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6 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

When DS13 was much younger, he learned better through audio than text because his listening speed was much higher than reading speed, and he didn’t have the maturity to be patient when reading. Then reading speed caught up and he likes text only or audio only, video format to him is a nice distraction. Kind of like choosing between watching a TEDtalk or reading the transcript, he would rather read the transcript. 

There was also the issue that since DS13 was a slower worker, the answers/solutions were given in the online class before he had finish working through the questions. 

 

Yeah, age 12-13 is when I’d expect the format to start working. I know some kids manage at younger ages, but I expect they are the exception and not the rule.

I’d also much rather read transcripts than watch or listen! It’s faster and I can go back if I need to.

Anyway, to each their own :-). From my perspective as a teacher, I’ve gotten very fond of the format and the access to my students’ thinking it gives! But I can totally see it doesn’t work for everyone.

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10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, age 12-13 is when I’d expect the format to start working. I know some kids manage at younger ages, but I expect they are the exception and not the rule.

I’d also much rather read transcripts than watch or listen! It’s faster and I can go back if I need to.

Anyway, to each their own :-). From my perspective as a teacher, I’ve gotten very fond of the format and the access to my students’ thinking it gives! But I can totally see it doesn’t work for everyone.

So true! My son absolutely cannot handle Khan academy and various TED talks for the reason that there is so much talk and audio distraction which diverts him from focusing on the content. He prefers something uncluttered which is purely text based (even mom hovering around during a class to see if he needed any help is a distraction) so that he can get his maximum focus going. 

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10 hours ago, square_25 said:

What did you dislike about the text format? The idea is to give you space to think about the ideas. I know I’ve never been able to follow a math lecture in real life and this would have worked better for me, since I’d have time to think without distractions.

 

For me, the book itself gives that space to think about the ideas, and the classes recommend that students work through the book before class. The classes shouldn’t be a rehash of the book. If they are, then they should stop advising that students work through the book first, because that just bores the students who follow that instruction. Text-based simply appeals to one learning preference. Some people learn best by direct instruction, some by video, some with manipulatives, some with talking concepts through; there are so many ways to learn. I learn some by reading, but I rarely fully internalize a concept that way.

For me, it’s about getting to discover and play on my own, which is unlikely to happen in any online class. My kid learns by hearing a concept talked through: a verbal/audio explanation of a concept, questioning (doesn’t matter if questions are in audio or text format), and verbal/audio responses - basically she learns when the format is a conversational style, even if the conversation itself is modified to fit a class style. And she’s a more auditory learner than I am. She loves audiobooks and listening to lectures, whereas I have no idea why anyone would like such things.

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And see, the text-based classes are a good fit for my 11yo and an excellent fit for my 7yo, for the time being, at least.

I think DS#1 would like it if there were audio, like if the text were read aloud to him, but he has extreme social anxiety and would not want to talk or have his name/username called out for any reason in the classroom. Text and whispers are good! He says he reads the book before class, but he doesn't really. He just looks through it, reads the highlighted boxes, and watches some of the videos. He depends on the in-class instruction.

DS#3 has issues with auditory input. He does the exploratory questions from the book before class but usually has no interest in the videos. There are different examples done in class, sometimes in totally different ways than what was shown in the book, and it keeps his attention for the most part. He lasts about an hour, anyway, then usually wonders off or ends up hanging upside down in his chair. The long pauses after the instructor asks a question work out well for him because he's not a very fast reader and is still very slow at typing. He also often does the assigned reading 2 or more weeks before the class that goes over them, so the class essentially becomes a useful review.

*I'm* thankful that his classmates cannot tell how young he is and that his off-topic/spam-like comments are not shared with the class. There was a recent pre-class discussion where everyone was sharing what grade they were in, mostly 6th-7th, someone mentioned that there was a *genius* 3rd grader in their Prealgebra class the previous term. I had to stop DS#3 from telling them that he was supposed to be in 1st grade but earned two grade skips and got to be in 3rd grade instead. Yeah, no social awareness there.

Edited by Cake and Pi
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On 4/20/2019 at 1:42 AM, Jackie said:

 

For me, the book itself gives that space to think about the ideas, and the classes recommend that students work through the book before class. The classes shouldn’t be a rehash of the book. If they are, then they should stop advising that students work through the book first, because that just bores the students who follow that instruction. Text-based simply appeals to one learning preference. Some people learn best by direct instruction, some by video, some with manipulatives, some with talking concepts through; there are so many ways to learn. I learn some by reading, but I rarely fully internalize a concept that way.

