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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

I think if you can't help a ton, he doesn't have a math tutor, and your son makes good use of the message board and online class, then the online class is worthwhile. I know that in my online classes, there are kids who get TONS of help from the message board. It's an excellent resource if you use it (although how much the actual teacher helps on the message board does depend on the teacher. However, there will be others whose job it is to monitor the board.)  

In my last precalc, one of the kids who made really good use of the messageboard was homeschooled, by the way :-). 

Thank you square_25 for your response.   My son dose ask a ton of questions for help when it comes to challenging and writing problems in certain weeks, esp. in intro to cp.  And btw, my son goes to a private day school.  

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

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20 hours ago, mathnerd said:

The courses with no textbooks have to be done with aops online or at their academy, obviously. But, for those with textbooks, there are very well written solutions manuals available as well, so, it is possible to learn by self study. In our case, the reason that we would use online classes is because they take a lot lesser time than when it is done by self study.

Oh. That's exactly our case. The prealgebra book was spread to almost 1.5year long. With the teacher, it is moving much faster😥

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22 hours ago, whangty said:

Thank you square_25 for your response.   My son dose ask a ton of questions for help when it comes to challenging and writing problems in certain weeks, esp. in intro to cp.  And btw, my son goes to a private day school.  

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

You might want to message Lewelma or Quark -- both their sons have taken both of those classes and might be able to compare the two.  

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Just now, square_25 said:

We’ve been updating the precalc, though. I’m in the odd position of being able to tell someone just about everything about precalc and nothing about intermediate algebra.

 

And my son has taken Intermediate but not Precalc:) . For him it took less time than Intro to Geometry, but his grade was lower, if that makes any sense. (A instead of an A+, lol) . I think by that point he was more comfortable giving up on the hardest problems, and he gave up on 6-7 throughout the course.  

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49 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Ah, makes sense. 

I've taught Intro to Geometry: it's a fun class! Which class did he like better? 

I'm going to have to teach Intermediate Algebra, just to compare :D. 

He is definitely more of an algebra person than a geometry person -- the geometry was a lot more out of the box for him, and required a lot more creative thinking than he was prepared to give:)  

The only issue he had with the Int Alg class was the pace of the class.  There was a lot to get through and the teacher ended class on time, vs the geometry class which always ran over. I think he would have preferred to have it run over! But he caught up and learned to read faster.  

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On 5/29/2019 at 11:23 AM, whangty said:

Thank you square_25 for your response.   My son dose ask a ton of questions for help when it comes to challenging and writing problems in certain weeks, esp. in intro to cp.  And btw, my son goes to a private day school.  

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

Intermediate algebra is a prereq for all the other intermediate courses including precalc. DS has taken both, but I don't have specific memories.

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On 5/29/2019 at 9:23 AM, whangty said:

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

 

Precalculus was at a more relaxing pace compare to Intermediate Algebra. However my kid took those classes in 2015/16, before the changes square_25 mentioned.

If AIME is your aim, check out the WOOT class https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/woot/schedule

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On 4/19/2019 at 12:46 PM, lewelma said:

It does take time to learn how to learn math in a discovery style.  I think this is why my ds took 3 years to get through the Intro A book.  During this time, he was learning so much more than algebra, he was learning problem solving, technical reading skills, requirements for mathematical proof, metacognition, effectively learning from solutions, etc. This plus time management, attention, persistence, etc. Once he learned all that, he was ready to move very quickly.  You asked about his ages, and this is what I remember

9-12 Intro A - self teaching with textbook

12-13.5 Intro Geomentry, Number Theory, Combinatorics - self teaching with textbooks

13.5 - 15.5 Intermediate combinatorics, intermediate number theory, intermediate algebra, Olympiad geometry, and precalculus - done through classes. 

His impression at the time was that there a number of younger kids who were quite braggy about their young ages who really couldn't do the work. There was more than one kid who stated on the board that he was going to loop back around and do all the classes again. It just made me think about the pressure to move quickly through math as a goal.  The race to calculus and all that.  But here it was the race through AoPS, like that was somehow the goal, rather than actually learning the content.  Get an 'A' because you had a ton of help, move on to the next class. But this only works for so long, when it catches up with you.

That just makes me think perhaps their parent's have more money than sense.  And it is a bit rude when many kids parent's scrimp and save for them to do the course once 

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8 hours ago, kiwik said:

That just makes me think perhaps their parent's have more money than sense.  And it is a bit rude when many kids parent's scrimp and save for them to do the course once 

It is actually because of the pressure cooker atmosphere in my area that parents do this. For an average kid to develop exceptional abilities in school math or for a very young kid to keep up with young-exceptional-overachievers (which is important to get into "good" programs because of competition for too few seats) many kids do the same math course twice. Right now, where I live, there are "summer institutes" that have waiting lists - all of them offer math which is taught in the upcoming school year in a condensed format. Kids spend half a day there doing math with the same textbook which they will use again in the upcoming academic year. This helps them get perfect test scores in school and qualify for special programs that are based on academic performances ... just another way in which the rat race manifests itself in some competitive regions of the world.

