, like Martin Luther King, Jr. I don't know of anyone out there that is preaching this message that is allowed an audience today.

The extremists have the stage today, the bullies and bigots on the far left and far right who preach hate, division, and violence. They are anti-Jew, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-black, anti-white, and/or anti-Latino. They are the ones who yell at each other on the cable news, in Congress, and on the Internet.

"Someone must have sense enough and religion enough to cut off the chain of hate and evil, and this can only be done through love."  -MLK, Jr.

 

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10 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

You know, there is no 'again' for me.

I grew up in a violent household and I spent my formative years living in cities where street violence against women was common enough to be normalish.  And I knew of households where the wife wanted to leave and the husband credibly threatened to kill her if she did, and I knew that he would probably get away with that.  

So I have thought about this a lot over the years, and again I think that the main thing is to make personal violence completely unthinkable.  I further thing that it is possible.  The other stuff in my list would be helpful but that one thing is the primary shift that we need.

 

What we are seeing in the my industry's workplace now is the insistence on respect, and the rule of law.  When I first started working, it was nothing for women to be threatened or actually hurt as the aggressive behavior was that bad, and contractors were routinely banned if they couldn't treat the employees respectfully. My manager at one point told me not to be there after hours, even though in my job description I was on call....I had an assigned employee on each shift who would be with me until certain employees were either re-trained or let go.  The hostility against women is one of the reasons I didn't go back to work when my dc were elementary school age.  Today in my dh's job, the insistence on respect for co-workers and using certain forms of business conduct is now there from management, and the mandatory training is done every six months. Employees are let go if they can't treat others with respect or abide by the business conduct expectations.  It seems safe enough to work again in my field in a nonmanagement role.

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22 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Its disenfranschisement.  They have been pushed out. Some gather with like others before hurting back. Join a community partnership, reach out, heal, house, employ and the anger will dissipate as they become included.

No. Young white men are not disenfranchised. They are just not totally in control anymore. Giving up being totally in control to share that control and rights with others in a more equitable way doesn't equal disenfranchisement. It's like when a toddle his hoarding all the toy cars at preschool and you insist he give one to his friend to play with. He'll cry that you took "his" car and it isn't fair, but he certainly isn't being persecuted. 

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1 hour ago, Skippy said:

The answer is: Love one another. AKA: Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is the message of those from the past that made a difference for good, like Martin Luther King, Jr. I don't know of anyone out there that is preaching this message that is allowed an audience today.

The extremists have the stage today, the bullies and bigots on the far left and far right who preach hate, division, and violence. They are anti-Jew, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-black, anti-white, and/or anti-Latino. They are the ones who yell at each other on the cable news, in Congress, and on the Internet.

"Someone must have sense enough and religion enough to cut off the chain of hate and evil, and this can only be done through love."  -MLK, Jr.

 

Moral Monday? Jesus Movement? 

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13 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

No. Young white men are not disenfranchised. They are just not totally in control anymore. Giving up being totally in control to share that control and rights with others in a more equitable way doesn't equal disenfranchisement. It's like when a toddle his hoarding all the toy cars at preschool and you insist he give one to his friend to play with. He'll cry that you took "his" car and it isn't fair, but he certainly isn't being persecuted. 

 sorry. We aren't talking about white men who would have been in control.  these are not youth with options like that.  

also you are ignoring other cultures as you go for just your preferred subgroup target...you can't cherrypick and ignore the rest if you want to solve the issue.

these are young men who have been shoved to the fringes. they need a way back in, and those who live in communities who provide that path as well as are committed to inclusion are seeing success.  as Dawn says on the other thread, mental health counseling is needed for K12 in many many areas...but what she doesn't say is that its there in others.

This is end of college semester for many.  I personally know two who were pulled out of class for apparent depression and given mental health counseling and other support.  There are that many eyes on the student body, and that much support available at schools who are supportive of ALL subgroups. Inclusiveness matters.

Edited by HeighHo

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8 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I'd kinda had Japan pegged as actually not that great on street harassment for women ( or women's safety more generally)

 

 

My sister lived there for ten years in the 90s and said she felt safe going anywhere alone at anytime of the day or night in Tokyo. I don’t know how it is now.

