AoPS online school

[Rush]

Due to living in Europe we cannot attend the live classes. Does it worth to follow offline? 

They say that lots of international students did that way. Is there anyone here who takes them this way?

At the moment we are interested in Intro to Algebra & MathCounts/AMC 8 Basic.

Many thanks

[Jackie]

My daughter is in the last week of Algebra A. She did not find the classes themselves particularly helpful/useful. They want students to have already read the section and worked at least some problems before class, and yet the class time was spent going over the same basic information that they were expected to have already read and worked with. So, while she did usually attend the classes, she was no worse off during the weeks she skipped class due to schedule conflicts. The full class transcripts are posted, so if there are questions, it’s easy enough to see what was discussed.

[Arcadia]

It depends on your child’s personality.

For DS13, he is not driven to reading the class transcripts so he needed the online class or a local tutor for the “pressure” to meet deadlines. DS14 helped him too.

For DS14, he would read transcripts for even the classes he attended to see what he miss out during the class, kind of like a review/recap. However DS14 also participated in study groups set up by his AoPS online classes’ classmates. So the AoPS online classes were more beneficial to him than for DS13. 

DS13 took the MathCounts/AMC 8 Basic weekend seminar (https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/maa-amc8-special) a few years back for fun. I think it was 3hrs on 2 days (Saturday and Sunday) so 6hrs total. If your child don’t mind two near midnight classes, that might work. 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

If the ages of your kids is up to date, I would think that would make a difference -- my son at age 10-11 would have a much harder time synthesizing the learning from reading a transcript vs being in class and working the examples real time.  Now at 13 he struggles less with it -- he has missed a few classes, but even so it feels more like a slog to work through the transcript than to participate.   Working through the problems before being given the answer vs knowing the answer is right there a few lines down cuts down on the temptation to skip the grunt work!

As a previous poster mentioned, they were asked to read the section and work some problems beforehand. My son never did - at most in Intermediate Alg he skimmed the sections beforehand. 

[HomeForNow]

The class is a live event where the students needs to be thinking about maths and responding in real time. I watch DS taking the classes, so I can see how he is doing. I would only pay for books and not courses if he were not going to do the live classes in real time.

 

[Rush]

Thank you guys. I see your points and I agree with you, but now I am completely lost if we should take these classes or not. The book is quiet easy and it explains everything very well.

Is there any other reason why everyone enrols for classes yet?

On 4/5/2019 at 6:20 AM, Jackie said:

My daughter is in the last week of Algebra A. She did not find the classes themselves particularly helpful/useful. They want students to have already read the section and worked at least some problems before class, and yet the class time was spent going over the same basic information that they were expected to have already read and worked with. So, while she did usually attend the classes, she was no worse off during the weeks she skipped class due to schedule conflicts. The full class transcripts are posted, so if there are questions, it’s easy enough to see what was discussed.

What are you planning for the next years, a course or independent learning? 

I am not sure what i have to do now. The course is about to start😓

Oh, no. We have missed the class and there are already 15 people in the waiting list !😞

 

 

 

[Jackie]

41 minutes ago, Rush said:

 

What are you planning for the next years, a course or independent learning? 

 

 

We will continue to use the AOPS books independently.

[lewelma]

We are in NZ, so the time zone is in our favor and ds could attend the classes real time in the middle of the day.  However, if he did miss a class, trying to read through the transcript was not much fun.  It was the class that was fun, because it was a race to get put on the top 5 responders.  He definitely enjoyed the classes.  But he also did the entire Intro Algebra and Intro Geometry books on his own, and loved them too.

Ruth in NZ

[Rush]

3 hours ago, Jackie said:

 

We will continue to use the AOPS books independently.

 

49 minutes ago, lewelma said:

We are in NZ, so the time zone is in our favor and ds could attend the classes real time in the middle of the day.  However, if he did miss a class, trying to read through the transcript was not much fun.  It was the class that was fun, because it was a race to get put on the top 5 responders.  He definitely enjoyed the classes.  But he also did the entire Intro Algebra and Intro Geometry books on his own, and loved them too.

Ruth in NZ

Thank you to both of you!

I think we will do the same and continue working independently too.

3 hours ago, square_25 said:

Are there no other sections? 

My apology, but I did not understand your question. What did you mean?

[mathnerd]

They offer another session in May for Intro to Algebra.

[Jackie]

7 hours ago, lewelma said:

We are in NZ, so the time zone is in our favor and ds could attend the classes real time in the middle of the day.  However, if he did miss a class, trying to read through the transcript was not much fun.  It was the class that was fun, because it was a race to get put on the top 5 responders.  He definitely enjoyed the classes.  But he also did the entire Intro Algebra and Intro Geometry books on his own, and loved them too.

