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Calming Tea

What do you think about Public Speaking as first CC DE class?

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My dd and I will be looking for a Friday-only class for her to DE next semester.  She has some issues with spelling and focus and met with the Accessibility coordinator and he was great.  She now has an IEP with the college, and access to several accommodations and several technological devices as well as a scribe if she wants.

Due to her co-op schedule, it would be great if she could attend a Friday-only class, and so far the only one we've seen that seems like a good fit is Public Speaking.  I think this would be a great first class. My daughter is a good writer, and has lots of opinions.  She doesn't like or enjoy speaking in front of others, but does OK when she needs to - this seems like it would be a nice challenge for her maturity wise without being overkill...

(we had her signed up for astronomy as her first cc class but had to drop it due to scheduling issues and a concussion, so this is the second time around with the same question)

thoughts?

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As long as both you and DD are good with the likelihood of adult topics or potentially explicit personal experiences that some of the fellow students may present, that could work.

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I agree with Lori.  My first child to go thru the DE did speech online class.  Now I am about to enroll my second child though DE classes and Speech will be his first class as well.

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10 hours ago, Bear2K said:

I agree with Lori.  My first child to go thru the DE did speech online class.  Now I am about to enroll my second child though DE classes and Speech will be his first class as well.

 

Just out of curiosity, what does a speech class online look like? It seems like a hard class to cover online.

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1 hour ago, Melissa B said:

 

Just out of curiosity, what does a speech class online look like? It seems like a hard class to cover online.

 

With our state's online speech class,  it says this: During the Public Speaking portion of the course, students will prepare an informative speech and a persuasive speech following the assignment criteria listed in Modules 3 and 4. The two speeches must be delivered in front of approved audiences, videotaped, and submitted to the instructor as an Unlisted video on YouTube. Both speeches must be completed in order to pass the course. 

If you happen to be interested in the rest of the syllabus, https://tnecampus.org/courses/2557/syllabus

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Based on all of your posts about your dd this past yr, I would not have her DE next yr.  DE grades are permanent. She has struggled with so many different courses this yr that I would use next yr as an opportunity for her to work through her new diagnoses and understand how accommodations might help her succeed without throwing her into a DE course.

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Hi everyone, 

Thanks for your thoughts!

8, unfortunately we don’t have anywhere else that she can really practice using official accommodations. (Turning in your blue slip, scheduling your proctored exams and using your school-issues tape recorder etc) All the co-op teaches will sign an accommodations forms but they already structure the class intentionally for those with LD’s - and all exams and quizzes are done at home online or turned in, so as not to use up valuable class time taking them. So really she’s already at the point where if she’s going to actually use an official accommodation it’ll be at college. At home, She’s always used accommodations that I’ve provided for her since I always knew she had issues. (Grammerly, extra time, speaking out loud, etc) ....

This cc is much smaller and caters to a different type of people than the cc my son went to. It’s full of people needing all kinds of help from free busing to free food to the myriad of ESL and remedial classes. I think the teachers there really have a heart to help and we know other kids that have gone there needing accommodations a and done very well. It’s not like doing DE at a big university. The campus is tiny and class sizes are also tiny, the average non nursing major class has about 7-10 students. ....

I could wait another semester or until senior year but not sure what would happen between now and then that would change anything except that she’s excited now after meeting with the accessibilities coordinator and meeting the entire office she feels like she can do it. keep in mind she has gifted IQ and is well learned and well read so to be honest she can think and talk circles around most of the kids and adults at this cc without even trying. It’s only spelling that she has issues with and Science -....idk 

i just want her to succeed, and I don’t want to push her into something she’s not ready for ....but I also don’t want to not give her the practice she needs in advocating for herself. She has the drive and the IQ and the education to succeed. Now she has the accommodations. 

 

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One thing we really learned this year is 

1. She does not to well with most online classes. She did succeed and get an A in one Science class but the rest we have dropped and ended up looking for something else.

2. That’s not to say she doesn’t do well with online interfaces. She used Google classroom for one of her co-op classes and does great, and she used and does very well woth Monarch Online. We switched science halfway through but that was because it was poorly written, so bad that even my son could barely make our what it was saying and he loves Science. 