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29 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 sorry. We aren't talking about white men who would have been in control.  these are not youth with options like that.  

also you are ignoring other cultures as you go for just your preferred subgroup target...you can't cherrypick and ignore the rest if you want to solve the issue.

these are young men who have been shoved to the fringes. they need a way back in, and those who live in communities who provide that path as well as are committed to inclusion are seeing success.  as Dawn says on the other thread, mental health counseling is needed for K12 in many many areas...but what she doesn't say is that its there in others.

This is end of college semester for many.  I personally know two who were pulled out of class for apparent depression and given mental health counseling and other support.  There are that many eyes on the student body, and that much support available at schools who are supportive of ALL subgroups. Inclusiveness matters.

Who are not youth with options like that? Are you referring to the most recent shooter, who was at a good school, in a good area? The rich white guy (well, he was til he blew his money gambling) who shot up Las Vegas? The kids at columbine who certainly had a wide open future?

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14 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

What makes me think that it is possible is that I have been to Japan, a place that has domestic violence (and shouldn't) but where women are safe on the street.  Somehow that is the norm.  So I figure that it's possible.  How they got there and how we can get there I have no idea.  But existence has been proven to my satisfaction, so...

In Japan, people (both men and women) are safe from violent crime.  There is however a stream/streak of harassment that happens to women.  This is why there are women's only cars on some subway lines in Tokyo and other large cities.  But to walk around at night as a woman?  Totally and completely safe.  There is DV in Japan but I think it dying out (along with marriage sadly).  A difference is that guns are almost impossible to own, so you can beat a woman but you can't shoot her.

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4 hours ago, Skippy said:

The answer is: Love one another. AKA: Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is the message of those from the past that made a difference for good, like Martin Luther King, Jr. I don't know of anyone out there that is preaching this message that is allowed an audience today.

The extremists have the stage today, the bullies and bigots on the far left and far right who preach hate, division, and violence. They are anti-Jew, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-black, anti-white, and/or anti-Latino. They are the ones who yell at each other on the cable news, in Congress, and on the Internet.

"Someone must have sense enough and religion enough to cut off the chain of hate and evil, and this can only be done through love."  -MLK, Jr.

 

I think whenever we talk about MLK, we must be careful of not picking those sayings that make us feel good and ignoring what makes us feel uncomfortable. 

Quote

What writer Carolyn Garris and many other conservatives misinterpret in King’s emphasis on love is that he believed love would change people and inspire them to dismantle unjust laws and systems of oppression. The conservative belief in racism as an individual sin or moral failing, rather than a system that requires community and governmental reform, makes King’s writings on love convenient fodder for warm-and-fuzzy quotes. It no longer performs the work he originally intended—bringing about social justice for morality’s sake.

King's Message of Non-Violence has been Distorted

Please provide examples of "bullies and bigots" on the "far left" who hate Jews and Muslims. 

Anti-Christian should not even listed with the other "anti's" in your list. Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now. 

 

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4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

No. Young white men are not disenfranchised. They are just not totally in control anymore. Giving up being totally in control to share that control and rights with others in a more equitable way doesn't equal disenfranchisement. It's like when a toddle his hoarding all the toy cars at preschool and you insist he give one to his friend to play with. He'll cry that you took "his" car and it isn't fair, but he certainly isn't being persecuted. 

 

Housing prices are a form of disenfranchisement. Here, anyway.

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The thing to remember is that the chance of your kid being shot while at school has NOT gone up.  Here is an article from NPR, so it isn't from a pro-gun source. 

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/15/593831564/the-disconnect-between-perceived-danger-in-u-s-schools-and-reality

There was at least one school shooting at the different high schools DH and I attended while we were there.    It wasn't news beyond the local area and they didn't even shut down the school.   They offered counseling to anyone that needed it and the reaction was eye-rolls from the general population.