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

There are ups and down with this approach... on the one hand, it's obviously stressful for the kids. On the other hand, seeing material twice really does help you absorb it... 

it is a sad commentary on the pressures that a preteen faces when he spends a summer working on a Jurgensen geometry text in a summer camp and come Fall, the school teacher teaches the exact same content from the exact same book and the child remembers most of the content and scores high and hence qualifies for grade skip/acceleration and the cycle repeats every year. It could be more useful if the first pass through a topic used different textbooks than the school's texts, but then that would defeat the purpose of those clamoring for perfect test scores through any means. I have derailed this thread enough...

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15 hours ago, kiwik said:

That just makes me think perhaps their parent's have more money than sense.  And it is a bit rude when many kids parent's scrimp and save for them to do the course once 

 

For my area, the cost of an online AoPS course is a lot lower than many outsourced academic classes. I am paying $2.5k for a summer calculus class because DS13 learns better in a brick and mortar classroom than does not allow internet access and homework is all offline as well.

Also the first round of AoPS classes is probably for AMC 8/10/12 prep as well as SAT/ACT prep for talent search, Caroline Bradley scholarship, applying to schools like Stanford Online High School. Second round might be to get a good score for high school math credit. My kids have Bs for some of the AoPS courses, luckily we aren’t using any AoPS courses for high school GPA else my DS13 would wail over the B and ask to redo.

2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

it is a sad commentary on the pressures that a preteen faces when he spends a summer working on a Jurgensen geometry text in a summer camp and come Fall, the school teacher teaches the exact same content from the exact same book and the child remembers most of the content and scores high and hence qualifies for grade skip/acceleration and the cycle repeats every year. It could be more useful if the first pass through a topic used different textbooks than the school's texts, but then that would defeat the purpose of those clamoring for perfect test scores through any means.

 

Quite a few who attend summer school with my kids did it to grade skip math. The summer school doesn’t use the same textbook so it’s up to the parents to negotiate with their kids’ high school guidance counselor.

I have heard interesting stories from Cupertino and Palo Alto parents recently and I could sympathize with the parents on why they are paying for tutors and summer school for their high school kids.

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On 6/6/2019 at 11:08 AM, mathnerd said:

It is actually because of the pressure cooker atmosphere in my area that parents do this. For an average kid to develop exceptional abilities in school math or for a very young kid to keep up with young-exceptional-overachievers (which is important to get into "good" programs because of competition for too few seats) many kids do the same math course twice. Right now, where I live, there are "summer institutes" that have waiting lists - all of them offer math which is taught in the upcoming school year in a condensed format. Kids spend half a day there doing math with the same textbook which they will use again in the upcoming academic year. This helps them get perfect test scores in school and qualify for special programs that are based on academic performances ... just another way in which the rat race manifests itself in some competitive regions of the world.

 

This is what I see at the AoPS Academy here. The classes are mostly filled with public and private schoolers who are taking math that they will likely take again in school for a higher grade -- spending their weekends, evenings, and summers doing math that they are going to have to repeat later at a less challenging level later. Ugh. No wonder our kids are losing their intrinsic motivation to learn. 

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On 6/7/2019 at 10:25 AM, Arcadia said:

 

For my area, the cost of an online AoPS course is a lot lower than many outsourced academic classes. I am paying $2.5k for a summer calculus class because DS13 learns better in a brick and mortar classroom than does not allow internet access and homework is all offline as well.

Also the first round of AoPS classes is probably for AMC 8/10/12 prep as well as SAT/ACT prep for talent search, Caroline Bradley scholarship, applying to schools like Stanford Online High School. Second round might be to get a good score for high school math credit. My kids have Bs for some of the AoPS courses, luckily we aren’t using any AoPS courses for high school GPA else my DS13 would wail over the B and ask to redo.

 

Quite a few who attend summer school with my kids did it to grade skip math. The summer school doesn’t use the same textbook so it’s up to the parents to negotiate with their kids’ high school guidance counselor.

I have heard interesting stories from Cupertino and Palo Alto parents recently and I could sympathize with the parents on why they are paying for tutors and summer school for their high school kids.