For me, it’s about getting to discover and play on my own, which is unlikely to happen in any online class. My kid learns by hearing a concept talked through: a verbal/audio explanation of a concept, questioning (doesn’t matter if questions are in audio or text format), and verbal/audio responses - basically she learns when the format is a conversational style, even if the conversation itself is modified to fit a class style. And she’s a more auditory learner than I am. She loves audiobooks and listening to lectures, whereas I have no idea why anyone would like such things.

 

Yeah, it sounds like it's not a good fit for her. About reading the book, though: that's generally good advice, even when lecture is a rehash of the book. It doesn't really matter while the material is easy, and I never needed to do this in middle school or high school. But by college, I rather regretted not having gotten in the habit of reading the book before the class. If the material is challenging, seeing it before really helps you make sense of the teaching. 

 

1 hour ago, Cake and Pi said:

And see, the text-based classes are a good fit for my 11yo and an excellent fit for my 7yo, for the time being, at least.

I think DS#1 would like it if there were audio, like if the text were read aloud to him, but he has extreme social anxiety and would not want to talk or have his name/username called out for any reason in the classroom. Text and whispers are good! He says he reads the book before class, but he doesn't really. He just looks through it, reads the highlighted boxes, and watches some of the videos. He depends on the in-class instruction.

DS#3 has issues with auditory input. He does the exploratory questions from the book before class but usually has no interest in the videos. There are different examples done in class, sometimes in totally different ways than what was shown in the book, and it keeps his attention for the most part. He lasts about an hour, anyway, then usually wonders off or ends up hanging upside down in his chair. The long pauses after the instructor asks a question work out well for him because he's not a very fast reader and is still very slow at typing. He also often does the assigned reading 2 or more weeks before the class that goes over them, so the class essentially becomes a useful review.

*I'm* thankful that his classmates cannot tell how young he is and that his off-topic/spam-like comments are not shared with the class. There was a recent pre-class discussion where everyone was sharing what grade they were in, mostly 6th-7th, someone mentioned that there was a *genius* 3rd grader in their Prealgebra class the previous term. I had to stop DS#3 from telling them that he was supposed to be in 1st grade but earned two grade skips and got to be in 3rd grade instead. Yeah, no social awareness there.

 

That's a great point: the anonymity of the classroom is something I really like about it. I like that I don't have any preconceived notions about how the students are going to do: I don't know ages, I don't know genders, I don't know anything, which means that no unconscious biases come into play. And I'm sure it helps that the other students don't have them, either. It's a great equalizer. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, it sounds like it's not a good fit for her. About reading the book, though: that's generally good advice, even when lecture is a rehash of the book. It doesn't really matter while the material is easy, and I never needed to do this in middle school or high school. But by college, I rather regretted not having gotten in the habit of reading the book before the class. If the material is challenging, seeing it before really helps you make sense of the teaching. 

 

My son didn't need to pre-read until Intermediate Algebra-- and then he only did it a few times.  But as the class seemed to go much faster than his previous ones (or there was more information to cover, or the information was in much bigger text chunks) so he found he needed to have a little familiarity with the concepts beforehand to be able to keep up. 

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On 4/18/2019 at 7:25 PM, SeaConquest said:

 

Rush, Sacha is taking Clover Creek Physics next year and he's only had AoPS PA. We just supplemented his Algebra skills with the first part of the CTY/Thinkwell Honors Algebra course (before we dropped it -- waaaaay too many problems) and selected problem sets from Dolciani and Jacobs Algebra. I really don't think you need to have completed AoPS Algebra in order to take the course (mine will also be taking AoPS Algebra at the Academy concurrently, which is 36 weeks, and includes C&P) -- just any Algebra course. I think the point is just to be able to solve physics equations using algebra. You might email Jetta to see what specific algebra skills are required to be successful in the course, but AoPS Algebra skills are overkill IMHO. 

Great! Then I guess they will be together :)

According to Jetta DS has to finish Algebra 1 AOPS, so we are trying to cover it. 

By the way in the end we decided to switch completely to our online private tutor,  the one with who DS was doing competitive maths for a few months during this scholastic year, but they will follow the AOPS program. For us its almost the same cost, but it will be more intensive and he teaches my kid to think, not just to solve. They will finish Algebra 1 by August and on the top Ds is also reading Jacobs Algebra and he has finished Life of Fred till Advance Algebra. I guess it will be more than enough :)

Thank you for everyone's input and reminding me about pros of live sessions. Much appreciated👍 😉

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Personally, I thnk the book is SO well written that you don't really need the online class.   The solutions are really, really nice too.   (I've never seen a math book with such nice solutions written out.)   PLUS there are free online instructional videos for the Algebra book.    PLUS there is a free practice program called Alcumus available.    PLUS, if your child needs help solving one of the problems, there is a free online forum with loads of math geniuses waiting to show off their skills and give assistance.  🙂  

My 2 cents---save your money and put it towards college....or one of the more difficult upper-level math classes.   

