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Another Synagogue Shooting.... San Diego

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1 hour ago, Michelle Conde said:

The objection to "thoughts and prayers" is that, as a very general stereotype, those whose first response to tragedy is an exercise of faith are assumed to be likely to disagree on possible courses of action with those who respond differently, and so the latter use this reasoning you describe to justify deriding the faith of the former.

 

On what facts do you base your statement that :

and your implication that people who pray for victims do not honestly attempt to grapple with the causes of these tragedies?  Is it honestly based on something other than your assumptions about people with a different perspective from your own?

"Thoughts and prayers" are tossed around after every tragedy in this country but nothing changes. Nothing is ever addressed. 11 people were murdered 6 months ago in a synagogue in Pittsburgh. 1 was murdered this past weekend. Both shooters were motivated by the same ideology. I think it's pretty safe to assume that none of the "thoughts and prayers" folks were doing much of anything to stop the next neo-Nazi from shooting up another synagogue. 

2 people were murdered today at a college in North Carolina. Is anyone going to do anything to prevent another college shooting? I know some will do what they can but their first reaction won't be "thoughts and prayers." 

And BTW, "thoughts and prayers" are not an "exercise of faith." I'm a Christian and I pray for the victims of these tragedies but my first reaction is not "thoughts and prayers." I know how insensitive that is. 

ETA that the way that those who pray for the victims can show that they are trying to make things better is by actually addressing the issues. There have been some good discussions held in certain venues about anti-semitism and its connection to white supremacy. Don't get defensive when people are offended by "thoughts and prayers" because that makes this about you. 

ETA2 - the onus here is on us Christians to act and not just send platitudes that absolve us of guilt. Anti-semitism is deep in Christian history. 

 

Edited by Ordinary Shoes
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2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

"Thoughts and prayers" are tossed around after every tragedy in this country but nothing changes. Nothing is ever addressed. 11 people were murdered 6 months ago in a synagogue in Pittsburgh. 1 was murdered this past weekend. Both shooters were motivated by the same ideology. I think it's pretty safe to assume that none of the "thoughts and prayers" folks were doing much of anything to stop the next neo-Nazi from shooting up another synagogue. 

2 people were murdered today at a college in North Carolina. Is anyone going to do anything to prevent another college shooting? I know some will do what they can but their first reaction won't be "thoughts and prayers." 

And BTW, "thoughts and prayers" are not an "exercise of faith." I'm a Christian and I pray for the victims of these tragedies but my first reaction is not "thoughts and prayers." I know how insensitive that is. 

ETA that the way that those who pray for the victims can show that they are trying to make things better is by actually addressing the issues. There have been some good discussions held in certain venues about anti-semitism and its connection to white supremacy. Don't get defensive when people are offended by "thoughts and prayers" because that makes this about you. 

ETA2 - the onus here is on us Christians to act and not just send platitudes that absolve us of guilt. Anti-semitism is deep in Christian history. 

 

 

Why do you "think it's pretty safe to assume that none of the "thoughts and prayers" folks were doing much of anything to stop the next Neo-Nazi from shooting up another synagogue"?  Seriously.  How could you possibly think that is a safe assumption?  What do you base this idea on?  With millions of people of faith in this country, you seriously think this is a safe assumption?  

Praying for those who are suffering and asking a divine being to aid and comfort them in their suffering absolutely is an exercise of faith.  It is not a platitude, it has nothing to do with guilt, and it is not an indicator of what else the person offering the prayer may or may not also do.  It is a sincere effort to reach out and seek for what can aid the victims most in their hour of need.  You pray for the victims, but it's only okay to do so if it's not one's first reaction? Why?  

 

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8 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Why do you "think it's pretty safe to assume that none of the "thoughts and prayers" folks were doing much of anything to stop the next Neo-Nazi from shooting up another synagogue"?  Seriously.  How could you possibly think that is a safe assumption?  What do you base this idea on?  With millions of people of faith in this country, you seriously think this is a safe assumption?  

Praying for those who are suffering and asking a divine being to aid and comfort them in their suffering absolutely is an exercise of faith.  It is not a platitude, it has nothing to do with guilt, and it is not an indicator of what else the person offering the prayer may or may not also do.  It is a sincere effort to reach out and seek for what can aid the victims most in their hour of need.  You pray for the victims, but it's only okay to do so if it's not one's first reaction? Why?  

 

If the hundred million or so Christians in this country were interested in stopping another Neo-Nazi shooting, or another college shooting (guess we'll be due for another one of those in about a month), then they would stop. 