Ruth in NZ

 

Top 5? Like a race to the answers? This might have made it more interesting for my kid. She would answer a question, then wait for the answers to get pushed through, get distracted, and completely lose the thread of the class in her distraction. And which answers were pushed through for her class seemed random. I watched at times, and she would have immediately gotten an answer and typed it in, 10 answers would be pushed through that were identical to hers but hers wasn’t pushed through, and she would get discouraged. Other times, she took the time to carefully format with LaTeX, and 1-2 answers would be pushed through without formatting before she could finish. I never could discern a pattern to what was pushed through and what wasn’t, or to the length of time given to respond.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Jackie

[SeaConquest]

I just wish they'd just get rid of that G-d-forsaken text-based format altogether. I mean, this isn't 1997. How hard is it to implement Canvas or Moodle or GoToMeeting? What about the kids that need a little audio/visual stimulation? I know the classes sell out each time, but Square, have their been any discussions about changing the format to something more appropriate for a wider variety of learning styles? That would be at the top of my AoPS wishlist, along with financial aid.

[daijobu]

Square:  are the long wait times between posting due to waiting for TAs to help struggling students?  It seems like there can be a lot of down time between teacher posts.  

[Rush]

21 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

I meant, is the class offered at any other time? 

 

16 hours ago, mathnerd said:

They offer another session in May for Intro to Algebra.

DS asked me to enrol for Clover Creek Physics next year and by the rules he has to finish Algebra 1 before the beginning of the course. Plus we wanted to go for a short break between those two courses.

 

oh, well. I feel a bit sad as I think this online class is brilliant and it could fit my kid perfectly, and i really hope that one day they offer better suitable time for Europeans 😥

[mathnerd]

On 4/6/2019 at 2:58 PM, HomeForNow said:

The class is a live event where the students needs to be thinking about maths and responding in real time. I watch DS taking the classes, so I can see how he is doing. I would only pay for books and not courses if he were not going to do the live classes in real time.

 

 

AOPS online classes are good if you are in a hurry to finish a course/level. For e.g. Intro to Algebra book can be completed online in a timeframe of 32 weeks (both Alg A and Alg B together). AOPS compresses the content in the online classes. Even my very motivated learner could not complete that book in 32 weeks. That is alright in our case because we use multiple sources and are not in a hurry to apply to any special programs, but, at some point, it would help us to have transcripts and a faster pace running through the curricula, which is when I would switch to their online class format. 

Using just the textbooks and self-studying at home, your son can work through all the problems in the review and challenge sections and spend more time on each chapter if he wants. I believe that the online classes offer a selection of problems from the book and some others from math contests etc.

Edited April 17, 2019 by mathnerd

[Rush]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

 

Last I checked, the problems in the online classes were pretty disjoint from the textbook (since the textbook gives solutions, and we don't want to encourage cheating.) 

So you mean it is more wider than just a book program? 

[mathnerd]

12 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Last I checked, the problems in the online classes were pretty disjoint from the textbook (since the textbook gives solutions, and we don't want to encourage cheating.) 

That is good to know. Are the online homework problems harder than the textbook review/challenge sections, in your opinion?

(I am wondering if there are advantages to repeating a course online after having gone through the textbook and worked out the problems at home.)

[lewelma]

The problem with the compression of the class, is that some of kids don't learn all the content.  My ds said that he knew certain students who could only do the work with hints, and once the hints were given, the course became like a standard course rather than a discovery course.  In his experience, a discovery course makes you work longer on problems so that fewer are required to master the content; whereas a standard course requires less thinking and more drill to master the content.  He said that when he was taking AoPS, that he knew a number of kids that were going to retake multiple courses because they knew that they had not mastered the content with the first pass through because they had converted a discovery based course to a standard course by needing multiple hints on all problems.  And because a discovery course does not offer a standard amount of drill, they did not master the content. He got the impression that some of these kids were very young, and it was a status symbol to be doing high level AoPS courses. Basically, he felt like kids needed to put in the time to keep a discovery course a discovery course. DS spent 10 hours per week at least in each class, and he is pretty high level. 

As for the text based format, my ds loved it.  He had no interest in staring at a teacher, or listening to kids talk.  He just absolutely loved the courses and took intermediate algebra, number theory, and combinatorics; olympiad geometry, precalc, and calc. He never ever felt that the text format was old fashioned. Rather, it allowed him to work at his own pace.  If he got things way faster than everyone else, he could either do another problem, go to the bathroom, chat with me, or whatever.  He didn't have to sit there listening to a teacher go at too slow a speed.  It is a brilliant format for what they are teaching for the range of students they are teaching.