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8 hours ago, TheAttachedMama said:

Personally, I thnk the book is SO well written that you don't really need the online class.   The solutions are really, really nice too.   (I've never seen a math book with such nice solutions written out.)   PLUS there are free online instructional videos for the Algebra book.    PLUS there is a free practice program called Alcumus available.    PLUS, if your child needs help solving one of the problems, there is a free online forum with loads of math geniuses waiting to show off their skills and give assistance.  🙂  

My 2 cents---save your money and put it towards college....or one of the more difficult upper-level math classes.   

I agree with you. Ds did pre-algebra AOPS completely on his own. I was only checking his answers.

Unfortunately now time is changing and he needs more time structured courses/lessons and preferably not with me. He is very talented in maths, but it is far from his favourite subject and he need a good motivator or a mentor, who can make it more fun for him to learn. I am not mathematician and I cannot give that way his tutor can do. Beside the intro to algebra aops book is still being done individually, but the tutor mostly fills the holes and still concentrating on the Olympiad maths. This way instead of 2 different courses we have one program with less fees. Everyone is happy, ds is enjoying and gets a huge motivation to continue :)

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Is it correct to think that the online class could be more helpful with more advanced classes (e.g. intermediate classes and beyond)?   My son has taken following online classes: prealgebra b, intro to algebra a & b, intro to cp, and currently intro to geometry.   However, for financial reasons, I am asking him to study the intermediate algebra and other intermediate classes/books on his own in the future.   While I like to think that he can successfully study these classes/books on his own (since he has been pretty good at being an independent learner thus far), I cannot help but feel that online classes could make the learning easier and more fun.   

What do you think?   Would my son be missing out a lot by not taking online intermediate classes and instead studying them on his own?   For example, my son told me that there is no book for intermediate number theory class.  Also, I suppose there is no book that one can study in place of "WOOT."  What might be pros and cons of online class vs. self-study at intermediate level and beyond?  

Thx. much in advance for your response.  

Edited by whangty
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12 hours ago, whangty said:

Is it correct to think that the online class could be more helpful with more advanced classes (e.g. intermediate classes and beyond)?   My son has taken following online classes: prealgebra b, intro to algebra a & b, intro to cp, and currently intro to geometry.   However, for financial reasons, I am asking him to study the intermediate algebra and other intermediate classes/books on his own in the future.   While I like to think that he can successfully study these classes/books on his own (since he has been pretty good at being an independent learner thus far), I cannot help but feel that online classes could make the learning easier and more fun.   

What do you think?   Would my son be missing out a lot by not taking online intermediate classes and instead studying them on his own?   For example, my son told me that there is no book for intermediate number theory class.  Also, I suppose there is no book that one can study in place of "WOOT."  What might be pros and cons of online class vs. self-study at intermediate level and beyond?  

Thx. much in advance for your response.  

 

For the classes which do have a textbook, the class is not essential. For us, we do the classes because the structure helps to keep DS on track, and also I can observe DS doing the live class and see that he is getting it (95% of the time - and the other 5% I can follow up on).

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12 hours ago, whangty said:

Is it correct to think that the online class could be more helpful with more advanced classes (e.g. intermediate classes and beyond)?   My son has taken following online classes: prealgebra b, intro to algebra a & b, intro to cp, and currently intro to geometry.   However, for financial reasons, I am asking him to study the intermediate algebra and other intermediate classes/books on his own in the future.   While I like to think that he can successfully study these classes/books on his own (since he has been pretty good at being an independent learner thus far), I cannot help but feel that online classes could make the learning easier and more fun.   

What do you think?   Would my son be missing out a lot by not taking online intermediate classes and instead studying them on his own?   For example, my son told me that there is no book for intermediate number theory class.  Also, I suppose there is no book that one can study in place of "WOOT."  What might be pros and cons of online class vs. self-study at intermediate level and beyond?  

Thx. much in advance for your response.  

 

I think it depends on your comfort level with the material. Will you be able to help out if he gets stuck? The nice thing about the classes is you get a community of peers and teachers who are engaging with the same material and can keep you on track. 

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22 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

I think it depends on your comfort level with the material. Will you be able to help out if he gets stuck? The nice thing about the classes is you get a community of peers and teachers who are engaging with the same material and can keep you on track. 

