s/o school shooting...are we immune? How do we feel safe again?

[umsami]

The recent shooting in NC did not get a big reaction.  I don't even think the shooting at Chabad in San Diego got much of a reaction.  Why?  Is it because it's our new norm, or is it because there weren't that many victims compared to Las Vegas, Christchurch, or Orlando.  Do we now need 50 victims to even care?

I don't like that.

That's not acceptable to me.

It's not where I want to live or raise my kids.

Ramadan starts this weekend.  Typically, most communities have community dinners  (open to the public too) every night.

I don't feel safe going.  At all.

After Christchurch, they amped up security at both of the local mosques...but still....I don't think it's enough.

I hate that.

I hate that I worry about three of my kids attending the same school next year (as I have to go back to school and can't homeschool)....and wonder, maybe I should spread them out to minimize the risk of loosing them all? 

It doesn't seem that we'll go back to gun regulation, even though it was perfectly fine with SCOTUS and others for most of the history of our democracy.

So what?  What do we do?

 

[TheReader]

I ask the same questions, and have none of the answers. I just wanted to say you aren't alone in your thinking, and I'm deeply sorry that you are feeling unsafe attending your normal celebrations/observances for Ramadan. 

I wish I had more answers. All I know to do is to look out for those around me as best I can, and use my votes and my voice to help bring about changes that might help.....if I could figure out what changes those might be. 

[umsami]

3 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

You build community.  And you make sure those that you displaced have work and housing.  Remember, hurt people hurt people.  Therefore healing must occur, and hurting must discontinue.

It seems like many of the shootings are because of hate and misogyny (incels, domestic violence).  The incels and the hate-fueled folks...they've found their communities already that support them.

[SanDiegoMom]

2 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

Its disenfranschisement.  They have been pushed out. Some gather with like others before hurting back.

It's hard to understand this though.  The Poway shooter was most likely an upper -middle class white kid from Rancho Penasquitos (I lived there for six years - it's very pretty diverse and relatively affluent).  His dad taught physics at the high school he attended.  He apparently was a stellar student.  Where is he being pushed out of? Who is persecuting him?  I read an article that suggested he held conservative views and it is a liberal area.  Well my daughter went to high school in a very conservative area and is pretty liberal. And didn't feel persecuted.  She was grateful to be around people that challenged her views.  

[Pen]

One of the first of the recent spate of shootings was in my general geographical area— Kip Kinkle at Thurston High in Oregon.   I think that was due to mentally ill child + parents having supplied him with guns.  I don’t think it had anything to do with feeling displaced .  

And from what I have read that’s probably similar for Poway.  

 

I think things *have* changed.  We don’t feel safe again as we did before.  

Some of us experience greater anxiety.

others perhaps may be experiencing whatever feelings copycats feel 

[SanDiegoMom]

26 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

is he in a school where intellectualism is valued?  many of these students are not, and they hear constant verbal abuse.  College is refreshing break where they find their tribe.

I've been so distracted I can't keep my quotes right obviously.  Anyway... 

The school he was at is "average" for Poway, but it is a highly academic district.  They have a 92 percent going on to college rate, 60 percent to four year college, average SAT of 1200.  Five National Merit Scholars.  Compare that to the school I attended with a 40 percent drop out rate, kids being bribed to attend class, feeling unsafe sometimes walking through the hall.  We had maybe 10-15 kids out of a starting class of 400  who were in AP classes.  Yes, being a misfit is pretty miserable but not anywhere near a reason for this this level of violence. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by SanDiegoMom in VA

[Emba]

It’s compassion fatigue. One drawback to the everpresent media and instant worldwide communication is that we are asked to care, all the tome, about people all over the world, and we can’t. Yes, every person on earth is equally valuable, but we don’t have the mental capacity.

No place is safe. Safety is a general experience, a common experience, in our country at this time, so it can be shocking to realize that, but there is nothing that can stop bad things from happening. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to prevent what can reasonably be prevented, but we can wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and stay at home and have child-safe outlets and hypoallergenic air filters and a plane could fall out of the sky and through our roof, you know?

And this is controversial on these boards, but I don’t think it’s guns that are the problem. And I say that having lost two beloved librarians in a local shooting almost two years ago. There is something sick in our culture that didn’t used to be there, that suddenly this seems like a good solution to some people (mostly men) for their grievances in life. I think violent video games and entertainment have something to do with it, but mostly the problem is in the human heart. Outlaw guns and the means will change but the sickness will still be there.