Edited April 18, 2019 by lewelma

[madteaparty]

AOPS didn’t work for us, so take with a grain of salt, but the online classes REALLY didn’t work worst of all 🙂 I think DS would get discouraged with the “shouting” of the answer before he’d had a chance, and in any event he didn’t retain anything, class or book wise. The online chat format is another thing to hate. Anyway if you’re comfortable with the books, and keeping your student on schedule, I don’t see what a class would add to the experience. I guess that’s the one positive of the class...it’s organized to keep the student on track. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by madteaparty

[SeaConquest]

21 hours ago, Rush said:

 

DS asked me to enrol for Clover Creek Physics next year and by the rules he has to finish Algebra 1 before the beginning of the course. Plus we wanted to go for a short break between those two courses.

 

oh, well. I feel a bit sad as I think this online class is brilliant and it could fit my kid perfectly, and i really hope that one day they offer better suitable time for Europeans 😥

 

Rush, Sacha is taking Clover Creek Physics next year and he's only had AoPS PA. We just supplemented his Algebra skills with the first part of the CTY/Thinkwell Honors Algebra course (before we dropped it -- waaaaay too many problems) and selected problem sets from Dolciani and Jacobs Algebra. I really don't think you need to have completed AoPS Algebra in order to take the course (mine will also be taking AoPS Algebra at the Academy concurrently, which is 36 weeks, and includes C&P) -- just any Algebra course. I think the point is just to be able to solve physics equations using algebra. You might email Jetta to see what specific algebra skills are required to be successful in the course, but AoPS Algebra skills are overkill IMHO. 

[SeaConquest]

10 hours ago, lewelma said:

The problem with the compression of the class, is that some of kids don't learn all the content.  My ds said that he knew certain students who could only do the work with hints, and once the hints were given, the course became like a standard course rather than a discovery course.  In his experience, a discovery course makes you work longer on problems so that fewer are required to master the content; whereas a standard course requires less thinking and more drill to master the content.  He said that when he was taking AoPS, that he knew a number of kids that were going to retake multiple courses because they knew that they had not mastered the content with the first pass through because they had converted a discovery based course to a standard course by needing multiple hints on all problems.  And because a discovery course does not offer a standard amount of drill, they did not master the content. He got the impression that some of these kids were very young, and it was a status symbol to be doing high level AoPS courses. Basically, he felt like kids needed to put in the time to keep a discovery course a discovery course. DS spent 10 hours per week at least in each class, and he is pretty high level. 

As for the text based format, my ds loved it.  He had no interest in staring at a teacher, or listening to kids talk.  He just absolutely loved the courses and took intermediate algebra, number theory, and combinatorics; olympiad geometry, precalc, and calc. He never ever felt that the text format was old fashioned. Rather, it allowed him to work at his own pace.  If he got things way faster than everyone else, he could either do another problem, go to the bathroom, chat with me, or whatever.  He didn't have to sit there listening to a teacher go at too slow a speed.  It is a brilliant format for what they are teaching for the range of students they are teaching.

 

As I recall, your son was a bit "older" when took those courses. From my perspective, working with a relatively young kid, I don't think he really gets the whole "discovery method" thing yet. I'm not sure that he really understand that that's what happening. I see it, you see it, your son saw it, but I think it's a math/overall maturity thing. I am not sure that my son really has the mathematical maturity yet to really get it. At this point in his math career with AoPS, he has only really done (that he remembers), BA online and now the AoPS Academy online format, so he's never done any of the problems in the textbooks, and I don't think he really "gets" how to use the textbook yet. He goes to his academy lectures, and if he cant figure out how to do a problem, he will struggle through it for awhile and then call me. He may remember to look at the videos, but he will never look at the message boards (which are not really used in his class) and he will never look to the textbook (which is always the first thing I will grab). As he gets older, I assume that he will learn how to learn from a textbook, but (at 10) he is just not there yet.

Edited April 18, 2019 by SeaConquest

[SeaConquest]

50 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

I do "discovery method" with my (accelerated) 6.5 year old. I think it requires one-on-one helping at this age, since they aren't great at using the resources. For me, it just means she figures out the patterns and rules herself (with hints and help along the way), as opposed to me giving them to her. But I'm not sure if people use the words "discovery method" for something different than what I tend to mean. 

 

I think that was true when I was more hands on with him, in the early days of BA, but before he was at the Academy and BA online came out. I guess, once I started shelling out the $$$$ for the live instruction, I became a lot more hands off. He also became a lot more independent just naturally. I mean, he's basically doing the entire Python class himself now. I can't help him with that stuff at all. So, yes, when it was him and I reading the BA books together, I could guide him, but now that he's more independent, he's still not yet at the point that he's getting it from the textbook. Hopefully, he's getting it from the lectures. I hope!

