Another Synagogue Shooting.... San Diego

[umsami]

No more.  

I am so tired of this.

No more.

We need leadership like NZ on this issue.

Hopes and prayers DO NOTHING.

 

https://www.10news.com/multiple-people-gunned-down-at-poway-synagogue-police-search-for-shooter

[Pen]

What is NZ doing?

 

[umsami]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

What is NZ doing?

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/new-zealand-acts-to-reduce-mass-shootings-why-wont-the-u-s/

 

It took one mass shooting for this to happen.

"New Zealand’s response to gun violence has been dramatically different from that of the U.S. Prime minister Jacinda Ardern immediately called for a ban on semiautomatic guns, assault rifles and high-capacity magazines. The government will buy back banned weapons from current owners, making exceptions for those who need guns for pest control, stock management and hunting. Ardern said more restrictions would follow, including more rigorous licensing rules.

New Zealand’s plan resembles one enacted by Australia in 1996--also after a mass shooting--that is credited with sharply reducing homicides and suicides. The New Zealand law is expected to go into effect in mid-April, less than one month after the Christchurch massacre. "

Edited April 27, 2019 by umsami

[umsami]

And in other hate crimes, a driver plowed into a crowd in California because he thought there were Muslims in the crowd.  He was on his way to Bible class.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-california-pedestrians-hit-20190426-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2eweZJUUOyiPG_6VHmy2C3MziQJiZa2Phv4GNu5CYFlMH7Z0NpiXOwgbI

"An Iraq War veteran deliberately drove into a group of pedestrians because he thought some of the people were Muslim, California authorities said Friday.

Isaiah Joel Peoples, 34, faces eight counts of attempted murder for injuring eight people, including four who remain hospitalized. The most seriously injured is a 13-year-old Sunnyvale girl of South Asian descent who is in a coma with severe brain trauma."

It's not just guns.  It's the hate speech and support of hate groups that happens from the highest level now.  I'm sure the Iraq veteran and the synagogue shooter are all very fine people, right?

 

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by umsami

[TravelingChris]

Horrible people

 

[Mabelen]

As far as I am aware, no one had any idea that the 19 year old who did this had white supremacist ideas and that he was acting or planning to act on them. He is a local kid. A lot of people here know him and his family. His family is a very normal, kind family. I am in shock, hurting for his victims, and for his own family, who are also victims. And although I am not religious, I am praying for them all, because I don’t know what else to do.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Fifiruth said:

I for one am glad that our leaders and their leadership does not include the wholesale and gross violation of our constitutional rights. 

We have a hate problem, and a total lack of civility in society. Everybody, and I mean everybody, needs to rachet down their self righteous acrimony and vitriol if we are going to have any hope of bringing about peace and safety for everyone.

I disagree. I think civility is the norm in our society, not the lack of it. I experience it every single day.

[J-rap]

7 hours ago, Frances said:

I disagree. I think civility is the norm in our society, not the lack of it. I experience it every single day.

I think the same.  Rarely a day goes by that I'm not touched by all the kindness and decency I see in people.  I think because I hear such horrible things in the news, every single day, I start to wonder if perhaps the world is really not mostly decent and kind anymore.  Then when I'm out and about in the real world simply living life, I'm even more amazed when I observe that most people actually are.  It's a good reminder, and for sure it makes more of an impression on me now than it used to since I don't automatically expect it anymore.  Of course that doesn't lessen the fact that horrible things are happening, or how the tone of those who hate is getting louder and less restrained, or that divisions feel bigger, or that parenting has become a much bigger job in order to protect our children from all of that.   But, I definitely think civility is still the norm.

I think it makes the greatest impact on me when I see it on a very individual, person-to-person basis.  (I'm talking among strangers.)  When crowds and institutions and computer screens and all of that are stripped away and it's simply two individuals who happen to share the same space at the same time, decency general prevails, in my experience.

[Mabelen]

11 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’m not surprised he torched the mosque, either. The methods and victims are secondary - the evil is primary.  This is home, too, which makes it extra personal 😞

What I find really sad, knowing him and his family, is that he had all the right things to not turn out this way. His dad is a well respected science teacher, his mom is a devoted stay at home mom of four, he went to great diverse public schools where everyone learned and played well together, was a lifeguard and had saved a life recently, and was studying to become a nurse. How could this happen other than him becoming entangled in hate online groups? That’s the really scary part!

[unsinkable]

This is heartbreaking. I still believe in the power of prayers. That doesn't mean that is all I support doing to make change.

 

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, Mabelen said:

What I find really sad, knowing him and his family, is that he had all the right things to not turn out this way. His dad is a well respected science teacher, his mom is a devoted stay at home mom of four, he went to great diverse public schools where everyone learned and played well together, was a lifeguard and had saved a life recently, and was studying to become a nurse. How could this happen other than him becoming entangled in hate online groups? That’s the really scary part!

 

Alright, I will engage with you on this since I am also local, and a Jew. I don't know this kid or this family, but I do know many of the east and north county homeschooling families. And many of them are certainly not doing all the "right things; " many are fundamentalists who homeschool so that they do not have to engage with a secular and pluralistic society, which I find to be downright frightening. Sadly, I have had to scrutinize the homeschooling events my Jewish kids attend because I have heard about proselytizing by these same homeschoolers. I have also heard from LGBTQ homeschoolers in our community having to be cautious for similar reasons. So, while I understand that this kid was not a homeschooler, I am still skeptical that his parents were doing all the right things.