[Emba]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I agree with most of this, except the idea that there's something that changed.  A thousand years ago, humans of all kinds used to travel months and months, sometimes year, just to hack each other to death with swords.  Humans have been violently killing each other over religious and ideological beliefs since they first beat rocks into sharp objects.   Even though we often like to think it has, there's really nothing about our modern society that has changed that.  

But availability of guns hasn’t changed in this country and yet incidents of mass shooting have gone up. I agree, people have slaughtered each other for centuries. But when my Dad was in school, kids who hunted drove to school with guns in a gun rack in their pickup and no one worried or said anything. My younger brother was almost in big trouble for having, I forget, either Unfired bullets, or fired shells, or an empty gun with no ammo in his pickup at school. Something he was legally allowed to possess, which was not capable of doing harm in its present state. He had a good explanation and it was a small rural school, so he squeaked by.

I really believe the culture  has changed, not just how we view guns, but the kind of violence we’re seeing. It breaks the pattern of previous generations and involves a lot more innocent bystanders. It came out that the library shooter had been recently bullied. It was seen as a sort of motivation. The previous, more familiar (and still dominant) cultural pattern would have involved vengeance on those particular individuals, I think.

[Emba]

 

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Yes, mass shootings have gone up in recent decades.  But, human slaughter hasn't changed overall in centuries.  Human nature doesn't change that fast.  All that's really changed is method.  

If we want to examine changes on a short term scale...what's changed is, as you referenced, the ever present media.  A very large number of school shooters specifically reference Columbine, and most mass shooters model themselves after a previous mass shooter.  Social contagion is a thing.  It's like a new form of mob mentality.  It didn't change because of human nature, it only changed because of our access to others of similar minds.  A thousand years ago, a person in Europe and a person in China couldn't talk to each other in real time.  Now, people in Bejing, Tokyo, Christchurch, Jerusalem, London, Madrid, NYC, Chicago, and Honolulu can all watch Notre Dame burn in real time, live as it happens, as if we are there.  

It isn't that human nature has changed, only that our abilities to tap into all facets of it has.   

I agree. I never said human nature changed, or I certainly did not intend to. I believe the change is cultural.

Eta for clarification: when I said something had changed since previous generations I meant specifically in America, though as there is a certain amount of shared Western culture, it also has changed in other Western cultures as well, though in different ways/amounts.

Edited May 1, 2019 by emba56

[HeartString]

The thing that is different now is the internet.  The boards these guys are on encourage the violence. The synagogue shooter and the Christchurch shooter frequented the same website/message board site.  Where 30 years ago the guy that felt like a misfit listened to bad music and wrote bad poetry until he grew out it, now they go on those sites and find others like themselves, encourage each other to commit violence and cheer each other on.  The “lone wolf” is finding his pack online.  

[Emba]

Well, okay, I guess I see where a very fine line can be drawn between technology and the culture that grows out of it. 

Like, I would say that the capability for internet is the technology, but chat rooms and Facebook, how we use the internet and express ourselves through it, are culture.  The video/audio recording and the ability to transmit them almost instantaneously across the planet are technology, but the news shows and 24 hour news cycle are culture. Maybe I’m off base. It’s been a lot of years since I attended a sociology class. 🙂

 

[HeartString]

I’m just not sure that it is “culture” as in the whole culture.  The vast vast majority of people are nice.  The number of shootings is going up, but it’s still tiny.  If it was the culture wouldn’t you expect much more? 

Its something about this tiny subset of young white guys.  

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Cnew02

[Emba]

1 minute ago, Cnew02 said:

I’m just not sure that it is “culture” as in the whole culture.  The vast vast majority of people are nice.  The number of shootings is going up, but it’s still tiny.  If it was the culture wouldn’t you expect much more? 

Its something about this tiny subset of young white guys.  

You’re right. I truly believe most people are nice.

I guess I chalk it up to the changes in culture affecting a certain subset of people who are already twisted a certain way differently than they affect the majority of people.  And there are some subcultures that foster and encourage this sickness, nurture what normal people stamp out.

[Emba]

I also think feelings of entitlement are at play. In the case of incels, blatantly so. 