[HomeForNow]

AoPS email "Coming Soon: Self-Paced Courses"

https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/7-accelerated-learner-board/

 

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 

As I recall, your son was a bit "older" when took those courses. From my perspective, working with a relatively young kid, I don't think he really gets the whole "discovery method" thing yet. I'm not sure that he really understand that that's what happening. I see it, you see it, your son saw it, but I think it's a math/overall maturity thing. I am not sure that my son really has the mathematical maturity yet to really get it. At this point in his math career with AoPS, he has only really done (that he remembers), BA online and now the AoPS Academy online format, so he's never done any of the problems in the textbooks, and I don't think he really "gets" how to use the textbook yet. He goes to his academy lectures, and if he cant figure out how to do a problem, he will struggle through it for awhile and then call me. He may remember to look at the videos, but he will never look at the message boards (which are not really used in his class) and he will never look to the textbook (which is always the first thing I will grab). As he gets older, I assume that he will learn how to learn from a textbook, but (at 10) he is just not there yet.

It does take time to learn how to learn math in a discovery style.  I think this is why my ds took 3 years to get through the Intro A book.  During this time, he was learning so much more than algebra, he was learning problem solving, technical reading skills, requirements for mathematical proof, metacognition, effectively learning from solutions, etc. This plus time management, attention, persistence, etc. Once he learned all that, he was ready to move very quickly.  You asked about his ages, and this is what I remember

9-12 Intro A - self teaching with textbook

12-13.5 Intro Geomentry, Number Theory, Combinatorics - self teaching with textbooks

13.5 - 15.5 Intermediate combinatorics, intermediate number theory, intermediate algebra, Olympiad geometry, and precalculus - done through classes. 

His impression at the time was that there a number of younger kids who were quite braggy about their young ages who really couldn't do the work. There was more than one kid who stated on the board that he was going to loop back around and do all the classes again. It just made me think about the pressure to move quickly through math as a goal.  The race to calculus and all that.  But here it was the race through AoPS, like that was somehow the goal, rather than actually learning the content.  Get an 'A' because you had a ton of help, move on to the next class. But this only works for so long, when it catches up with you.

[lewelma]

11 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, that's fair. It's very compressed. 

I'd agree with your about the AoPS discovery method, but I don't think "a small number of hard problems" is necessarily what I think about when I think "discovery method." And in my experience, it wasn't exactly not putting in the hours for some of the kids: it's more that kids like your son know what it means to understand math and to make it their own, and some kids don't. And what they need isn't just more drill, but more explicit focus on what it MEANS to fully understand math. As I've mentioned before, precalc is the one I've been experimenting with, and there's definitely a range of what one can do within the format. 

Well, this goes back to a conversation we had a few weeks ago.  In my experience, there are 2 types of learners. My ds is concepts first, algorithms second learner.  I'm an algorithm first, concepts second learner.  When my ds uses the discovery approach to learn math, it takes him way longer to get through even just a few problems.  He has to try this, and that, loop back around for a different tactic, wait a day, try something new, ruminate, and finally solve it.  With that much work, all from the ground up, he really *knows* the concepts, and rarely needs to do more than just one related problem just to make sure.  In contrast, I can't learn anything that way.  It is like wandering blind in a dark room and bumping into things.  Instead, I get direct teaching of the concept. I then do problem after problem after problem (drill) and over time start to notice patterns, The patterns I can then confirm when I do even more problems, and eventually I get to the point my ds has gotten to and understand the concepts deeply.  And it often takes about the same amount of time.

Both of these approaches can fail.  With the discovery approach, if you are told how to do the problem at first and don't fight to figure it out on your own, you don't internalize the concepts because you didn't discover them and thus deeply understand it conceptually.  Then with very few extra problems, nothing sinks in.  This is what my ds noticed with some kids who were trying to do AoPS with way too many hints.

My direct teaching approach can fail if the student only drills and never looks for patterns to confirm so that she can develop a deep understanding.  This is where metacognition comes in.  Do I actually deeply understand this algorithm? or am I only able to manipulate numbers and equations?  This is what teachers often worry about with direct teaching programs, and what people were discussing in your thread a couple of weeks ago. 

 

And apparently my inbox is full, so I'll go clean it out!

Edited April 19, 2019 by lewelma

[SeaConquest]

5 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Maybe some lessons on HOW to use the textbook and what to do when stuck would be a good idea. I know I've taught lots of college kids who really had no idea how to use a math textbook. For example, following examples from class is a really good idea (and working them without checking the answers if you're stuck is, too.) Looking up formulas is not really a great first step. Trying some small numbers (for certain kinds of questions) is an excellent tool. 