Although I post on here about the struggles here are the achievements:

1. She taught herself an entire year of Geometry and is in the home stretch with an A average. 

2. She literally has 110 average in her Honors literature class. I watch over all of the assignment s and it’s a challenging course. 

3. She is almost finished her second year of ASL and has kwpt up with all of her work even though it’s difficult. 

4. For history I’ve been assigning DBQs and reports that are graded by her English teacher and she is doing very well. Her DBQs could use more depth but I’m a hard grader 🙂.  

5. She is 100% self motivated. She uses grammerly for all of her work. She makes 50-60 flash cards every week using Quizlet and she turns in all of her co op work on time and stays on track woth self motivation. I do not push, control, coerce, schedule or in any way control how she schedules her time and she functions in this way like a mature young adult. 

6. She took a lab class outside the house and was praised for being one of the most self motivated students. She hates science but she was mature and thoughtful about her work and her lab partner was terribly sad to part ways when it was over.

We switched up by dropping all the WTM classes In September and we switched that monarch science halfway through but her work ethic and ability seem fine. It’s more that I seem to not have known what would be a good course that fit and what wouldn’t. 

Obviously I don’t want to make the same mistake again with the DE course .... so my question is, what am I looking for to know she’s ready and it’s a good idea? 

With my son you could throw him into just about anything and he’s fine, so I haven’t really leaned how to figure out anything except by trial and error woth her. 

Sorry for typos. On my tiny phone 🙂 

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ASL sounds like it would be a great first class. My daughter's ASL classes always met twice per week (better than the 4-5 times per week most foreign language classes meet.) I wouldn't want to start with a speech class or a three hour block (missing one class is a grade killer) for a first college class. There is a good deal of stress in the days before each speech. And the topics tend to be very mature. If the first speech didn't go well, I would want to be sure my child was mature enough not to take it to heart and to be prepared to get up there again without undo stress. My girls tend to sign up for classes like that with a friend for support. 🙂

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13 hours ago, cbollin said:

 

With our state's online speech class,  it says this: During the Public Speaking portion of the course, students will prepare an informative speech and a persuasive speech following the assignment criteria listed in Modules 3 and 4. The two speeches must be delivered in front of approved audiences, videotaped, and submitted to the instructor as an Unlisted video on YouTube. Both speeches must be completed in order to pass the course. 

If you happen to be interested in the rest of the syllabus, https://tnecampus.org/courses/2557/syllabus

Thanks, that is so interesting. I love that they can provide an option for speech for students that go to school online.

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Mine both went through the local community college, and I got to know the main speech professor a little bit through being in an online teaching class with her.

My older one did face-to-face. It was five speeches of different types. She required that they turn their topics for approval ahead of time and did have a list of topics that wouldn't fly that I thought was tasteful.

My younger did it with the same professor online, but the speeches were recorded in Blackboard with the grade being partially from peer review. She had two that she had to give before at least two people that were not family members with critique, so we had two friends over.  Then she gave them on Blackboard as well.  

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3 hours ago, Melissa B said:

ASL sounds like it would be a great first class. My daughter's ASL classes always met twice per week (better than the 4-5 times per week most foreign language classes meet.) I wouldn't want to start with a speech class or a three hour block (missing one class is a grade killer) for a first college class. There is a good deal of stress in the days before each speech. And the topics tend to be very mature. If the first speech didn't go well, I would want to be sure my child was mature enough not to take it to heart and to be prepared to get up there again without undo stress. My girls tend to sign up for classes like that with a friend for support. 🙂

 

hmm, good point about the three hour block and the stress leading up to it...

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OK, so I am really not wanting to chuck everyone's advice out the window, so trying to think about how to help my dd move onto the next step while not doing something unwise.