[moonflower]

You're not immune; you're still safer than you are driving every day, I think.

[umsami]

55 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Oh, and umsami - different situation and context, but when I was preoccupied with a topic that made me feel helpless, scared and sad, I found the best remedy was action. You are probably already involved in action, so I'm not suggesting in any way you are sitting at home quivering (I was sitting at home raging). But just in case, and for anyone else feeling preoccupied - doing something (so I guess in this case re guns, re cross faith discussion, re toxic masculinity) no matter how small that is proactive can really help with the overwhelm.

I think I'm tired.  I've been doing things since 9/11...and things have gotten worse, not better.

I worked in domestic violence in the Muslim-American community, and while I saw some big changes in how some communities tackled it....the number of famicilides (not in the Muslim-American community but in the US) have gone up and up.  It's no longer a surprise when a guy (usually) kills his wife and kids and then commits suicide himself.  Actually, I'm happily surprised when the kids survive a DV shooting these days.

Access to powerful guns has changed.  After Reagan was shot, there was the assault weapons ban.  Americans only started owning assault weapons in large numbers in 2004 when that legislation expired.  The NRA wasn't omnipowerful (and that is changing), but it's also Citizen United and the power of lobbyists (on both sides) that increased.  

"Assessing these bans based on their brief history, however, obscures a key fact: When legislatures first restricted the guns, few civilians owned them. Americans only started buying assault weapons in large numbers after the federal assault weapon ban expired in 2004. That year, there were only about 100,000 made by American manufacturers. Production skyrocketed after Barack Obama won the 2008 election, when domestic gunmakers manufactured almost 500,000 such weapons, and then again following the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. In 2013, the gun industry pumped out nearly two million assault-style rifles."

Edited May 2, 2019 by umsami

[Farrar]

9 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Its disenfranschisement.  They have been pushed out. Some gather with like others before hurting back. Join a community partnership, reach out, heal, house, employ and the anger will dissipate as they become included.

I could not disagree with this more. The vast majority of the mass shootings in America (and now the one in NZ) were by angry young white men. I understand that they feel disenfranchised, but that is not the same thing as actually being disenfranchised. When you've always had the largest share of the pie and suddenly more people are getting a larger share, it is not the same thing as losing your rights. I get that it emotionally feels that way, but I think we have to be clear that it is not actually that way.

I do think that reaching out and bringing people into the fold in various ways, increasing community ties, building our communities in new ways - those things could help. And people who do this work are heroes and I love them for it. But I do not believe it should come from a place of accepting the narrative that white guys in America are somehow underprivileged. That would only reinforce the idea that incels or racists have a right to be angry and lash out. And I think people who do not have it in them to do that work - Muslims, Jews, African-Americans, women, etc. etc. who have had to deal with racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny, Islamophobia, etc. for years and do not have the strength to do that work are not obliged to do it. 

[Farrar]

45 minutes ago, umsami said:

I think I'm tired.  I've been doing things since 9/11...and things have gotten worse, not better.

I think I just want to say to you that you have the right to be tired. I feel like the answer most often given to these questions is that we should engage. And I do think that can help - both us and the world. I know that I seriously never feel better about both myself and the universe than when I'm literally out there engaged in an action against the things that I think are corrupting our world. But also, it's okay to be tired and need to back down and protect yourself and your little community and family and disengage for awhile too.

I worry that everyone is doing that too much... but then, the world is too oppressive. We have to protect ourselves sometimes. Hugs to you, Umsami.

[Mabelen]

8 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

I've been so distracted I can't keep my quotes right obviously.  Anyway... 

The school he was at is "average" for Poway, but it is a highly academic district.  They have a 92 percent going on to college rate, 60 percent to four year college, average SAT of 1200.  Five National Merit Scholars.  Compare that to the school I attended with a 40 percent drop out rate, kids being bribed to attend class, feeling unsafe sometimes walking through the hall.  We had maybe 10-15 kids out of a starting class of 400  who were in AP classes.  Yes, being a misfit is pretty miserable but not anywhere near a reason for this this level of violence. 

 

8 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

is he in a school where intellectualism is valued?  many of these students are not, and they hear constant verbal abuse.  College is refreshing break where they find their tribe.

 

8 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

I've been so distracted I can't keep my quotes right obviously.  Anyway... 