What class is he taking, and what kinds of questions is he getting stuck on? 

 

Oh, I show him how to use the textbook, and I model that that is the first thing that I turn to -- especially since the problems say explicitly look at problem X in the textbook (and it has been FOREVER since I have done any math). He is currently in PA, but finishing up the geometry section and heading into statistics and some basic counting. It's not that there is a particular kind of problem that trips him up, it's just that when he gets tripped up, he has an aversion to the textbook. It is dense and wordy and no fun for a 10 year old like BA was. I don't think he feels like he knows how to learn from it yet either. But, I do show him how I use it and model it for him. It's just going to take time.

The difference is that Lewelma's son only had the textbook for those first 3 years of algebra. He had to struggle through with it and learn how to learn from it. And all those skills he learned paid off in spades for him. Sacha hasn't really had to learn to do that yet. He has gone from doing BA mostly orally in my lap to BA online to now Academy classes with a live lecturer, separate in-class "extension" activities, and the online homework system. Like I said, when he gets stuck, he struggles with it for awhile, and then will turn on an RR video to see if it helps refresh before he calls me for help. So, the textbook is used very little, and that's a shame, but it's also a function of the fact that we've been outsourcing.  

Edited April 19, 2019 by SeaConquest

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Oh, I show him how to use the textbook, and I model that that is the first thing that I turn to -- especially since the problems say explicitly look at problem X in the textbook (and it has been FOREVER since I have done any math). He is currently in PA, but finishing up the geometry section and heading into statistics and some basic counting. It's not that there is a particular kind of problem that trips him up, it's just that when he gets tripped up, he has an aversion to the textbook. It is dense and wordy and no fun for a 10 year old like BA was. I don't think he feels like he knows how to learn from it yet either. But, I do show him how I use it and model it for him. It's just going to take time.

The difference is that Lewelma's son only had the textbook for those first 3 years of algebra. He had to struggle through with it and learn how to learn from it. And all those skills he learned paid off in spades for him. Sacha hasn't really had to learn to do that yet. He has gone from doing BA mostly orally in my lap to BA online to now Academy classes with a live lecturer, separate in-class "extension" activities, and the online homework system. Like I said, when he gets stuck, he struggles with it for awhile, and then will turn on an RR video to see if it helps refresh before he calls me for help. So, the textbook is used very little, and that's a shame, but it's also a function of the fact that we've been outsourcing.  

When PreA first came out, I was quite critical of its very wordy approach.  It took many many more pages to cover the same content as the first 5 chapters of IntroA.  However, I backed off of my negative critique given how many people here love the book, but your comments make me think of my original impressions.  My son took a full year to get through 4.5 chapters of IntroA, basically the same content that PreA covers in the algebra strand. But it was much more compact.  This allowed him to spend more time on discovering the math and less time on the reading, and it meant that he really did not have to read much each day. I don't have the book in front of me, but he did about 2 pages a week I think. We school year round so he would have spent 45 weeks, 2 hours per day, and I think the first chapters are about 90 pages.  This felt very doable to ds as little kid, whereas the same content presented in PreA would not have been. That book is LONG and most kids cover it in just over a year. If they are reading it independently, they are reading way more than my son did every day.  My impression from reading here is that most parents do the book *with* their kids, so will often read the text to them. 

The skill of reading math is definitely a skill that must be developed slowly over time.  DS taught himself (which I think is unusual especially given he was 9), and I think most kids need guidance and encouragement and clear goals to master it.  I am still working with ds15 to help him be able to read a math text. Out of all the students I have tutored, there has really only been 1 who could do this. The rest relied on explanations by me, their teacher, or a video. I think that the availability of videos now really undermines learning to read mathematical text. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by lewelma

[Jackie]

My very young kid adores the discovery method, and will cite the fact that the book gives problems before teaching how to do them as one of the reasons she most loves AOPS. Really, even though working straight from the book isn’t the best fit for her, either, she now starts each topic with the opening questions from the book section so that she gets the “leading discovery questions” from the book before she breaks off to Alcumus or directly to challenging problems.

The online class was a bust for her for multiple reasons. It really seems to me that the kids who would do best with the all-text format of the classes would be the kids who would also do the best with the all-text format of the book. Maybe this is great for matching classes to the kids who are already thriving with the books, but it seems a wasted opportunity to me. The classes could be used to pull in the kids who don’t thrive with just the books. It wouldn’t even take something especially more interactive. At the most minimal end, one tone when answers were pushed through, and a different tone when a new question was asked, would at least be a prompt for my kid to tune back in after she spaced out waiting for answers to be posted. Much better for her would be audio/video from the instructor; responses or questions from students could still be text-based.

I agree from what I saw in her class that the kids who were treating it like a standard class, instead of doing the discovery questions first, were missing out. It seems as though it took away the AOPS flavor. On the other hand, my kid usually “got” the full concept from the discovery questions in the book and Alcumus, so all the weekly homework problems beyond that just felt like busywork to her. And when the instructor did lead through in a discovery-based manner, the class was only repeating what she had already done independently with the book, so a complete waste of time.

[SoCal_Bear]

Sometimes, you might be surprised at whether or not a student rises to the challenge. I was prepared for PA to take 18 months for my DS. I was pretty hands off with it as he demonstrated that he was comfortable with self-teaching with the book. He only asked for help on a few of the challenge problems and was able to work it through when I asked him to think about x or y as a hint. He worked at his own pace and finished the book in 10 months. He did every single problem in that monster. He was 9/10 when he did it. We are on a bit of a break doing Jacobs MHE right now which he is also self-teaching. I think he's grown a lot through the process and learning to read a dense text and really thrived with the discovery approach. I'm not certain if we will continue with AOPS beyond Algebra because I'm not sure how much time he really wants to vest into math. These discussions make me wonder if he is the type of student that should continue with AOPS because of how PA went. The amount of time though is a big deterrant unless somehow PA is a predicator of how much time latter courses take. I already know that we won't be doing AOPS geometry. He's just not fond of geometry, so we will be detouring to Jacobs for that. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by calbear

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Well, I know, but I don’t exactly agree with you ;-). I think some people do require more examples than others to operate with (although I think kids who do hard problems in some sense create enough examples themselves out of a single problem), but I prefer those examples not to be algorithmic drill. But yes, I think most kids do benefit from some direct teaching. And the classes are aimed at kids who do prefer being taught.

I also haven’t taught classes aimed at the younger kids. I do think the format is way better suited for age 12-13 and up than for younger kids.

I think this is an important point. By the time the kids get to you in pre-calc, they've self-selected quite a bit to the format of those classes. So, even among our mathiest kids, you're only seeing that segment who have been able to keep up with the pace of the online classes and can deal with the all-text format. You're also seeing kids who have grown a huge amount in their mathematical maturity from when they first started AoPS with PA. 

[daijobu]

@square_25  Do you get the sense that some % of your students have already taken a class at the B&M school, and are taking it again at AoPS for extra challenge?  

[Jackie]

6 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Well, I know, but I don’t exactly agree with you ;-). I think some people do require more examples than others to operate with (although I think kids who do hard problems in some sense create enough examples themselves out of a single problem), but I prefer those examples not to be algorithmic drill. But yes, I think most kids do benefit from some direct teaching. And the classes are aimed at kids who do prefer being taught.

I also haven’t taught classes aimed at the younger kids. I do think the format is way better suited for age 12-13 and up than for younger kids.

 

Lol, I’m well above that age range and found the all-text format at least as miserable as my kid did. She and I have pretty different learning styles, and it wouldn’t work for either one of us.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Jackie

[SeaConquest]

33 minutes ago, Jackie said:

 

Lol, I’m well above that age range and found the all-text format at least as miserable as my kid did. She and I have pretty different learning styles, and it wouldn’t work for either one of us.

 

I'm with you. If I had to endure it, I suppose that I could. But, it certainly would not be my preferred method of instruction, and I say this as someone who has a lot of experience with distance learning modalities. I've never encountered any other all text-based program like AoPS. Can some extremely bright students manage it? Sure. But, IMHO, it is not the best way to teach the vast majority of students (regardless of age). 

Edited April 19, 2019 by SeaConquest

[SeaConquest]

42 minutes ago, daijobu said:

@square_25  Do you get the sense that some % of your students have already taken a class at the B&M school, and are taking it again at AoPS for extra challenge?  

 

I can say that, at the SD Academy location, and I would imagine the other locations as well, the demographic is almost entirely public and private afterschoolers taking these classes for extra challenge or (more likely, I think) accelerating so that they can compete in math competitions and, by the time they take the classes in their regular schools, get a very high grade with relatively little effort.

[Arcadia]

23 minutes ago, square_25 said:

What did you dislike about the text format? 

 

When DS13 was much younger, he learned better through audio than text because his listening speed was much higher than reading speed, and he didn’t have the maturity to be patient when reading. Then reading speed caught up and he likes text only or audio only, video format to him is a nice distraction. Kind of like choosing between watching a TEDtalk or reading the transcript, he would rather read the transcript. 

There was also the issue that since DS13 was a slower worker, the answers/solutions were given in the online class before he had finish working through the questions. (ETA: maturity issue)

Edited April 19, 2019 by Arcadia

[mathnerd]

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, age 12-13 is when I’d expect the format to start working. I know some kids manage at younger ages, but I expect they are the exception and not the rule.