Here are the problems with CC DE:

1.  Grades are permanent 2.  Friday-only classes are 3 or 4 hours, missing one means immediately setting up for a struggle and also hard to focus that long 3.  Regular classes would interfere with her co-op which currently has excellent teachers for the classes she is taking as well as a nice group of kids, dd will be only child next year (she's absolutely dreading her big brother leaving) *and* is still missing her horse and horse hobby so very important not to remove her from a healthy social situation 4.  the concern about stress/adult topics.  

SO how about this idea:

Landmark college online specializes in helping students who learn differently, to take their first college course online.  They are provided with a liaison who checks in with them DAILY who can not only help with communication issues but technical problems, as well as meetings to make sure they're properly organizing and planning their work.  

https://www.landmark.edu/academics/online-programs/high-school-online-dual-enrollment-program

I think this would perhaps work for our situation...

Edited by Calming Tea
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I guess I am at a loss as to why you think she needs to take a college class next yr.  Isnt she just a rising jr?  Goodness, my incredibly strong students have not DE until jr yr or not at all. DE is not just another class.  The class will follow her forever.

I don't really understand your logic for wanting her to use her accommodations.  You have posted how many classes you all have bailed on, modified, not finished this yr.  (Not finishing TT math is a big warning sign to me that your dd is not up to keeping up the pace with a college class.)  Boredom, not liking the style, not doing well with the teacher's instruction---there is no escaping from it in a DE class.  

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I should have asked this question on the Special Needs board.  I think perhaps you're not getting the fact that people with LDs and ADHD will rarely have a smooth sailing school year, and waiting won't change that.  Add to the fact that my dd has had a major life event this year causing major grief, and yes, there were tough moments.  Someone struggling doesn't mean you don't continue on with momentum or that they're inherently broken because they are bored.  They have to push through on some things and on some things they don't - maybe I shouldn't ask for help on here if it gives the impression that my dd doesn't ever finish what she starts or that she is unable to push through boredom.  My dd has been extremely self motivated and self taught this year, and continued on through a major loss and grief!  She should be applauded, not making it sound like she "bails on" things - The WTM classes, we quit during the trial period for Goodness sake.  They have a trial period for a reason.   So she only stopped ONE COURSE which was Biology and was for a very good reason.  

If she doesn't USE accommodations now, she won't GET them in a four year university.  They will say, "Can I see your IEP form your high school" and we will say "we homeschooled privately so we don't have any" and they will be like "Oh she was fine all along whey would she need them now?" 

I hear you, that it doesn't seem necessary to you, for anyone to DE ever, but for a student with these issues, they have to practice it before they go away on their own!  Otherwise she will be adjusting to too many things all at once.  We absolutely have to have her DE before going away. Maybe that won't be this semester, or maybe it won't be at the local physical CC, but it definitely needs to happen and several times so that she can get used to learning to advocate, and use accommodations.  

 

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While DS#2 with mild LDs refused to go through the hoops to be able to have special accommodations, he was able to take ASL as dual enrollment in 12th grade. He was very bright, articulate, and a great critical thinker as a high school student -- in many ways advanced. BUT, the stealth dyslexia -- slower reading level and very delayed writing ability -- meant that he had much more success by *waiting* until 12th grade to try DE.

I totally understand your DD's circumstances are very different -- just wanted to throw out there the idea that it would be okay to wait until 12th grade for your DD to do DE -- that would still use the accommodations so that they would still be available to her later on in college, but would give her another year (11th grade) for brain maturity and for her to find the ways that best help her to keep up the quicker pace of college level courses. Perhaps try some self-paced higher-level courses next year, and pick up the pace a bit to practice??

Just a thought. Wishing you and DD all the BEST, whatever you go with, and a very successful 11th and 12th grades as you enter the home stretch of high school! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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23 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

I should have asked this question on the Special Needs board.  I think perhaps you're not getting the fact that people with LDs and ADHD will rarely have a smooth sailing school year, and waiting won't change that.  Add to the fact that my dd has had a major life event this year causing major grief, and yes, there were tough moments.  Someone struggling doesn't mean you don't continue on with momentum or that they're inherently broken because they are bored.  They have to push through on some things and on some things they don't - maybe I shouldn't ask for help on here if it gives the impression that my dd doesn't ever finish what she starts or that she is unable to push through boredom.  My dd has been extremely self motivated and self taught this year, and continued on through a major loss and grief!  She should be applauded, not making it sound like she "bails on" things - The WTM classes, we quit during the trial period for Goodness sake.  They have a trial period for a reason.   So she only stopped ONE COURSE which was Biology and was for a very good reason.  