I agree it is cheaper than $2500 but the people who are using nearly all their homeschool budget for that one class aren't choosing between AOPS and a $2500 class - they are choosing between the on line class and doing it using the text book or between the online class and some other equally valuable activity.  'If I don't do well this time my parents will just pay to redo it until I do" seems a very entitled attitude to me and not one that is very beneficial in the long term.  How about work through the text yourself until you are sure you will do well? Still I don't live in the US so don't have the same pressures.

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On 6/7/2019 at 10:25 AM, Arcadia said:

 

For my area, the cost of an online AoPS course is a lot lower than many outsourced academic classes. I am paying $2.5k for a summer calculus class because DS13 learns better in a brick and mortar classroom than does not allow internet access and homework is all offline as well.

Also the first round of AoPS classes is probably for AMC 8/10/12 prep as well as SAT/ACT prep for talent search, Caroline Bradley scholarship, applying to schools like Stanford Online High School. Second round might be to get a good score for high school math credit. My kids have Bs for some of the AoPS courses, luckily we aren’t using any AoPS courses for high school GPA else my DS13 would wail over the B and ask to redo.

 

Quite a few who attend summer school with my kids did it to grade skip math. The summer school doesn’t use the same textbook so it’s up to the parents to negotiate with their kids’ high school guidance counselor.

I have heard interesting stories from Cupertino and Palo Alto parents recently and I could sympathize with the parents on why they are paying for tutors and summer school for their high school kids.

Why though.  If you are ahead and need to skip maths because you are gifted in maths that is one thing.  What is the purpose of doing maths in summer then asking for a skip because you just did it? Why not enjoy summer and do maths during the year.  As far as I can tell from reading colleges don't care much if you were accelerated.

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4 hours ago, kiwik said:

  What is the purpose of doing maths in summer then asking for a skip because you just did it? Why not enjoy summer and do maths during the year.  As far as I can tell from reading colleges don't care much if you were accelerated.

 

Some want to reach calculus by 11th grade but was not in put in the algebra 1 class in 7th grade.  California used to have algebra 1 by 8th grade so the faster track becomes algebra 1 in 7th and/or 6th grade. Calculus in 11th grade means students could do AP Physics C concurrently in 11th grade. For school kids, having AP calculus BC and AP Physics C might boost their class rank and weighted GPA. My district puts about half of the cohort on the faster math track. So indirectly, half the cohort won’t have taken the most rigorous classes offered for math and probably physics as well. 

Our summer is too hot to enjoy other than hiding in an air condition location like the library or bookstore. Some of my friends’ kids are on vacation to their kids’ grandparents in other countries. However, many would take vacations during Thanksgiving and Christmas break when the weather is much nicer for road trips. 

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4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

Some want to reach calculus by 11th grade but was not in put in the algebra 1 class in 7th grade.  California used to have algebra 1 by 8th grade so the faster track becomes algebra 1 in 7th and/or 6th grade. Calculus in 11th grade means students could do AP Physics C concurrently in 11th grade. For school kids, having AP calculus BC and AP Physics C might boost their class rank and weighted GPA. My district puts about half of the cohort on the faster math track. So indirectly, half the cohort won’t have taken the most rigorous classes offered for math and probably physics as well. 

Our summer is too hot to enjoy other than hiding in an air condition location like the library or bookstore. Some of my friends’ kids are on vacation to their kids’ grandparents in other countries. However, many would take vacations during Thanksgiving and Christmas break when the weather is much nicer for road trips. 

This! Doing the course in summer (e.g. Geometry) will give the child almost 100% score in Geometry in the next school year - which means the kid is automatically picked for grade skip in math and will end up in a skipped level math course for the next grade. Getting a grade skip in math affects when the kid will get to calculus in high school. Getting to Calculus earlier opens up many options. Some of them are the ability to take advanced science classes, the others are the ability to be competitive in math in the AMC, Olympiads etc which is expected for entry to prestigious undergraduate programs. Parents also feel that doing a course twice "fills in the gaps in understanding" for the average mathy kid. Different folks, different strokes.

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16 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why though.  If you are ahead and need to skip maths because you are gifted in maths that is one thing.  What is the purpose of doing maths in summer then asking for a skip because you just did it? Why not enjoy summer and do maths during the year.  As far as I can tell from reading colleges don't care much if you were accelerated.

 

Some of us enjoy doing math in the summer...or any time of the year.  (I'm taking the AoPS Intermediate NT class now for fun.)  

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I agree maths is fun and I am sure some of the kids do too especially if it gets them out of the heat.

Coming from somewhere that doesn't have as many maths options and not really understanding them I assume that makes sense.  If ds12 skipped one year of maths he may be able to do a first year maths paper in his last year of school but other than that there are as many years of maths as there are at school so unless you have to repeat one you can do them all if you wish.

