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MaBelle
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Short and simple.  My parents divorced after 35 yrs of marriage because of (one of many) affairs my dad had.  Since he married the latest woman about 20 years or more ago my brothers have had a very strained relationship with him.  Dad will not even admit to knowing this woman before the divorce.  Dad frequently mentions to me how he misses the boys but dismisses the idea that his behavior could have caused any of the strain.  I know that if he even said "I'm sorry" it would go a long way with the brothers.  I also think dad is bullheaded and won't ever admit wrong doing.

Dad is in his 80s.  I'm afraid the boys will regret their behavior after he is gone, but at the same time I'm not sure there is anything I can do?

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If you have a good relationship with your brothers, I suppose you could bring up the concern of regrets when it's too late to have a relationship, other that that I feel it's up to your Dad and your brothers to move toward each other - or not.  Hugs. Never an easy situation.

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29 minutes ago, MaBelle said:

Short and simple.  My parents divorced after 35 yrs of marriage because of (one of many) affairs my dad had.  Since he married the latest woman about 20 years or more ago my brothers have had a very strained relationship with him.  Dad will not even admit to knowing this woman before the divorce.  Dad frequently mentions to me how he misses the boys but dismisses the idea that his behavior could have caused any of the strain.  I know that if he even said "I'm sorry" it would go a long way with the brothers.  I also think dad is bullheaded and won't ever admit wrong doing.

Dad is in his 80s.  I'm afraid the boys will regret their behavior after he is gone, but at the same time I'm not sure there is anything I can do?

When he mentions to you he misses the boys what do you say?  

When my XH apologized to my ds it did go a loooong way toward repairing their relationship.  

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Everyone has their own criteria for relationships.  My sisters, brother, and I each have different approaches to our father that work best for us.  In my case, that’s been no relationship in the past 23 years, give or take, and I made peace with that more than 20 years ago.  I don’t like the idea that there may be people who walk around thinking I should/will have regrets. I know what’s best for me. My siblings know what’s best for them. 

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My dad was a serial adulterer and a drunk, so my mother divorced him when my brother and I were babies. He got sober after she left so he could see us. He married and divorced 2 more times before we finished high school. He's been single since.

When it comes to your brothers, you could point out to them that dad could die at any moment due to his age. (I'm surprised how many people have an elderly relative over 70 that they really don't expect to die anytime soon. Uh, statistics, people. Yeah, you know of people in their 90s, but you know far more who died after 70.) Anything they've been telling themselves they'll do "later" needs to be done now.  Later is now. If they're professing Christians you can remind them what Scripture says about forgiveness and how to treat anyone you perceive as an enemy. If they're not professing Christians you might point out to them that forgiveness doesn't have to be preceded by an apology.

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50 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

When he mentions to you he misses the boys what do you say?  

 

I pointed out that he has been estranged from the boys for the same amount of time that the divorce took place.  His response??  "Oh, that has nothing to do with it."

Complete denial.

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16 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

 

When it comes to your brothers, you could point out to them that dad could die at any moment due to his age. (I'm surprised how many people have an elderly relative over 70 that they really don't expect to die anytime soon. Uh, statistics, people. Yeah, you know of people in their 90s, but you know far more who died after 70.) Anything they've been telling themselves they'll do "later" needs to be done now.  Later is now. If they're professing Christians you can remind them what Scripture says about forgiveness and how to treat anyone you perceive as an enemy. If they're not professing Christians you might point out to them that forgiveness doesn't have to be preceded by an apology.

Good point.  They are both Christian and on top of that really good men with stable families and looked up to in our hometown.  I am really surprised this has gone on for so long especially considering how close they were growing up.

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1 minute ago, MaBelle said:

Good point.  They are both Christian and on top of that really good men with stable families and looked up to in our hometown.  I am really surprised this has gone on for so long especially considering how close they were growing up.

I'm not.  Trauma is developmental. As a person who experienced traumatic experiences in childhood gets to a new developmental stage, it's normal to reprocess the traumatic experience in the new light of broader understanding, complexity, and nuance.  When some people from broken homes have their own marriages and kids, they have a different, much more emotionally intense perspective on something like adultery, abandonment, divorce, pedophelia....because they're now in the same parental role as their offending parent, but they wouldn't even consider an affair because they know from personal experience what it feels like to deal with the fall out, and they wouldn't do that to their kids. A natural result of that is anger and behavior that goes with anger. Not everyone goes through that, but some people do and it's hard on everyone.

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1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My dad was a serial adulterer and a drunk, so my mother divorced him when my brother and I were babies. He got sober after she left so he could see us. He married and divorced 2 more times before we finished high school. He's been single since.