Did his family read diverse books to him, where the minorities represented were fully fleshed-out characters and more than mere tokens? Did his parents have diverse friendships -- close friendships? How many POC, LGBTQ, and people with disabilities did this kid play with growing up? How many people outside of his family's social economic status, political POV, and religion did he play with? How many Passover seders, or Eid and Diwali celebrations did he attend? Did his family travel and expose him to people from other religions, cultures, and ways of life? Yeah, it's cool that he was a lifeguard, and that mom stayed home and dad was a science teacher, but unless he really engaged with the people at those "diverse public schools" (which so often does not happen), most of the benefits of those schools were likely lost on him. Again, I don't know this boy and his family from Adam. Perhaps they did do all the right things. But, I see too many families in our homeschooling community intentionally NOT doing these things. What kinds of feelings do they think they are breeding about Jews and those "others" when they intentionally do so? And yeah, I am hurt and angry and scared for my children right now.  

[umsami]

16 hours ago, Mabelen said:

As far as I am aware, no one had any idea that the 19 year old who did this had white supremacist ideas and that he was acting or planning to act on them. He is a local kid. A lot of people here know him and his family. His family is a very normal, kind family. I am in shock, hurting for his victims, and for his own family, who are also victims. And although I am not religious, I am praying for them all, because I don’t know what else to do.

They say he also is responsible for the mosque fire.

I will say...as a Muslim Mom....I worry about radicalization...because it's often not the kids from what I would call conservative families who become radicalized.  It's the converts....It's the kids from very moderate families who get indoctrinated online.  One thing that has been discovered (at least among Muslim extremists) is that their knowledge of their religion is usually very basic/non existent....which makes them more vulnerable to so called scholars/Shaykhs/recruiters.  

[SeaConquest]

And just to put a finer point on it, if I raised some of these points in the San Diego Homeschoolers FB group (which is run by two religious homeschoolers), it would be shut down immediately. We had a shooting in our community yesterday and there hasn't been a single post discussing it. Not one. That should speak volumes. Passover is an important holiday in Judaism. Huge. But, you wouldn't know that if you had no exposure to Judaism. If a Christian church was shot up on Easter in San Diego, I assure you, there would be discussion on our message board about it.

[HomeAgain]

5 hours ago, J-rap said:

I think the same.  Rarely a day goes by that I'm not touched by all the kindness and decency I see in people.  I think because I hear such horrible things in the news, every single day, I start to wonder if perhaps the world is really not mostly decent and kind anymore.  Then when I'm out and about in the real world simply living life, I'm even more amazed when I observe that most people actually are.  It's a good reminder, and for sure it makes more of an impression on me now than it used to since I don't automatically expect it anymore.  Of course that doesn't lessen the fact that horrible things are happening, or how the tone of those who hate is getting louder and less restrained, or that divisions feel bigger, or that parenting has become a much bigger job in order to protect our children from all of that.   But, I definitely think civility is still the norm.

I think it makes the greatest impact on me when I see it on a very individual, person-to-person basis.  (I'm talking among strangers.)  When crowds and institutions and computer screens and all of that are stripped away and it's simply two individuals who happen to share the same space at the same time, decency general prevails, in my experience.

I want to believe this.  I do.  But with social media I have seen the hearts of people.
I've watched my husband's family post racist, homophobic, supremacist jokes, articles, and comments.
I've watched Christian friends take offence on something supremely trivial and claiming that they're being marginalized and victimized (i.e. the news calling those in Sri Lanka Easter worshippers, not Christians, is offensive)
I've watched adults critique children, men scoff at women's rights.
I've watched devoted Catholics cut down politicians brutally and illogically, calling those who advocate for Catholic values "idiots"

I've seen their hearts behind what they present in person.  These are all people I never thought would harbor such thoughts, and if these people, the people I thought were loving and kind and torches of light....if these people are presenting such ugly ways, it is not hard for me to imagine what is lurking in others' minds.  This is civilization stripped down to its nakedness and it is not kind and decent.  And these thoughts will guide their actions and whether they are brave enough to do right in real life.

[Mabelen]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Alright, I will engage with you on this since I am also local, and a Jew. I don't know this kid or this family, but I do know many of the east and north county homeschooling families. And many of them are certainly not doing all the "right things; " many are fundamentalists who homeschool so that they do not have to engage with a secular and pluralistic society, which I find to be downright frightening. Sadly, I have had to scrutinize the homeschooling events my Jewish kids attend because I have heard about proselytizing by these same homeschoolers. I have also heard from LGBTQ homeschoolers in our community having to be cautious for similar reasons. So, while I understand that this kid was not a homeschooler, I am still skeptical that his parents were doing all the right things.

Did his family read diverse books to him, where the minorities represented were fully fleshed-out characters and more than mere tokens? Did his parents have diverse friendships -- close friendships? How many POC, LGBTQ, and people with disabilities did this kid play with growing up? How many people outside of his family's social economic status, political POV, and religion did he play with? How many Passover seders, or Eid and Diwali celebrations did he attend? Did his family travel and expose him to people from other religions, cultures, and ways of life? Yeah, it's cool that he was a lifeguard, and that mom stayed home and dad was a science teacher, but unless he really engaged with the people at those "diverse public schools" (which so often does not happen), most of the benefits of those schools were likely lost on him. Again, I don't know this boy and his family from Adam. Perhaps they did do all the right things. But, I see too many families in our homeschooling community intentionally NOT doing these things. What kinds of feelings do they think they are breeding about Jews and those "others" when they intentionally do so? And yeah, I am hurt and angry and scared for my children right now.  

I understand how frightening this is for you. I am not a religious or a racial minority myself, but my husband is both. I am ethnically and linguistically a minority myself. I am very much personally concerned about these matters.