The school he was at is "average" for Poway, but it is a highly academic district.  They have a 92 percent going on to college rate, 60 percent to four year college, average SAT of 1200.  Five National Merit Scholars.  Compare that to the school I attended with a 40 percent drop out rate, kids being bribed to attend class, feeling unsafe sometimes walking through the hall.  We had maybe 10-15 kids out of a starting class of 400  who were in AP classes.  Yes, being a misfit is pretty miserable but not anywhere near a reason for this this level of violence. 

 

SanDiegoMom is right. This is a very academic district. This particular school is one of the lesser achieving high schools in the district, which is actually a good thing, because in some of the higher achieving schools there is a much more competitive culture and stressed out kids yearning a spot at highly selective colleges. This school offers regular Physics plus the three AP Physics 1, AP Physics C Mechanics, and AP Physics C Electronics and Magnetism combo in a 2 year period, so it’s not lacking in any way, it’s just more laid back. There was a district wide survey done recently and the comments from the school community were overwhelmingly positive, commending the school for its culture and climate of diversity, acceptance, and inclusivity.

 

[Mabelen]

1 minute ago, Plum said:

I grew up in N San Diego County and competed many times against the Poway School district back when they only had the one huge overpopulated school. They were our main competition in band and we were the underdogs while they were a juggernaut. They were a highly academic school that also supported the arts. I remember the school had just finished a new performing theater that was nicer than any we had ever performed in. IIRC it was a conservative area where many parents were doctor and lawyers and compared to my school, the kids had more expectations put upon them. Of course, that was the early  90’s so it’s probably changed quite a bit since then. 

However

I don’t see what that has to do with why anyone would decide to shoot as many people as possible. There’s something fundamentally lacking there. 

The connection was with the fact that the shooter may have felt like a misfit at the school because he was a high achieving student.

Mount Carmel has won the Band competition for the last 4 years in a row. They have an impressive program. 

[Carol in Cal.]

1.  Develop a set of standards and expectations around morals and behavior and adopt them broadly.  Teach everyone that certain kinds of things are unthinkable.  Point to good examples of moral uprightness throughout schoolbooks and entertainment media.

2.  Improve mental health treatment and care and its coverage by medical insurance and access to it.

3.  Explicitly teach the responsibilities of democratic citizenship--including self-regulation and personal character as well as civic engagement.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Carol in Cal.

[LarlaB]

I realized that I view shootings more akin to major traffic accidents...I live near Denver so to be blunt, there is always some sort of murder/violence/stabbing/shooting/assault in the news in any given week. It’s not ok and not acceptable,  but is a part of our world. 

I think guns and violence are a part of our mainstream culture in the US.  that’s probably not stated well but IMHO it’s not an anomaly.  Just as we cannot fully prevent DUIs, stabbings, assaults, we cannot fully prevent gun violence. Of course it’s not ok. There are many things that are no OK . Etc I’ve come to accept that gun violence is a part of our world today.

And it’s just as painful to me as the guy who strangled his wife and two small kids, the woman who cut out the baby of another woman and the Uber rider who had a psychotic break and attacked his driver.  Or the 18 wheeler driver who couldn’t read English and his loss of brakes caused him to miss the runaway truck off ramp and caused a 28 car pile up and resulted in the deaths of 4 people. All of those things happened in my part do the world in the last few years .

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, there is no 'again' for me.

I grew up in a violent household and I spent my formative years living in cities where street violence against women was common enough to be normalish.  And I knew of households where the wife wanted to leave and the husband credibly threatened to kill her if she did, and I knew that he would probably get away with that.  

So I have thought about this a lot over the years, and again I think that the main thing is to make personal violence completely unthinkable.  I further thing that it is possible.  The other stuff in my list would be helpful but that one thing is the primary shift that we need.

[Carol in Cal.]

7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I wish I had your optimism! 

What do you think could make this possible ?

What makes me think that it is possible is that I have been to Japan, a place that has domestic violence (and shouldn't) but where women are safe on the street.  Somehow that is the norm.  So I figure that it's possible.  How they got there and how we can get there I have no idea.  But existence has been proven to my satisfaction, so...

[Carrie12345]

17 hours ago, emba56 said:

It’s compassion fatigue. One drawback to the everpresent media and instant worldwide communication is that we are asked to care, all the tome, about people all over the world, and we can’t. Yes, every person on earth is equally valuable, but we don’t have the mental capacity.

