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2E dyslexic/dysgraphic - AP or dual enrollment credit?

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This high school journey is getting more real for older ds. Basically, we have to make some decisions relating to next year's schooling that either place him on a path for AP in science and math or in prerequisites for dual enrollment credit. His current plan is to major in aerospace engineering at a major state university, such as Ohio State or Georgia Tech. I don't think he has the desire to try for Ivy League or extremely competitive schools (and I'm not sure he'd have the test scores anyway, although he might with accommodations).

We definitely won't bother with APs in humanities. It's too much of a time suck for elective credits. What about math and science? Did your 2E engineering students do well with AP exams? Was the testing and timing just too much stress and work? Would dual credit be a better option? Ds has a high degree of accuracy in his work and strong depth of material and conceptual knowledge , but he is SLOW. I'm concerned about AP, both coursework pacing and test, in terms of how much time it will take him to study. Thoughts? What worked best for your 2E engineering students?

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Your issues are whether the prospective school would transfer the DE credit or put him into a higher level class in their own program (more likely). Then you have the issue of whether he's likely to botch the AP exam due to processing speed and lose everything.

We chose to do only DE with dd because the likelihood of her doing well on AP exams with that pace was nil. Haven't done engineering for her, but dh is an engineer and we have more in our circle of friends. You might want to look for a smaller, high quality engineering program where he can get some attention. Aerospace might nix that, I don't know. Anyways, it's something to consider. Like if he gets some TA who speaks english so poorly your ds can't understand him, what happens... So having a higher percentage of profs instead of TAs can help.

Edited by PeterPan
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Good grief.  One of my son's mandatory writing partners is a foreign national who can barely speak English let alone write it, so my dyslexic/dysgraphic/EF compromised DS is carrying the writing load for the two of them in a mandatory humanities class.  He waited too long to drop the class or enroll in another...SO talk to me in a couple of weeks about that...

DE classes count towards college GPA, so if your son does poorly or wants to improve his GPA, he'll be retaking the class.  He must also apply for the accommodations through the uni.

I'm with PeterPan.  Discover what future uni will accept as credits.  Will they even accept AP's?  

If you are wanting accommodations for AP class exams, which would likely be typing and extended test taking, you apply through the College Board.  We opted no AP because of the CB.  I know some have received accommodation through them, but I passed after sitting on hold for 45 minutes on two occasions simply to request the paperwork to apply for accommodations.  I do not like those people,  Heavens, I do not like those people.  

Good luck with whatever you decide.

ETA:  Hoping that 8Fill will pop over.  Her 2e dyslexic did very well with physics and DE prior to full time college.

Edited by Heathermomster
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19 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

One of my son's mandatory writing partners is a foreign national who can barely speak English let alone write it,

Oh my. Well I hope he makes it through ok!! My dh hardly understands anyone with an accent, even british english or southern english. It's a definite issue, sigh. Will his semester end soon? Dd is doing finals this week. 

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7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Oh my. Well I hope he makes it through ok!! My dh hardly understands anyone with an accent, even british english or southern english. It's a definite issue, sigh. Will his semester end soon? Dd is doing finals this week. 

He will be finished on May 10th so needs to start packing soon.  He should be OK.  He's doing fine in his other classes, but we are trying to decide whether he should drop the scholarship and neck down to 9 hrs/semester.  

Edited by Heathermomster
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10 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

He will be finished on May 10th so needs to start packing soon.  He should be OK.  He's doing fine in his other classes, but we are trying to decide whether he should drop the scholarship and neck down to 9 hrs/semester.  

Yeah that's a challenge. My dd wanted to be in that 14/15 range, but her health is better at 12. She can carry that and maintain her scholarship. At 15, she was sick like 3X a semester, on antibiotics, steroids, passing out... So it will take longer, but it's still the right way to go.

What was he at this semester and how much of a decrease will the 9 be? And will changing away from freshman gen ed credits toward major classes help or make it worse? If there's a lot of writing for his major, that's rough. 

I think if he pursues an internship or something that gives him a life or some experience, it could be good. That's my dd's biggest complaint, that she doesn't DO right now or have a life. She has this need to move, create, cook, and she's trapped in a dorm. 

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49 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah that's a challenge. My dd wanted to be in that 14/15 range, but her health is better at 12. She can carry that and maintain her scholarship. At 15, she was sick like 3X a semester, on antibiotics, steroids, passing out... So it will take longer, but it's still the right way to go.

What was he at this semester and how much of a decrease will the 9 be? And will changing away from freshman gen ed credits toward major classes help or make it worse? If there's a lot of writing for his major, that's rough. 

I think if he pursues an internship or something that gives him a life or some experience, it could be good. That's my dd's biggest complaint, that she doesn't DO right now or have a life. She has this need to move, create, cook, and she's trapped in a dorm. 

I think he's currently taking 14 hours. I don't think he would suffer in his major by taking fewer classes.  