I’d also much rather read transcripts than watch or listen! It’s faster and I can go back if I need to.

Anyway, to each their own :-). From my perspective as a teacher, I’ve gotten very fond of the format and the access to my students’ thinking it gives! But I can totally see it doesn’t work for everyone.

So true! My son absolutely cannot handle Khan academy and various TED talks for the reason that there is so much talk and audio distraction which diverts him from focusing on the content. He prefers something uncluttered which is purely text based (even mom hovering around during a class to see if he needed any help is a distraction) so that he can get his maximum focus going. 

[Jackie]

10 hours ago, square_25 said:

What did you dislike about the text format? The idea is to give you space to think about the ideas. I know I’ve never been able to follow a math lecture in real life and this would have worked better for me, since I’d have time to think without distractions.

 

For me, the book itself gives that space to think about the ideas, and the classes recommend that students work through the book before class. The classes shouldn’t be a rehash of the book. If they are, then they should stop advising that students work through the book first, because that just bores the students who follow that instruction. Text-based simply appeals to one learning preference. Some people learn best by direct instruction, some by video, some with manipulatives, some with talking concepts through; there are so many ways to learn. I learn some by reading, but I rarely fully internalize a concept that way.

For me, it’s about getting to discover and play on my own, which is unlikely to happen in any online class. My kid learns by hearing a concept talked through: a verbal/audio explanation of a concept, questioning (doesn’t matter if questions are in audio or text format), and verbal/audio responses - basically she learns when the format is a conversational style, even if the conversation itself is modified to fit a class style. And she’s a more auditory learner than I am. She loves audiobooks and listening to lectures, whereas I have no idea why anyone would like such things.

[Cake and Pi]

And see, the text-based classes are a good fit for my 11yo and an excellent fit for my 7yo, for the time being, at least.

I think DS#1 would like it if there were audio, like if the text were read aloud to him, but he has extreme social anxiety and would not want to talk or have his name/username called out for any reason in the classroom. Text and whispers are good! He says he reads the book before class, but he doesn't really. He just looks through it, reads the highlighted boxes, and watches some of the videos. He depends on the in-class instruction.

DS#3 has issues with auditory input. He does the exploratory questions from the book before class but usually has no interest in the videos. There are different examples done in class, sometimes in totally different ways than what was shown in the book, and it keeps his attention for the most part. He lasts about an hour, anyway, then usually wonders off or ends up hanging upside down in his chair. The long pauses after the instructor asks a question work out well for him because he's not a very fast reader and is still very slow at typing. He also often does the assigned reading 2 or more weeks before the class that goes over them, so the class essentially becomes a useful review.

*I'm* thankful that his classmates cannot tell how young he is and that his off-topic/spam-like comments are not shared with the class. There was a recent pre-class discussion where everyone was sharing what grade they were in, mostly 6th-7th, someone mentioned that there was a *genius* 3rd grader in their Prealgebra class the previous term. I had to stop DS#3 from telling them that he was supposed to be in 1st grade but earned two grade skips and got to be in 3rd grade instead. Yeah, no social awareness there.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Cake and Pi

[SanDiegoMom]

11 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Yeah, it sounds like it's not a good fit for her. About reading the book, though: that's generally good advice, even when lecture is a rehash of the book. It doesn't really matter while the material is easy, and I never needed to do this in middle school or high school. But by college, I rather regretted not having gotten in the habit of reading the book before the class. If the material is challenging, seeing it before really helps you make sense of the teaching. 

 

My son didn't need to pre-read until Intermediate Algebra-- and then he only did it a few times.  But as the class seemed to go much faster than his previous ones (or there was more information to cover, or the information was in much bigger text chunks) so he found he needed to have a little familiarity with the concepts beforehand to be able to keep up. 

[Rush]

On 4/18/2019 at 7:25 PM, SeaConquest said:

 

Rush, Sacha is taking Clover Creek Physics next year and he's only had AoPS PA. We just supplemented his Algebra skills with the first part of the CTY/Thinkwell Honors Algebra course (before we dropped it -- waaaaay too many problems) and selected problem sets from Dolciani and Jacobs Algebra. I really don't think you need to have completed AoPS Algebra in order to take the course (mine will also be taking AoPS Algebra at the Academy concurrently, which is 36 weeks, and includes C&P) -- just any Algebra course. I think the point is just to be able to solve physics equations using algebra. You might email Jetta to see what specific algebra skills are required to be successful in the course, but AoPS Algebra skills are overkill IMHO. 

Great! Then I guess they will be together :)

According to Jetta DS has to finish Algebra 1 AOPS, so we are trying to cover it. 