When it comes to your brothers, you could point out to them that dad could die at any moment due to his age. (I'm surprised how many people have an elderly relative over 70 that they really don't expect to die anytime soon. Uh, statistics, people. Yeah, you know of people in their 90s, but you know far more who died after 70.) Anything they've been telling themselves they'll do "later" needs to be done now.  Later is now. If they're professing Christians you can remind them what Scripture says about forgiveness and how to treat anyone you perceive as an enemy. If they're not professing Christians you might point out to them that forgiveness doesn't have to be preceded by an apology.

We have had the forgiveness discussion on this board about 1000 times.  I am of the mind that forgiveness, in the Christian sense, DOES require remorse, repentance whatever.  But even if/when there is repentance that would allow for forgiveness that does NOT require the relationship to be completely restored or at all.  And also, even without forgiveness a person who has been harmed CAN let it go and move on but the relationship won't ever be the same.  I think it takes quite a bit of work to get back to the same place after something like blowing up a family with an affair/s.  

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1 hour ago, MaBelle said:

Good point.  They are both Christian and on top of that really good men with stable families and looked up to in our hometown.  I am really surprised this has gone on for so long especially considering how close they were growing up.

Not me.  Sometimes the closer you are to someone the more it hurts when they do you wrong.  And then add to that your dad doesn't think he has done anything wrong....sometimes it is hard to undo those bad feelings.  

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My paternal cousin (late 70s) was the one who committed adultery and his kids (oldest is 47) are all too happy to wash their hands off him before their parents divorce was finalized. Seriously the only reason that cousin would say he miss his kids from the first marriage is if he runs out of money and his second wife (who has kids out of wedlock with him) kicks him out. He is and has always been selfish.

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1 hour ago, MaBelle said:

Good point.  They are both Christian and on top of that really good men with stable families and looked up to in our hometown.  I am really surprised this has gone on for so long especially considering how close they were growing up.

To you, it might be something that’s “gone on for so long”, but that might not be the case for them. *I don’t consider my non-relationship to be something that’s actively happening. It ended long ago, just like various other relationships from my childhood. No spite, no anger, no pretending.  It is possible to let go of pain and still choose to cut ties.  In some cases, particularly when denial is involved, it can even be necessary.

The one sister (a family counselor, fwiw) who does still speak to our father does not allow him to try to put her in the middle.  She happens to be the youngest full sibling in the birth order.  I’m the oldest.  Our experiences were all very different based on developmental stages, so we CAN’T speak for one another.

I happen to be a pretty darn good person with a great family and strong community ties.  Is there a particular reason that that should be a surprise?

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I want to say, I repeatedly had people tell me how I would 'regret" the relationship I had with my grandmother.

she's been dead 25 years - I dont' regret a thing.  (well, not writing down genealogy information, but that's something else.)

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Mourning what "should" have been isn't the same thing as regretting how one chose to deal with the realities that were.

I'm not going to regret my choice to avoid reconciling with my father. What would reconciliation even mean when the only feeling I can muster is disgust? He chose to be so fundamentally unlikeable that estrangement is the only civilised option.

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I've always tried to live by the philosophy of "When someone shows you who they are, believe them"

I spent years trying to build a healthy relationship with my mother after she married my 3rd stepfather. The two of them were train wrecks who, once they met each other, really picked up their dysfunction. My stepfather's daughter cut him out of her life completely, while I tried to stay and work with them. In the end she was the one who missed all the tears, all the lies and all the betrayal they dished out. She was definitely the smarter one.

If the father isn't changing his attitude, or taking responsibility for anything, then I would leave it alone.

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3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

why are you so concerned about your brothers having a relationship with your father?  he doesn't sound bullheaded - he sounds like a narcissist.

For starters, for all his faults he is my father and I love him very much.  He has supported, encouraged, backed me up and been a solid rock for me in some bad times.  He took calls from me every. single. freaking. day when I needed him, listened to me cry and gave me solid advice.

Why I want to help him is not  the  question here.

Edited by MaBelle
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1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Your question is, "Is there anything I can do?" 

No, I don't think there is.  I could write a book on some experiences we've had on this, but the cliff notes advice I would give would be to accept and support where everyone is at with regards to their feelings towards one another. 

 

That is pretty much what I was afraid of.  Thanks.

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3 hours ago, MaBelle said:

For starters, for all his faults he is my father and I love him very much.  He has supported, encouraged, backed me up and been a solid rock for me in some bad times.  He took calls from me every. single. freaking. day when I needed him, listened to me cry and gave me solid advice.

Why I want to help him is not  the  question here.

I'm asking this very gently.  Is there any chance that your father didn't do that for your brothers?