Whereas a few years ago an acquaintance of ours was shot in his driveway in the middle of the day.   They locked down the high school even though it wasn't particularly close.  The news reports boiled down to "He was shot because he was a gold dealer (with the same tone as if it were a drug dealer) and the High School was inconvenienced.  "
 

 

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3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now. 

History proves that this is just untrue, unless one believes the whitewashed version of history (Pilgrims fleeing persecution and establishing freedom of religion for all). The Catholics persecuted (meaning hanged) the French Protestants. The English Protestants persecuted the Catholics. The Puritans persecuted the Quakers. These things continued after the colonies became the United States. The Anglicans persecuted the Baptists and Presbyterians. Protestants continued persecution of Catholics in the 19th century. (And I am not even mentioning the persecution of the Mormons.) There have been many instances of church bombings/fires/and shootings continuing to the present day. A church that was a pivotal location for civil rights activities was bombed in Birmingham killing four little girls. There was a mass shooting by a white supremacist at a church in Charleston at a prayer service killing nine. 

I don't subscribe to limiting compassion. Unfortunately, historically, there has been enough persecution to go around (and I am not the type who thinks "Happy Holidays" is persecution. I am talking about execution, imprisonment, removal of children from parents, burning homes and places of worship, etc.).

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12 minutes ago, Skippy said:

History proves that this is just untrue, unless one believes the whitewashed version of history (Pilgrims fleeing persecution and establishing freedom of religion for all). The Catholics persecuted (meaning hanged) the French Protestants. The English Protestants persecuted the Catholics. The Puritans persecuted the Quakers. These things continued after the colonies became the United States. The Anglicans persecuted the Baptists and Presbyterians. Protestants continued persecution of Catholics in the 19th century. (And I am not even mentioning the persecution of the Mormons.) There have been many instances of church bombings/fires/and shootings continuing to the present day. A church that was a pivotal location for civil rights activities was bombed in Birmingham killing four little girls. There was a mass shooting by a white supremacist at a church in Charleston at a prayer service killing nine. 

I don't subscribe to limiting compassion. Unfortunately, historically, there has been enough persecution to go around (and I am not the type who thinks "Happy Holidays" is persecution. I am talking about execution, imprisonment, removal of children from parents, burning homes and places of worship, etc.).

 

Claiming the bolded as acts targeting Christians is intellectually dishonest.  In both cases the targets were African Americans who happened to be Christian.

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My school district has a new superintendent and with him came some new policies that seem to be working. They have an anonymous tip line for students to report threats to the school and students with guns. The students are actually using it! We have had several students arrested for gun possession and/or charged with terroristic threats to the school. One even went to DHS. They have random searches with K9's that can sniff out guns. The students know that only a reasonable suspicion to search a student's bag and weapon confiscation is down. It's been making the news and I believe it's helping. It's scary to hear about, but knowing they are being caught is more of a relief than thinking nothing is being done or is being swept under the rug. 

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8 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Claiming the bolded as acts targeting Christians is intellectually dishonest.  In both cases the targets were African Americans who happened to be Christian.

I think it is factually incorrect to state that "Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now." 

You may leave those you picked out off the list if you think the fact that they were Christians was not relevant and replace them with recent burnings and shootings at white churches if you prefer. For example, there was one in Antioch, TN where I think the congregants were white. There was a fire in a Catholic Church in Arizona yesterday that is thought to be arson, but I am not sure of the race of those congregants.

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41 minutes ago, Skippy said:

History proves that this is just untrue, unless one believes the whitewashed version of history (Pilgrims fleeing persecution and establishing freedom of religion for all). The Catholics persecuted (meaning hanged) the French Protestants. The English Protestants persecuted the Catholics. The Puritans persecuted the Quakers. These things continued after the colonies became the United States. The Anglicans persecuted the Baptists and Presbyterians. Protestants continued persecution of Catholics in the 19th century. (And I am not even mentioning the persecution of the Mormons.) There have been many instances of church bombings/fires/and shootings continuing to the present day. A church that was a pivotal location for civil rights activities was bombed in Birmingham killing four little girls. There was a mass shooting by a white supremacist at a church in Charleston at a prayer service killing nine. 

