S/o Autism rates increasing and adults never diagnosed

[Ausmumof3]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

I don’t think that’s fair. We all have some choice over who will be our friends and who will just be a person to whom we’re polite. It’s true for adults, too. 

Sometimes the kids with big differences also have a mom with big differences. Apple = tree. And as much as the kids are going, “boy, that Jake sure is annoying,” the moms are going, “so is Jake’s mom.” 

I don’t think anyone is obligated to try to be friends with someone they find annoying, whether they are kids or adults. It’s sad but it’s reality. 

I don’t know.  I think we all have an obligation to try to build friendships - as we are able

If there’s that one quirky person at church and everyone makes an effort to chat and be friends with them, they get emotionally supported.  If everyone opts out and only one person cares for about them that person can get burned out.  

So I guess I’m saying - you don’t put your own mental and emotional and physical health on the line but if everyone makes a little bit of effort no one needs to get to that point.  But what I see more frequently happen is one or two more compassionate people make an effort while everyone else stands off and watches them fall flat and then says “see that persons just crazy - I knew better than to get involved”. Plus the quirky people often have a whole lot to offer that society is missing out on.

I do hear you on the mums though.  I have mum friends with Asd kids who keep close tabs on them, and constantly monitor and make sure their issues don’t impact negatively on the other kids.  And others that seem to get to your house and just check out.  The latter ones, it is hard to keep inviting back because it’s hard to see your own kids get hit or have their stuff broken and the parent doesn’t make much effort to try stop it.  They are probably just completely overwhelmed and exhausted but there’s still only so much of yourself you can give before you end up overwhelmed and exhausted yourself. 

[Rosie_0801]

35 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

That said, no, I don't agree that ASD is largely a sensory issue. there is overlap, but no. All my kids have sensory issues, as do I. Only one has ASD. The difference is social, not sensory.

 

Social IS sensory to me.

[Rosie_0801]

34 minutes ago, Quill said:

I meant no harm.

I am wondering about adults who frequently irritate other people with their clueless behavior. Are they a narcissist? Or do they genuinely just not understand how they are affecting other people?

 

Sometimes they are just your ordinary, neurotypical who lacks a bit of imagination/ emotional IQ.
I knew you didn't mean any harm by comparing me to a predator. You're just processing. Would you like me to start an "Ask an Autistic Person" thread so you can ask why we do the weird stuff we do? 

[Rosie_0801]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

To me, the ability to edit your speech without significant outside scaffolding assistance would tend to indicate that you don’t have ASD.  The willingness and interest in changing the way you talk depending on your audience indicates that you don’t have NPD, and the ability to figure out what audience probably understands “ostentatious” and just thinks it a normal word, not an ostentatious word, also indicates to me that you have neither NPD nor ASD.  

 

Um...
I definitely won't armchair diagnose Quill with NPD either, but I'm afraid your arguments against Quill being autistic are pretty good arguments for her being high functioning autistic.   🤣

No offence, Quill!

 

[Ausmumof3]

I think there’s possibly two slightly different questions here.

one is are Asd and npd related to which the answer is a definite no.

the other is, is it possible that some people may have assumed their relatives have npd when in fact they have undiagnosed Asd.  

The answer to that is a whole lot more complicated depending on how much the person in question knows about either disorder and how well they are able to get perspective on the relatives behaviour (being either too close or too far makes it hard to read behaviours correctly I think)

two other questions that come up as a result of the discussion or - can npd and Asd coexist?  I think probably not because a hallmark of npd is manipulation.  Can people with ASD be selfish jerks?  Sure.  Just like NT people can be selfish jerks.

and then lastly can the impact of living with someone with undiagnosed Asd be similar to the impact of Npd.  To that I’m not sure as I have no experience.  

[Murphy101]

9 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Social IS sensory to me.

 

I think it is to everyone.  If anyone can describe a social situation that isn't an assault on the senses, I'd be curious to learn of it.  My worst kid seems to handle social situations great - bc they mostly are still and keep their mouth shut, then go home and sleep for 12 hours. Socially no one sees the fall out, so socially no one sees he is on the spectrum.  But he is my worst one.  Give me my kid who gets the jitters, mouths off, and such - I can guide him through coping mechanisms for that and because he can eventually be guided to see the negative fallout of his behavior, he is usually eager to learn to manage it, exhausting though it is. This one though, he suffers the most bc it's extremely hard to convince him he even needs to have coping mechanisms.  

And then there's the moms who say I am too involved with my kids and they obviously don't need it bc they are so great.  Um.  They have no |€!~*{?|£ idea what I do every day for years to get to that point.

[Pen]

40 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Who thinks "cure" seems a reasonable word to use? The person with the autism or their adults? Interventions can make a person higher functioning. All higher functioning means is better at passing/ less irritating to NT people. It doesn't mean their brain has been retrained to be NT and they've lost their memories of their different perspectives.

I'm "uncuring" because I'm so damned tired.

 

In one for sure, and maybe two cases I can think of, everyone involved.  The child, parents, people who knew them...    They, some of them, worried, I think, that there might be relapse at some point. That it could be temporary, since it’s largely symptom based, not like a cancer perhaps where blood tests and scans can show clear, NED.  Though even with cancer and all tests showing clear, relapse can be a big worry.  

 

ETA: correction: seems “healed” not cured was preferred word

Edited April 14, 2019 by Pen

[Rosie_0801]

8 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I think it is to everyone.  If anyone can describe a social situation that isn't an assault on the senses, I'd be curious to learn of it.

 

It seems to me that Society is pretty nasty to pretty much everyone. I sometimes wonder if "high functioning" Autism is just a low tolerance to being treated like crap. On the other hand, thanks to all that trauma, I can "tolerate" an enormous amount of crap. It's like scar tissue. 