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6 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Mourning what "should" have been isn't the same thing as regretting how one chose to deal with the realities that were.

I'm not going to regret my choice to avoid reconciling with my father. What would reconciliation even mean when the only feeling I can muster is disgust? He chose to be so fundamentally unlikeable that estrangement is the only civilised option.

ding ding ding.  we have a winner.

4 hours ago, MaBelle said:

For starters, for all his faults he is my father and I love him very much.  He has supported, encouraged, backed me up and been a solid rock for me in some bad times.  He took calls from me every. single. freaking. day when I needed him, listened to me cry and gave me solid advice.

Why I want to help him is not  the  question here.

respect your brothers enough to allow them their own choice. they are not you, and they had a different relationship with your father than did you.   just because you think they would have regrets - doesn't mean they will.

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

respect your brothers enough to allow them their own choice. they are not you, and they had a different relationship with your father than did you.   just because you think they would have regrets - doesn't mean they will.

HIs wife, who respects him a great deal and knows him better than I do has a different opinion.

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If your brothers have not regretted being low-contact for the past 20 years, they're not going to regret it any time in the next 20 or 40 years. Likewise, if your father really regretted it, he'd do the one thing he is capable of doing to help them forgive - acknowledge his wrongdoing and make amends. If he hasn't done that, he probably doesn't really miss his adult sons (they are not boys any more than you are a girl) as much as all that. Because I promise, he knows what he should do. If he's chosen not to do it, that's on him. And your brothers no doubt have heard variations on "you'll regret it when he's gone!" for the past 20 years. They don't need to hear it one more time from you.

Let it go. Focus on your relationships with these people, and let them handle their own affairs.

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Your brothers have the relationship they are comfortable with. Leave it at that. Sure, everyone may wish for something different, but damage has been done and this is the fall out from that. My mom and I have a very different relationship than she has with my sisters. She raised me different on purpose and our lack of relationship is a direct result. It used to upset me, but then I realized that our relationship, is one that she and I are both comfortable with. I can never be who she wants me to be.....she will never be who I wish she was.  There are about 6 times in my life that pivotable events happened. She was absent, by her own choice at each of them. Even if I wanted an apology for the hurt she caused me, it wouldn't matter in the long run. The damage is done. She continued to make the same types of decisions over and over, and I trust that she will continue to make those same decisions. Those decisions hurt me, so I avoid having a relationship with her, to protect myself. I see it over an over in my friends who have similar parent issues. Once the trust is gone, the parent/child relationship is forever changed. Some people can form a new relationship, some can't. I don't miss having a relationship with my mom, because I never had one in the first place. 

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11 hours ago, amyx4 said:

I'm asking this very gently.  Is there any chance that your father didn't do that for your brothers?

Sure doesn't seem so.  Dad is a doctor, brother 1 is too, and brother 2 is a hospital administrator.  Dad has helped with their careers, even after the estrangement.  Growing up they always seemed very close.  It is confusing to me. 

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21 hours ago, klmama said:

I don't think it's that surprising.  It's really hard for many guys to forgive their dads for cheating on their moms.  

 

My nephew and nieces have the emotional baggage of worrying that relationships and marriages would fail, history repeating itself 😞 Their dad and late grandpa are womanizers.

My agnostic 46 year old nephew married at 22 and his marriage is still strong 🙂 His younger sisters (early 40s) aren’t married. 

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11 hours ago, MaBelle said:

HIs wife, who respects him a great deal and knows him better than I do has a different opinion.

my dh used to tell me my grandmother wasn't as bad as I thought she was, and that I was just "oversensitive".  until one day at least 10 years after we had been married, he learned I wasn't exaggerating and even he admitted, yeah - she really was that bad.

when someone refuses to take responsibility for their actions - or treat you with respect, you can talk about the relationship you wish you had, but that doesn't make it possible to have that relationship.

so - respect your brothers enough to allow them their own choices.

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10 hours ago, Tap said:

Your brothers have the relationship they are comfortable with. Leave it at that. Sure, everyone may wish for something different, but damage has been done and this is the fall out from that. My mom and I have a very different relationship than she has with my sisters. She raised me different on purpose and our lack of relationship is a direct result. It used to upset me, but then I realized that our relationship, is one that she and I are both comfortable with. I can never be who she wants me to be.....she will never be who I wish she was.  There are about 6 times in my life that pivotable events happened. She was absent, by her own choice at each of them. Even if I wanted an apology for the hurt she caused me, it wouldn't matter in the long run. The damage is done. She continued to make the same types of decisions over and over, and I trust that she will continue to make those same decisions. Those decisions hurt me, so I avoid having a relationship with her, to protect myself. I see it over an over in my friends who have similar parent issues. Once the trust is gone, the parent/child relationship is forever changed. Some people can form a new relationship, some can't. I don't miss having a relationship with my mom, because I never had one in the first place. 

this.  I used to fantasize about what would happen if my grandmother came and begged me for forgiveness.   I realized - it really didn't matter.  I was still stuck cleaning up a huge mess.

but I have met people who don't care if they're making a mess in peoples lives - they then think all they have to do is say "sorry", and they have to be forgiven.   and then there are people who won't even say sorry - but expect everything to be fine and dandy, hunky dory.  doesn't work that way.