As far as how deeply did his family engage in educating their children in diversity? I don’t know. I don’t know them that well. I do know that they live in an extremely diverse neighborhood and they had good standing in the community so they must have gotten along with their neighbors. I know the public schools their children attend, and they reflect the neighborhood’s socio economic and racial diversity.  I know that his younger sister has diverse school friends. The dad teaches at and their children attend the most diverse school in the district. So, it could be true that the family’s focus was not diversity, but they were in no way sheltered from it. 

[JaLeSherman]

I'm going to echo SeaConquest here, though we are not a Jewish family. (So I do not know much of the Synagogue attack, and my prayers and heart cries for your pain) and people love their bubbles and hate to explore outside of it. And if you don't fall in line with that bubble you are immediately not part of the community. 

Civility exists as long as you fall into the right crowds, at least by appearance if nothing else. People's words in person, on Facebook, even in passing can be extremely cruel and harsh, especially if you are in an area that doesn't see much diversity. And it seems unfortunate to say, the last four years has really heightened this to new levels that I'm scared for my children. And people from the top down don't address. It's a "both sides" issue, though it's one side carrying the bodies to a six foot hole in the ground. 

And we are just a minority race here, not even a minority religion or orientation or ability. 

[Mabelen]

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I thought the dad taught at a Catholic school and the son had attended that school. Did he also attend public school? 

No, this is incorrect. It is a public school I know very well.

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Alright, I will engage with you on this since I am also local, and a Jew. I don't know this kid or this family, but I do know many of the east and north county homeschooling families. And many of them are certainly not doing all the "right things; " many are fundamentalists who homeschool so that they do not have to engage with a secular and pluralistic society, which I find to be downright frightening. Sadly, I have had to scrutinize the homeschooling events my Jewish kids attend because I have heard about proselytizing by these same homeschoolers. I have also heard from LGBTQ homeschoolers in our community having to be cautious for similar reasons. So, while I understand that this kid was not a homeschooler, I am still skeptical that his parents were doing all the right things.

Did his family read diverse books to him, where the minorities represented were fully fleshed-out characters and more than mere tokens? Did his parents have diverse friendships -- close friendships? How many POC, LGBTQ, and people with disabilities did this kid play with growing up? How many people outside of his family's social economic status, political POV, and religion did he play with? How many Passover seders, or Eid and Diwali celebrations did he attend? Did his family travel and expose him to people from other religions, cultures, and ways of life? Yeah, it's cool that he was a lifeguard, and that mom stayed home and dad was a science teacher, but unless he really engaged with the people at those "diverse public schools" (which so often does not happen), most of the benefits of those schools were likely lost on him. Again, I don't know this boy and his family from Adam. Perhaps they did do all the right things. But, I see too many families in our homeschooling community intentionally NOT doing these things. What kinds of feelings do they think they are breeding about Jews and those "others" when they intentionally do so? And yeah, I am hurt and angry and scared for my children right now.  

Thank you for this eloquent post. Yes.

I find the whole "he had every advantage" line to be very hollow right now. White supremacy is very seductive if you don't get inoculated against it. I think some schools are trying, but most are not doing a great job. I think most white families don't have this on their radar. And we all should. All of us raising white boys should be thinking about this.

[JaLeSherman]

And to address you OP --- no. I don't think taking away guns is going to help with this. This is a cultural, societal problem, something that can only be eradicated with time, education, open hearts, and a desire to want to change. Look at how Ronald Reagan passed gun laws in California, it was only because he was threatened by Black Panthers having weapons. We make laws against guns, especially in the realm of seizing them, is going to disproportionately target minority groups like Blacks, Jews, Muslims, etc. 

[Mabelen]

10 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Thank you for this eloquent post. Yes.

I find the whole "he had every advantage" line to be very hollow right now. White supremacy is very seductive if you don't get inoculated against it. I think some schools are trying, but most are not doing a great job. I think most white families don't have this on their radar. And we all should. All of us raising white boys should be thinking about this.

I was not just talking about advantage. His family is a middle class family of six living on a teacher’s salary in a high cost of living area, so their lifestyle is not exactly out of the ordinary. I was pointing out that he had grown up surrounded by socio economic and ethnic diversity and, as far as I know, had grown up in a religiously and politically moderate household and yet, he was radicalized online. Online radicalization is not only real, it is a global threat. Discussing the Sri Lanka bombings with my Sri Lankan relatives, this is a common thread.

[HomeAgain]

3 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

The Sri Lanka thing isn't trivial, and the reason people are offended by being called "Easter Worshippers" is exactly because people try to trivialize Christians being killed. Those people were killed because they were Christians and in church on Easter.

I've seen people call those who disagree with them the Devil, Nazis, etc.

I've seen those who believe not all men are evil women haters insulted and screamed at for not towing the line.

I've seen devoted Catholics been cut down and screamed at by non-Catholics and politicians for advocating for Catholic values. 

See how this works? The world is 100% not civil these days, and it goes both ways. I for one would live in an extremely un-civil environment if I were to come out as a non-liberal. My work place would be extremely hostile.

You seemed to have missed the lesson on time, place, and focus.
When people are killed, it is not time for you to scream that they were not called Gay, Jews, Muslims, Christians, or anything other than people and their purpose for being there.  It is a time to show compassion and care and choose your own words.

You have missed the point.  Entirely and completely.

[Mabelen]

6 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

"Easter Worshipers" was a manufactured controversy. I've watched it long enough to see the pattern. HRC and Obama wrote "Easter Worshippers" so everyone on a certain side decided to be offended and then they began repeating it in the echo chamber. 

 

Especially when Fox News used the same exact term the day before the Sri Lanka bombings to refer to the people displaced from the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and no one batted an eyelid.