Unfortunately, at intermediate level, I don't think I can be of much help.   Even in majority of intro classes to be honest, I have not been of much help to my son in spite of my engineering background.  This is precisely one of my main concerns: the more advanced the class gets, the more help my son would need from the AoPS resources offered via online class.  

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The courses with no textbooks have to be done with aops online or at their academy, obviously. But, for those with textbooks, there are very well written solutions manuals available as well, so, it is possible to learn by self study. In our case, the reason that we would use online classes is because they take a lot lesser time than when it is done by self study.

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52 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

The courses with no textbooks have to be done with aops online or at their academy, obviously. But, for those with textbooks, there are very well written solutions manuals available as well, so, it is possible to learn by self study. In our case, the reason that we would use online classes is because they take a lot lesser time than when it is done by self study.

Thank you for your response.   However, my hunch is that as the classes become more advanced (intermediate level and beyond), the help offered from online class may become more helpful or even necessary, esp. for younger students who are trying to learn advanced materials.   For example, my son is in intro to geo online currently.   He was self-studying the geo book on his own, but he is currently stuck in chapter 7, although I think given enough time he can still do chapter 7 on his own.   Glad that he will have the online class to help him when they hit chapter 7 in a couple of weeks.   So, for intermediate algebra, I am concerned that the same scenario may repeat.   My son is a rising 6th grader.

Edited by whangty

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Geometry Chapter 7 with all the triangle centers is indeed tricky.  I would suggest to him that he frequently review each center, so he can quickly do a back of the envelope derivation of the properties of each one and why: median, orthocenter, incenter, circumcenter.  It gets confusing, and I thought it was the most difficult chapter in the book.  

My kids never used the online classes for the "core" math classes, but I am pretty strong in math, so I was heavily involved in the teaching.  They used the online classes for the elective courses prepping for AMC and MathCounts.  

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On 5/28/2019 at 1:41 PM, whangty said:

   He was self-studying the geo book on his own, but he is currently stuck in chapter 7, although I think given enough time he can still do chapter 7 on his own.   Glad that he will have the online class to help him when they hit chapter 7 in a couple of weeks. 

 

Your son can post his problem here https://artofproblemsolving.com/community/c71_aops_books

Edited by Arcadia
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On 4/19/2019 at 11:04 AM, HomeForNow said:

AoPS email "Coming Soon: Self-Paced Courses"

https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/7-accelerated-learner-board/

 

Ds12 has been a tester on the first two versions of this.  He really likes the current semi-interactive self paced lessons.  I am hoping the next one becomes available quickly.

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18 hours ago, whangty said:

Thank you for your response.   However, my hunch is that as the classes become more advanced (intermediate level and beyond), the help offered from online class may become more helpful or even necessary, esp. for younger students who are trying to learn advanced materials.   For example, my son is in intro to geo online currently.   He was self-studying the geo book on his own, but he is currently stuck in chapter 7, although I think given enough time he can still do chapter 7 on his own.   Glad that he will have the online class to help him when they hit chapter 7 in a couple of weeks.   So, for intermediate algebra, I am concerned that the same scenario may repeat.   My son is a rising 6th grader.

 

I think if you can't help a ton, he doesn't have a math tutor, and your son makes good use of the message board and online class, then the online class is worthwhile. I know that in my online classes, there are kids who get TONS of help from the message board. It's an excellent resource if you use it (although how much the actual teacher helps on the message board does depend on the teacher. However, there will be others whose job it is to monitor the board.)  

In my last precalc, one of the kids who made really good use of the messageboard was homeschooled, by the way :-). 

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

I think if you can't help a ton, he doesn't have a math tutor, and your son makes good use of the message board and online class, then the online class is worthwhile. I know that in my online classes, there are kids who get TONS of help from the message board. It's an excellent resource if you use it (although how much the actual teacher helps on the message board does depend on the teacher. However, there will be others whose job it is to monitor the board.)  

In my last precalc, one of the kids who made really good use of the messageboard was homeschooled, by the way :-). 

Thank you square_25 for your response.   My son dose ask a ton of questions for help when it comes to challenging and writing problems in certain weeks, esp. in intro to cp.  And btw, my son goes to a private day school.  

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

Edited by whangty
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20 hours ago, mathnerd said:

The courses with no textbooks have to be done with aops online or at their academy, obviously. But, for those with textbooks, there are very well written solutions manuals available as well, so, it is possible to learn by self study. In our case, the reason that we would use online classes is because they take a lot lesser time than when it is done by self study.