I'm getting to think Society will one day be thanking Autistic people for needing all this "awareness" and "tolerance" and accomodation, so It will be able to give Itself permission to give all that stuff to the poor Neurotypicals who would be a hell of a lot more comfortable that way too, but haven't the justification for demanding it. Society is a slow learner, so I'll probably be long dead. I just want you all to know I'm calling it. 😛

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

In one for sure, and maybe two cases I can think of, everyone involved.  The child, parents, people who knew them...    They, some of them, worried, I think, that there might be relapse at some point. That it could be temporary, since it’s largely symptom based, not like a cancer perhaps where blood tests and scans can show clear, NED.  Though even with cancer and all tests showing clear, relapse can be a big worry.  

 

Good luck to them. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Um...
I definitely won't armchair diagnose Quill with NPD either, but I'm afraid your arguments against Quill being autistic are pretty good arguments for her being high functioning autistic.   🤣

No offence, Quill!

 

Are you being serious? I’m genuinely asking. 

Is the ability to modify like that an indication of HFA? 

 

[Ausmumof3]

14 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I think it is to everyone.  If anyone can describe a social situation that isn't an assault on the senses, I'd be curious to learn of it.  My worst kid seems to handle social situations great - bc they mostly are still and keep their mouth shut, then go home and sleep for 12 hours. Socially no one sees the fall out, so socially no one sees he is on the spectrum.  But he is my worst one.  Give me my kid who gets the jitters, mouths off, and such - I can guide him through coping mechanisms for that and because he can eventually be guided to see the negative fallout of his behavior, he is usually eager to learn to manage it, exhausting though it is. This one though, he suffers the most bc it's extremely hard to convince him he even needs to have coping mechanisms.  

And then there's the moms who say I am too involved with my kids and they obviously don't need it bc they are so great.  Um.  They have no |€!~*{?|£ idea what I do every day for years to get to that point.

I dunno.  I know people who thrive on noisy stimulating social scenarios.  If they walk into a party that’s quiet and slow paced they will start trying to liven things up.

and all the introverts groan and go look for a corner!

[Rosie_0801]

7 minutes ago, Quill said:

Are you being serious? I’m genuinely asking. 

Is the ability to modify like that an indication of HFA? 

 

Lol. I am not armchair diagnosing you, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were. (That's because I'm not very easily surprised, not any comment about *you.*)  

But yeah, of course. How do you suppose we get classed as high functioning? We've been hanging on this forum together for what, 13 years? Have I really ever given you the impression that I'm Ms Stone-Cold Stupid?

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

Are you being serious? I’m genuinely asking. 

Is the ability to modify like that an indication of HFA? 

 

I’m not an expert but I don’t think the ability to modify is an indicator.  I think possibly the need to do it in a conscious way may possibly be.  I reckon most nt people do this stuff instinctively without even thinking about it.  

Theres a reason why it’s called a spectrum though.

[Ausmumof3]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Lol. I am not armchair diagnosing you, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were, but yeah, of course. How do you suppose we get classed as high functioning? We've been hanging on this forum together for what, 13 years? Have I really ever given you the impression that I'm Ms Stone-Cold Stupid?

I think by definition anyone hanging around on an Internet forum long term is probably closer to the spectrum.  It’s the perfect venue for intellectual exchange of ideas without the sensoriness of normal social occasions!

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I’m not an expert but I don’t think the ability to modify is an indicator.  I think possibly the need to do it in a conscious way may possibly be.  I reckon most nt people do this stuff instinctively without even thinking about it.  

Theres a reason why it’s called a spectrum though.

 

If you are NT, those modifications are called being a person whose mamma taught them manners. If you are autistic, it's called mimicking and masking. Which, if you think about it, is a deplorable lack of credit to our mammas. (See Murphy's posts.)

[Pen]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think by definition anyone hanging around on an Internet forum long term is probably closer to the spectrum.  It’s the perfect venue for intellectual exchange of ideas without the sensoriness of normal social occasions!

 

Could be!

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I meant no harm.

I am wondering about adults who frequently irritate other people with their clueless behavior. Are they a narcissist? Or do they genuinely just not understand how they are affecting other people? I’m absolutely certain it can be hard to tell with some people. Maybe someone who worked with Garga’s dad used to be like, “Ugh! That Mr. Garga! He thinks everyone in the world should hang on his every word about his dang coin collection! He’s such a show-off with his know-it-all blathering!” I’m just wondering how many more people this sort of thing might be true of. 

I think about myself...I did not know, for example, that I had an unusually well-developed vocabulary until I was in my twenties. Several people directly told me they didn’t like my “big words” and high-and-mighty way of talking. I was like...what?! I’m not trying to talk posh or over-arch anyone. I’m just speaking in a way that I thought was normal. I didn’t know people didn’t know what “ostentatious” meant until a dinner companion said, “You do that all the time. I have no idea what you just said!” I started to edit my speech. I still do this a lot unless I have high confidence the person I’m talking to can handle “big words.” 

You may be misunderstanding narcissism, when it is used for a mental health issue versus just kind of self centered. ASD can appear as self centered, as can ADHD. But NPD is different...it's USING other people, purposely, and manipulating their emotions. Often not even really to their own benefit, just to DO it. 

35 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I

I do hear you on the mums though.  I have mum friends with Asd kids who keep close tabs on them, and constantly monitor and make sure their issues don’t impact negatively on the other kids.  And others that seem to get to your house and just check out.  The latter ones, it is hard to keep inviting back because it’s hard to see your own kids get hit or have their stuff broken and the parent doesn’t make much effort to try stop it.  They are probably just completely overwhelmed and exhausted but there’s still only so much of yourself you can give before you end up overwhelmed and exhausted yourself. 

True, my ASD kid did have friends, but I think it was largely because I was that hovering mom, making sure to keep things from getting out of control. 

34 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Social IS sensory to me.

Yes and no. Being in a social setting can and often is sensory overload. But I meant more the ability to pick up on social cues, to understand the norms/culture/etc. My usual example is that my son was 11 yrd old and I realized he didn't know how to knock on a door. Like, he would bang weirdly, or if I yelled that he was being obnoxious and to do it "right" he'd then tap softly, in a weird way. He didn't just knock like pretty much everyone else in our society. Suddenly I realized he doesn't know how!!!! He'd lived 11 years and never just picked that up from watching others the way NT people do. He lacks the mirror neurons or something, to pick it up via immersion and instead had to be specifically and explicitly taught those things. He had to be taught how to "act grateful" and why other behaviors appeared rude or disinterested or whatever. He just never picked up on those things. To me that isn't sensory, that's mirror neurons or something. 

 

17 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

.  

And then there's the moms who say I am too involved with my kids and they obviously don't need it bc they are so great.  Um.  They have no |€!~*{?|£ idea what I do every day for years to get to that point.

Amen. 

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think by definition anyone hanging around on an Internet forum long term is probably closer to the spectrum.  It’s the perfect venue for intellectual exchange of ideas without the sensoriness of normal social occasions!

 

Yeah. You lot don't mind I'm sitting here in my pj's, do you?

[Pawz4me]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

Are you being serious? I’m genuinely asking. 

Is the ability to modify like that an indication of HFA? 

 

Yes. But people with HFA understand intellectually the need to modify.They don't understand it intuitively.

 

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think by definition anyone hanging around on an Internet forum long term is probably closer to the spectrum.  It’s the perfect venue for intellectual exchange of ideas without the sensoriness of normal social occasions!

I've long thought that many people on this forum exhibit traits of autism. Certainly a higher number than one would expect given the incidence of autism in the general population. But I've also wondered if part of my perception of that is due to all the communication being written. The impression might be totally different in person.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes and no. Being in a social setting can and often is sensory overload. But I meant more the ability to pick up on social cues, to understand the norms/culture/etc. My usual example is that my son was 11 yrd old and I realized he didn't know how to knock on a door. Like, he would bang weirdly, or if I yelled that he was being obnoxious and to do it "right" he'd then tap softly, in a weird way. He didn't just knock like pretty much everyone else in our society. Suddenly I realized he doesn't know how!!!! He'd lived 11 years and never just picked that up from watching others the way NT people do. He lacks the mirror neurons or something, to pick it up via immersion and instead had to be specifically and explicitly taught those things. He had to be taught how to "act grateful" and why other behaviors appeared rude or disinterested or whatever. He just never picked up on those things. To me that isn't sensory, that's mirror neurons or something. 

 

Yeah, I know what you mean, but I'm not talking about that kind of sensory overload. I'm talking about the sense I have to use, which if I have to use too much of, will cause sensory overload. Like a Deaf person might be able to lip-read reasonably well, but it's a hell of a lot of hard work and they'll go home and sleep it off (or veg in front of a video game or whatever.) I think it is considered an Aspie chick thing, rather than a guy thing, though I have seen a guy do it too, so I think it may not be so much about gender as "they" think. It's like having to concentrate really hard on using intuition, but it's really an attention to detail forged through trauma.

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

You may be misunderstanding narcissism, when it is used for a mental health issue versus just kind of self centered. ASD can appear as self centered, as can ADHD. But NPD is different...it's USING other people, purposely, and manipulating their emotions. Often not even really to their own benefit, just to DO it. 

True, my ASD kid did have friends, but I think it was largely because I was that hovering mom, making sure to keep things from getting out of control. 

Yes and no. Being in a social setting can and often is sensory overload. But I meant more the ability to pick up on social cues, to understand the norms/culture/etc. My usual example is that my son was 11 yrd old and I realized he didn't know how to knock on a door. Like, he would bang weirdly, or if I yelled that he was being obnoxious and to do it "right" he'd then tap softly, in a weird way. He didn't just knock like pretty much everyone else in our society. Suddenly I realized he doesn't know how!!!! He'd lived 11 years and never just picked that up from watching others the way NT people do. He lacks the mirror neurons or something, to pick it up via immersion and instead had to be specifically and explicitly taught those things. He had to be taught how to "act grateful" and why other behaviors appeared rude or disinterested or whatever. He just never picked up on those things. To me that isn't sensory, that's mirror neurons or something. 

 

Amen. 

Although the knocking thing could be sensory.  If he’s not getting the correct signals as to how loud the sound is or how hard to knock to produce that sound.  My kid that is not Asd but has sensory stuff tends to either slam or not fully close doors.  And she has always hugged overly hard.  I found it interesting when we did the Ellen McHenry brain stuff that there was one section of the brain the related specifically to all the stuff she struggles with.  I think it was the parietal lobe (?).  She also tends to overreact to minor pain and under react to stuff that should really hurt.

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes. But people with HFA understand intellectually the need to modify.They don't understand it intuitively.

 

What does that mean? It's funny you should say that when I've just finished using the word "intuitive" in a post to Katie.

[Ausmumof3]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Yeah. You lot don't mind I'm sitting here in my pj's, do you?

Lol... as long as they’re the comfy type!

[ktgrok]

10 minutes ago, Quill said:

Are you being serious? I’m genuinely asking. 

Is the ability to modify like that an indication of HFA? 

 

I think it COULD be...it may just be across the border from it. I don't think I'm HFA, I don't THINK my late ex was HFA...although possible. But definitely our son is. I'm probably just across the border between HFA and NT. I have several of the traits but I don't think they are to the extent I'd need a diagnosis or trouble with life. Although..hoenstly, I may just be better at masking and it may be the difference between girls and boys. Not sure. Pretty sure my dad is HFA. 

(the traits I see in myself are things like perseverations. I can spend days/weeks obsessing about something, researching it at all hours of the night, dreaming about it, etc. Often to no real purpose. Like, I know SO much about keeping backyard chickens but have never owned a chicken nor do I particularly plan to. But I know breeds, diseases, feeding, even how to butcher them. Because I had a chicken "phase". Also a cloth diaper phase where I literally couldn't sleep for obsessing/reading/etc. I also have social anxiety, etc but I'm very good in many social situations and actually was the go to person for difficult client interactions at work. Now, is that a sign I don't have HFA, or a sign that I got SO good at code switching/mimicking/etc that it made it easier for me to figure out and take on whatever personality was needed at the moment? No idea.)

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

If you are NT, those modifications are called being a person whose mamma taught them manners. If you are autistic, it's called mimicking and masking. Which, if you think about it, is a deplorable lack of credit to our mammas. (See Murphy's posts.)

Truth. I actually wonder if the lack of a coherent, accepted body of ettitquitte makes it a lot harder for people on the spectrum. It used to be you could be taught the ins and outs of polite behavior, and it was done explicitly, with a book and everything if need be. Now, it varies so much and there are not a lot of books on modern social niceties.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Yeah, I know what you mean, but I'm not talking about that kind of sensory overload. I'm talking about the sense I have to use, which if I have to use too much of, will cause sensory overload. Like a Deaf person might be able to lip-read reasonably well, but it's a hell of a lot of hard work and they'll go home and sleep it off (or veg in front of a video game or whatever.) I think it is considered an Aspie chick thing, rather than a guy thing, though I have seen a guy do it too, so I think it may not be so much about gender as "they" think. It's like having to concentrate really hard on using intuition, but it's really an attention to detail forged through trauma.

Ok, I get what you mean, and agree, I just wouldn't use the term sensory for it. But yes, it's mentally exhausting. 

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Although the knocking thing could be sensory.  If he’s not getting the correct signals as to how loud the sound is or how hard to knock to produce that sound.  My kid that is not Asd but has sensory stuff tends to either slam or not fully close doors.  And she has always hugged overly hard.  I found it interesting when we did the Ellen McHenry brain stuff that there was one section of the brain the related specifically to all the stuff she struggles with.  I think it was the parietal lobe (?).  She also tends to overreact to minor pain and under react to stuff that should really hurt.

No, it's more than that. It's not just too loud or too soft, it was just altogether not right. (and loud/soft were not an issue for him that way...my younger son though..sigh...he has no clue what "quiet" is. NONE.)

It is hard to describe, but it was just bizarre. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

I think it COULD be...it may just be across the border from it. I don't think I'm HFA, I don't THINK my late ex was HFA...although possible. But definitely our son is. I'm probably just across the border between HFA and NT. I have several of the traits but I don't think they are to the extent I'd need a diagnosis or trouble with life. Although..hoenstly, I may just be better at masking and it may be the difference between girls and boys. Not sure. Pretty sure my dad is HFA. 

(the traits I see in myself are things like perseverations. I can spend days/weeks obsessing about something, researching it at all hours of the night, dreaming about it, etc. Often to no real purpose. Like, I know SO much about keeping backyard chickens but have never owned a chicken nor do I particularly plan to. But I know breeds, diseases, feeding, even how to butcher them. Because I had a chicken "phase". Also a cloth diaper phase where I literally couldn't sleep for obsessing/reading/etc. I also have social anxiety, etc but I'm very good in many social situations and actually was the go to person for difficult client interactions at work. Now, is that a sign I don't have HFA, or a sign that I got SO good at code switching/mimicking/etc that it made it easier for me to figure out and take on whatever personality was needed at the moment? No idea.)

Truth. I actually wonder if the lack of a coherent, accepted body of ettitquitte makes it a lot harder for people on the spectrum. It used to be you could be taught the ins and outs of polite behavior, and it was done explicitly, with a book and everything if need be. Now, it varies so much and there are not a lot of books on modern social niceties.

I think that’s 100 percent true!  There was once an expected norm and once you could navigate it it was ok.  Or you could ignore it at your peril.  Now there’s so much more to process.  

Also I think sensory is more challenging.  When I was a kid we had a pretty limited range of healthy available foods to learn to eat.  Now kids with food aversion have to learn about so many different textures.

and clothes used to be made to fit the wearer.  And if someone couldn’t handle scratchy waistbands or sock seams mum or the tailor just made them slightly differently.  Now clothes are off the shelf as they are.

[ktgrok]

I think too, that just as there are people all over the IQ tables who are NT, that is true of people who are on the spectrum. And I think a lot of very very high IQ people can utilize that extra bit of IQ to mask a bit better. IF I am on the spectrum, that's probably me. Or, am I just quirky as people with high IQ often are? 

As in, I can mirror and code switch really well in business or family situations. Drove my sister nuts, as the older relatives always got along with me better because I could fake it so well and be whatever they wanted me to be. Is that a sign of ASD but smart, or smart but quirky, or super great EQ, or???

No idea. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think that’s 100 percent true!  There was once an expected norm and once you could navigate it it was ok.  Or you could ignore it at your peril.  Now there’s so much more to process.  

Also I think sensory is more challenging.  When I was a kid we had a pretty limited range of healthy available foods to learn to eat.  Now kids with food aversion have to learn about so many different textures.

and clothes used to be made to fit the wearer.  And if someone couldn’t handle scratchy waistbands or sock seams mum or the tailor just made them slightly differently.  Now clothes are off the shelf as they are.

And there were more "acceptable" jobs that might fit someone with social and sensory issues. 

Speaking of which, I just recently started taking over yard work in my family, and now get why my dad liked yard work on the weekends - no one bugs you when you are running the lawn mower! Introvert heaven if you can find hearing protection to keep out most of the noise! No one talking to me, a set job that has a beginning and an end, no wondering about vague stuff. Just "cut this, clip that" lol. Of course, that I can realize and appreciate that the lawn should look a certain way (and my son on the spectrum can't) may be a sign that I am NOT on the spectrum. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

I think too, that just as there are people all over the IQ tables who are NT, that is true of people who are on the spectrum. And I think a lot of very very high IQ people can utilize that extra bit of IQ to mask a bit better. IF I am on the spectrum, that's probably me. Or, am I just quirky as people with high IQ often are? 

As in, I can mirror and code switch really well in business or family situations. Drove my sister nuts, as the older relatives always got along with me better because I could fake it so well and be whatever they wanted me to be. Is that a sign of ASD but smart, or smart but quirky, or super great EQ, or???

No idea. 

Or an indicator that you’ve spend your whole life trying to fit in to situations that are more difficult for you so you are already good at being a chameleon

 

13 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes. But people with HFA understand intellectually the need to modify.They don't understand it intuitively.

 

I've long thought that many people on this forum exhibit traits of autism. Certainly a higher number than one would expect given the incidence of autism in the general population. But I've also wondered if part of my perception of that is due to all the communication being written. The impression might be totally different in person.

Probably there’s a correlation with homeschooling and possibly classical education as well.

[Rosie_0801]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think it COULD be...it may just be across the border from it. I don't think I'm HFA, I don't THINK my late ex was HFA...although possible. But definitely our son is. I'm probably just across the border between HFA and NT. I have several of the traits but I don't think they are to the extent I'd need a diagnosis or trouble with life. Although..hoenstly, I may just be better at masking and it may be the difference between girls and boys. Not sure. Pretty sure my dad is HFA. 

(the traits I see in myself are things like perseverations. I can spend days/weeks obsessing about something, researching it at all hours of the night, dreaming about it, etc. Often to no real purpose. Like, I know SO much about keeping backyard chickens but have never owned a chicken nor do I particularly plan to. But I know breeds, diseases, feeding, even how to butcher them. Because I had a chicken "phase". Also a cloth diaper phase where I literally couldn't sleep for obsessing/reading/etc. I also have social anxiety, etc but I'm very good in many social situations and actually was the go to person for difficult client interactions at work. Now, is that a sign I don't have HFA, or a sign that I got SO good at code switching/mimicking/etc that it made it easier for me to figure out and take on whatever personality was needed at the moment? No idea.)

 

Lol, I don't really do that obsessing thing like you're talking about and I would argue that I am very good in many social situations, the more difficult ones rather than the "normal person, easy ones" *because* I'm high functioning autistic. Usually with the tricky people, I'm the diplomat/ ambassador. With the "normal and easy" people, I might need a diplomat/ambassador to hide behind.

Truth. I actually wonder if the lack of a coherent, accepted body of ettitquitte makes it a lot harder for people on the spectrum. It used to be you could be taught the ins and outs of polite behavior, and it was done explicitly, with a book and everything if need be. Now, it varies so much and there are not a lot of books on modern social niceties.

In some ways yes. NT people really seem to like lying a lot. I can usually tell when it is required, but rarely know which lie they want to hear. It would be very handy if there were standardised lies so I didn't have to learn each individual's personal favourites. On the other hand, they are not actually more important than me, so why do I have to learn their preferred type of lying instead of them being honest, to accomodate me? Surely I am in the right on this particular social nicety! Then, if we pretend I am a mutant with three hands, anything that codified is going to bore me to the point of physically aching, and I'd be in just the same place as always: better off being somewhere else, avoiding most people.

 

[Murphy101]

15 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I dunno.  I know people who thrive on noisy stimulating social scenarios.  If they walk into a party that’s quiet and slow paced they will start trying to liven things up.

and all the introverts groan and go look for a corner!

 

That has nothing to do with whether they also are on the spectrum.  One of mine LOVES all the stimulation, he gets super excited and talkative and just super everything.  It's SUPER!!!!  It's like watching an addict delightfully OD completely unawares. If he wasn't on the spectrum, he'd be able to regulate and pick up on that, without years of my guidance.  It's exhausting for him to contain and manage that energy in a socially acceptable manner.

Again.

ASD people re like everyone else in that they have their own personality and free will.  They can be introverted or they can be extroverted, but they often still have sensory and social problems.  How they express those problems can differ greatly.

26 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

It seems to me that Society is pretty nasty to pretty much everyone. I sometimes wonder if "high functioning" Autism is just a low tolerance to being treated like crap. On the other hand, thanks to all that trauma, I can "tolerate" an enormous amount of crap. It's like scar tissue. 

I'm getting to think Society will one day be thanking Autistic people for needing all this "awareness" and "tolerance" and accomodation, so It will be able to give Itself permission to give all that stuff to the poor Neurotypicals who would be a hell of a lot more comfortable that way too, but haven't the justification for demanding it. Society is a slow learner, so I'll probably be long dead. I just want you all to know I'm calling it. 😛

 

No argument from me.  I often contemplate that God called it straight when he told Noah he couldn't find two decent people, much less a dozen or more.

[Rosie_0801]

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok, I get what you mean, and agree, I just wouldn't use the term sensory for it. But yes, it's mentally exhausting.  

 

It can go past mentally exhausting, for me, to the point of making my body ache.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think by definition anyone hanging around on an Internet forum long term is probably closer to the spectrum.  It’s the perfect venue for intellectual exchange of ideas without the sensoriness of normal social occasions!

Right?! It’s practically Heaven if you ask me! 

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

That has nothing to do with whether they also are on the spectrum.  One of mine LOVES all the stimulation, he gets super excited and talkative and just super everything.  It's SUPER!!!!  It's like watching an addict delightfully OD completely unawares. If he wasn't on the spectrum, he'd be able to regulate and pick up on that, without years of my guidance.  It's exhausting for him to contain and manage that energy in a socially acceptable manner.

Again.

ASD people re like everyone else in that they have their own personality and free will.  They can be introverted or they can be extroverted, but they often still have sensory and social problems.  How they express those problems can differ greatly.

 

No argument from me.  I often contemplate that God called it straight when he told Noah he couldn't find two decent people, much less a dozen or more.

Yeah I was just responding to the comment someone made that the sensory side of social interaction is hard on everyone.  I don’t think that’s true - I think some people thrive on it.  For others it’s exhausting.

[scholastica]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

Right?! It’s practically Heaven if you ask me! 

Oooh, do you think we can have introvert heaven and extrovert heaven...? 

 

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, scholastica said:

Oooh, do you think we can have introvert heaven and extrovert heaven...? 

 

Libraries, cats and very occasional harp playing... 

 

[Pawz4me]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

What does that mean? It's funny you should say that when I've just finished using the word "intuitive" in a post to Katie.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but here's a "for instance" that involves something other than modifying speech:

A couple of years ago we were at my MIL's. This is a lady who is very dear to us. DS has seen her for at least a couple of hours almost every week of his life. We walked in the door and I knew within ten seconds that she was worried or upset about something. I think I'm fairly NT, and my perception was probably a combo of intuition, reading body language and simply knowing someone well.

After our visit was over and we were on the way home I wondered aloud what she might have been worried or upset about. And DS was like "What? I would never in a million years have known anything was wrong." So I had to explain to him all the details I picked up on that made it clear to me she was worried--she looked a lot more haggard than usual, she seemed distracted, she wasn't as talkative/upbeat as she normally was, etc. Once I explained how to put all those things together and what they likely meant he was like "Ok, got it." And he filed it away in his brain and will use that for future reference. He can quite easily learn those things intellectually. But he'll never (I don't think) be able to intuit a person's mood, even someone he's very close to.

I hope that's what you meant??

I think I understand the sense/sensory thing you referred to. Is it like the analogy of an autistic person constantly being in a foreign land? I'm pretty sure that's how life is for DS. I don't think his is forged through trauma, but I do think he uses his working memory--and he is profoundly gifted in that area--to help him navigate through daily life. He relies on his memory to dredge up everything he's learned intellectually about how to fake NT. And even with prodigious stores of working memory to rely on, faking it still wears him out.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, scholastica said:

Oooh, do you think we can have introvert heaven and extrovert heaven...? 

 

Maybe there can be different rooms. The extroverts will have a constant party but the introverts can pop in ocassionally for a glass of wine and some brie. Then, we get to leave. 

[Pen]

51 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Um...
I definitely won't armchair diagnose Quill with NPD either, but I'm afraid your arguments against Quill being autistic are pretty good arguments for her being high functioning autistic.   🤣

No offence, Quill!

 

 

Would you then expect NT people to be born with the ability to behave correctly in whatever social situation they find themselves by ?instinct? without training or modifications?

[Rosie_0801]

10 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but here's a "for instance" that involves something other than modifying speech:

A couple of years ago we were at my MIL's. This is a lady who is very dear to us. DS has seen her for at least a couple of hours almost every week of his life. We walked in the door and I knew within ten seconds that she was worried or upset about something. I think I'm fairly NT, and my perception was probably a combo of intuition, reading body language and simply knowing someone well.

After our visit was over and we were on the way home I wondered aloud what she might have been worried or upset about. And DS was like "What? I would never in a million years have known anything was wrong." So I had to explain to him all the details I picked up on that made it clear to me she was worried--she looked a lot more haggard than usual, she seemed distracted, she wasn't as talkative/upbeat as she normally was, etc. Once I explained how to put all those things together and what they likely meant he was like "Ok, got it." And he filed it away in his brain and will use that for future reference. He can quite easily learn those things intellectually. But he'll never (I don't think) be able to intuit a person's mood, even someone he's very close to.

I hope that's what you meant??

 

You may be surprised. It's like how you teach a kid phonics, and with practice it becomes a sight word.

Quote

I

think I understand the sense/sensory thing you referred to. Is it like the analogy of an autistic person constantly being in a foreign land? I'm pretty sure that's how life is for DS. I don't think his is forged through trauma, but I do think he uses his working memory--and he is profoundly gifted in that area--to help him navigate through daily life. He relies on his memory to dredge up everything he's learned intellectually about how to fake NT. And even with prodigious stores of working memory to rely on, faking it still wears him out.

Lol, your son might be better at it if he was more traumatised. Trauma teaches urgency.
Yes, that analogy works well enough for what I meant. I don't much like the analogy though. This IS my land, no matter how unwelcome I might be in it sometimes. I read an essay last year where a woman was talking about books like the first two 'Rosie' books and 'The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night' feeling like cultural appropriation. I liked that better. I am not a foreigner, but I do belong in a different sub-culture. I wonder if I would mind less the effort I have to put in to "pass" (i.e., protect NT people from the inconvenience of me) if they also considered it socially inappropriate to lack the ability to function bi-culturally themselves.

[freesia]

15 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And there were more "acceptable" jobs that might fit someone with social and sensory issues. 

Speaking of which, I just recently started taking over yard work in my family, and now get why my dad liked yard work on the weekends - no one bugs you when you are running the lawn mower! Introvert heaven if you can find hearing protection to keep out most of the noise! No one talking to me, a set job that has a beginning and an end, no wondering about vague stuff. Just "cut this, clip that" lol. Of course, that I can realize and appreciate that the lawn should look a certain way (and my son on the spectrum can't) may be a sign that I am NOT on the spectrum. 

Yes! I discovered this when I had two little ones ( for various reasons we haven’t had to mow in the last places we’ve lived.). I loved mowing!  No one could come near me and I couldn’t even hear if anyone cried. It was bliss.(Swimming Laps works the same way.)

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Would you then expect NT people to be born with the ability to behave correctly in whatever social situation they find themselves by ?instinct? without training or modifications?

 

That would be a funny thing to expect, wouldn't it, with how everyone goes on about "socialisation."

[Ausmumof3]

12 minutes ago, Quill said:

Maybe there can be different rooms. The extroverts will have a constant party but the introverts can pop in ocassionally for a glass of wine and some brie. Then, we get to leave. 

And introvert hell is just being placed in the  wrong room!

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

What I would love is for the labels to be thrown away and for schools to be set up with the premise that everyone is bleeping screwed up in some way or another and will need some kind of help to navigate academics and society.

Instead we have this donkey butt backwards system of presuming everyone is some mythological normal and the only way anyone gets any help of any kind is if they are far enough off to qualify for a label.  Then they get to add the label to crap they need help with.

Yes!!!! I have been reading along and I have so much to say about all of this, but THIS is what I wish too.  

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

For sure.

What you said up above about "sorry, I can't eat with you while you do x", then take your plate and leave is pretty much what the kids here do if they don't take on a caregiver role.  "I'd love to play blocks with you, maybe later when you feel up to it" is the type of thing I"ve heard.  By middle school its " s/he's having a rough day, leave her/him alone", then convo later if the upset person wants it.  They just don't move in and attack in the moment of vulnerability.

See that's amazing that the kids have had modeling or been taught to interact this way with each other. 

 

2 hours ago, Garga said:

His parents beat him mercilessly for his quirky ways.  It was absolute abuse.  They showed him little love and a lot of derision.  He was not raised by a woman not allowed to confront him.  His mother was downright mean to her kids.  (I have written about the one time I met her and how cold she was to me.)

If he is seriously confronted, (like if someone gets mad) he gets extremely sad.  There isn't a single bullying bone in his body.  If you saw him and confronted him, you would feel like you'd just kicked a puppy.  A puppy who has no idea why you're kicking him and doesn't learn from it, other than to be scared of you.

What a horrible situation! Again, the point of ABA, no matter when you start, is to help him piece together cause effect. ASD does not mean he does not have a choice. It means he isn't making the connections to realize what his choice is and to know how to choose better. You would literally start at the beginning with him, looking for the function of the behavior and helping him get that function a more appropriate, pro-social way.                                             Stop That Seemingly Senseless Behavior!: FBA-based Interventions for People with Autism (Topics in Autism)                                       Here's the book that would help you do this. The behavior has a function, so find the function and help him make better choices. There are so many respectful ways to do this. If he wants to be funny (attention seeking), you give him joke books and help him share them. You could ignore the "see food" if it's for attention seeking and immediately ask for his jokes or the replacement behavior you're teaching. If he's truly not malicious or gaining power by his actions, you might be able to use some positive techniques like this. If it would bring peace, it might be worth bringing in a behaviorist, if you could find the right one. Ours is a licensed social worker, so it would just be like oh a social worker came to the house. They do that when you have illnesses, social workers appear.

Fwiw has anyone ever wondered if he had some ID or trauma? Now that would be very hard to resolve, but he could have layers like that. Trauma creates a layer of disconnect and dissociation that will disconnect him from people, sigh. Just as an aside, my father's family was that way, very rough, and it had differing effects on each child. I think it's that line of undiagnosed problems showing up different ways in each generation. There are some stats on bipolar parents of ASD kids and there's a strong correlation. 

2 hours ago, Garga said:

My dad might not have ASD, but he has something.

Fwiw, he clearly has something going on, but it might be layers. If he was abused, he may have trauma, possibly brain damage. That's horrible to say, but it happens. He's blessed to have a loving marriage relationship. 

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I don’t think that’s always true though.  We have some people in our life with autism and I really encourage my kids to be kind, be inclusive.  But I get pushback from my kids (even though they have their own quirks).  It only takes a couple of experiences when a kid breaking something of theirs or hurting them and they become reluctant to put themselves on the line again.  

I really appreciate you expressing that and it's a very fair point. In one case I know it was the mother, because the boy was asking for the playdate and the mom wouldn't schedule. But it's really fair to ask if it has been the kids in other situations, definitely.

2 hours ago, Garga said:

 

Yes, I'm regretting that I started typing on this thread.  How do I boil down a man's entire lifetime into a couple of paragraphs without confusing everyone or misrepresenting him?  In my first post I accidentally left a lot out because someone posted that maybe his mama should have smacked him when he was a kid (not knowing that he was very much smacked around as a kid for his behavior) and I didn't express how he's gentle and tries to connect to people, but fails over and over.  Smacking or angry confrontation won't solve what's going on with him.  I didn't express properly that the bad behavior continued because he seems incapable of reading facial expressions (for one example), and not because he was on a power trip.  

So, I do think there are some definition issues and scope issues.  

 

Fwiw I've had too many run-ins with men who are in that iffy spectrumy land who are on the malicious side. That's where I was coming from. I so agree with you that your dad needs the totally opposite treatment. I wasn't meaning to make you feel bad about your dad. My dad is sort of odd in his own ways too. He was so violent when we were growing up, but if you knew him now he wouldn't hurt a fly (on meds). It's not possible to summarize anyone in a sentence or a paragraph, and I think you're right to look for the intentions underneath the outside. 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think it COULD be...it may just be across the border from it. I don't think I'm HFA, I don't THINK my late ex was HFA...although possible. But definitely our son is. I'm probably just across the border between HFA and NT. I have several of the traits but I don't think they are to the extent I'd need a diagnosis or trouble with life. Although..hoenstly, I may just be better at masking and it may be the difference between girls and boys. Not sure. Pretty sure my dad is HFA. 

(the traits I see in myself are things like perseverations. I can spend days/weeks obsessing about something, researching it at all hours of the night, dreaming about it, etc. Often to no real purpose. Like, I know SO much about keeping backyard chickens but have never owned a chicken nor do I particularly plan to. But I know breeds, diseases, feeding, even how to butcher them. Because I had a chicken "phase". Also a cloth diaper phase where I literally couldn't sleep for obsessing/reading/etc. I also have social anxiety, etc but I'm very good in many social situations and actually was the go to person for difficult client interactions at work. Now, is that a sign I don't have HFA, or a sign that I got SO good at code switching/mimicking/etc that it made it easier for me to figure out and take on whatever personality was needed at the moment? No idea.)

Truth. I actually wonder if the lack of a coherent, accepted body of ettitquitte makes it a lot harder for people on the spectrum. It used to be you could be taught the ins and outs of polite behavior, and it was done explicitly, with a book and everything if need be. Now, it varies so much and there are not a lot of books on modern social niceties.

Relate. 

Quote

You may be misunderstanding narcissism, when it is used for a mental health issue versus just kind of self centered. ASD can appear as self centered, as can ADHD. But NPD is different...it's USING other people, purposely, and manipulating their emotions. Often not even really to their own benefit, just to DO it

But I was thinking isn’t it possible to misunderstand the nature of someone’s butt-headedness? 

There was this one time when my BIL said something at a holiday dinner which he had been implored moments before not to mention. (It was about a not-present relative’s sexual orientation.) So was he being his often-obtuse self? Or is he just the biggest dick you ever met? I don’t really know, but I think there’s something not-right with him that he would do that. I don’t think he’s just mean, although that is one possibility. I think he’s dense. I think he thought he was being funny. Only it was as far from funny as one can get and he upset the person so much, they left. Even after seeing he caused upset, he did not grow sheepish or embarassed. He shrugged as if, “meh. I thought it was funny. Guess nobody else thinks so.” 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Libraries, cats and very occasional harp playing... 

 

 

I could do with or without cats, but can’t imagine heaven without dogs.  🙂 

Unlimited audiobooks, small gatherings of close friends, happy family groups, dogs, outdoors.  

No harps or gongs needed. Though occasionally music, and more often movies would be good.  

[Scarlett]

I read most of the thread.  It seems to me there have always been quirky people.....and those people get support they need and they thrive or they don’t and they flounder.  

@Garga your post was AMAZING for all its details.  Wow.  Just wow.  I  think many of us have known someone like your father and many times have not dealt well with them.  Thank you so much for sharing that.  

We have close friends who have a mid 20s son on the spectrum.  I would definitely say high functioning. He holds down a good drafting job.  But he still lives with his parents and I suspect he might always. His diagnosis allowed his father to understand him in way that he didn’t before.  The dad feels bad for how he treated his son in younger years.. now life is better.  Everyone knows this young man needs clear instructions and that he does t read social cues.  

My own son sometimes makes me wonder that he might be on the spectrum. He is smart but quirky.  Often socially awkward.  I have no intention of pushing for a diagnosis....I do help him work on his social skills.  

So I think we should treat each person as a human being and when they need more intervention and help, get it for them.  

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It seems to me that Society is pretty nasty to pretty much everyone. I sometimes wonder if "high functioning" Autism is just a low tolerance to being treated like crap. On the other hand, thanks to all that trauma, I can "tolerate" an enormous amount of crap. It's like scar tissue. 

I'm getting to think Society will one day be thanking Autistic people for needing all this "awareness" and "tolerance" and accomodation, so It will be able to give Itself permission to give all that stuff to the poor Neurotypicals who would be a hell of a lot more comfortable that way too, but haven't the justification for demanding it. Society is a slow learner, so I'll probably be long dead. I just want you all to know I'm calling it. 😛

Well said. 

[Carrie12345]

(I’ve only read the first page so far.)

A diagnosis is not a pass.  So, when my ASD kid does do something crappy, which is generally out of character for him, but it does happen (!) his dx may or may not be the reason/cause, but we do not view it as an *excuse. We’ve been working intently on behaviors since he was 4, in some ways like we’ve done with all our 4 year olds, and in some ways more heavily influenced by the understanding of his brain make up.  Had we only worked from the angle of a “typical” 4 (or 10, or 17) year old, he probably wouldn’t be where he is today.

I’m very ADD, dx’ed at 30.  It heavily influenced some crappy choices when I was younger, but I didn’t have many tools to work with.  About a dozen years later, I still mess up sometimes. Maybe due to ADD, maybe due to being human. Maybe because I didn’t utilize my tools. Regardless, I don’t get a pass. If my mistake screws someone else up, it screws someone else up.  There is no, “Oh, well. I have ADD. Move on.” My actions matter, diagnosis or no diagnosis.  But my actions tend to be much more positive when I’m using the tools my dx has given me.