So much this.
I feel terrible about not getting fully outraged.  Not that it doesn’t affect me at all or that I’m putting my head in the sand, but I have a lengthy list of atrocities to be outraged over, and it’s crippling when I give in. Like, lie in bed, eat junk, ignore my family, and suffer wave after wave of anxiety over the future.  And I need to resist that as much as possible in order to have a life worth living.

I do get into bursts of activism on all sorts of issues, but I can’t sustain that all the time.

[Skippy]

The answer is: Love one another. AKA: Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is the message of those from the past that made a difference for good, like Martin Luther King, Jr. I don't know of anyone out there that is preaching this message that is allowed an audience today.

The extremists have the stage today, the bullies and bigots on the far left and far right who preach hate, division, and violence. They are anti-Jew, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-black, anti-white, and/or anti-Latino. They are the ones who yell at each other on the cable news, in Congress, and on the Internet.

"Someone must have sense enough and religion enough to cut off the chain of hate and evil, and this can only be done through love."  -MLK, Jr.

 

[ktgrok]

22 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Its disenfranschisement.  They have been pushed out. Some gather with like others before hurting back. Join a community partnership, reach out, heal, house, employ and the anger will dissipate as they become included.

No. Young white men are not disenfranchised. They are just not totally in control anymore. Giving up being totally in control to share that control and rights with others in a more equitable way doesn't equal disenfranchisement. It's like when a toddle his hoarding all the toy cars at preschool and you insist he give one to his friend to play with. He'll cry that you took "his" car and it isn't fair, but he certainly isn't being persecuted. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Skippy said:

The answer is: Love one another. AKA: Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is the message of those from the past that made a difference for good, like Martin Luther King, Jr. I don't know of anyone out there that is preaching this message that is allowed an audience today.

The extremists have the stage today, the bullies and bigots on the far left and far right who preach hate, division, and violence. They are anti-Jew, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-black, anti-white, and/or anti-Latino. They are the ones who yell at each other on the cable news, in Congress, and on the Internet.

"Someone must have sense enough and religion enough to cut off the chain of hate and evil, and this can only be done through love."  -MLK, Jr.

 

Moral Monday? Jesus Movement? 

[Frances]

8 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I'd kinda had Japan pegged as actually not that great on street harassment for women ( or women's safety more generally)

 

 

My sister lived there for ten years in the 90s and said she felt safe going anywhere alone at anytime of the day or night in Tokyo. I don’t know how it is now.

[ktgrok]

29 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 sorry. We aren't talking about white men who would have been in control.  these are not youth with options like that.  

also you are ignoring other cultures as you go for just your preferred subgroup target...you can't cherrypick and ignore the rest if you want to solve the issue.

these are young men who have been shoved to the fringes. they need a way back in, and those who live in communities who provide that path as well as are committed to inclusion are seeing success.  as Dawn says on the other thread, mental health counseling is needed for K12 in many many areas...but what she doesn't say is that its there in others.

This is end of college semester for many.  I personally know two who were pulled out of class for apparent depression and given mental health counseling and other support.  There are that many eyes on the student body, and that much support available at schools who are supportive of ALL subgroups. Inclusiveness matters.

Who are not youth with options like that? Are you referring to the most recent shooter, who was at a good school, in a good area? The rich white guy (well, he was til he blew his money gambling) who shot up Las Vegas? The kids at columbine who certainly had a wide open future?

[YaelAldrich]

14 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

What makes me think that it is possible is that I have been to Japan, a place that has domestic violence (and shouldn't) but where women are safe on the street.  Somehow that is the norm.  So I figure that it's possible.  How they got there and how we can get there I have no idea.  But existence has been proven to my satisfaction, so...

In Japan, people (both men and women) are safe from violent crime.  There is however a stream/streak of harassment that happens to women.  This is why there are women's only cars on some subway lines in Tokyo and other large cities.  But to walk around at night as a woman?  Totally and completely safe.  There is DV in Japan but I think it dying out (along with marriage sadly).  A difference is that guns are almost impossible to own, so you can beat a woman but you can't shoot her.

[Rosie_0801]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

No. Young white men are not disenfranchised. They are just not totally in control anymore. Giving up being totally in control to share that control and rights with others in a more equitable way doesn't equal disenfranchisement. It's like when a toddle his hoarding all the toy cars at preschool and you insist he give one to his friend to play with. He'll cry that you took "his" car and it isn't fair, but he certainly isn't being persecuted. 