I don't subscribe to limiting compassion. Unfortunately, historically, there has been enough persecution to go around (and I am not the type who thinks "Happy Holidays" is persecution. I am talking about execution, imprisonment, removal of children from parents, burning homes and places of worship, etc.).

I specifically mentioned the United States. 

I note that you did not address my request for members of the "far left" who are bigoted against Jews. 

 

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One other thing to really think about in terms of violence, by a gun or otherwise....

 

A person is actually more likely to die by their own hand than they are to be shot by someone else.  A larger percentage of gun deaths are suicides, not homicides.  

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6 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

I note that you did not address my request for members of the "far left" who are bigoted against Jews. 

 

I think to answer this question would get into politics and this thread is in the the Chat board.  I absolutely believe there are left (far left) members of congress who hold anti-semitic views.  

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I note that you did not address my request for members of the "far left" who are bigoted against Jews. 

Please read carefully and notice the "and/or." Thanks.

9 hours ago, Skippy said:

The extremists have the stage today, the bullies and bigots on the far left and far right who preach hate, division, and violence. They are anti-Jew, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-black, anti-white, and/or anti-Latino.

Also, I don't like the tactic of demanding answers to any question someone may choose to ask. It doesn't make for polite conversation. 

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19 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

   Improve mental health treatment and care and its coverage by medical insurance and access to it.

1000% this.

California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country and they keep getting stricter. Hasn't stopped mass shootings from happening in the state including the recent terrorist attack at the synagogue.

California also has an acute shortage of mental health professionals who are in-network for insurance, especially ones treating pediatric patients. I was told that in order for my special needs child to be seen by a psychiatrist I had to hospitalize her. That would be WAY overkill for the issues we were dealing with (acting out in class with the worst thing she did was throwing a chair, not in anyone's direction). So she's continuing to have medication management by the neurologist & that really isn't the proper specialist to be overseeing that.

The state can't force psychiatrists to accept insurance but there are things it could do like increase funding for pediatric psychiatry training slots at the UC medical schools.

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52 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Claiming the bolded as acts targeting Christians is intellectually dishonest.  In both cases the targets were African Americans who happened to be Christian.

Our church in AK got a brick through the glass front door, in a congregation that was 90% white and a in wealthy, well educated enclave.  It happens.

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32 minutes ago, Skippy said:

I think it is factually incorrect to state that "Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now." 

You may leave those you picked out off the list if you think the fact that they were Christians was not relevant and replace them with recent burnings and shootings at white churches if you prefer. For example, there was one in Antioch, TN where I think the congregants were white. There was a fire in a Catholic Church in Arizona yesterday that is thought to be arson, but I am not sure of the race of those congregants.

The church burnings were again targeting African American churches.

The Sutherland Springs church was targeted because the shooter's ex-wife attended it.

The shooter in Antioch, TN claimed his attack was in response to the shooting at the black church in Charleston, SC.

You aren't making your case very well.

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6 hours ago, Frances said:

My sister lived there for ten years in the 90s and said she felt safe going anywhere alone at anytime of the day or night in Tokyo. I don’t know how it is now.

 I guess street safety is different to overall levels of harassment and VAWG. 

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23 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think to answer this question would get into politics and this thread is in the the Chat board.  I absolutely believe there are left (far left) members of congress who hold anti-semitic views.  

 

I think anyone interested in this question might like to take a look at the current case study in the UK - left (not far left) Corbyn, Labour and anti-semitism. Maybe an at-one-remove answer can skirt the politics ban. 

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3 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Housing prices are a form of disenfranchisement. Here, anyway.

 

Absolutely! 

I think the conversation re disenfranchisement of white (all) working class peoples, including young men, is an entirely separate conversation to this one. Most recently, the Sri Lankan bomber who studied in AU ? Comes from a wealthy family, top of the heap. I believe he's not an outlier. The most recent killer - he's not from a deprived background either. 

But yes, I think the disenfranchisement of a group of people is very real. Just not an answer as to why a young man might murder Jews in their place of worship, nor Muslims in theirs.