It's really that simple. 

You're deliberately misunderstanding the issue here. No one is saying that praying is worthless. Make an effort to understand where the objections to "thoughts and prayers" are coming from. And before you turn this into being about you (again), the onus here is you. You are of the majority faith. You belong to the faith tradition of the shooter. They don't need to understand you. You need to understand them. 

Have you done the work to understand the very deep roots of anti-semitism in Christianity or white supremacy in the United States and how they are intermingled? 

 

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Quote

There is something deeply hypocritical about praying for a problem you are unwilling to resolve, renowned Christian theologian Miroslav Volf pointed out to me.

Why thoughts and prayers is starting to sound so profane

Quote

The repetition of "thoughts and prayers" is a product of the repetition of mass shootings. And to #ThoughtsAndPrayers critics, the repetition of mass shootings exists because no one is doing much else besides offering thoughts and prayers.

How 'thoughts and prayers' became a meme

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12 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

On what facts do you base your statement that :

and your implication that people who pray for victims do not honestly attempt to grapple with the causes of these tragedies?  Is it honestly based on something other than your assumptions about people with a different perspective from your own?

Not the PP, but as someone who both prays for victims & their families and someone who grapples with the causes of these tragedies, I can say that most people I know that offer "thoughts and prayers" have no intention of grappling with the causes of these tragedies. I have tried to get my peers to grapple with the reality we find ourselves in, to engage in thoughtful discourse about causes and prevention. Do you know what happens? They refuse. They simply attribute the shootings to "sin" and say that the world won't ever be rid of it until Jesus returns. I agree with them on both points, but I see value in all life as sacred and therefore these things must be grappled with from a spiritual and practical perspective. They see any attempt to engage in discourse as a threat to their second amendment rights, so for them, it's the end of the discussion. We can't make it to the point of discussing racial and/or ethnic motivations and the systemic issues that allow such attitudes to fester and flourish because they won't engage in that thoughtfully grappling with the real, root issues that are making this violence acceptable.

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16 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If the hundred million or so Christians in this country were interested in stopping another Neo-Nazi shooting, or another college shooting (guess we'll be due for another one of those in about a month), then they would stop. 

It's really that simple. 

You're deliberately misunderstanding the issue here. No one is saying that praying is worthless. Make an effort to understand where the objections to "thoughts and prayers" are coming from. And before you turn this into being about you (again), the onus here is you. You are of the majority faith. You belong to the faith tradition of the shooter. They don't need to understand you. You need to understand them. 

Have you done the work to understand the very deep roots of anti-semitism in Christianity or white supremacy in the United States and how they are intermingled? 

 

The college shooting happened yesterday. UNC Charlotte - two dead, four more injured.

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45 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If the hundred million or so Christians in this country were interested in stopping another Neo-Nazi shooting, or another college shooting (guess we'll be due for another one of those in about a month), then they would stop. 

It's really that simple. 

You're deliberately misunderstanding the issue here. No one is saying that praying is worthless. Make an effort to understand where the objections to "thoughts and prayers" are coming from. And before you turn this into being about you (again), the onus here is you. You are of the majority faith. You belong to the faith tradition of the shooter. They don't need to understand you. You need to understand them. 

Have you done the work to understand the very deep roots of anti-semitism in Christianity or white supremacy in the United States and how they are intermingled? 

 

Not sure I can agree with this statement.  Not sure why you believe Christians can directly stop the actions of others.

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15 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Not sure I can agree with this statement.  Not sure why you believe Christians can directly stop the actions of others.

If all of the Christians in this country voted for candidates that supported sensible gun control, we would have gun control. 

This is a democracy and there are plenty of public policies that could make these tragedies much less likely to happen (like they rarely happen in other countries). 

 

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3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If all of the Christians in this country voted for candidates that supported sensible gun control, we would have gun control. 

This is a democracy and there are plenty of public policies that could make these tragedies much less likely to happen (like they rarely happen in other countries). 

 

1.) Depends on what you define as "sensible", doesn't it?

2.) You didn't say less likely to happen,  You said they would stop.

You also specified the white supremacist shootings, which as terrorist attacks would be the ones less affected by most gun control proposals that been put forth.

Edited by ChocolateReignRemix
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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If all of the Christians in this country voted for candidates that supported sensible gun control, we would have gun control. 

This is a democracy and there are plenty of public policies that could make these tragedies much less likely to happen (like they rarely happen in other countries). 