 

Housing prices are a form of disenfranchisement. Here, anyway.

[shawthorne44]

The thing to remember is that the chance of your kid being shot while at school has NOT gone up.  Here is an article from NPR, so it isn't from a pro-gun source. 

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/15/593831564/the-disconnect-between-perceived-danger-in-u-s-schools-and-reality

There was at least one school shooting at the different high schools DH and I attended while we were there.    It wasn't news beyond the local area and they didn't even shut down the school.   They offered counseling to anyone that needed it and the reaction was eye-rolls from the general population.

Whereas a few years ago an acquaintance of ours was shot in his driveway in the middle of the day.   They locked down the high school even though it wasn't particularly close.  The news reports boiled down to "He was shot because he was a gold dealer (with the same tone as if it were a drug dealer) and the High School was inconvenienced.  "
 

 

[Skippy]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now. 

History proves that this is just untrue, unless one believes the whitewashed version of history (Pilgrims fleeing persecution and establishing freedom of religion for all). The Catholics persecuted (meaning hanged) the French Protestants. The English Protestants persecuted the Catholics. The Puritans persecuted the Quakers. These things continued after the colonies became the United States. The Anglicans persecuted the Baptists and Presbyterians. Protestants continued persecution of Catholics in the 19th century. (And I am not even mentioning the persecution of the Mormons.) There have been many instances of church bombings/fires/and shootings continuing to the present day. A church that was a pivotal location for civil rights activities was bombed in Birmingham killing four little girls. There was a mass shooting by a white supremacist at a church in Charleston at a prayer service killing nine. 

I don't subscribe to limiting compassion. Unfortunately, historically, there has been enough persecution to go around (and I am not the type who thinks "Happy Holidays" is persecution. I am talking about execution, imprisonment, removal of children from parents, burning homes and places of worship, etc.).

[ChocolateReignRemix]

12 minutes ago, Skippy said:

History proves that this is just untrue, unless one believes the whitewashed version of history (Pilgrims fleeing persecution and establishing freedom of religion for all). The Catholics persecuted (meaning hanged) the French Protestants. The English Protestants persecuted the Catholics. The Puritans persecuted the Quakers. These things continued after the colonies became the United States. The Anglicans persecuted the Baptists and Presbyterians. Protestants continued persecution of Catholics in the 19th century. (And I am not even mentioning the persecution of the Mormons.) There have been many instances of church bombings/fires/and shootings continuing to the present day. A church that was a pivotal location for civil rights activities was bombed in Birmingham killing four little girls. There was a mass shooting by a white supremacist at a church in Charleston at a prayer service killing nine. 

I don't subscribe to limiting compassion. Unfortunately, historically, there has been enough persecution to go around (and I am not the type who thinks "Happy Holidays" is persecution. I am talking about execution, imprisonment, removal of children from parents, burning homes and places of worship, etc.).

 

Claiming the bolded as acts targeting Christians is intellectually dishonest.  In both cases the targets were African Americans who happened to be Christian.

[Skippy]

8 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Claiming the bolded as acts targeting Christians is intellectually dishonest.  In both cases the targets were African Americans who happened to be Christian.

I think it is factually incorrect to state that "Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now." 

You may leave those you picked out off the list if you think the fact that they were Christians was not relevant and replace them with recent burnings and shootings at white churches if you prefer. For example, there was one in Antioch, TN where I think the congregants were white. There was a fire in a Catholic Church in Arizona yesterday that is thought to be arson, but I am not sure of the race of those congregants.

[Skippy]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I note that you did not address my request for members of the "far left" who are bigoted against Jews. 

Please read carefully and notice the "and/or." Thanks.

9 hours ago, Skippy said:

The extremists have the stage today, the bullies and bigots on the far left and far right who preach hate, division, and violence. They are anti-Jew, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-black, anti-white, and/or anti-Latino.

Also, I don't like the tactic of demanding answers to any question someone may choose to ask. It doesn't make for polite conversation. 

[Crimson Wife]

19 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

   Improve mental health treatment and care and its coverage by medical insurance and access to it.

1000% this.