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25 minutes ago, Skippy said:

Please read carefully and notice the "and/or." Thanks.

Also, I don't like the tactic of demanding answers to any question someone may choose to ask. It doesn't make for polite conversation. 

The examples you gave are not examples of people being persecuted because they are Christians. There is a big difference between Christians disliking other Christians and "anti-Christian" bigotry. 

You may not like the tactic but you're the one who made the claim about far left bigots. Who are these far left bigots? 

 

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34 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

One other thing to really think about in terms of violence, by a gun or otherwise....

 

A person is actually more likely to die by their own hand than they are to be shot by someone else.  A larger percentage of gun deaths are suicides, not homicides.  

 

A reduction in suicide by gun is part of why I like our gun laws. 

They don't cure suicide by gun - just make that impulsive decision harder to enact for many people - mostly men.

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Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

The examples you gave are not examples of people being persecuted because they are Christians. There is a big difference between Christians disliking other Christians and "anti-Christian" bigotry. 

You may not like the tactic but you're the one who made the claim about far left bigots. Who are these far left bigots? 

 

 

I think it might be worth reading about the UK situation, in order to understand the anti-Semitism that can creep in to the left, and remain un challenged by the left, and I say that as a pro-Palestinian leftist.

Anti-Semistism is not an unimportant 'ism'. And again, as  a pro-Palestinian leftist, I think most leftists can do a hell of lot better in making sure their language and approach to Palestinian liberation does not buy into anti-Jewish tropes, and holds ourself as a poltical grouping responsible for when we fail to listen to Jews who point out our (often covert, sometimes unconscious) anti-Semistism. 

I don't know about the specifics of the US situation - and highly doubt you have any economically far leftists in government anyway - I think people are referring to some prominent Democrats, and I have no opinion one way or another on individuals - but I think it's very unlikely that the US left has zero anti-Semistism in its ranks.

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5 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

In Japan, people (both men and women) are safe from violent crime.  There is however a stream/streak of harassment that happens to women.  This is why there are women's only cars on some subway lines in Tokyo and other large cities.  But to walk around at night as a woman?  Totally and completely safe.  There is DV in Japan but I think it dying out (along with marriage sadly).  A difference is that guns are almost impossible to own, so you can beat a woman but you can't shoot her.

 

Wow. Enlightened Japan! 

I know you're not condoning it, but hardly yay, I'll only get beaten. 

I'm pretty safe on the streets here in AU. I'm not worried about random attacks at night; a little worried about drunken yahoos in certain places. I think that just speaks to decent policing, not to an underlying national moral character that disavows violence. 'Cos our VAWG rates are off the charts. And we home grew a terrorist or more. 

I'm just really uncertain that street safety = problem of male violence solved.

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4 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

You aren't making your case very well.

I am not worried too much because it only requires one case of any kind of persecution at any time in the entire history of the United States to refute the claim that was made ("never.. any kind... not inthe past or now"). The one brick thrown above is enough to refute it.

I know you said this one doesn't count, but I disagree. Atheist kills 26 people in Texas church shooting:

https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/ex-friends-say-shooter-was-creepy-atheist-who-berated-religious-people/

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8 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

No. Young white men are not disenfranchised. They are just not totally in control anymore. Giving up being totally in control to share that control and rights with others in a more equitable way doesn't equal disenfranchisement. It's like when a toddle his hoarding all the toy cars at preschool and you insist he give one to his friend to play with. He'll cry that you took "his" car and it isn't fair, but he certainly isn't being persecuted. 

 

Actually, some young white men are, just as some young white women are.

This misunderstanding of intersectionality drives me up the wall. 

They are NOT disenfranchised on the basis of race, that's all. And that's big. But does not speak to whether or not they are disenfranchised in other ways.

All of which is irrelevant to the question of 'what makes men kills  people at worship' ?

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12 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

You may not like the tactic but you're the one who made the claim about far left bigots. Who are these far left bigots? 

And you are the one that makes outrageous claims that there is not one instance of persecution of any Christian in the entire history of the U.S., and apparently there is also not even one bigot of any kind on the entire far left.