Oh. That's exactly our case. The prealgebra book was spread to almost 1.5year long. With the teacher, it is moving much faster😥

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1 hour ago, whangty said:

Thank you square_25 for your response.   My son dose ask a ton of questions for help when it comes to challenging and writing problems in certain weeks, esp. in intro to cp.  And btw, my son goes to a private day school.  

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

Ah, sorry, I didn't realize he went to school! 

I've actually never taught intermediate algebra, so I can't comment on it. I know they are both considered "intermediate" classes, but I'm not sure precisely what that means. 

As for the AIME, I'd say that the precalc class wouldn't be super useful, since the content is pretty orthogonal to contest content. It's not really a standard precalc class: it has trig (which IS standard), then complex numbers (not standard), then vectors and matrices (not standard.) I think the content is very neat and elegant and the kids enjoy it, but it's not contest prep. 

 

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On 4/17/2019 at 6:12 AM, square_25 said:

Are there no other sections? 

All the sections for AOPS are the same time though not the same day.

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22 hours ago, whangty said:

Thank you square_25 for your response.   My son dose ask a ton of questions for help when it comes to challenging and writing problems in certain weeks, esp. in intro to cp.  And btw, my son goes to a private day school.  

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

You might want to message Lewelma or Quark -- both their sons have taken both of those classes and might be able to compare the two.  

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16 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

You might want to message Lewelma or Quark -- both their sons have taken both of those classes and might be able to compare the two.  

We’ve been updating the precalc, though. I’m in the odd position of being able to tell someone just about everything about precalc and nothing about intermediate algebra.

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Just now, square_25 said:

We’ve been updating the precalc, though. I’m in the odd position of being able to tell someone just about everything about precalc and nothing about intermediate algebra.

 

And my son has taken Intermediate but not Precalc:) . For him it took less time than Intro to Geometry, but his grade was lower, if that makes any sense. (A instead of an A+, lol) . I think by that point he was more comfortable giving up on the hardest problems, and he gave up on 6-7 throughout the course.  

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Ah, makes sense. 

I've taught Intro to Geometry: it's a fun class! Which class did he like better? 

I'm going to have to teach Intermediate Algebra, just to compare :D. 

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49 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Ah, makes sense. 

I've taught Intro to Geometry: it's a fun class! Which class did he like better? 

I'm going to have to teach Intermediate Algebra, just to compare :D. 

He is definitely more of an algebra person than a geometry person -- the geometry was a lot more out of the box for him, and required a lot more creative thinking than he was prepared to give:)  

The only issue he had with the Int Alg class was the pace of the class.  There was a lot to get through and the teacher ended class on time, vs the geometry class which always ran over. I think he would have preferred to have it run over! But he caught up and learned to read faster.  

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On 5/29/2019 at 11:23 AM, whangty said:

Thank you square_25 for your response.   My son dose ask a ton of questions for help when it comes to challenging and writing problems in certain weeks, esp. in intro to cp.  And btw, my son goes to a private day school.  

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

Intermediate algebra is a prereq for all the other intermediate courses including precalc. DS has taken both, but I don't have specific memories.

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15 minutes ago, HomeForNow said:

Intermediate algebra is a prereq for all the other intermediate courses including precalc. DS has taken both, but I don't have specific memories.

You know, I totally didn’t realize that intermediate algebra was a prerequisite!

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On 5/29/2019 at 9:23 AM, whangty said:

Since you have mentioned precalc, I am wondering how the AoPS precalc class compares to intermediate algebra class in terms of difficulty.   It seems that both intermediate algebra and precal are excellent classes, esp. for those students who are studying for AIME.

 

Precalculus was at a more relaxing pace compare to Intermediate Algebra. However my kid took those classes in 2015/16, before the changes square_25 mentioned.

If AIME is your aim, check out the WOOT class https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/woot/schedule

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18 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Precalculus was at a more relaxing pace compare to Intermediate Algebra. However my kid took those classes in 2015/16, before the changes square_25 mentioned.

If AIME is your aim, check out the WOOT class https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/woot/schedule

Precalc is getting slightly more relaxed if anything. So that’s still pertinent.

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On 4/19/2019 at 12:46 PM, lewelma said:

It does take time to learn how to learn math in a discovery style.  I think this is why my ds took 3 years to get through the Intro A book.  During this time, he was learning so much more than algebra, he was learning problem solving, technical reading skills, requirements for mathematical proof, metacognition, effectively learning from solutions, etc. This plus time management, attention, persistence, etc. Once he learned all that, he was ready to move very quickly.  You asked about his ages, and this is what I remember

9-12 Intro A - self teaching with textbook

12-13.5 Intro Geomentry, Number Theory, Combinatorics - self teaching with textbooks

13.5 - 15.5 Intermediate combinatorics, intermediate number theory, intermediate algebra, Olympiad geometry, and precalculus - done through classes. 