If she doesn't USE accommodations now, she won't GET them in a four year university.  They will say, "Can I see your IEP form your high school" and we will say "we homeschooled privately so we don't have any" and they will be like "Oh she was fine all along whey would she need them now?" 

I hear you, that it doesn't seem necessary to you, for anyone to DE ever, but for a student with these issues, they have to practice it before they go away on their own!  Otherwise she will be adjusting to too many things all at once.  We absolutely have to have her DE before going away. Maybe that won't be this semester, or maybe it won't be at the local physical CC, but it definitely needs to happen and several times so that she can get used to learning to advocate, and use accommodations.  

 

 I have 3 dyslexics and and autistic child with an alphabet soup of issues. I do understand special needs quite well. Fwiw, you are wrong about colleges wanting to see your accommodations from high school in order to receive them on campus. You apply for new accommodations with the college typically with a letter of suggested accommodations from their dr. (2 of my children have worked extensively with their disabilities office. 1 for learning disabilities and the other for serious health issues. And neither of them had any accommodations prior to college.) IEPs do not apply to colleges, but 504 accommodations exist. You might end up finding that what they are willing to offer her is different from her IEP.

I would want to work through getting through programs at home without issue before putting her in a college scenario.

But, you asked for opinions. That is mine. Feel free to ignore, but don't insinuate it is bc I am clueless about disabilities and accommodations.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart

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Thanks Lori, 

That is a good thought! I'm glad it worked for him.  I am thinking we will hold off on the idea of physical CC at least one more semester... and look into the Landmark class since they actually take the time to teach the students how college classes work, etc.  It won't interfere with her schedule, and she can focus on her regular high school classes.  She will be taking two more challenging classes next year at the co-op so even though she won't have an IEP, she will at least get the chance to talk to the teacher about her accommodations, and also learn to communicate with me and teachers if and when she is struggling.  So, that's something.  

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You might find this information helpful:

Quote

Because I receive special education services in high school, does Section 504 entitle me to disability support services in college?

There is no legislation at the postsecondary level that entitles you to the same level of academic support that you receive in high school. This means that if you have an IEP, Section 504 Plan, or any accommodations or modifications, they will not necessarily transfer into the college setting. Many students make the mistake of thinking that their IEPs will entitle them to similar services in college. The IEP is a legally binding document in high school but has no power at the postsecondary level. In fact, the determination of disability status in college is different than what it is in high school. Colleges have their own eligibility criteria for determining whether students have a disability that can be accommodated within their classrooms. This is based on the definition of disability in Section 504.

 

https://www.heath.gwu.edu/transitioning-high-school-college-spotlight-section-504

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32 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 

Thanks, I am fully aware that what happens in high school is completely separate and does not ENTITLE her to anything in college. However, everyone with experience on this topic has informed me, that she most certainly will have a HARDER time getting an IEP or accommodations in college, if she has none documented for high school 🙂 Thus, the need for documentation now as much as possible which we are doing with our own home grown IEP signed by teachers and PSP coordinator, as well as at the CC and any other place she might DE. 

 

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1 hour ago, Calming Tea said:

... Landmark class... they actually take the time to teach the students how college classes work, etc...


That would be very helpful!

Also, one last thought -- it looks like your DD is young (15yo in your signature). My DS#2 was a bit older due to a January b-day, which worked to his advantage to allow more time for brain maturing. He was 17.5+ yo his first semester of DE in the fall, turned 18yo in early January, and then did the second semester of DE in the spring fully at age 18 -- so probably 1.5years older than your DD would be if she started DE next fall as a new 16yo. ;)

Again, very best wishes, whatever you and DD decide on. Warmly, Lori D.

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15 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

 

Thanks, I am fully aware that what happens in high school is completely separate and does not ENTITLE her to anything in college. However, everyone with experience on this topic has informed me, that she most certainly will have a HARDER time getting an IEP or accommodations in college, if she has none documented for high school 🙂 Thus, the need for documentation now as much as possible which we are doing with our own home grown IEP signed by teachers and PSP coordinator, as well as at the CC and any other place she might DE. 

 

 

I'll be the one who tells you our story and it wasn't like that.  I don't know if location (different state) makes a difference. I don't think it does.  Or if it was the case of public university vs private university in how it gets handled.  But for the limited value it is worth,  I did want to add in my experiences with my oldest and college classes and accommodations.   She did not have an official IEP or even official diagnosis with in our homeschool years.  When she was entering college as a freshman, she got the full educational eval done.  With the results of that eval, she took it to college disabilities office.  Accommodations were given based on that document from the evaluator. Not from what mommy did.     From the college's point of view, it was never anything along the lines of why would she need them now.    It really was not a hard process at all.  Called the phd psychologist office. got appt within 6 weeks or less. had appt with testing. results back in 2 weeks.  That phd listed very specific recommendations for college classes. the staff person at the university printed a form letter with my dd's name on it and with specific professors that semester.  Daughter took letters to profs. got extra time and quiet room for testing.  It was an easy process.  The only time what my daughter did in high school for "accommodations" was asked was at the phd eval. I made a simple one page documented saying what we did and why.  It was an informal as it could be.  I guess in that sense we did have "documentation for high school".  But it was more about showing a pattern of what her disabilities were to get proper diagnosis.  It was not about what the college would or would not do. Then again, we didn't do dual enrollment.  Oldest started college after grade 12 (meaning turned 19 while in first year of college). was homeschooled the whole way until then.  She advocated for herself starting then. graduated on time with multiple degrees in stem. has a job.   I don't know what classes your daughter should take or not  I just wanted to get my experience in the college accommodation out there. 

Edited by cbollin
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13 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

 

Thanks, I am fully aware that what happens in high school is completely separate and does not ENTITLE her to anything in college. However, everyone with experience on this topic has informed me, that she most certainly will have a HARDER time getting an IEP or accommodations in college, if she has none documented for high school 🙂 Thus, the need for documentation now as much as possible which we are doing with our own home grown IEP signed by teachers and PSP coordinator, as well as at the CC and any other place she might DE. 

 

That is false. Getting accommodations for the SAT or ACT, yes. College, no. They do not need an IEP for college accommodations, just the letter of recommendations from their dr.

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Also, I am super glad to hear all your kids' colleges asked for was the doctor report, but I would be concerned to just rely on that at this point.  Maybe I need to do more research on the topic, because several people IRL, our doc, some websites, and etc. all mentioned that colleges would ask if she had an IEP in high school as proof that she needs one (aside from the Dr. report)...maybe I should call the colleges directly.  Aside from her needing to learn how to advocate and use her accommodations, that would definitely be one worry/concern to check off of my list.  (I'd still document the ones we are using with the co op teachers and PSP coordinator but it would definitely be nice to know it's not truly necessary.)

 

I mean, the CC didn't ask for anything - they were more than happy to help and just used the doctor report....so so far that has not been our experience.  But again, as I said, our local CC is so amazing and wanting to help, it's kind of shocking every time I go there 🙂

Edited by Calming Tea

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(This still doesn't take away my concern about her practicing using them at some point ahead of going, but definitely would be one worry to leave behind me...)