[SeaConquest]

56 minutes ago, Mabelen said:

I understand how frightening this is for you. I am not a religious or a racial minority myself, but my husband is both. I am ethnically and linguistically a minority myself. I am very much personally concerned about these matters.

As far as how deeply did his family engage in educating their children in diversity? I don’t know. I don’t know them that well. I do know that they live in an extremely diverse neighborhood and they had good standing in the community so they must have gotten along with their neighbors. I know the public schools their children attend, and they reflect the neighborhood’s socio economic and racial diversity.  I know that his younger sister has diverse school friends. The dad teaches at and their children attend the most diverse school in the district. So, it could be true that the family’s focus was not diversity, but they were in no way sheltered from it. 

 

Mt. Carmel is known to be a good school in a good school district, and Niche gives it an A+ for diversity, so I assume you are correct. But, I spent my youth in LA Unified Schools, and I saw how racially segregated public schools can be -- sometimes as bad as prisons. I know that I seriously have to make a point to have diverse friendships or I find myself just naturally gravitating to people just like me. But, the rewards of diverse friendships are enormous -- they have enriched my life and the lives of my children beyond measure. I have two Muslim friends who wear hijab, and because of them, we have been able to have discussions about it with my sons that are so much more full and complex. We've seen our Muslim friends struggle with fasting during Ramadan and experienced the joy of Eid. We've talked about the difficulties of Arab-Israeli relations. Our African American friends helped my children to understand the effects of systemic racism. Our Mexican American and Native American friends helped them to better understand the complicated history of California and the United States. Our LGBTQ friends help them understand discrimination and the fight for civil rights. Yes, we could talk about these things and read about these things, but these are their friends. As they say, the s*it just got real. I'm exhausted and worn down, and not really giving very articulate examples at the moment, but these friendships are part of the fabric of our lives, and intentionally so. It's the best I can do to inoculate them from hatred, so they hopefully don't turn into fundamentalist Jews someday.

[unsinkable]

1 hour ago, Mabelen said:

Especially when Fox News used the same exact term the day before the Sri Lanka bombings to refer to the people displaced from the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and no one batted an eyelid.

 

I just looked this up. Fox News ran an AP story that used the phrase. It wasn't one of the Fox writers or reporters or commentators.

I don't care who uses "Easter Worshippers." It sounds awkward to my ears and much easier to say tourists and Christians. 

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I want to believe this.  I do.  But with social media I have seen the hearts of people.
I've watched my husband's family post racist, homophobic, supremacist jokes, articles, and comments.
I've watched Christian friends take offence on something supremely trivial and claiming that they're being marginalized and victimized (i.e. the news calling those in Sri Lanka Easter worshippers, not Christians, is offensive)
I've watched adults critique children, men scoff at women's rights.
I've watched devoted Catholics cut down politicians brutally and illogically, calling those who advocate for Catholic values "idiots"

I've seen their hearts behind what they present in person.  These are all people I never thought would harbor such thoughts, and if these people, the people I thought were loving and kind and torches of light....if these people are presenting such ugly ways, it is not hard for me to imagine what is lurking in others' minds.  This is civilization stripped down to its nakedness and it is not kind and decent.  And these thoughts will guide their actions and whether they are brave enough to do right in real life.

It's so confusing, isn't it!  Because I see people like that online too...and it is very discouraging.  But it's also psychologically very curious, because sometimes when I see those same people out and about in real life, in person, I see them being very decent to the very people they're condemning online.  It's like the personal individual contact feels different to them than the judgey mass group effect.   Sometimes I wonder if it's  1) That they're being hypocritical in real life and holding in their real thoughts/feelings, or 2)  When they're actually with an individual of the group they purport to either hate or judge, it feels totally different to them.  They're engaging on a much more personal level which causes their "mass group effect opinion" (sorry, I don't know what to call it!) to temporarily lift.

That doesn't address everything you say, only the kind of mass group effect (whether online or not I suppose) that seems to take hold of some people's minds, but maybe actually not their hearts.

I dunno, I guess I still want to see something hopeful in those people.  

[Laurie]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 

I think we are failing, as a global society, to grapple with many malign influences which are largely spread online. Whilst white supremacy is one of these disturbing influences, there are many others.  

 

I was reading an article that named the online group that this killer and the Christchurch killer both frequented.  Then I found this:  https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/gab-and-8chan-home-to-terrorist-plots-hiding-in-plain-sight

I know very little about tech stuff, but it seems to me that someone should be able to shut down that website since the members are encouraging each other to kill and they seem to want to share their crimes "live" with each other.  At the very least, isn't it possible to identify these people and even send local law enforcement to their homes so that they know (and maybe their parents, too) that they aren't as anonymous as they think.   Governments already have "watch lists" for others...can't these people be put on the same kind of watch list, too, since they are obviously encouraging each other to kill???     

[umsami]

22 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yes. And as umsami said above, it's a fear for many parents, from all kinds of backgrounds.

I think we are failing, as a global society, to grapple with many malign influences which are largely spread online. Whilst white supremacy is one of these disturbing influences, there are many others.  

I agree with other posters that anti-Semitism is both on the rise, and a type of hatred which is not treated as urgently as it should be. I think that's largely related to political issues, with many progressive people allowing their ongoing disagreement with successive Israeli governments regarding Palestine to drain their empathy with the Jewish people. 

This I blame on people labeling anything that is critical of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.  They are different, but we do not allow much debate on anything regarding Israel here without labeling it as anti-Semitism.  That does not seem to be an issue in Europe AFAIK.

Just saw that the NY Times got dinged for anti-Semitism today for running a cartoon of Netenyahu on a dog leash tied to Trump. I haven't seen the cartoon, but to me that is strictlly political and has nothing to do with hatred of Jews.  Netenyahu has a lot of baggage....as does Trump....and should not be a forbidden topic for political cartoons.

[umsami]

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Europe is struggling mightily with anti-Semitism right now, across multiple countries. It’s awful - I agree with Stella that a lack of empathy and dehumanizing/othering those we view as opposing our views surely doesn’t help.

 

And the cartoon was bad.  baaaad.  Like drawing Obama as a monkey levels of bad, in terms of loaded symbolism. It could have been handled much better and still made a similar point, IMO.  Here’s a link:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/440957-ny-times-opinion-apologizes-for-cartoon-depicting-anti-semitic-tropes

Thanks for the link.  Yeah, I agree this cartoon went too far.  Could have made the same point in a better way.

[mathnerd]

On 4/27/2019 at 1:28 PM, umsami said:

And in other hate crimes, a driver plowed into a crowd in California because he thought there were Muslims in the crowd.  He was on his way to Bible class.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-california-pedestrians-hit-20190426-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2eweZJUUOyiPG_6VHmy2C3MziQJiZa2Phv4GNu5CYFlMH7Z0NpiXOwgbI

"An Iraq War veteran deliberately drove into a group of pedestrians because he thought some of the people were Muslim, California authorities said Friday.

Isaiah Joel Peoples, 34, faces eight counts of attempted murder for injuring eight people, including four who remain hospitalized. The most seriously injured is a 13-year-old Sunnyvale girl of South Asian descent who is in a coma with severe brain trauma."

It's not just guns.  It's the hate speech and support of hate groups that happens from the highest level now.  I'm sure the Iraq veteran and the synagogue shooter are all very fine people, right?

 

 

 

This incident was the closest I have been to a mass hate crime. I was a block away from the place inside my son's music teacher's house when the police cars were racing past. Later I learned that the driver drove into a group of pedestrians on the sidewalk because their ethnicity made him conclude that they could have been muslims. That sidewalk where they were attacked is outside a popular Trader Joe's location and many of the victims were walking over to TJ's that day. My area is a true melting pot of all cultures and races,  the communities are diverse and some ethnic minorities in other parts of the US are not considered minorities because of the large populations settled here. And still, this ugliness rears its head in one of the most liberal and welcoming areas that I have ever been to.

[Lady Florida.]

14 hours ago, umsami said:

This I blame on people labeling anything that is critical of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.  They are different, but we do not allow much debate on anything regarding Israel here without labeling it as anti-Semitism.  That does not seem to be an issue in Europe AFAIK.

 

This. In the U.S. at least it seems you are either pro-Israel in the Israel-Palestine conflict, or you're anti-Semitic. There is a section of the political spectrum that won't allow the two to be separated, thereby making debate always end with those who are pro Palestine being called anti-Semites.

[Condessa]

This is home for me, too.  I am sick at heart.  The horror and evil in our world seems so much more real when it comes to your home.  I have been crying--and yes, praying--for our Jewish brothers and sisters.  The rising anti-semitism in our nation is sickening.  That cartoon in the NYT is blatant and disgusting.  

 

Those who offer prayer for victims of disasters are not doing nothing.  It would be "doing nothing" for someone who did not believe in the existence of a divine being with the ability to intercede in the lives of men to offer words to nobody.  It is not "doing nothing" for someone who actually believes in such a being to ask for his help for those in need of his aid.  Why wouldn't we?

[SeaConquest]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The objection to "thoughts and prayers" is that "thoughts and prayers" are rarely accompanied by anything else. It's a trite response that is usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself instead of being about the victims. 

How many of the people expressing sorrow over this tragedy are honestly attempting to grapple with what motivated this shooter? He was pretty clear about his motivations. This isn't like some of the other recent shootings (like Las Vegas) where we are left guessing about why it happened. He was clear and it fits clearly into a historical pattern we've seen over and over again. And as recently as 6 months ago in Pittsburgh. 

 

 

Indeed:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/04/29/white-supremacist-violence-has-long-history-san-diego/?fbclid=IwAR2WnpJpsS0KdxmbSh8RTJ0g344R2_RU-fGzLOP-cCUDATdJuR8zyGEvKwA

[Condessa]

The objection to "thoughts and prayers" is that, as a very general stereotype, those whose first response to tragedy is an exercise of faith are assumed to be likely to disagree on possible courses of action with those who respond differently, and so the latter use this reasoning you describe to justify deriding the faith of the former.

 

On what facts do you base your statement that :

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

"thoughts and prayers" are rarely accompanied by anything else. It's a trite response that is usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself instead of being about the victims. 

and your implication that people who pray for victims do not honestly attempt to grapple with the causes of these tragedies?  Is it honestly based on something other than your assumptions about people with a different perspective from your own?

[Condessa]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

"Thoughts and prayers" are tossed around after every tragedy in this country but nothing changes. Nothing is ever addressed. 11 people were murdered 6 months ago in a synagogue in Pittsburgh. 1 was murdered this past weekend. Both shooters were motivated by the same ideology. I think it's pretty safe to assume that none of the "thoughts and prayers" folks were doing much of anything to stop the next neo-Nazi from shooting up another synagogue. 

2 people were murdered today at a college in North Carolina. Is anyone going to do anything to prevent another college shooting? I know some will do what they can but their first reaction won't be "thoughts and prayers." 

And BTW, "thoughts and prayers" are not an "exercise of faith." I'm a Christian and I pray for the victims of these tragedies but my first reaction is not "thoughts and prayers." I know how insensitive that is. 

ETA that the way that those who pray for the victims can show that they are trying to make things better is by actually addressing the issues. There have been some good discussions held in certain venues about anti-semitism and its connection to white supremacy. Don't get defensive when people are offended by "thoughts and prayers" because that makes this about you. 

ETA2 - the onus here is on us Christians to act and not just send platitudes that absolve us of guilt. Anti-semitism is deep in Christian history. 

 

 

Why do you "think it's pretty safe to assume that none of the "thoughts and prayers" folks were doing much of anything to stop the next Neo-Nazi from shooting up another synagogue"?  Seriously.  How could you possibly think that is a safe assumption?  What do you base this idea on?  With millions of people of faith in this country, you seriously think this is a safe assumption?  

Praying for those who are suffering and asking a divine being to aid and comfort them in their suffering absolutely is an exercise of faith.  It is not a platitude, it has nothing to do with guilt, and it is not an indicator of what else the person offering the prayer may or may not also do.  It is a sincere effort to reach out and seek for what can aid the victims most in their hour of need.  You pray for the victims, but it's only okay to do so if it's not one's first reaction? Why?  

 

[Condessa]

An interview Rabbi Goldstein gave to CNN:

 

What a brave man.

 

[TechWife]

12 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

On what facts do you base your statement that :

and your implication that people who pray for victims do not honestly attempt to grapple with the causes of these tragedies?  Is it honestly based on something other than your assumptions about people with a different perspective from your own?

Not the PP, but as someone who both prays for victims & their families and someone who grapples with the causes of these tragedies, I can say that most people I know that offer "thoughts and prayers" have no intention of grappling with the causes of these tragedies. I have tried to get my peers to grapple with the reality we find ourselves in, to engage in thoughtful discourse about causes and prevention. Do you know what happens? They refuse. They simply attribute the shootings to "sin" and say that the world won't ever be rid of it until Jesus returns. I agree with them on both points, but I see value in all life as sacred and therefore these things must be grappled with from a spiritual and practical perspective. They see any attempt to engage in discourse as a threat to their second amendment rights, so for them, it's the end of the discussion. We can't make it to the point of discussing racial and/or ethnic motivations and the systemic issues that allow such attitudes to fester and flourish because they won't engage in that thoughtfully grappling with the real, root issues that are making this violence acceptable.

[TechWife]

16 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If the hundred million or so Christians in this country were interested in stopping another Neo-Nazi shooting, or another college shooting (guess we'll be due for another one of those in about a month), then they would stop. 

It's really that simple. 

You're deliberately misunderstanding the issue here. No one is saying that praying is worthless. Make an effort to understand where the objections to "thoughts and prayers" are coming from. And before you turn this into being about you (again), the onus here is you. You are of the majority faith. You belong to the faith tradition of the shooter. They don't need to understand you. You need to understand them. 

Have you done the work to understand the very deep roots of anti-semitism in Christianity or white supremacy in the United States and how they are intermingled? 

 

The college shooting happened yesterday. UNC Charlotte - two dead, four more injured.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

45 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If the hundred million or so Christians in this country were interested in stopping another Neo-Nazi shooting, or another college shooting (guess we'll be due for another one of those in about a month), then they would stop. 

It's really that simple. 

You're deliberately misunderstanding the issue here. No one is saying that praying is worthless. Make an effort to understand where the objections to "thoughts and prayers" are coming from. And before you turn this into being about you (again), the onus here is you. You are of the majority faith. You belong to the faith tradition of the shooter. They don't need to understand you. You need to understand them. 

Have you done the work to understand the very deep roots of anti-semitism in Christianity or white supremacy in the United States and how they are intermingled? 

 

Not sure I can agree with this statement.  Not sure why you believe Christians can directly stop the actions of others.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If all of the Christians in this country voted for candidates that supported sensible gun control, we would have gun control. 

This is a democracy and there are plenty of public policies that could make these tragedies much less likely to happen (like they rarely happen in other countries). 

 

1.) Depends on what you define as "sensible", doesn't it?

2.) You didn't say less likely to happen,  You said they would stop.

You also specified the white supremacist shootings, which as terrorist attacks would be the ones less affected by most gun control proposals that been put forth.

Edited May 1, 2019 by ChocolateReignRemix

[Lady Florida.]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If all of the Christians in this country voted for candidates that supported sensible gun control, we would have gun control. 

This is a democracy and there are plenty of public policies that could make these tragedies much less likely to happen (like they rarely happen in other countries). 

 

That was what I took as your meaning. Since Christians are in the majority in this country over other religions and "nones", they are the ones who can have an impact on laws.

[Condessa]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If the hundred million or so Christians in this country were interested in stopping another Neo-Nazi shooting, or another college shooting (guess we'll be due for another one of those in about a month), then they would stop. 

It's really that simple. 

No, it is not.  You are doing exactly what I described in my prior post: assuming that those whose first response to these tragedies is prayer are likely to disagree with you on possible responses, and using that assumption to justify your reaction to all of them.  You have given zero basis for your assumptions when asked.

You're deliberately misunderstanding the issue here. No one is saying that praying is worthless.

On 4/27/2019 at 2:18 PM, umsami said:

Hopes and prayers DO NOTHING.

 

14 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

. . . just send platitudes that absolve us of guilt.

Make an effort to understand where the objections to "thoughts and prayers" are coming from.

I have made the effort to understand where people who take offense at those who respond with prayer are coming from.  I have talked to a number of them, read their work trying to understand their reactions, and haven't yet found one who didn't base their reaction on the assumption that people who pray first will probably not support their desired gun-control measures, so they feel justified in preemptively berating them for their response.