His impression at the time was that there a number of younger kids who were quite braggy about their young ages who really couldn't do the work. There was more than one kid who stated on the board that he was going to loop back around and do all the classes again. It just made me think about the pressure to move quickly through math as a goal.  The race to calculus and all that.  But here it was the race through AoPS, like that was somehow the goal, rather than actually learning the content.  Get an 'A' because you had a ton of help, move on to the next class. But this only works for so long, when it catches up with you.

That just makes me think perhaps their parent's have more money than sense.  And it is a bit rude when many kids parent's scrimp and save for them to do the course once 

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8 hours ago, kiwik said:

That just makes me think perhaps their parent's have more money than sense.  And it is a bit rude when many kids parent's scrimp and save for them to do the course once 

It is actually because of the pressure cooker atmosphere in my area that parents do this. For an average kid to develop exceptional abilities in school math or for a very young kid to keep up with young-exceptional-overachievers (which is important to get into "good" programs because of competition for too few seats) many kids do the same math course twice. Right now, where I live, there are "summer institutes" that have waiting lists - all of them offer math which is taught in the upcoming school year in a condensed format. Kids spend half a day there doing math with the same textbook which they will use again in the upcoming academic year. This helps them get perfect test scores in school and qualify for special programs that are based on academic performances ... just another way in which the rat race manifests itself in some competitive regions of the world.

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27 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

It is actually because of the pressure cooker atmosphere in my area that parents do this. For an average kid to develop exceptional abilities in school math or for a very young kid to keep up with young-exceptional-overachievers (which is important to get into "good" programs because of competition for too few seats) many kids do the same math course twice. Right now, where I live, there are "summer institutes" that have waiting lists - all of them offer math which is taught in the upcoming school year in a condensed format. Kids spend half a day there doing math with the same textbook which they will use again in the upcoming academic year. This helps them get perfect test scores in school and qualify for special programs that are based on academic performances ... just another way in which the rat race manifests itself in some competitive regions of the world.

 

There are ups and down with this approach... on the one hand, it's obviously stressful for the kids. On the other hand, seeing material twice really does help you absorb it... 

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

There are ups and down with this approach... on the one hand, it's obviously stressful for the kids. On the other hand, seeing material twice really does help you absorb it... 

it is a sad commentary on the pressures that a preteen faces when he spends a summer working on a Jurgensen geometry text in a summer camp and come Fall, the school teacher teaches the exact same content from the exact same book and the child remembers most of the content and scores high and hence qualifies for grade skip/acceleration and the cycle repeats every year. It could be more useful if the first pass through a topic used different textbooks than the school's texts, but then that would defeat the purpose of those clamoring for perfect test scores through any means. I have derailed this thread enough...

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15 hours ago, kiwik said:

That just makes me think perhaps their parent's have more money than sense.  And it is a bit rude when many kids parent's scrimp and save for them to do the course once 

 

For my area, the cost of an online AoPS course is a lot lower than many outsourced academic classes. I am paying $2.5k for a summer calculus class because DS13 learns better in a brick and mortar classroom than does not allow internet access and homework is all offline as well.

Also the first round of AoPS classes is probably for AMC 8/10/12 prep as well as SAT/ACT prep for talent search, Caroline Bradley scholarship, applying to schools like Stanford Online High School. Second round might be to get a good score for high school math credit. My kids have Bs for some of the AoPS courses, luckily we aren’t using any AoPS courses for high school GPA else my DS13 would wail over the B and ask to redo.

2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

it is a sad commentary on the pressures that a preteen faces when he spends a summer working on a Jurgensen geometry text in a summer camp and come Fall, the school teacher teaches the exact same content from the exact same book and the child remembers most of the content and scores high and hence qualifies for grade skip/acceleration and the cycle repeats every year. It could be more useful if the first pass through a topic used different textbooks than the school's texts, but then that would defeat the purpose of those clamoring for perfect test scores through any means.

 

Quite a few who attend summer school with my kids did it to grade skip math. The summer school doesn’t use the same textbook so it’s up to the parents to negotiate with their kids’ high school guidance counselor.

I have heard interesting stories from Cupertino and Palo Alto parents recently and I could sympathize with the parents on why they are paying for tutors and summer school for their high school kids.