California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country and they keep getting stricter. Hasn't stopped mass shootings from happening in the state including the recent terrorist attack at the synagogue.

California also has an acute shortage of mental health professionals who are in-network for insurance, especially ones treating pediatric patients. I was told that in order for my special needs child to be seen by a psychiatrist I had to hospitalize her. That would be WAY overkill for the issues we were dealing with (acting out in class with the worst thing she did was throwing a chair, not in anyone's direction). So she's continuing to have medication management by the neurologist & that really isn't the proper specialist to be overseeing that.

The state can't force psychiatrists to accept insurance but there are things it could do like increase funding for pediatric psychiatry training slots at the UC medical schools.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

32 minutes ago, Skippy said:

I think it is factually incorrect to state that "Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now." 

You may leave those you picked out off the list if you think the fact that they were Christians was not relevant and replace them with recent burnings and shootings at white churches if you prefer. For example, there was one in Antioch, TN where I think the congregants were white. There was a fire in a Catholic Church in Arizona yesterday that is thought to be arson, but I am not sure of the race of those congregants.

The church burnings were again targeting African American churches.

The Sutherland Springs church was targeted because the shooter's ex-wife attended it.

The shooter in Antioch, TN claimed his attack was in response to the shooting at the black church in Charleston, SC.

You aren't making your case very well.

[Skippy]

4 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

You aren't making your case very well.

I am not worried too much because it only requires one case of any kind of persecution at any time in the entire history of the United States to refute the claim that was made ("never.. any kind... not inthe past or now"). The one brick thrown above is enough to refute it.

I know you said this one doesn't count, but I disagree. Atheist kills 26 people in Texas church shooting:

https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/ex-friends-say-shooter-was-creepy-atheist-who-berated-religious-people/

[Skippy]

12 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

You may not like the tactic but you're the one who made the claim about far left bigots. Who are these far left bigots? 

And you are the one that makes outrageous claims that there is not one instance of persecution of any Christian in the entire history of the U.S., and apparently there is also not even one bigot of any kind on the entire far left.

Nope, still not biting.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

8 minutes ago, Skippy said:

I am not worried too much because it only requires one case of any kind of persecution at any time in the entire history of the United States to refute the claim that was made ("never.. any kind... not inthe past or now"). The one brick thrown above is enough to refute it.

I know you said this one doesn't count, but I disagree. Atheist kills 26 people in Texas church shooting:

https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/ex-friends-say-shooter-was-creepy-atheist-who-berated-religious-people/

First, I didn't make that claim.

Second, you started off just randomly calling any attack involving a church as anti-Christian so it is hard to take you seriously.

Edited May 2, 2019 by ChocolateReignRemix

[Skippy]

"Second, you started off just randomly calling any attack involving a church as anti-Christian so its hard to take you seriously."

I never said that any attack involving a church was "anti-Christian." 

5 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Christians have never be subject to any kind of persecution in the United States; not inthe past or now. 

I was listing times when Christians were "subject to any kind of persecution." There is a difference.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Skippy
Sorry, missed the initial quote and don't know how to add it back in correctly.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I will also add that anyone who thinks citing one act against a group as evidence of systemic persecution is someone who doesn't grasp what real persecution looks like.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Just now, Skippy said:

I never said that any attack involving a church was "anti-Christian."

You certainly implied it when you used the Birmingham church bombing and the Charleston shooting as evidence of Christian persecution. 

[Skippy]

2 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

I will also add that anyone who thinks citing one act against a group as evidence of systemic persecution is someone who doesn't grasp what real persecution looks like.

But "evidence of systemic persecution" was not the bar here. Any evidence of any kind of persecution ever in the history of the U.S. was the bar. You are changing the topic.

[Skippy]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 Yes, it might be overgeneralized. 

This is all I was saying.

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

American Christians do not live in fear for their lives for being Christians. You can't dispute this. 

Agreed. I was never disputing this.

[Pen]

Ouch.

 My comment on the way this thread is sounding.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

10 minutes ago, Skippy said:

But "evidence of systemic persecution" was not the bar here. Any evidence of any kind of persecution ever in the history of the U.S. was the bar. You are changing the topic.

I am not sure rare, random attacks qualify under the general understanding of persecution. Christians have been, and currently still are, a dominant group in the U.S. so claiming persecution is a stretch.

[Pen]

Possibly of interest— link to whole interview in the comments: