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umsami

Another Synagogue Shooting.... San Diego

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2 minutes ago, Pen said:

What is NZ doing?

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/new-zealand-acts-to-reduce-mass-shootings-why-wont-the-u-s/

 

It took one mass shooting for this to happen.

"New Zealand’s response to gun violence has been dramatically different from that of the U.S. Prime minister Jacinda Ardern immediately called for a ban on semiautomatic guns, assault rifles and high-capacity magazines. The government will buy back banned weapons from current owners, making exceptions for those who need guns for pest control, stock management and hunting. Ardern said more restrictions would follow, including more rigorous licensing rules.

New Zealand’s plan resembles one enacted by Australia in 1996--also after a mass shooting--that is credited with sharply reducing homicides and suicides. The New Zealand law is expected to go into effect in mid-April, less than one month after the Christchurch massacre. "

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And in other hate crimes, a driver plowed into a crowd in California because he thought there were Muslims in the crowd.  He was on his way to Bible class.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-california-pedestrians-hit-20190426-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2eweZJUUOyiPG_6VHmy2C3MziQJiZa2Phv4GNu5CYFlMH7Z0NpiXOwgbI

"An Iraq War veteran deliberately drove into a group of pedestrians because he thought some of the people were Muslim, California authorities said Friday.

Isaiah Joel Peoples, 34, faces eight counts of attempted murder for injuring eight people, including four who remain hospitalized. The most seriously injured is a 13-year-old Sunnyvale girl of South Asian descent who is in a coma with severe brain trauma."


It's not just guns.  It's the hate speech and support of hate groups that happens from the highest level now.  I'm sure the Iraq veteran and the synagogue shooter are all very fine people, right?

 

 

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As far as I am aware, no one had any idea that the 19 year old who did this had white supremacist ideas and that he was acting or planning to act on them. He is a local kid. A lot of people here know him and his family. His family is a very normal, kind family. I am in shock, hurting for his victims, and for his own family, who are also victims. And although I am not religious, I am praying for them all, because I don’t know what else to do.

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I for one am glad that our leaders and their leadership does not include the wholesale and gross violation of our constitutional rights. 

We have a hate problem, and a total lack of civility in society. Everybody, and I mean everybody, needs to rachet down their self righteous acrimony and vitriol if we are going to have any hope of bringing about peace and safety for everyone.

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I’m not surprised he torched the mosque, either. The methods and victims are secondary - the evil is primary.  This is home, too, which makes it extra personal 😞

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2 hours ago, Fifiruth said:

I for one am glad that our leaders and their leadership does not include the wholesale and gross violation of our constitutional rights. 

We have a hate problem, and a total lack of civility in society. Everybody, and I mean everybody, needs to rachet down their self righteous acrimony and vitriol if we are going to have any hope of bringing about peace and safety for everyone.

I disagree. I think civility is the norm in our society, not the lack of it. I experience it every single day.

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7 hours ago, Frances said:

I disagree. I think civility is the norm in our society, not the lack of it. I experience it every single day.

I think the same.  Rarely a day goes by that I'm not touched by all the kindness and decency I see in people.  I think because I hear such horrible things in the news, every single day, I start to wonder if perhaps the world is really not mostly decent and kind anymore.  Then when I'm out and about in the real world simply living life, I'm even more amazed when I observe that most people actually are.  It's a good reminder, and for sure it makes more of an impression on me now than it used to since I don't automatically expect it anymore.  Of course that doesn't lessen the fact that horrible things are happening, or how the tone of those who hate is getting louder and less restrained, or that divisions feel bigger, or that parenting has become a much bigger job in order to protect our children from all of that.   But, I definitely think civility is still the norm.

I think it makes the greatest impact on me when I see it on a very individual, person-to-person basis.  (I'm talking among strangers.)  When crowds and institutions and computer screens and all of that are stripped away and it's simply two individuals who happen to share the same space at the same time, decency general prevails, in my experience.

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11 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’m not surprised he torched the mosque, either. The methods and victims are secondary - the evil is primary.  This is home, too, which makes it extra personal 😞

What I find really sad, knowing him and his family, is that he had all the right things to not turn out this way. His dad is a well respected science teacher, his mom is a devoted stay at home mom of four, he went to great diverse public schools where everyone learned and played well together, was a lifeguard and had saved a life recently, and was studying to become a nurse. How could this happen other than him becoming entangled in hate online groups? That’s the really scary part!

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This is heartbreaking. I still believe in the power of prayers. That doesn't mean that is all I support doing to make change.

 

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1 hour ago, Mabelen said:

What I find really sad, knowing him and his family, is that he had all the right things to not turn out this way. His dad is a well respected science teacher, his mom is a devoted stay at home mom of four, he went to great diverse public schools where everyone learned and played well together, was a lifeguard and had saved a life recently, and was studying to become a nurse. How could this happen other than him becoming entangled in hate online groups? That’s the really scary part!

 

Alright, I will engage with you on this since I am also local, and a Jew. I don't know this kid or this family, but I do know many of the east and north county homeschooling families. And many of them are certainly not doing all the "right things; " many are fundamentalists who homeschool so that they do not have to engage with a secular and pluralistic society, which I find to be downright frightening. Sadly, I have had to scrutinize the homeschooling events my Jewish kids attend because I have heard about proselytizing by these same homeschoolers. I have also heard from LGBTQ homeschoolers in our community having to be cautious for similar reasons. So, while I understand that this kid was not a homeschooler, I am still skeptical that his parents were doing all the right things.

Did his family read diverse books to him, where the minorities represented were fully fleshed-out characters and more than mere tokens? Did his parents have diverse friendships -- close friendships? How many POC, LGBTQ, and people with disabilities did this kid play with growing up? How many people outside of his family's social economic status, political POV, and religion did he play with? How many Passover seders, or Eid and Diwali celebrations did he attend? Did his family travel and expose him to people from other religions, cultures, and ways of life? Yeah, it's cool that he was a lifeguard, and that mom stayed home and dad was a science teacher, but unless he really engaged with the people at those "diverse public schools" (which so often does not happen), most of the benefits of those schools were likely lost on him. Again, I don't know this boy and his family from Adam. Perhaps they did do all the right things. But, I see too many families in our homeschooling community intentionally NOT doing these things. What kinds of feelings do they think they are breeding about Jews and those "others" when they intentionally do so? And yeah, I am hurt and angry and scared for my children right now.  

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16 hours ago, Mabelen said:

As far as I am aware, no one had any idea that the 19 year old who did this had white supremacist ideas and that he was acting or planning to act on them. He is a local kid. A lot of people here know him and his family. His family is a very normal, kind family. I am in shock, hurting for his victims, and for his own family, who are also victims. And although I am not religious, I am praying for them all, because I don’t know what else to do.

They say he also is responsible for the mosque fire.

I will say...as a Muslim Mom....I worry about radicalization...because it's often not the kids from what I would call conservative families who become radicalized.  It's the converts....It's the kids from very moderate families who get indoctrinated online.  One thing that has been discovered (at least among Muslim extremists) is that their knowledge of their religion is usually very basic/non existent....which makes them more vulnerable to so called scholars/Shaykhs/recruiters.  

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And just to put a finer point on it, if I raised some of these points in the San Diego Homeschoolers FB group (which is run by two religious homeschoolers), it would be shut down immediately. We had a shooting in our community yesterday and there hasn't been a single post discussing it. Not one. That should speak volumes. Passover is an important holiday in Judaism. Huge. But, you wouldn't know that if you had no exposure to Judaism. If a Christian church was shot up on Easter in San Diego, I assure you, there would be discussion on our message board about it.

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5 hours ago, J-rap said:

I think the same.  Rarely a day goes by that I'm not touched by all the kindness and decency I see in people.  I think because I hear such horrible things in the news, every single day, I start to wonder if perhaps the world is really not mostly decent and kind anymore.  Then when I'm out and about in the real world simply living life, I'm even more amazed when I observe that most people actually are.  It's a good reminder, and for sure it makes more of an impression on me now than it used to since I don't automatically expect it anymore.  Of course that doesn't lessen the fact that horrible things are happening, or how the tone of those who hate is getting louder and less restrained, or that divisions feel bigger, or that parenting has become a much bigger job in order to protect our children from all of that.   But, I definitely think civility is still the norm.

I think it makes the greatest impact on me when I see it on a very individual, person-to-person basis.  (I'm talking among strangers.)  When crowds and institutions and computer screens and all of that are stripped away and it's simply two individuals who happen to share the same space at the same time, decency general prevails, in my experience.


I want to believe this.  I do.  But with social media I have seen the hearts of people.
I've watched my husband's family post racist, homophobic, supremacist jokes, articles, and comments.
I've watched Christian friends take offence on something supremely trivial and claiming that they're being marginalized and victimized (i.e. the news calling those in Sri Lanka Easter worshippers, not Christians, is offensive)
I've watched adults critique children, men scoff at women's rights.
I've watched devoted Catholics cut down politicians brutally and illogically, calling those who advocate for Catholic values "idiots"

I've seen their hearts behind what they present in person.  These are all people I never thought would harbor such thoughts, and if these people, the people I thought were loving and kind and torches of light....if these people are presenting such ugly ways, it is not hard for me to imagine what is lurking in others' minds.  This is civilization stripped down to its nakedness and it is not kind and decent.  And these thoughts will guide their actions and whether they are brave enough to do right in real life.

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21 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

And just to put a finer point on it, if I raised some of these points in the San Diego Homeschoolers FB group (which is run by two religious homeschoolers), it would be shut down immediately. We had a shooting in our community yesterday and there hasn't been a single post discussing it. Not one. That should speak volumes. Passover is an important holiday in Judaism. Huge. But, you wouldn't know that if you had no exposure to Judaism. If a Christian church was shot up on Easter in San Diego, I assure you, there would be discussion on our message board about it.

We're Orthodox Christians so today is our Easter which we celebrate with a midnight liturgy. Last night after liturgy, I was sitting by a man who is very involved in conservative politics. The family were homeschoolers when their kids were in school. He starts talking about "AOC," who is endlessly discussed on conservative media. I'm thinking seriously - this is the discussion on the same day as another synagogue shooting. 

 

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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Alright, I will engage with you on this since I am also local, and a Jew. I don't know this kid or this family, but I do know many of the east and north county homeschooling families. And many of them are certainly not doing all the "right things; " many are fundamentalists who homeschool so that they do not have to engage with a secular and pluralistic society, which I find to be downright frightening. Sadly, I have had to scrutinize the homeschooling events my Jewish kids attend because I have heard about proselytizing by these same homeschoolers. I have also heard from LGBTQ homeschoolers in our community having to be cautious for similar reasons. So, while I understand that this kid was not a homeschooler, I am still skeptical that his parents were doing all the right things.

Did his family read diverse books to him, where the minorities represented were fully fleshed-out characters and more than mere tokens? Did his parents have diverse friendships -- close friendships? How many POC, LGBTQ, and people with disabilities did this kid play with growing up? How many people outside of his family's social economic status, political POV, and religion did he play with? How many Passover seders, or Eid and Diwali celebrations did he attend? Did his family travel and expose him to people from other religions, cultures, and ways of life? Yeah, it's cool that he was a lifeguard, and that mom stayed home and dad was a science teacher, but unless he really engaged with the people at those "diverse public schools" (which so often does not happen), most of the benefits of those schools were likely lost on him. Again, I don't know this boy and his family from Adam. Perhaps they did do all the right things. But, I see too many families in our homeschooling community intentionally NOT doing these things. What kinds of feelings do they think they are breeding about Jews and those "others" when they intentionally do so? And yeah, I am hurt and angry and scared for my children right now.  

I understand how frightening this is for you. I am not a religious or a racial minority myself, but my husband is both. I am ethnically and linguistically a minority myself. I am very much personally concerned about these matters.

As far as how deeply did his family engage in educating their children in diversity? I don’t know. I don’t know them that well. I do know that they live in an extremely diverse neighborhood and they had good standing in the community so they must have gotten along with their neighbors. I know the public schools their children attend, and they reflect the neighborhood’s socio economic and racial diversity.  I know that his younger sister has diverse school friends. The dad teaches at and their children attend the most diverse school in the district. So, it could be true that the family’s focus was not diversity, but they were in no way sheltered from it. 

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I'm going to echo SeaConquest here, though we are not a Jewish family. (So I do not know much of the Synagogue attack, and my prayers and heart cries for your pain) and people love their bubbles and hate to explore outside of it. And if you don't fall in line with that bubble you are immediately not part of the community. 

Civility exists as long as you fall into the right crowds, at least by appearance if nothing else. People's words in person, on Facebook, even in passing can be extremely cruel and harsh, especially if you are in an area that doesn't see much diversity. And it seems unfortunate to say, the last four years has really heightened this to new levels that I'm scared for my children. And people from the top down don't address. It's a "both sides" issue, though it's one side carrying the bodies to a six foot hole in the ground. 

And we are just a minority race here, not even a minority religion or orientation or ability. 

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1 minute ago, Mabelen said:

I understand how frightening this is for you. I am not a religious or a racial minority myself, but my husband is both. I am ethnically and linguistically a minority myself. I am very much personally concerned about these matters.

As far as how deeply did his family engage in educating their children in diversity? I don’t know. I don’t know them that well. I do know that they live in an extremely diverse neighborhood and they had good standing in the community so they must have gotten along with their neighbors. I know the public schools their children attend, and they reflect the neighborhood’s socio economic and racial diversity.  I know that his younger sister has diverse school friends. The dad teaches at and their children attend the most diverse school in the district. So, it could be true that the family’s focus was not diversity, but they were in no way sheltered from it. 

I thought the dad taught at a Catholic school and the son had attended that school. Did he also attend public school? 

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Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I thought the dad taught at a Catholic school and the son had attended that school. Did he also attend public school? 

No, this is incorrect. It is a public school I know very well.

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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Alright, I will engage with you on this since I am also local, and a Jew. I don't know this kid or this family, but I do know many of the east and north county homeschooling families. And many of them are certainly not doing all the "right things; " many are fundamentalists who homeschool so that they do not have to engage with a secular and pluralistic society, which I find to be downright frightening. Sadly, I have had to scrutinize the homeschooling events my Jewish kids attend because I have heard about proselytizing by these same homeschoolers. I have also heard from LGBTQ homeschoolers in our community having to be cautious for similar reasons. So, while I understand that this kid was not a homeschooler, I am still skeptical that his parents were doing all the right things.

Did his family read diverse books to him, where the minorities represented were fully fleshed-out characters and more than mere tokens? Did his parents have diverse friendships -- close friendships? How many POC, LGBTQ, and people with disabilities did this kid play with growing up? How many people outside of his family's social economic status, political POV, and religion did he play with? How many Passover seders, or Eid and Diwali celebrations did he attend? Did his family travel and expose him to people from other religions, cultures, and ways of life? Yeah, it's cool that he was a lifeguard, and that mom stayed home and dad was a science teacher, but unless he really engaged with the people at those "diverse public schools" (which so often does not happen), most of the benefits of those schools were likely lost on him. Again, I don't know this boy and his family from Adam. Perhaps they did do all the right things. But, I see too many families in our homeschooling community intentionally NOT doing these things. What kinds of feelings do they think they are breeding about Jews and those "others" when they intentionally do so? And yeah, I am hurt and angry and scared for my children right now.  

Thank you for this eloquent post. Yes.

I find the whole "he had every advantage" line to be very hollow right now. White supremacy is very seductive if you don't get inoculated against it. I think some schools are trying, but most are not doing a great job. I think most white families don't have this on their radar. And we all should. All of us raising white boys should be thinking about this.

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7 minutes ago, Mabelen said:

No, this is incorrect. It is a public school I know very well.

I just confirmed this via google. I was confused because the school is named Mt. Carmel. 

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And to address you OP --- no. I don't think taking away guns is going to help with this. This is a cultural, societal problem, something that can only be eradicated with time, education, open hearts, and a desire to want to change. Look at how Ronald Reagan passed gun laws in California, it was only because he was threatened by Black Panthers having weapons. We make laws against guns, especially in the realm of seizing them, is going to disproportionately target minority groups like Blacks, Jews, Muslims, etc. 

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10 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Thank you for this eloquent post. Yes.

I find the whole "he had every advantage" line to be very hollow right now. White supremacy is very seductive if you don't get inoculated against it. I think some schools are trying, but most are not doing a great job. I think most white families don't have this on their radar. And we all should. All of us raising white boys should be thinking about this.

I was not just talking about advantage. His family is a middle class family of six living on a teacher’s salary in a high cost of living area, so their lifestyle is not exactly out of the ordinary. I was pointing out that he had grown up surrounded by socio economic and ethnic diversity and, as far as I know, had grown up in a religiously and politically moderate household and yet, he was radicalized online. Online radicalization is not only real, it is a global threat. Discussing the Sri Lanka bombings with my Sri Lankan relatives, this is a common thread.

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49 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:


I want to believe this.  I do.  But with social media I have seen the hearts of people.
I've watched my husband's family post racist, homophobic, supremacist jokes, articles, and comments.
I've watched Christian friends take offence on something supremely trivial and claiming that they're being marginalized and victimized (i.e. the news calling those in Sri Lanka Easter worshippers, not Christians, is offensive)
I've watched adults critique children, men scoff at women's rights.
I've watched devoted Catholics cut down politicians brutally and illogically, calling those who advocate for Catholic values "idiots"

I've seen their hearts behind what they present in person.  These are all people I never thought would harbor such thoughts, and if these people, the people I thought were loving and kind and torches of light....if these people are presenting such ugly ways, it is not hard for me to imagine what is lurking in others' minds.  This is civilization stripped down to its nakedness and it is not kind and decent.  And these thoughts will guide their actions and whether they are brave enough to do right in real life.

 

The Sri Lanka thing isn't trivial, and the reason people are offended by being called "Easter Worshippers" is exactly because people try to trivialize Christians being killed. Those people were killed because they were Christians and in church on Easter.

I've seen people call those who disagree with them the Devil, Nazis, etc.

I've seen those who believe not all men are evil women haters insulted and screamed at for not towing the line.

I've seen devoted Catholics been cut down and screamed at by non-Catholics and politicians for advocating for Catholic values. 

See how this works? The world is 100% not civil these days, and it goes both ways. I for one would live in an extremely un-civil environment if I were to come out as a non-liberal. My work place would be extremely hostile.

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3 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

The Sri Lanka thing isn't trivial, and the reason people are offended by being called "Easter Worshippers" is exactly because people try to trivialize Christians being killed. Those people were killed because they were Christians and in church on Easter.

I've seen people call those who disagree with them the Devil, Nazis, etc.

I've seen those who believe not all men are evil women haters insulted and screamed at for not towing the line.

I've seen devoted Catholics been cut down and screamed at by non-Catholics and politicians for advocating for Catholic values. 

See how this works? The world is 100% not civil these days, and it goes both ways. I for one would live in an extremely un-civil environment if I were to come out as a non-liberal. My work place would be extremely hostile.

You seemed to have missed the lesson on time, place, and focus.
When people are killed, it is not time for you to scream that they were not called Gay, Jews, Muslims, Christians, or anything other than people and their purpose for being there.  It is a time to show compassion and care and choose your own words.

You have missed the point.  Entirely and completely.

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9 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

The Sri Lanka thing isn't trivial, and the reason people are offended by being called "Easter Worshippers" is exactly because people try to trivialize Christians being killed. Those people were killed because they were Christians and in church on Easter.

I've seen people call those who disagree with them the Devil, Nazis, etc.

I've seen those who believe not all men are evil women haters insulted and screamed at for not towing the line.

I've seen devoted Catholics been cut down and screamed at by non-Catholics and politicians for advocating for Catholic values. 

See how this works? The world is 100% not civil these days, and it goes both ways. I for one would live in an extremely un-civil environment if I were to come out as a non-liberal. My work place would be extremely hostile.

"Easter Worshipers" was a manufactured controversy. I've watched it long enough to see the pattern. HRC and Obama wrote "Easter Worshippers" so everyone on a certain side decided to be offended and then they began repeating it in the echo chamber. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

"Easter Worshipers" was a manufactured controversy. I've watched it long enough to see the pattern. HRC and Obama wrote "Easter Worshippers" so everyone on a certain side decided to be offended and then they began repeating it in the echo chamber. 

 

Especially when Fox News used the same exact term the day before the Sri Lanka bombings to refer to the people displaced from the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and no one batted an eyelid.

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56 minutes ago, Mabelen said:

I understand how frightening this is for you. I am not a religious or a racial minority myself, but my husband is both. I am ethnically and linguistically a minority myself. I am very much personally concerned about these matters.

As far as how deeply did his family engage in educating their children in diversity? I don’t know. I don’t know them that well. I do know that they live in an extremely diverse neighborhood and they had good standing in the community so they must have gotten along with their neighbors. I know the public schools their children attend, and they reflect the neighborhood’s socio economic and racial diversity.  I know that his younger sister has diverse school friends. The dad teaches at and their children attend the most diverse school in the district. So, it could be true that the family’s focus was not diversity, but they were in no way sheltered from it. 

 

Mt. Carmel is known to be a good school in a good school district, and Niche gives it an A+ for diversity, so I assume you are correct. But, I spent my youth in LA Unified Schools, and I saw how racially segregated public schools can be -- sometimes as bad as prisons. I know that I seriously have to make a point to have diverse friendships or I find myself just naturally gravitating to people just like me. But, the rewards of diverse friendships are enormous -- they have enriched my life and the lives of my children beyond measure. I have two Muslim friends who wear hijab, and because of them, we have been able to have discussions about it with my sons that are so much more full and complex. We've seen our Muslim friends struggle with fasting during Ramadan and experienced the joy of Eid. We've talked about the difficulties of Arab-Israeli relations. Our African American friends helped my children to understand the effects of systemic racism. Our Mexican American and Native American friends helped them to better understand the complicated history of California and the United States. Our LGBTQ friends help them understand discrimination and the fight for civil rights. Yes, we could talk about these things and read about these things, but these are their friends. As they say, the s*it just got real. I'm exhausted and worn down, and not really giving very articulate examples at the moment, but these friendships are part of the fabric of our lives, and intentionally so. It's the best I can do to inoculate them from hatred, so they hopefully don't turn into fundamentalist Jews someday.

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1 hour ago, Mabelen said:

Especially when Fox News used the same exact term the day before the Sri Lanka bombings to refer to the people displaced from the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and no one batted an eyelid.

 

I just looked this up. Fox News ran an AP story that used the phrase. It wasn't one of the Fox writers or reporters or commentators.

I don't care who uses "Easter Worshippers." It sounds awkward to my ears and much easier to say tourists and Christians. 

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2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:


I want to believe this.  I do.  But with social media I have seen the hearts of people.
I've watched my husband's family post racist, homophobic, supremacist jokes, articles, and comments.
I've watched Christian friends take offence on something supremely trivial and claiming that they're being marginalized and victimized (i.e. the news calling those in Sri Lanka Easter worshippers, not Christians, is offensive)
I've watched adults critique children, men scoff at women's rights.
I've watched devoted Catholics cut down politicians brutally and illogically, calling those who advocate for Catholic values "idiots"

I've seen their hearts behind what they present in person.  These are all people I never thought would harbor such thoughts, and if these people, the people I thought were loving and kind and torches of light....if these people are presenting such ugly ways, it is not hard for me to imagine what is lurking in others' minds.  This is civilization stripped down to its nakedness and it is not kind and decent.  And these thoughts will guide their actions and whether they are brave enough to do right in real life.

It's so confusing, isn't it!  Because I see people like that online too...and it is very discouraging.  But it's also psychologically very curious, because sometimes when I see those same people out and about in real life, in person, I see them being very decent to the very people they're condemning online.  It's like the personal individual contact feels different to them than the judgey mass group effect.   Sometimes I wonder if it's  1) That they're being hypocritical in real life and holding in their real thoughts/feelings, or 2)  When they're actually with an individual of the group they purport to either hate or judge, it feels totally different to them.  They're engaging on a much more personal level which causes their "mass group effect opinion" (sorry, I don't know what to call it!) to temporarily lift.

That doesn't address everything you say, only the kind of mass group effect (whether online or not I suppose) that seems to take hold of some people's minds, but maybe actually not their hearts.

I dunno, I guess I still want to see something hopeful in those people.  

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3 hours ago, Mabelen said:

I was not just talking about advantage. His family is a middle class family of six living on a teacher’s salary in a high cost of living area, so their lifestyle is not exactly out of the ordinary. I was pointing out that he had grown up surrounded by socio economic and ethnic diversity and, as far as I know, had grown up in a religiously and politically moderate household and yet, he was radicalized online. Online radicalization is not only real, it is a global threat. Discussing the Sri Lanka bombings with my Sri Lankan relatives, this is a common thread.

 

Yes. And as umsami said above, it's a fear for many parents, from all kinds of backgrounds.

I think we are failing, as a global society, to grapple with many malign influences which are largely spread online. Whilst white supremacy is one of these disturbing influences, there are many others.  

I agree with other posters that anti-Semitism is both on the rise, and a type of hatred which is not treated as urgently as it should be. I think that's largely related to political issues, with many progressive people allowing their ongoing disagreement with successive Israeli governments regarding Palestine to drain their empathy with the Jewish people. 

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1 hour ago, unsinkable said:

 

I just looked this up. Fox News ran an AP story that used the phrase. It wasn't one of the Fox writers or reporters or commentators.

I don't care who uses "Easter Worshippers." It sounds awkward to my ears and much easier to say tourists and Christians. 

 

Saying Easter worshippers is just dumb. If you are worshipping in a Christian Church, and it's Easter, you are 99.9% likely to be a Christian. So yeah, just say Christians and tourists. It's not like cathedrals are full to the brim of pagans on Easter Sunday.

Silly use of language. 

Those Sri Lankans and others murdered in churches were murdered as Christians. 

Those murdered in hotels were murdered as tourists or citizens. 

The murderers attacked Christians, Sri Lankan citizens and tourists. 

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I will say though, that I don't think lack of attendance at any communities religious ceremonies is a contributor to white radicalisation. 

My kids have never been to a Passover seder, or an Eid celebration. Neither have I, for that matter. These are not things we've ever received invites to. My only Jewish friends are online. Hasn't ever stopped me caring about anti-Semistism, being concerned for the Jewish people as a whole, or interrogating my pro-Palestine politics for anti-Semitism, things I attribute to a decent high school modern history education.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 

I think we are failing, as a global society, to grapple with many malign influences which are largely spread online. Whilst white supremacy is one of these disturbing influences, there are many others.  

 

I was reading an article that named the online group that this killer and the Christchurch killer both frequented.  Then I found this:  https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/gab-and-8chan-home-to-terrorist-plots-hiding-in-plain-sight

I know very little about tech stuff, but it seems to me that someone should be able to shut down that website since the members are encouraging each other to kill and they seem to want to share their crimes "live" with each other.  At the very least, isn't it possible to identify these people and even send local law enforcement to their homes so that they know (and maybe their parents, too) that they aren't as anonymous as they think.   Governments already have "watch lists" for others...can't these people be put on the same kind of watch list, too, since they are obviously encouraging each other to kill???     

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2 minutes ago, Laurie said:

I was reading an article that named the online group that this killer and the Christchurch killer both frequented.  Then I found this:  https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/gab-and-8chan-home-to-terrorist-plots-hiding-in-plain-sight

I know very little about tech stuff, but it seems to me that someone should be able to shut down that website since the members are encouraging each other to kill and they seem to want to share their crimes "live" with each other.  At the very least, isn't it possible to identify these people and even send local law enforcement to their homes so that they know (and maybe their parents, too) that they aren't as anonymous as they think.   Governments already have "watch lists" for others...can't these people be put on the same kind of watch list, too, since they are obviously encouraging each other to kill???     

 

You'd think so, right ? 

I'm a free speech advocate, and even I think once you get to actual incitement to violence, that crosses a line that needs to be quickly and effectively dealt with.

 

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22 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yes. And as umsami said above, it's a fear for many parents, from all kinds of backgrounds.

I think we are failing, as a global society, to grapple with many malign influences which are largely spread online. Whilst white supremacy is one of these disturbing influences, there are many others.  

I agree with other posters that anti-Semitism is both on the rise, and a type of hatred which is not treated as urgently as it should be. I think that's largely related to political issues, with many progressive people allowing their ongoing disagreement with successive Israeli governments regarding Palestine to drain their empathy with the Jewish people. 

This I blame on people labeling anything that is critical of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.  They are different, but we do not allow much debate on anything regarding Israel here without labeling it as anti-Semitism.  That does not seem to be an issue in Europe AFAIK.

Just saw that the NY Times got dinged for anti-Semitism today for running a cartoon of Netenyahu on a dog leash tied to Trump. I haven't seen the cartoon, but to me that is strictlly political and has nothing to do with hatred of Jews.  Netenyahu has a lot of baggage....as does Trump....and should not be a forbidden topic for political cartoons.

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7 minutes ago, umsami said:

This I blame on people labeling anything that is critical of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.  They are different, but we do not allow much debate on anything regarding Israel here without labeling it as anti-Semitism.  That does not seem to be an issue in Europe AFAIK.

Just saw that the NY Times got dinged for anti-Semitism today for running a cartoon of Netenyahu on a dog leash tied to Trump. I haven't seen the cartoon, but to me that is strictlly political and has nothing to do with hatred of Jews.  Netenyahu has a lot of baggage....as does Trump....and should not be a forbidden topic for political cartoons.

Europe is struggling mightily with anti-Semitism right now, across multiple countries. It’s awful - I agree with Stella that a lack of empathy and dehumanizing/othering those we view as opposing our views surely doesn’t help.

 

And the cartoon was bad.  baaaad.  Like drawing Obama as a monkey levels of bad, in terms of loaded symbolism. It could have been handled much better and still made a similar point, IMO.  Here’s a link:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/440957-ny-times-opinion-apologizes-for-cartoon-depicting-anti-semitic-tropes

Edited by Arctic Mama
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1 minute ago, umsami said:

This I blame on people labeling anything that is critical of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.  They are different, but we do not allow much debate on anything regarding Israel here without labeling it as anti-Semitism.  That does not seem to be an issue in Europe AFAIK.

Just saw that the NY Times got dinged for anti-Semitism today for running a cartoon of Netenyahu on a dog leash tied to Trump. I haven't seen the cartoon, but to me that is strictlly political and has nothing to do with hatred of Jews.  Netenyahu has a lot of baggage....as does Trump....and should not be a forbidden topic for political cartoons.

 

I think a non-Jewish supporter of Palestinians, like myself, needs to be very careful not to conflate anti-Israeli government policy with Jewishness. Anti-semitism is a bigotry with deep roots, particularly in Europe. I know I have had to be careful to learn the perspective of Israeli Jews, and their desire for a protected homeland, and empathise with that desire, even as I disagree with the politics on how that is achieved. I think it is very easy, as a person of the left, to be somewhat anti-Semitic. 

I 100% agree that Netenyahu should not be a forbidden topic for political cartoons.

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3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Europe is struggling mightily with anti-Semitism right now, across multiple countries. It’s awful - I agree with Stella that a lack of empathy and dehumanizing/othering those we view as opposing our views surely doesn’t help.

 

And the cartoon was bad.  baaaad.  Like drawing Obama as a monkey levels of bad, in terms of loaded symbolism.  Here’s a link:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/440957-ny-times-opinion-apologizes-for-cartoon-depicting-anti-semitic-tropes

 

I just looked at it. 

I loathe Netenyahu as a political figure, but I am mighty uncomfortable with him being drawn as a dog with a Star of David collar. 

 

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2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I just looked at it. 

I loathe Netenyahu as a political figure, but I am mighty uncomfortable with him being drawn as a dog with a Star of David collar. 

 

That was my problem too.  It was just not appropriate.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Europe is struggling mightily with anti-Semitism right now, across multiple countries. It’s awful - I agree with Stella that a lack of empathy and dehumanizing/othering those we view as opposing our views surely doesn’t help.

 

And the cartoon was bad.  baaaad.  Like drawing Obama as a monkey levels of bad, in terms of loaded symbolism. It could have been handled much better and still made a similar point, IMO.  Here’s a link:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/440957-ny-times-opinion-apologizes-for-cartoon-depicting-anti-semitic-tropes

Thanks for the link.  Yeah, I agree this cartoon went too far.  Could have made the same point in a better way.