 

That was what I took as your meaning. Since Christians are in the majority in this country over other religions and "nones", they are the ones who can have an impact on laws.

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1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If the hundred million or so Christians in this country were interested in stopping another Neo-Nazi shooting, or another college shooting (guess we'll be due for another one of those in about a month), then they would stop. 

It's really that simple. 

You're deliberately misunderstanding the issue here. No one is saying that praying is worthless. Make an effort to understand where the objections to "thoughts and prayers" are coming from. And before you turn this into being about you (again), the onus here is you. You are of the majority faith. You belong to the faith tradition of the shooter. They don't need to understand you. You need to understand them. 

Have you done the work to understand the very deep roots of anti-semitism in Christianity or white supremacy in the United States and how they are intermingled? 

 

Oh this is utter nonsense. I know the church he attended.  I know the high school he went to.  This is not a Christians-being-antisemitic or his-family-being- cloistered-and-lacking-diversity issue.  Every believer in the world coming together cannot stamp out the evil in the hearts of other men, they can’t even stamp out all the sin in their OWN.  Not this side of heaven.

Might there be some steps that can be taken?  Potentially, though in this case and in one of the most gun controlled states in the union, the common checks didn’t catch it.  Nobody is talking about this being a ticking time bomb. He rejected mainstream political parties including the president, and didn’t even just hit one particular faith.  Remember he torched a mosque too. 

Looking for people to blame other than the shooter is a common impulse, but that doesn’t make it right.  

Edited by Arctic Mama
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5 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Oh this is utter nonsense. I know the church he attended.  I know the high school he went to.  This is not a Christians-being-antisemitic or his-family-being- cloistered-and-lacking-diversity issue.  Every believer in the world coming together cannot stamp out the evil in the hearts of other men, they can’t even stamp out all the sin in their OWN.  Not this side of heaven.

Might there be some steps that can be taken?  Potentially, though in this case and in one of the most gun controlled states in the union, the common checks didn’t catch it.  Nobody is talking about this being a ticking time bomb. He rejected mainstream political parties including the president, and didn’t even just hit one particular faith.  Remember he torched a mosque too. 

Looking for people to blame other than the shooter is a common impulse, but that doesn’t make it right.  

This is exactly the kind of response that proves my point. Shrug - we can't do anything. 

How is this not a "Christians being anti-semitic" when he stated clearly in his manifesto that he was a Christian and hated Jews? 

Did I say anything about his family being cloistered? No. Although I do know that he comes from a white, American family. This is relevant although you will likely dismiss that as "utter nonsense" too. BTW, I too come from a white, American, Christian family. 

The fact that he torched a mosque is very relevant because it demonstrates the connection between anti-semitism and white supremacy. A connection he laid out very clearly in his manifesto. 

Looking at his actions in the context of history is painful. Most people aren't willing to do it. 

 

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3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If the hundred million or so Christians in this country were interested in stopping another Neo-Nazi shooting, or another college shooting (guess we'll be due for another one of those in about a month), then they would stop. 

It's really that simple. 

No, it is not.  You are doing exactly what I described in my prior post: assuming that those whose first response to these tragedies is prayer are likely to disagree with you on possible responses, and using that assumption to justify your reaction to all of them.  You have given zero basis for your assumptions when asked.

You're deliberately misunderstanding the issue here. No one is saying that praying is worthless.

On 4/27/2019 at 2:18 PM, umsami said:

Hopes and prayers DO NOTHING.

 

14 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

. . . just send platitudes that absolve us of guilt.

Make an effort to understand where the objections to "thoughts and prayers" are coming from.

I have made the effort to understand where people who take offense at those who respond with prayer are coming from.  I have talked to a number of them, read their work trying to understand their reactions, and haven't yet found one who didn't base their reaction on the assumption that people who pray first will probably not support their desired gun-control measures, so they feel justified in preemptively berating them for their response.

And before you turn this into being about you (again), the onus here is you. You are of the majority faith. You belong to the faith tradition of the shooter. They don't need to understand you. You need to understand them. 

Wow.  Not sure where you came up with the assumption that I am from the faith tradition of the shooter, but I'm going to give a greater weight and importance to the opinion of my Jewish friend who is asking for prayer at this time than to that of bystanders who deride people of faith for praying for the victims.

Have you done the work to understand the very deep roots of anti-semitism in Christianity or white supremacy in the United States and how they are intermingled? 

Yes.

 

Edited by Michelle Conde
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2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Oh this is utter nonsense. I know the church he attended.  I know the high school he went to.  This is not a Christians-being-antisemitic or his-family-being- cloistered-and-lacking-diversity issue.  Every believer in the world coming together cannot stamp out the evil in the hearts of other men, they can’t even stamp out all the sin in their OWN.  Not this side of heaven.

Might there be some steps that can be taken?  Potentially, though in this case and in one of the most gun controlled states in the union, the common checks didn’t catch it.  Nobody is talking about this being a ticking time bomb. He rejected mainstream political parties including the president, and didn’t even just hit one particular faith.  Remember he torched a mosque too. 

Looking for people to blame other than the shooter is a common impulse, but that doesn’t make it right.  

 

He's still living at home with his parents and they have no clue that he's spending all that time on 8chan /pol/? Right off the bat, I am giving them a side eye. If you haven't read that garbage, you really should.

https://8ch.net/pol/index.html

 

 

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And whose guns were they? Do we know that? Why does a 19 year old have access to a rifle and ammo? As of 2019, you had to be 21 in California. So, where did this gun come from? Again, I am giving the side eye. I was in the Army, and am the daughter and granddaughter of police officers, but I don't let my kids go into homes with guns. I wish our country would do something about this violence already. I am so so sick of it. 

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7 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

And whose guns were they? Do we know that? Why does a 19 year old have access to a rifle and ammo? As of 2019, you had to be 21 in California. So, where did this gun come from? Again, I am giving the side eye. I was in the Army, and am the daughter and granddaughter of police officers, but I don't let my kids go into homes with guns. I wish our country would do something about this violence already. I am so so sick of it. 

He was 18 in 2018 so it could have been purchased then.

Could have been purchased illegally.

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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

He's still living at home with his parents and they have no clue that he's spending all that time on 8chan /pol/? Right off the bat, I am giving them a side eye. If you haven't read that garbage, you really should.

https://8ch.net/pol/index.html

 

 

 

I have no intention of going there but I have read some of what’s there and I find it too disturbing to read more myself. I do not want to end up with ptsd.

As far as parents not noticing, I can see how it could happen. I have an adult child living at home, she is working and saving for grad school. I don’t monitor any of her online activities. She is an adult, like the terrorist. I monitor my younger child’s online activities, but at some point you have to let go and trust that they will have taken your lessons and advice. He was a full time college student, and part of his college swim team, in the summer at least he worked as a lifeguard. Honestly, it probably wasn’t in his parents’ radar that he was up to no good. What signs could have they noticed? Moodiness? Increased anger? What if he had always been generally moody and prone to anger? One of the people at his church said that he was always very quiet. I mean, unless he was actually sharing his new ideas with the family, I don’t know that those signs would be red flags pointing to radicalization.

 

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

And whose guns were they? Do we know that? Why does a 19 year old have access to a rifle and ammo? As of 2019, you had to be 21 in California. So, where did this gun come from? Again, I am giving the side eye. I was in the Army, and am the daughter and granddaughter of police officers, but I don't let my kids go into homes with guns. I wish our country would do something about this violence already. I am so so sick of it. 

 

I read that he had said he bought the gun legally. I am sure the authorities will find out exactly how it  happened. I also wish things were different here with regards to guns. It’s a great source of stress for me. I hate it.

Edited by Mabelen
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On 4/27/2019 at 3:18 PM, umsami said:

Hopes and prayers DO NOTHING.

I respectfully but completely disagree with this statement. I believe prayer to be very powerful, and have witnessed this power many times in my lifetime. I am so thankful that I can seek God in prayer!

This weekend Tennessee suffered the “deadliest homicide event in Tennessee in at least 20 years.” Seven people were killed. None of them were killed with guns. They "died from either blunt force trauma or sharp force injuries." The crime scene was unimaginably gruesome. The only gun used was the one used by law enforcement to injure and apprehend the perpetrator. Yes, guns in evil hands can do a lot of terrible things, but removing them is not the answer. I wish it were that easy. Removing guns would be so much easier than changing evil hearts.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/crime/7-sumner-co-murder-victims-died-of-blunt-force-trauma-or-sharp-force-injuries-me-says/51-8d8d94f6-d0b1-4fed-a107-14a47063cc6d

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Of course parents can fail to notice online radicalisation of a teen.