And before you turn this into being about you (again), the onus here is you. You are of the majority faith. You belong to the faith tradition of the shooter. They don't need to understand you. You need to understand them. 

Wow.  Not sure where you came up with the assumption that I am from the faith tradition of the shooter, but I'm going to give a greater weight and importance to the opinion of my Jewish friend who is asking for prayer at this time than to that of bystanders who deride people of faith for praying for the victims.

Have you done the work to understand the very deep roots of anti-semitism in Christianity or white supremacy in the United States and how they are intermingled? 

Yes.

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Oh this is utter nonsense. I know the church he attended.  I know the high school he went to.  This is not a Christians-being-antisemitic or his-family-being- cloistered-and-lacking-diversity issue.  Every believer in the world coming together cannot stamp out the evil in the hearts of other men, they can’t even stamp out all the sin in their OWN.  Not this side of heaven.

Might there be some steps that can be taken?  Potentially, though in this case and in one of the most gun controlled states in the union, the common checks didn’t catch it.  Nobody is talking about this being a ticking time bomb. He rejected mainstream political parties including the president, and didn’t even just hit one particular faith.  Remember he torched a mosque too. 

Looking for people to blame other than the shooter is a common impulse, but that doesn’t make it right.  

 

He's still living at home with his parents and they have no clue that he's spending all that time on 8chan /pol/? Right off the bat, I am giving them a side eye. If you haven't read that garbage, you really should.

https://8ch.net/pol/index.html

 

 

[SeaConquest]

And whose guns were they? Do we know that? Why does a 19 year old have access to a rifle and ammo? As of 2019, you had to be 21 in California. So, where did this gun come from? Again, I am giving the side eye. I was in the Army, and am the daughter and granddaughter of police officers, but I don't let my kids go into homes with guns. I wish our country would do something about this violence already. I am so so sick of it. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

7 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

And whose guns were they? Do we know that? Why does a 19 year old have access to a rifle and ammo? As of 2019, you had to be 21 in California. So, where did this gun come from? Again, I am giving the side eye. I was in the Army, and am the daughter and granddaughter of police officers, but I don't let my kids go into homes with guns. I wish our country would do something about this violence already. I am so so sick of it. 

He was 18 in 2018 so it could have been purchased then.

Could have been purchased illegally.

[Mabelen]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

He's still living at home with his parents and they have no clue that he's spending all that time on 8chan /pol/? Right off the bat, I am giving them a side eye. If you haven't read that garbage, you really should.

https://8ch.net/pol/index.html

 

 

 

I have no intention of going there but I have read some of what’s there and I find it too disturbing to read more myself. I do not want to end up with ptsd.

As far as parents not noticing, I can see how it could happen. I have an adult child living at home, she is working and saving for grad school. I don’t monitor any of her online activities. She is an adult, like the terrorist. I monitor my younger child’s online activities, but at some point you have to let go and trust that they will have taken your lessons and advice. He was a full time college student, and part of his college swim team, in the summer at least he worked as a lifeguard. Honestly, it probably wasn’t in his parents’ radar that he was up to no good. What signs could have they noticed? Moodiness? Increased anger? What if he had always been generally moody and prone to anger? One of the people at his church said that he was always very quiet. I mean, unless he was actually sharing his new ideas with the family, I don’t know that those signs would be red flags pointing to radicalization.

 

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

And whose guns were they? Do we know that? Why does a 19 year old have access to a rifle and ammo? As of 2019, you had to be 21 in California. So, where did this gun come from? Again, I am giving the side eye. I was in the Army, and am the daughter and granddaughter of police officers, but I don't let my kids go into homes with guns. I wish our country would do something about this violence already. I am so so sick of it. 

 

I read that he had said he bought the gun legally. I am sure the authorities will find out exactly how it  happened. I also wish things were different here with regards to guns. It’s a great source of stress for me. I hate it.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Mabelen

[Skippy]

On 4/27/2019 at 3:18 PM, umsami said:

Hopes and prayers DO NOTHING.

I respectfully but completely disagree with this statement. I believe prayer to be very powerful, and have witnessed this power many times in my lifetime. I am so thankful that I can seek God in prayer!

This weekend Tennessee suffered the “deadliest homicide event in Tennessee in at least 20 years.” Seven people were killed. None of them were killed with guns. They "died from either blunt force trauma or sharp force injuries." The crime scene was unimaginably gruesome. The only gun used was the one used by law enforcement to injure and apprehend the perpetrator. Yes, guns in evil hands can do a lot of terrible things, but removing them is not the answer. I wish it were that easy. Removing guns would be so much easier than changing evil hearts.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/crime/7-sumner-co-murder-victims-died-of-blunt-force-trauma-or-sharp-force-injuries-me-says/51-8d8d94f6-d0b1-4fed-a107-14a47063cc6d

[Condessa]

On 5/1/2019 at 1:04 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

Prove that you've done the work. What have you read? What have you done? 

Wow, who’s trying to make this about me?

Let’s see, I haven’t been documenting my sources over the years for the sake of justifying myself to internet strangers.  I read a book about the Inquisition and the Spanish Decree of Expulsion from the college library.  I read a section in a textbook on the Revolutionary War period about Jews’ treatment in the different colonies and after the states were united.  I read in a book on Bohemian genealogy (where my mom’s family is from) about how Jews were persecuted there—at one period only one child per family was allowed to have a legally recognized marriage.  I’ve read and watched many things about the Holocaust, and got to speak with and interview the author of ‘Because of Romek’ when I was still in school.  I’ve read online about the German American Bund.  I read about supercessionism, particularly as it is exemplified in medieval religious art, from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.  I attended lectures on the diaspora at BYU’s Education Week conference.  I read about the forgery of ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ and the Russian pogroms.  I read about the life of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda.  I’ve read about Henry Ford’s newspaper and Father Coughlin’s radio show and the KKK’s antisemitism.  I visited the Jewish Ceremonial Hall (which is now a museum on Jewish history) in Prague, and the Old Cemetery, and the most heartbreaking museum exhibit I’ve ever seen in my life, filled with artwork from the children in Terezin.  