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On 4/18/2019 at 8:46 PM, lewelma said:

9-12 Intro A - self teaching with textbook

12-13.5 Intro Geomentry, Number Theory, Combinatorics - self teaching with textbooks

13.5 - 15.5 Intermediate combinatorics, intermediate number theory, intermediate algebra, Olympiad geometry, and precalculus - done through classes. 

His impression at the time was that there a number of younger kids who were quite braggy about their young ages who really couldn't do the work. There was more than one kid who stated on the board that he was going to loop back around and do all the classes again. It just made me think about the pressure to move quickly through math as a goal.  The race to calculus and all that.  But here it was the race through AoPS, like that was somehow the goal, rather than actually learning the content.  Get an 'A' because you had a ton of help, move on to the next class. But this only works for so long, when it catches up with you.

 I cannot agree with you more! I like how you coin the “discovery method”. 

I organized a Russian math circle for my DD and her friends since she was 4, most games.

We talk about math on weekend breakfast table a lot, so we can go free dive onto any topic comes to mind.

From grade 3, she started self learning using Khan. We had to sit with her for a while to show her that it is worthwhile to have a good understanding of content before doing any work. And this becomes more important when she uses BA in paper. Every time she asks a question, we ask: have you red the example and understand it? 

We talked about math strategies such as using small numbers first, use a table, draw a picture etc.

She is managing her own math learning now and I am just a cheer leader. I did not show her the AOPS yet and I know she will be there eventually. It has been a great journey to watch her exploring those on her own and have fun at the same time.

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9 hours ago, kiwik said:

  If ds12 skipped one year of maths he may be able to do a first year maths paper in his last year of school but other than that there are as many years of maths as there are at school so unless you have to repeat one you can do them all if you wish.

 

Some local public schools offer multivariable calculus after AP Calculus BC.  Those that don’t let their students do dual enrollment at community colleges for higher math classes. 

DS14 isn’t interested to start dual enrollment yet so he did his multivariable calculus class online. The course provider has 6 more math classes he could possibly do so he wouldn’t run out of classes if he decides to stick with this provider. 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

DS14 isn’t interested to start dual enrollment yet so he did his multivariable calculus class online. The course provider has 6 more math classes he could possibly do so he wouldn’t run out of classes if he decides to stick with this provider. 

 

Which course provider is that?

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2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

So, it is the exact same course as SOHS except it is $3500 cheaper and you might get college credit for it. Why would anyone pay for the SOHS version? How is your son liking their classes? I'm keeping these in the back of my mind.

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Just now, SeaConquest said:

So, it is the exact same course as SOHS except it is $3500 cheaper and you might get college credit for it. Why would anyone pay for the SOHS version? How is your son liking their classes? I'm keeping these in the back of my mind.

 

It is more of a self study mode. The math class has a weekly 1hr 15mins session with the lecturer. The physics class is a weekly drop in study session and sometimes the lecturer cancels if he can’t make it. So for physics the student has to treat the class as self study. 

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Just now, Arcadia said:

 

It is more of a self study mode. The math class has a weekly 1hr 15mins session with the lecturer. The physics class is a weekly drop in study session and sometimes the lecturer cancels if he can’t make it. So for physics the student has to treat the class as self study. 

 

That seems like tough material to self-study. So, the SOHS students get more lectures/instructor support?

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12 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

That seems like tough material to self-study. So, the SOHS students get more lectures/instructor support?

 

They should. SOHS is an online private school after all. DS14 isn’t interested in writing application essays for the SOHS single course application and the price tag for SOHS single course is high since he isn’t aiming to be a math major. 

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On 6/15/2019 at 11:50 AM, Arcadia said:

 

So did your kid(s) go all the way through AoPS and then to this?  What, if anything, did they use between AoPS and this provider? 

And if you happen to know, how do the various calculus courses and prerequisites listed relate back to traditional college calc I, II, and III? I though calc III was multivariate...? But then what is calc C?

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1 minute ago, Cake and Pi said:

So did your kid(s) go all the way through AoPS and then to this?  What, if anything, did they use between AoPS and this provider? 

And if you happen to know, how do the various calculus courses and prerequisites listed relate back to traditional college calc I, II, and III? I though calc III was multivariate...? But then what is calc C?

 

DS14 when from AoPS prealgebra to Calculus, then self study for the AP calc bc exam. Then he had fun with the aops WOOT class in 8th grade before using this provider in 9th grade. 

I think Calc C is Calc BC minus the part already covered in AP Calc AB. I have no idea how it relate back to the traditional college calc I, II, III, linear algebra sequence. 

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