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5 minutes ago, cbollin said:

 

I'll be the one who tells you our story and it wasn't like that.  I don't know if location (different state) makes a difference. I don't think it does.  Or if it was the case of public university vs private university in how it gets handled.  But for the limited value it is worth,  I did want to add in my experiences with my oldest and college classes and accommodations.   She did not have an official IEP or even official diagnosis with in our homeschool years.  When she was entering college as a freshman, she got the full educational eval done.  With the results of that eval, she took it to college disabilities office.  Accommodations were given based on that document from the evaluator. Not from what mommy did.     From the college's point of view, it was never anything along the lines of why would she need them now.    It really was not a hard process at all.  Called the phd psychologist office. got appt within 6 weeks or less. had appt with testing. results back in 2 weeks.  That phd listed very specific recommendations for college classes. the staff person at the university printed a form letter with my dd's name on it and with specific professors that semester.  Daughter took letters to profs. got extra time and quiet room for testing.  It was an easy process.  The only time what my daughter did in high school for "accommodations" was asked was at the phd eval. I made a simple one page documented saying what we did and why.  It was an informal as it could be.  I guess in that sense we did have "documentation for high school".  But it was more about showing a pattern of what her disabilities were to get proper diagnosis.  It was not about what the college would or would not do. Then again, we didn't do dual enrollment.  Oldest started college after grade 12 (meaning turned 19 while in first year of college). was homeschooled the whole way until then.  She advocated for herself starting then. graduated on time with multiple degrees in stem. has a job.   I don't know what classes your daughter should take or not  I just wanted to get my experience in the college accommodation out there. 

 

Thanks! I think you're in our state, so ...I would imagine things would be similar.  I wonder if they'd be different / harder at a four year than at the CC?  We didn't have any issue getting accommodations with the Dr. Report at the CC.

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1 hour ago, Calming Tea said:

 

Thanks! I think you're in our state, so ...I would imagine things would be similar.  I wonder if they'd be different / harder at a four year than at the CC?  We didn't have any issue getting accommodations with the Dr. Report at the CC.

Different schools offer different levels of support, but no U is going to reject reasonable accommodations when presented with a dr's eval. 504 protects their rights.  The difference you will find is what level of supports schools have in place to begin with and the definition of reasonable. Some will state that just b/c it is recommended that they won't offer it.  They don't make the accommodation for any student.

For example, altering assignments or not requiring a foreign language.  That is absolutely not required by law and many Us won't offer that type of accommodation.  (There was a recent discussion about this on CC where the U denied the student's request for not requiring a foreign language. The student faced 2 choices--take the class in order to earn their degree or transfer to a different school.)  Students may get extended time for exams but not extend dates for assignments, depending on the school or professor.  Actual coursework is not required to be altered. 

This is a pretty stereotypical U view:

Quote

To ensure that qualified persons with a disability will not be discriminated against and will have access—not entitlement—to academic programs and services

All otherwise qualified individuals who meet entry criteria and who can document the existence of a disability as defined by the ADA and who have needs related to access

Education is an opportunity. Students must meet admissions criteria and be otherwise qualified. Students must also follow/meet other criteria of the institution such as health, character, technical standards, conduct code and course objectives. No fundamental alterations of programs and curricula are required.

Students must self-identify 

Students must seek out services. Students allowed only certain accommodations in college classrooms. Students must seek out tutoring, if needed, and must pay for it if the college does not provide tutoring for non-disabled students. Individualized instruction is not likely/guaranteed

Student must request and be eligible for accommodations EACH semester and the student is responsible for much of the accommodation process

No reduced assignments, extended time on assignments is usually at the discretion of the professor, no grading changes, no test format changes other than providing equal access, no extra attempts at tests; in other words, accommodations must be reasonable and must not compromise the rigor and/or academic integrity of the class

But, there should be zero concern that "proof" of previous accommodations have existed.  The "burden of proof" is the documentation of an existence of a disability.

 

 

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My ds had no trouble at all getting accommodations at college even though we had never had an official IEP at home  and he never took any classes at the cc during high school.  His accommodations were based on the recommendations of the doctor that did his evaluation.

The number one skill he has needed to implement his accommodations at college has been a willingness to approach his teachers during office hours to discuss them.  His years at a local coop developing relationships and communicating with his teachers helped him with this. If your dd delays taking a class at the cc, maybe she could begin advocating for herself with her coop teachers?

Edited by Mom0012
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A single, long class would not be a good place to start IMO.  If you want her to DE, I would suggest looking for an easier class that she's interested in that meets 2 or 3 times a week.  If you find DE necessary, then cut a few of the coop classes so that she has enough time.

 

Good luck!

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