Nope, still not biting.

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8 minutes ago, Skippy said:

I am not worried too much because it only requires one case of any kind of persecution at any time in the entire history of the United States to refute the claim that was made ("never.. any kind... not inthe past or now"). The one brick thrown above is enough to refute it.

I know you said this one doesn't count, but I disagree. Atheist kills 26 people in Texas church shooting:

https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/ex-friends-say-shooter-was-creepy-atheist-who-berated-religious-people/

First, I didn't make that claim.

Second, you started off just randomly calling any attack involving a church as anti-Christian so it is hard to take you seriously.

Edited by ChocolateReignRemix
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13 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I think it might be worth reading about the UK situation, in order to understand the anti-Semitism that can creep in to the left, and remain un challenged by the left, and I say that as a pro-Palestinian leftist.

Anti-Semistism is not an unimportant 'ism'. And again, as  a pro-Palestinian leftist, I think most leftists can do a hell of lot better in making sure their language and approach to Palestinian liberation does not buy into anti-Jewish tropes, and holds ourself as a poltical grouping responsible for when we fail to listen to Jews who point out our (often covert, sometimes unconscious) anti-Semistism. 

I don't know about the specifics of the US situation - and highly doubt you have any economically far leftists in government anyway - I think people are referring to some prominent Democrats, and I have no opinion one way or another on individuals - but I think it's very unlikely that the US left has zero anti-Semistism in its ranks.

Here's my struggle with both-sidisms when discussing anti-semitism. There's really only one side that has the power to act on its bigotry. Also, both-sidism deflects blame. 

 

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"Second, you started off just randomly calling any attack involving a church as anti-Christian so its hard to take you seriously."

I never said that any attack involving a church was "anti-Christian." 

5 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now. 

I was listing times when Christians were "subject to any kind of persecution." There is a difference.

Edited by Skippy
Sorry, missed the initial quote and don't know how to add it back in correctly.

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I will also add that anyone who thinks citing one act against a group as evidence of systemic persecution is someone who doesn't grasp what real persecution looks like.

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Just now, Skippy said:

I never said that any attack involving a church was "anti-Christian."

You certainly implied it when you used the Birmingham church bombing and the Charleston shooting as evidence of Christian persecution. 

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5 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

First, I didn't make that claim.

Second, you started off just randomly calling any attack involving a church as anti-Christian so its hard to take you seriously.

I'm the one who made that claim. Yes, it might be overgeneralized. 

It is so offensive to suggest that the Birmingham bombing is an example of anti-Christian bigotry when racist bigotry is the reason the church existed in the first place. Why were their black churches and white churches in the south? 

American Christians do not live in fear for their lives for being Christians. You can't dispute this. 

 

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2 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

I will also add that anyone who thinks citing one act against a group as evidence of systemic persecution is someone who doesn't grasp what real persecution looks like.

But "evidence of systemic persecution" was not the bar here. Any evidence of any kind of persecution ever in the history of the U.S. was the bar. You are changing the topic.

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 Yes, it might be overgeneralized. 

This is all I was saying.

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

American Christians do not live in fear for their lives for being Christians. You can't dispute this. 

Agreed. I was never disputing this.

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15 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Here's my struggle with both-sidisms when discussing anti-semitism. There's really only one side that has the power to act on its bigotry. Also, both-sidism deflects blame. 

 

 

Recognising one's anti-Semistism is a moral and personal issue. 

At least for me it is. 

I don't think interrogating it in oneself or in one's movement means that holding the Israeli government to account for its actions becomes impossible.

If anything, I think it strengthens the moral position of those who wish to see a fair settlement for the Palestinian people.

Two big things for me were listening to Jewish people on why my use of 'Zionism and Zionists' to try to demarcate criticism of Israeli policy from global Jewish populations was itself derived from anti-Jewish tropes, and developing a moral imagination on why Jewish people defend, and even extend, a homeland.