I took four Hebrew classes (3 modern, one biblical), and learned so much about Jewish history and experience, especially from the professor I had for two of those classes.  She directed me to articles about the period following WWII and through the establishment of the state of Israel in the US, Europe, and Israel.  I got to be friends with the TA of those classes, and had many interesting and fruitful conversations with him.  I had lofty goals of reading the Torah in Hebrew, but I failed at that—I only got about ten pages before I gave up.  I have attended Chanukah and Purim celebrations and got to participate in a Seder.   I taught a lesson to the women’s class at my church about Jewish topics I had learned about from my professor (with her permission).  I refuted and corrected the statements of a man in a public setting that were implying that the treatment of Jews in European history had justification, which while small was a tough thing for me because I am really bad at handling irl confrontation.  I make an effort to read a wide variety of news sources, and I include Haaretz, the Jerusalem Post, and the Jewish Journal.  I have written to my representative urging actions on cronfronting anti-Semitism, hate crimes, and gun violence.  

 

 

But none of that matters.  

My past experience in this area has no bearing on whether offering prayer on behalf of victims is a good or bad response to these tragedies.  If an individual believes in a powerful God, then for that individual to ask him to help those who are suffering is a good, moral action, which the person may well believe will have a greater and more immediate positive effect than any other action they can take.  Of course people should also take action in their lives to try to affect change, as well as offering prayer, and if that were the point you were making I would be with you 100%.  But instead of urging people to temporal action as well (and perhaps offering some suggestions of how, as I think lots of people want to help more but just don’t know what to do)—instead of that, you are vilifying and trying to publicly shame people out of doing a good thing.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[J-rap]

On 4/30/2019 at 9:54 AM, Ordinary Shoes said:

The objection to "thoughts and prayers" is that "thoughts and prayers" are rarely accompanied by anything else. It's a trite response that is usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself instead of being about the victims. 

How many of the people expressing sorrow over this tragedy are honestly attempting to grapple with what motivated this shooter? He was pretty clear about his motivations. This isn't like some of the other recent shootings (like Las Vegas) where we are left guessing about why it happened. He was clear and it fits clearly into a historical pattern we've seen over and over again. And as recently as 6 months ago in Pittsburgh. 

 

I appreciate your thoughts and agree with a lot of them.  As a Christian, I also cringe more and more when I hear "thoughts and prayers" when I know how it's often received these days and when no actions follow.  However, I really do think it's presumptuous to say it's "usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself..."    I know many Christians who say "thoughts and prayers."   However, I also believe they are not making it about themselves.  They are sincerely affected and saddened and want to help in some way, but just feel helpless in the midst of these larger, horrific events.  They do know how to pray though, so that's what they do.  (And of course as Christians, we believe that prayer is no small thing.)  I don't think it's usually about them just trying to feel good about him/herself.  And when you see these same people in their smaller communities, a lot of them are very action-oriented.  It's these bigger events that feel so overwhelming.

I'm all for educating Christians and non-Christians alike as to how they might be able to take action, beyond prayer.   

[hornblower]

On 5/1/2019 at 2:16 PM, Mabelen said:

 

I have no intention of going there but I have read some of what’s there and I find it too disturbing to read more myself. I do not want to end up with ptsd.

As far as parents not noticing, I can see how it could happen. I have an adult child living at home, she is working and saving for grad school. I don’t monitor any of her online activities. She is an adult, like the terrorist. I monitor my younger child’s online activities, but at some point you have to let go and trust that they will have taken your lessons and advice. He was a full time college student, and part of his college swim team, in the summer at least he worked as a lifeguard. Honestly, it probably wasn’t in his parents’ radar that he was up to no good. What signs could have they noticed? Moodiness? Increased anger? What if he had always been generally moody and prone to anger? One of the people at his church said that he was always very quiet. I mean, unless he was actually sharing his new ideas with the family, I don’t know that those signs would be red flags pointing to radicalization.

 

^^this 

I have two adult kids living at home. I only know what they do online if they happen to tell me or if we cross paths on social media (one of my kids & I follow some of the same people on instagram for example).  You can't police what your adult children do on their phones and computers or even who they meet with IRL.  

And I agree with StellaM that you think you know your kids but the reality is we're biased and protective of them and also protective of ourselves, so I can easily see denial being a huge aspect of this. 

[Mabelen]

3 hours ago, hornblower said:

 

^^this 

I have two adult kids living at home. I only know what they do online if they happen to tell me or if we cross paths on social media (one of my kids & I follow some of the same people on instagram for example).  You can't police what your adult children do on their phones and computers or even who they meet with IRL.  

And I agree with StellaM that you think you know your kids but the reality is we're biased and protective of them and also protective of ourselves, so I can easily see denial being a huge aspect of this. 

Yes. I am giving the parents the benefit of the doubt, because I realize how difficult it is to navigate a parent-young adult relationship and how little you really know unless they share with you themselves. I am not absolving the parents. If it turns out that they knew and they didn’t do enough, then that would be different. It’s just that it is so shocking to everyone I know that also knew him. A friend of our family was in the same high school and at the same college and year, he even had coffee with the shooter a little over a month ago or so, and didn’t notice anything alarming even though he is a racial minority.