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39 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

I think he's currently taking 14 hours. I don't think he would suffer in his major by taking fewer classes.  

Can he keep his scholarship with 12? What's the lowest he can go? Is that 14 with four 3 credit classes and another 2 credit? Or even one credits? So many of dd's freshman classes were these 1 credit seminars that ate up time. But he probably has a good sense now of how it's going down and what he needs...

Edited by PeterPan

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AP grades are based on a single exam, and DE grades are based on multiple tests/quizzes etc.  I'd definitely go with the DE for a dyslexic/dysgraphic gifted kid. Make sure you keep ALL the paperwork for DE as some schools only accept the credit after evaluating every little thing.  We had to turn in: course description, course syllabus in the year the course was taken with chapters and topics covered, textbook name and edition, and either the final exam or a list of topic covered in the exam filled in a signed by the professor. 

Main problem with DE is that they are a time suck with having to travel to the university multiple times a week and at odd times of the day. 

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For us the choice depended on how much time there was in a day and course availability and depth.  Basically DE is one semester one period daily = AP is two semesters one period daily.  So, to take AP science, we had to allocate two periods daily due to the lab, sometimes also a weekend morning.  So DE American History, Econ, Psych etc is one semester, while AP is two, both transfer as 3 credits.  They arent electives here -- its expected that college prep students earn the Regents Advanced Diploma, with 4 years of English, 4 years SS, 4+ years math, etc.  We found that if middle school was honors level and reading comprehension is appropriate, DE is great and allows more to  transfer in to college, which lightens the college course load. If not, go slower with AP.    My dysgraphia kid had no trouble with DE or AP humanities due to reading comp. Remember a lot of material is available on audio.  The quality of the instructor plus the transportation were the deciding factors for us. 

Know that Aero has communication needs, you will never regret investing in good communication skills. Consider Public Speaking elective, drafting, and shop.

When you check out engineering schools, you'll see some start with Physics 1, Chem 1, and Calc 1 first semester.  Be prepared.  Also know that some do not accept AP Calc 1, but here in NY, do accept SUNY DE Calc or put the student in an honors version at the college rather than move them on.

 

Edited by HeighHo
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DS also took some classes through opencourseware, and then walked in and took the final exam to gain course credit.  That was his best, most efficient method. He could study on his own, learn at his own pace, not worry about taking the AP exam, and not have to travel to local uni.

Obviously, depends on the school.

 

Edited by lewelma
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5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

In the US you can just go to Transferologyhttps://www.transferology.com/  and find out what will transfer. If it's not listed, yes you'll need the syllabus. But odds are for basic things it will already have been done by someone else and be in there.

That is super cool. Didn't work for my ds, but great that you don't have to redo work that has been done before. 

 

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8 minutes ago, lewelma said:

DS also took some classes through opencourseware, and then walked in and took the final exam to gain course credit. 

That's such a smart idea. Was that a NZ thing or is it being done here? 

CLEP is another option in that vein. I had my dd CLEP something for english, I forget what. You could CLEP language, basically anything that was a strength. She seemed to do fine with it and passed nicely. She had pretty extensive background in the subject, so she ran through the guide and did the test. Now you wouldn't CLEP to a really premier college, sure, when you're trying to present yourself a certain way. But even OSU will have policies on what they take of CLEP. So just to knock out some gen ed stuff, sure it would be great for that. 

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Just now, PeterPan said:

That's such a smart idea. Was that a NZ thing or is it being done here? 

My older boy is studying in the USA at MIT. He can self-study and take the final exams for a number of courses (4 sciences and 5 math that I know of). 

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8 minutes ago, lewelma said:

That is super cool. Didn't work for my ds, but great that you don't have to redo work that has been done before. 

 

Here it's an issue because so many people are doing online and local DE. So we need to be able to see if the place where we'd be doing DE (which in our state is free if you apply) will transfer. There was a school dd was going to use to do a significant amount of DE her senior year and when she found out NOTHING would transfer to the university she thought she wanted, she totally changed plans. 

So checking with Transferology can save you a lot of heartache from putting time into things that aren't going to transfer and accomplish what you wanted.

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Even if the U website says a course will transfer into the student's program, the advisor still has to approve.  At son's U, that approval is done in advance, to prevent people from wasting their money.  Son  found a course he could use as a tech elective that said 'approved' on the U website, showed it to the advisor, who promptly said 'no way' -- he knew the prof, he knew the course well, and it didn't meet the depth req't at dc's U.  The course had changed since the last person transferred it in, and the website hadn't been updated.  The advisor basically said don't think anything DE or transfer is going to transfer in without approval,other than math from a SUNY 2 or 4 year. 

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In my state, the CCs have course transfer agreements with our State Unis.  I don't know how that works in other places, but maybe see if that is possible.   