My politics haven't shifted one iota, and I see anti-Palestinian tropes from Israeli and other Jewish people also at times. And yes, the Israeli government is culpable, imo, for the suffering of Palestinians. But I see zero conflict between learning to tackle my unconscious anti-Semitism and my political position. 

YMMV

eta and of course it's used as a dog whistle issue by the right also! And in an American context, I can see why there would be great reluctance to be seen as feeding that dog by acknowledging intra-movement issues.

 

Edited by StellaM
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Ouch.

 My comment on the way this thread is sounding.

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10 minutes ago, Skippy said:

But "evidence of systemic persecution" was not the bar here. Any evidence of any kind of persecution ever in the history of the U.S. was the bar. You are changing the topic.

I am not sure rare, random attacks qualify under the general understanding of persecution. Christians have been, and currently still are, a dominant group in the U.S. so claiming persecution is a stretch.

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Possibly of interest— link to whole interview in the comments:

 

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I would like to point out that even though I do have an understanding that the OP has a background that creates specific concerns, in her actual original post, she says things like 

Quote

I hate that I worry about three of my kids attending the same school next year (as I have to go back to school and can't homeschool)....and wonder, maybe I should spread them out to minimize the risk of loosing them all? 

Quote

Do we now need 50 victims to even care?

This leads me to believe that the OP didn't start the thread as a "who's more mistreated" one upmanship sort of thread, which is where it seems to be going.  The OP seems to be concerned about mass violence in general.  And OP if I am mis speaking, then I apologize, but getting into which group is more persecuted doesn't seem to apply to the original intent of the OP.  

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4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Housing prices are a form of disenfranchisement. Here, anyway.

But those are not aimed at white men in particular, which I believe was the group the post was saying was disenfranchised. 

47 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Actually, some young white men are, just as some young white women are.

This misunderstanding of intersectionality drives me up the wall. 

They are NOT disenfranchised on the basis of race, that's all. And that's big. But does not speak to whether or not they are disenfranchised in other ways.

All of which is irrelevant to the question of 'what makes men kills  people at worship' ?

Oh, certainly. I was only responding to the idea that because they are white and male they are disenfranchised. Not trying to say that people can't be white, male, and still face similar issues, based on other demographic factors such as religion, sexual orientation, etc etc etc. Heck, short men make less money than tall men, in a way they are less enfranchised 

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49 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

I will also add that anyone who thinks citing one act against a group as evidence of systemic persecution is someone who doesn't grasp what real persecution looks like.

The question given was for any example.  I gave a verifiable personal one.  

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3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

The question given was for any example.  I gave a verifiable personal one.  

Not really.  A random broken window doesn't prove anything,

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50 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Not really.  A random broken window doesn't prove anything,

Bricks were being thrown through church doors and windows in that town for several weeks.  Just Christian churches.  Police investigated.  There are other examples, but that one obviously made an impression on me.  Thankfully nobody was injured.

Here are some other recent examples from just down the way, though this isn’t where I attended:

https://www.anchoragepress.com/news/eagle-river-church-wants-to-see-an-end-to-vandalism/article_08ae5c12-8afc-11e8-87ce-47c17f9bc77a.html

I’m sure you can pick it apart as not persecution and quite frankly I don’t care - this congregation is more diverse than ours was but the behavior is not dissimilar.  Ordinary Shoes asked for any examples. Tada.  

Edited by Arctic Mama
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38 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Bricks were being thrown through church doors and windows in that town for several weeks.  Just Christian churches.  Police investigated.  There are other examples, but that one obviously made an impression on me.  Thankfully nobody was injured.

Here are some other recent examples from just down the way, though this isn’t where I attended:

https://www.anchoragepress.com/news/eagle-river-church-wants-to-see-an-end-to-vandalism/article_08ae5c12-8afc-11e8-87ce-47c17f9bc77a.html

I’m sure you can pick it apart as not persecution and quite frankly I don’t care - this congregation is more diverse than ours was but the behavior is not dissimilar.  Ordinary Shoes asked for any examples. Tada.  

 

Personally I am just glad Christians in this country have never had to face actual persecution.  I don't understand the need of those who want to pretend they have.

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