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On 4/27/2019 at 1:28 PM, umsami said:

And in other hate crimes, a driver plowed into a crowd in California because he thought there were Muslims in the crowd.  He was on his way to Bible class.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-california-pedestrians-hit-20190426-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2eweZJUUOyiPG_6VHmy2C3MziQJiZa2Phv4GNu5CYFlMH7Z0NpiXOwgbI

"An Iraq War veteran deliberately drove into a group of pedestrians because he thought some of the people were Muslim, California authorities said Friday.

Isaiah Joel Peoples, 34, faces eight counts of attempted murder for injuring eight people, including four who remain hospitalized. The most seriously injured is a 13-year-old Sunnyvale girl of South Asian descent who is in a coma with severe brain trauma."


It's not just guns.  It's the hate speech and support of hate groups that happens from the highest level now.  I'm sure the Iraq veteran and the synagogue shooter are all very fine people, right?

 

 

 

This incident was the closest I have been to a mass hate crime. I was a block away from the place inside my son's music teacher's house when the police cars were racing past. Later I learned that the driver drove into a group of pedestrians on the sidewalk because their ethnicity made him conclude that they could have been muslims. That sidewalk where they were attacked is outside a popular Trader Joe's location and many of the victims were walking over to TJ's that day. My area is a true melting pot of all cultures and races,  the communities are diverse and some ethnic minorities in other parts of the US are not considered minorities because of the large populations settled here. And still, this ugliness rears its head in one of the most liberal and welcoming areas that I have ever been to.

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14 hours ago, umsami said:

This I blame on people labeling anything that is critical of the Israeli government as anti-Semitism.  They are different, but we do not allow much debate on anything regarding Israel here without labeling it as anti-Semitism.  That does not seem to be an issue in Europe AFAIK.

 

This. In the U.S. at least it seems you are either pro-Israel in the Israel-Palestine conflict, or you're anti-Semitic. There is a section of the political spectrum that won't allow the two to be separated, thereby making debate always end with those who are pro Palestine being called anti-Semites.

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I thought this article in the Daily Beast made some interesting points. I think we're seeing the disconnect discussed in the article play out in this thread. 

Quote

Depends who you ask: progressives say nationalist, racist ideology, while conservatives say hate. The difference may seem slight, but in fact, it’s why right and left talk past one another—and seem to be moving farther apart.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/poway-synagogue-shooting-why-conservatives-keep-getting-anti-semitism-wrong?ref=home

Edited by Ordinary Shoes

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This is home for me, too.  I am sick at heart.  The horror and evil in our world seems so much more real when it comes to your home.  I have been crying--and yes, praying--for our Jewish brothers and sisters.  The rising anti-semitism in our nation is sickening.  That cartoon in the NYT is blatant and disgusting.  

 

Those who offer prayer for victims of disasters are not doing nothing.  It would be "doing nothing" for someone who did not believe in the existence of a divine being with the ability to intercede in the lives of men to offer words to nobody.  It is not "doing nothing" for someone who actually believes in such a being to ask for his help for those in need of his aid.  Why wouldn't we?

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The objection to "thoughts and prayers" is that "thoughts and prayers" are rarely accompanied by anything else. It's a trite response that is usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself instead of being about the victims. 

How many of the people expressing sorrow over this tragedy are honestly attempting to grapple with what motivated this shooter? He was pretty clear about his motivations. This isn't like some of the other recent shootings (like Las Vegas) where we are left guessing about why it happened. He was clear and it fits clearly into a historical pattern we've seen over and over again. And as recently as 6 months ago in Pittsburgh. 

 

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3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The objection to "thoughts and prayers" is that "thoughts and prayers" are rarely accompanied by anything else. It's a trite response that is usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself instead of being about the victims. 

How many of the people expressing sorrow over this tragedy are honestly attempting to grapple with what motivated this shooter? He was pretty clear about his motivations. This isn't like some of the other recent shootings (like Las Vegas) where we are left guessing about why it happened. He was clear and it fits clearly into a historical pattern we've seen over and over again. And as recently as 6 months ago in Pittsburgh. 

 

 

Indeed:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/04/29/white-supremacist-violence-has-long-history-san-diego/?fbclid=IwAR2WnpJpsS0KdxmbSh8RTJ0g344R2_RU-fGzLOP-cCUDATdJuR8zyGEvKwA

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The objection to "thoughts and prayers" is that, as a very general stereotype, those whose first response to tragedy is an exercise of faith are assumed to be likely to disagree on possible courses of action with those who respond differently, and so the latter use this reasoning you describe to justify deriding the faith of the former.

 

On what facts do you base your statement that :

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

"thoughts and prayers" are rarely accompanied by anything else. It's a trite response that is usually intended to make the person sending "thoughts and prayers" feel good about him/herself instead of being about the victims. 

and your implication that people who pray for victims do not honestly attempt to grapple with the causes of these tragedies?  Is it honestly based on something other than your assumptions about people with a different perspective from your own?

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