Or do y'all not believe the Muslim parents who had no idea either ? One can believe and affirm that Christianity needs to grapple with its anti-Semitism (though I do believe that a boy from a moderately Christian family is more likely to be being radicalised online re anti-Semistism by either the alt right, or social leftists, than he is by his mainstream church) and not automatically assert that 1. he learned it round the dinner table and 2. that mom and dad gave him the covert thumbs up, just as one doesn't (or shouldn't!) automatically blame the moderately Muslim parents of a radicalized Muslim teen. 

If evidence emerges that the killer was being raised on a diet of anti-semistism at home, then I will happily allocate blame to the parents. Until then, my person feeling is 'there but for the grace'...the older I get, the less I feel I know about parenting, and the less sure I am that parenting is the all powerful influence in our children's lives, especially when kids are exposed to a whole series of malign actors online. Teens in particular are susceptible to other influence.

I think everyone should read the (very brave and pretty darn honest) memoir by the mom of one of the Columbine killers to understand just how much a parent of a teen can NOT know, often because it is being deliberately hidden from her, often because our bias is always towards our own children, or because our minds just don't go there. Just as it's hard for a parent to anticipate  that her child will murder his classmates, and then kill himself, I expect it's hard to anticipate that her child will murder Jewish worshippers at a Synagogue and burn down a Mosque.

If the guns were the parents' guns, that's a whole other thing. I have zero issue holding the gun owner's morally culpable for enabling their use by this young criminal. 

Edited by StellaM
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27 minutes ago, Skippy said:

I respectfully but completely disagree with this statement. I believe prayer to be very powerful, and have witnessed this power many times in my lifetime. I am so thankful that I can seek God in prayer!

This weekend Tennessee suffered the “deadliest homicide event in Tennessee in at least 20 years.” Seven people were killed. None of them were killed with guns. They "died from either blunt force trauma or sharp force injuries." The crime scene was unimaginably gruesome. The only gun used was the one used by law enforcement to injure and apprehend the perpetrator. Yes, guns in evil hands can do a lot of terrible things, but removing them is not the answer. I wish it were that easy. Removing guns would be so much easier than changing evil hearts.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/crime/7-sumner-co-murder-victims-died-of-blunt-force-trauma-or-sharp-force-injuries-me-says/51-8d8d94f6-d0b1-4fed-a107-14a47063cc6d

 

Well, it can be part of an answer in certain contexts. It's been part of the answer in AU, and hopefully will be in NZ too.

Whether or not it can be the answer in American contexts - well, that's for the American people to decide. 

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On 5/1/2019 at 1:04 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

Prove that you've done the work. What have you read? What have you done? 

Wow, who’s trying to make this about me?

Let’s see, I haven’t been documenting my sources over the years for the sake of justifying myself to internet strangers.  I read a book about the Inquisition and the Spanish Decree of Expulsion from the college library.  I read a section in a textbook on the Revolutionary War period about Jews’ treatment in the different colonies and after the states were united.  I read in a book on Bohemian genealogy (where my mom’s family is from) about how Jews were persecuted there—at one period only one child per family was allowed to have a legally recognized marriage.  I’ve read and watched many things about the Holocaust, and got to speak with and interview the author of ‘Because of Romek’ when I was still in school.  I’ve read online about the German American Bund.  I read about supercessionism, particularly as it is exemplified in medieval religious art, from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.  I attended lectures on the diaspora at BYU’s Education Week conference.  I read about the forgery of ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ and the Russian pogroms.  I read about the life of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda.  I’ve read about Henry Ford’s newspaper and Father Coughlin’s radio show and the KKK’s antisemitism.  I visited the Jewish Ceremonial Hall (which is now a museum on Jewish history) in Prague, and the Old Cemetery, and the most heartbreaking museum exhibit I’ve ever seen in my life, filled with artwork from the children in Terezin.  

I took four Hebrew classes (3 modern, one biblical), and learned so much about Jewish history and experience, especially from the professor I had for two of those classes.  She directed me to articles about the period following WWII and through the establishment of the state of Israel in the US, Europe, and Israel.  I got to be friends with the TA of those classes, and had many interesting and fruitful conversations with him.  I had lofty goals of reading the Torah in Hebrew, but I failed at that—I only got about ten pages before I gave up.  I have attended Chanukah and Purim celebrations and got to participate in a Seder.   I taught a lesson to the women’s class at my church about Jewish topics I had learned about from my professor (with her permission).  I refuted and corrected the statements of a man in a public setting that were implying that the treatment of Jews in European history had justification, which while small was a tough thing for me because I am really bad at handling irl confrontation.  I make an effort to read a wide variety of news sources, and I include Haaretz, the Jerusalem Post, and the Jewish Journal.  I have written to my representative urging actions on cronfronting anti-Semitism, hate crimes, and gun violence.  

 

 

But none of that matters.  

My past experience in this area has no bearing on whether offering prayer on behalf of victims is a good or bad response to these tragedies.  If an individual believes in a powerful God, then for that individual to ask him to help those who are suffering is a good, moral action, which the person may well believe will have a greater and more immediate positive effect than any other action they can take.  Of course people should also take action in their lives to try to affect change, as well as offering prayer, and if that were the point you were making I would be with you 100%.  But instead of urging people to temporal action as well (and perhaps offering some suggestions of how, as I think lots of people want to help more but just don’t know what to do)—instead of that, you are vilifying and trying to publicly shame people out of doing a good thing.

Edited by Michelle Conde
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On 4/30/2019 at 9:54 AM, Ordinary Shoes said:

The objection to "thoughts and prayers" is that "thoughts and prayers" are rarely accompanied by anything else. It's a trite response that is usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself instead of being about the victims. 

How many of the people expressing sorrow over this tragedy are honestly attempting to grapple with what motivated this shooter? He was pretty clear about his motivations. This isn't like some of the other recent shootings (like Las Vegas) where we are left guessing about why it happened. He was clear and it fits clearly into a historical pattern we've seen over and over again. And as recently as 6 months ago in Pittsburgh. 

 

I appreciate your thoughts and agree with a lot of them.  As a Christian, I also cringe more and more when I hear "thoughts and prayers" when I know how it's often received these days and when no actions follow.  However, I really do think it's presumptuous to say it's "usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself..."    I know many Christians who say "thoughts and prayers."   However, I also believe they are not making it about themselves.  They are sincerely affected and saddened and want to help in some way, but just feel helpless in the midst of these larger, horrific events.  They do know how to pray though, so that's what they do.  (And of course as Christians, we believe that prayer is no small thing.)  I don't think it's usually about them just trying to feel good about him/herself.  And when you see these same people in their smaller communities, a lot of them are very action-oriented.  It's these bigger events that feel so overwhelming.

I'm all for educating Christians and non-Christians alike as to how they might be able to take action, beyond prayer.   

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On 5/1/2019 at 2:16 PM, Mabelen said:

 

I have no intention of going there but I have read some of what’s there and I find it too disturbing to read more myself. I do not want to end up with ptsd.

As far as parents not noticing, I can see how it could happen. I have an adult child living at home, she is working and saving for grad school. I don’t monitor any of her online activities. She is an adult, like the terrorist. I monitor my younger child’s online activities, but at some point you have to let go and trust that they will have taken your lessons and advice. He was a full time college student, and part of his college swim team, in the summer at least he worked as a lifeguard. Honestly, it probably wasn’t in his parents’ radar that he was up to no good. What signs could have they noticed? Moodiness? Increased anger? What if he had always been generally moody and prone to anger? One of the people at his church said that he was always very quiet. I mean, unless he was actually sharing his new ideas with the family, I don’t know that those signs would be red flags pointing to radicalization.

 

^^this 

I have two adult kids living at home. I only know what they do online if they happen to tell me or if we cross paths on social media (one of my kids & I follow some of the same people on instagram for example).  You can't police what your adult children do on their phones and computers or even who they meet with IRL.  

And I agree with StellaM that you think you know your kids but the reality is we're biased and protective of them and also protective of ourselves, so I can easily see denial being a huge aspect of this. 

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3 hours ago, hornblower said:

 

^^this 

I have two adult kids living at home. I only know what they do online if they happen to tell me or if we cross paths on social media (one of my kids & I follow some of the same people on instagram for example).  You can't police what your adult children do on their phones and computers or even who they meet with IRL.  

And I agree with StellaM that you think you know your kids but the reality is we're biased and protective of them and also protective of ourselves, so I can easily see denial being a huge aspect of this. 

Yes. I am giving the parents the benefit of the doubt, because I realize how difficult it is to navigate a parent-young adult relationship and how little you really know unless they share with you themselves. I am not absolving the parents. If it turns out that they knew and they didn’t do enough, then that would be different. It’s just that it is so shocking to everyone I know that also knew him. A friend of our family was in the same high school and at the same college and year, he even had coffee with the shooter a little over a month ago or so, and didn’t notice anything alarming even though he is a racial minority.

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