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On 6/6/2019 at 11:08 AM, mathnerd said:

It is actually because of the pressure cooker atmosphere in my area that parents do this. For an average kid to develop exceptional abilities in school math or for a very young kid to keep up with young-exceptional-overachievers (which is important to get into "good" programs because of competition for too few seats) many kids do the same math course twice. Right now, where I live, there are "summer institutes" that have waiting lists - all of them offer math which is taught in the upcoming school year in a condensed format. Kids spend half a day there doing math with the same textbook which they will use again in the upcoming academic year. This helps them get perfect test scores in school and qualify for special programs that are based on academic performances ... just another way in which the rat race manifests itself in some competitive regions of the world.

 

This is what I see at the AoPS Academy here. The classes are mostly filled with public and private schoolers who are taking math that they will likely take again in school for a higher grade -- spending their weekends, evenings, and summers doing math that they are going to have to repeat later at a less challenging level later. Ugh. No wonder our kids are losing their intrinsic motivation to learn. 

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On 6/7/2019 at 10:25 AM, Arcadia said:

 

For my area, the cost of an online AoPS course is a lot lower than many outsourced academic classes. I am paying $2.5k for a summer calculus class because DS13 learns better in a brick and mortar classroom than does not allow internet access and homework is all offline as well.

Also the first round of AoPS classes is probably for AMC 8/10/12 prep as well as SAT/ACT prep for talent search, Caroline Bradley scholarship, applying to schools like Stanford Online High School. Second round might be to get a good score for high school math credit. My kids have Bs for some of the AoPS courses, luckily we aren’t using any AoPS courses for high school GPA else my DS13 would wail over the B and ask to redo.

 

Quite a few who attend summer school with my kids did it to grade skip math. The summer school doesn’t use the same textbook so it’s up to the parents to negotiate with their kids’ high school guidance counselor.

I have heard interesting stories from Cupertino and Palo Alto parents recently and I could sympathize with the parents on why they are paying for tutors and summer school for their high school kids.

I agree it is cheaper than $2500 but the people who are using nearly all their homeschool budget for that one class aren't choosing between AOPS and a $2500 class - they are choosing between the on line class and doing it using the text book or between the online class and some other equally valuable activity.  'If I don't do well this time my parents will just pay to redo it until I do" seems a very entitled attitude to me and not one that is very beneficial in the long term.  How about work through the text yourself until you are sure you will do well? Still I don't live in the US so don't have the same pressures.

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On 6/7/2019 at 10:25 AM, Arcadia said:

 

For my area, the cost of an online AoPS course is a lot lower than many outsourced academic classes. I am paying $2.5k for a summer calculus class because DS13 learns better in a brick and mortar classroom than does not allow internet access and homework is all offline as well.

Also the first round of AoPS classes is probably for AMC 8/10/12 prep as well as SAT/ACT prep for talent search, Caroline Bradley scholarship, applying to schools like Stanford Online High School. Second round might be to get a good score for high school math credit. My kids have Bs for some of the AoPS courses, luckily we aren’t using any AoPS courses for high school GPA else my DS13 would wail over the B and ask to redo.

 

Quite a few who attend summer school with my kids did it to grade skip math. The summer school doesn’t use the same textbook so it’s up to the parents to negotiate with their kids’ high school guidance counselor.

I have heard interesting stories from Cupertino and Palo Alto parents recently and I could sympathize with the parents on why they are paying for tutors and summer school for their high school kids.

Why though.  If you are ahead and need to skip maths because you are gifted in maths that is one thing.  What is the purpose of doing maths in summer then asking for a skip because you just did it? Why not enjoy summer and do maths during the year.  As far as I can tell from reading colleges don't care much if you were accelerated.

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4 hours ago, kiwik said:

  What is the purpose of doing maths in summer then asking for a skip because you just did it? Why not enjoy summer and do maths during the year.  As far as I can tell from reading colleges don't care much if you were accelerated.

 

Some want to reach calculus by 11th grade but was not in put in the algebra 1 class in 7th grade.  California used to have algebra 1 by 8th grade so the faster track becomes algebra 1 in 7th and/or 6th grade. Calculus in 11th grade means students could do AP Physics C concurrently in 11th grade. For school kids, having AP calculus BC and AP Physics C might boost their class rank and weighted GPA. My district puts about half of the cohort on the faster math track. So indirectly, half the cohort won’t have taken the most rigorous classes offered for math and probably physics as well. 