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I was going to suggest/say what Heathermomster said - I looked at each school's website and they actually had a side-by-side list of course equivalents of what transferred and what did not.  Both of my kids received AA degrees and transferred seamlessly into universities in the state - one private, one state.  We also saved a lot of money doing it that way.  I suppose my dd could have done DE but we didn't feel that it was necessary.  Around here everyone is pro AP but in the end the acceptance in to the universities were the same for all students - whether they were AP or not.  If you have a struggling student - slow processing (my ds is very s l o w because of a major disability) be sure to really check out the services the university provides to those students who need that extra help to succeed.  Many large universities don't do much because they don't have to (I know, the laws, etc.) but they just don't.  There are plenty of other students without disabilities that can take their spot and it doesn't "cost" the university as much to educate them.  Very sad, but very true. 

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3 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

In my state, the CCs have course transfer agreements with our State Unis.  I don't know how that works in other places, but maybe see if that is possible.   

Yes, it was a smaller private christian university near us. And they were a nice school with grads who do fine and get jobs. Just for whatever reason, their stuff was really spotty on transferring, even for basics like freshman english. 

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Yes, the more it is out of the major, electives, the more likely it will be useful. But yeah there's lots of track record that some schools are really picky and accept zero DE or transfer credits. I'm not sure OSU is like that. In major, I wouldn't want to transfer anyway.

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On 5/2/2019 at 9:33 AM, Heathermomster said:

In my state, the CCs have course transfer agreements with our State Unis.  I don't know how that works in other places, but maybe see if that is possible.   

I think that is the case in our state too, but it probably also depends on your major. If it's in your major, taking it in house might trump agreements, but I am not sure.

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Have you considered SAT IIs as an alternative to AP/DE?  You don’t get college credit, but you definitely get validation of achievement.  Plus it’s easy to enroll in the tests and most are offered multiple times a year.  Plus they are all multiple choice.  That might be an easier format for some.  (I always liked knowing the correct answer was on the page, waiting for me to find it!)

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5 hours ago, kbutton said:

I think that is the case in our state too, but it probably also depends on your major. If it's in your major, taking it in house might trump agreements, but I am not sure.

Yes, reciprocity in our state within all publicly funded schools, INCLUDING TECH SCHOOLS. But not necessarily private to state and not necessarily for out of state.

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2 hours ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

Have you considered SAT IIs as an alternative to AP/DE?  You don’t get college credit, but you definitely get validation of achievement.  Plus it’s easy to enroll in the tests and most are offered multiple times a year.  Plus they are all multiple choice.

Is there an essay component? She'd still need to go through the stinking college boards for the accommodations. With my dd even a couple years ago, that was just too much hassle. People were having to file and refile multiple times. Now apparently you just submit your IEP/504, boom done. 

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I just checked, the SAT II subject tests are *all* multiple choice.  Yes, you have to go through the College Board for accommodations.

Also nice that you have some scheduling flexibility, it’s not just once a year like AP.

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At our high school, people take AP classes like any other class.  They get grades based on tests, essays, papers, homework, all the regular class stuff.  The AP test at the end may determine if they get college credit for it.  But even if they don't get a high enough score, they still got the benefit (and the grades) for a rigorous course.  That always seemed worthwhile to me, for its own sake, whether or not college credit came of it.  

But my oldest is just finishing her freshman year, so I haven't worried about it yet.  She'll take her first AP class next year (AP Human Geography).  Typically, kids in her track take a ton of AP classes jr and senior year.  Typical schedule for juniors is AP English Language, AP Calculus, Physics or AP Bio or AP Chem, and AP US History.  Typical schedule for senior year is AP English Literature, AP Calc BC or AP Stats, AP Government, and some kind of AP science.  Some kids also take AP foreign language, but she probably won't.   I don't necessarily love that that is the expectation, but the non AP (or for a few classes dual enrollment) courses are basically jokes and full of behavioral problems and teachers who don't even try.  

But I'm currently feeling kinda burned out on public school today.  (Grrrrr....long story)

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16 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, reciprocity in our state within all publicly funded schools, INCLUDING TECH SCHOOLS. But not necessarily private to state and not necessarily for out of state.

Ooh, the tech school information is really good to know...sometimes a few classes can mean the difference between a bachelor's and an associate's. Tucking this away for future reference.

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22 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, reciprocity in our state within all publicly funded schools, INCLUDING TECH SCHOOLS. But not necessarily private to state and not necessarily for out of state.

 

Even when there is a reciprocity agreement, there is no guarantee that a specific course applies to a particular degree program.  The course my son wanted to take and transfer from CC to State U is listed under reciprocity agreement, but could not be applied to his degree program - the course is not substantially equivalent.  it can be taken and transferred in, but it doesn't check off a req't for the degree program.  On the other hand, he was told the CC was the place to go for two courses, as his advisor didn't want him in the pre-med version at the U.   Additionally, one has to watch the credit hours and the progress toward degree time limits.  Working closely with advisor at U is recommended.

 

Edited by HeighHo
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