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15 hours ago, Tap said:

 I don't miss having a relationship with my mom, because I never had one in the first place. 

It’s hard to understand unless you’ve lived it, but this is very true.  When the person dies, it’s not a loss at that point.  The loss happened years and years ago; the mourning period already came and went.  

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5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

  and then there are people who won't even say sorry - but expect everything to be fine and dandy, hunky dory.  doesn't work that way.

 

11 minutes ago, Garga said:

It’s hard to understand unless you’ve lived it, but this is very true.  When the person dies, it’s not a loss at that point.  The loss happened years and years ago; the mourning period already came and went.  

 

My womanizing late uncle’s death brought closure (relief of burden). His kids (including the womanizing one) didn’t want a relationship with him but felt morally obligated to pay for his hospice care so that he doesn’t die homeless and drunk (he was good at begging for drinks and was an alcoholic) on the streets. The three DILs did pop in now and then to make sure the hospice wasn’t slacking but none of the three sons and two daughters wanted to visit.

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55 minutes ago, Garga said:

It’s hard to understand unless you’ve lived it, but this is very true.  When the person dies, it’s not a loss at that point.  The loss happened years and years ago; the mourning period already came and went.  

my mother was, mostly, the dutiful daughter to her covert narcissist mother. (and raised her children to think her opinion was the cat's meow.)  she had plenty of fender benders going to or coming from her mother's retirement apartment.

when grandmother died - my mother felt nothing but relief.

 

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9 hours ago, MaBelle said:

Brother's wife.  She's worried about it.  

 

I used to worry about it too with my xh and his brothers concerning their relationship with their mother. .  I strongly encouraged my xh to keep trying, to honor her, to keep going to see her, even after all she did to him, to me, to us and to the other family.  I won’t make that mistake again—with anyone. I think if he had cut her out of his life he might could have held himself together enough to not destroy our marriage.  

My step sister has a saying about difficult and toxic people.....save yourself first.  

Edited by Scarlett
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On 4/23/2019 at 5:00 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

Mourning what "should" have been isn't the same thing as regretting how one chose to deal with the realities that were.

I'm not going to regret my choice to avoid reconciling with my father. What would reconciliation even mean when the only feeling I can muster is disgust? He chose to be so fundamentally unlikeable that estrangement is the only civilised option.

I was trying to think of this exact thing.  When my mom died I mourned what should have been but never was.  I never regretted putting my foot down and having a line in the sand.  I don't think your brothers will regret having morals and sticking to them.  

 

hugs to MaBelle.  I know we all want that hallmark card experience with relationships.  People are messy and most times it just doesn't happen that way. 

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I agree with the poster who said, this isn't "still going on." To your brothers this is long dead and buried. 

I also know, both from experience, and from many years on forums on the internet, that it is really, really really common for spouses to think that their husband/wife should reconcile with their estranged parent or else they'll regret it. Like near 100%. They're not right, and usually do a lot of damage trying to push the spouse to reconcile before they either give up or realize how wrong they are. 

My husband knew me better than anyone on earth and he thought I should let my dad back in our lives. He was wrong. 🤷‍♂️

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2 hours ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I agree with the poster who said, this isn't "still going on." To your brothers this is long dead and buried. 

I also know, both from experience, and from many years on forums on the internet, that it is really, really really common for spouses to think that their husband/wife should reconcile with their estranged parent or else they'll regret it. Like near 100%. They're not right, and usually do a lot of damage trying to push the spouse to reconcile before they either give up or realize how wrong they are. 

My husband knew me better than anyone on earth and he thought I should let my dad back in our lives. He was wrong. 🤷‍♂️

my dd (gets along with almost everyone) encouraged her dh visit with his parents when they were there (different state) last summer.   they've only been married four years.  she told me she will now never ever say anything to him about it to him again.  something happened, and he ended up walking out of his parents house and going to a buddy's house and stayed there until their flight home.  they will go to that city (went in march?april?), and they stay with the buddy - and NOT tell his parents he's there.

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