Our summer is too hot to enjoy other than hiding in an air condition location like the library or bookstore. Some of my friends’ kids are on vacation to their kids’ grandparents in other countries. However, many would take vacations during Thanksgiving and Christmas break when the weather is much nicer for road trips. 

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4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

Some want to reach calculus by 11th grade but was not in put in the algebra 1 class in 7th grade.  California used to have algebra 1 by 8th grade so the faster track becomes algebra 1 in 7th and/or 6th grade. Calculus in 11th grade means students could do AP Physics C concurrently in 11th grade. For school kids, having AP calculus BC and AP Physics C might boost their class rank and weighted GPA. My district puts about half of the cohort on the faster math track. So indirectly, half the cohort won’t have taken the most rigorous classes offered for math and probably physics as well. 

Our summer is too hot to enjoy other than hiding in an air condition location like the library or bookstore. Some of my friends’ kids are on vacation to their kids’ grandparents in other countries. However, many would take vacations during Thanksgiving and Christmas break when the weather is much nicer for road trips. 

This! Doing the course in summer (e.g. Geometry) will give the child almost 100% score in Geometry in the next school year - which means the kid is automatically picked for grade skip in math and will end up in a skipped level math course for the next grade. Getting a grade skip in math affects when the kid will get to calculus in high school. Getting to Calculus earlier opens up many options. Some of them are the ability to take advanced science classes, the others are the ability to be competitive in math in the AMC, Olympiads etc which is expected for entry to prestigious undergraduate programs. Parents also feel that doing a course twice "fills in the gaps in understanding" for the average mathy kid. Different folks, different strokes.

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16 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why though.  If you are ahead and need to skip maths because you are gifted in maths that is one thing.  What is the purpose of doing maths in summer then asking for a skip because you just did it? Why not enjoy summer and do maths during the year.  As far as I can tell from reading colleges don't care much if you were accelerated.

 

Some of us enjoy doing math in the summer...or any time of the year.  (I'm taking the AoPS Intermediate NT class now for fun.)  

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I agree maths is fun and I am sure some of the kids do too especially if it gets them out of the heat.

Coming from somewhere that doesn't have as many maths options and not really understanding them I assume that makes sense.  If ds12 skipped one year of maths he may be able to do a first year maths paper in his last year of school but other than that there are as many years of maths as there are at school so unless you have to repeat one you can do them all if you wish.

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On 4/18/2019 at 8:46 PM, lewelma said:

9-12 Intro A - self teaching with textbook

12-13.5 Intro Geomentry, Number Theory, Combinatorics - self teaching with textbooks

13.5 - 15.5 Intermediate combinatorics, intermediate number theory, intermediate algebra, Olympiad geometry, and precalculus - done through classes. 

His impression at the time was that there a number of younger kids who were quite braggy about their young ages who really couldn't do the work. There was more than one kid who stated on the board that he was going to loop back around and do all the classes again. It just made me think about the pressure to move quickly through math as a goal.  The race to calculus and all that.  But here it was the race through AoPS, like that was somehow the goal, rather than actually learning the content.  Get an 'A' because you had a ton of help, move on to the next class. But this only works for so long, when it catches up with you.

 I cannot agree with you more! I like how you coin the “discovery method”. 

I organized a Russian math circle for my DD and her friends since she was 4, most games.

We talk about math on weekend breakfast table a lot, so we can go free dive onto any topic comes to mind.

From grade 3, she started self learning using Khan. We had to sit with her for a while to show her that it is worthwhile to have a good understanding of content before doing any work. And this becomes more important when she uses BA in paper. Every time she asks a question, we ask: have you red the example and understand it? 

We talked about math strategies such as using small numbers first, use a table, draw a picture etc.

She is managing her own math learning now and I am just a cheer leader. I did not show her the AOPS yet and I know she will be there eventually. It has been a great journey to watch her exploring those on her own and have fun at the same time.

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9 hours ago, kiwik said:

  If ds12 skipped one year of maths he may be able to do a first year maths paper in his last year of school but other than that there are as many years of maths as there are at school so unless you have to repeat one you can do them all if you wish.

 

Some local public schools offer multivariable calculus after AP Calculus BC.  Those that don’t let their students do dual enrollment at community colleges for higher math classes. 

DS14 isn’t interested to start dual enrollment yet so he did his multivariable calculus class online. The course provider has 6 more math classes he could possibly do so he wouldn’t run out of classes if he decides to stick with this provider. 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

DS14 isn’t interested to start dual enrollment yet so he did his multivariable calculus class online. The course provider has 6 more math classes he could possibly do so he wouldn’t run out of classes if he decides to stick with this provider. 

 

Which course provider is that?

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