By the way in the end we decided to switch completely to our online private tutor,  the one with who DS was doing competitive maths for a few months during this scholastic year, but they will follow the AOPS program. For us its almost the same cost, but it will be more intensive and he teaches my kid to think, not just to solve. They will finish Algebra 1 by August and on the top Ds is also reading Jacobs Algebra and he has finished Life of Fred till Advance Algebra. I guess it will be more than enough :)

Thank you for everyone's input and reminding me about pros of live sessions. Much appreciated👍 😉

[TheAttachedMama]

Personally, I thnk the book is SO well written that you don't really need the online class.   The solutions are really, really nice too.   (I've never seen a math book with such nice solutions written out.)   PLUS there are free online instructional videos for the Algebra book.    PLUS there is a free practice program called Alcumus available.    PLUS, if your child needs help solving one of the problems, there is a free online forum with loads of math geniuses waiting to show off their skills and give assistance.  🙂  

My 2 cents---save your money and put it towards college....or one of the more difficult upper-level math classes.   

[Rush]

8 hours ago, TheAttachedMama said:

Personally, I thnk the book is SO well written that you don't really need the online class.   The solutions are really, really nice too.   (I've never seen a math book with such nice solutions written out.)   PLUS there are free online instructional videos for the Algebra book.    PLUS there is a free practice program called Alcumus available.    PLUS, if your child needs help solving one of the problems, there is a free online forum with loads of math geniuses waiting to show off their skills and give assistance.  🙂  

My 2 cents---save your money and put it towards college....or one of the more difficult upper-level math classes.   

I agree with you. Ds did pre-algebra AOPS completely on his own. I was only checking his answers.

Unfortunately now time is changing and he needs more time structured courses/lessons and preferably not with me. He is very talented in maths, but it is far from his favourite subject and he need a good motivator or a mentor, who can make it more fun for him to learn. I am not mathematician and I cannot give that way his tutor can do. Beside the intro to algebra aops book is still being done individually, but the tutor mostly fills the holes and still concentrating on the Olympiad maths. This way instead of 2 different courses we have one program with less fees. Everyone is happy, ds is enjoying and gets a huge motivation to continue :)

[whangty]

Is it correct to think that the online class could be more helpful with more advanced classes (e.g. intermediate classes and beyond)?   My son has taken following online classes: prealgebra b, intro to algebra a & b, intro to cp, and currently intro to geometry.   However, for financial reasons, I am asking him to study the intermediate algebra and other intermediate classes/books on his own in the future.   While I like to think that he can successfully study these classes/books on his own (since he has been pretty good at being an independent learner thus far), I cannot help but feel that online classes could make the learning easier and more fun.   

What do you think?   Would my son be missing out a lot by not taking online intermediate classes and instead studying them on his own?   For example, my son told me that there is no book for intermediate number theory class.  Also, I suppose there is no book that one can study in place of "WOOT."  What might be pros and cons of online class vs. self-study at intermediate level and beyond?  

Thx. much in advance for your response.  

Edited May 27, 2019 by whangty
clarity

[HomeForNow]

12 hours ago, whangty said:

Is it correct to think that the online class could be more helpful with more advanced classes (e.g. intermediate classes and beyond)?   My son has taken following online classes: prealgebra b, intro to algebra a & b, intro to cp, and currently intro to geometry.   However, for financial reasons, I am asking him to study the intermediate algebra and other intermediate classes/books on his own in the future.   While I like to think that he can successfully study these classes/books on his own (since he has been pretty good at being an independent learner thus far), I cannot help but feel that online classes could make the learning easier and more fun.   

What do you think?   Would my son be missing out a lot by not taking online intermediate classes and instead studying them on his own?   For example, my son told me that there is no book for intermediate number theory class.  Also, I suppose there is no book that one can study in place of "WOOT."  What might be pros and cons of online class vs. self-study at intermediate level and beyond?  

Thx. much in advance for your response.  

 

For the classes which do have a textbook, the class is not essential. For us, we do the classes because the structure helps to keep DS on track, and also I can observe DS doing the live class and see that he is getting it (95% of the time - and the other 5% I can follow up on).

[whangty]

22 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

I think it depends on your comfort level with the material. Will you be able to help out if he gets stuck? The nice thing about the classes is you get a community of peers and teachers who are engaging with the same material and can keep you on track. 

Unfortunately, at intermediate level, I don't think I can be of much help.   Even in majority of intro classes to be honest, I have not been of much help to my son in spite of my engineering background.  This is precisely one of my main concerns: the more advanced the class gets, the more help my son would need from the AoPS resources offered via online class.  

[mathnerd]

The courses with no textbooks have to be done with aops online or at their academy, obviously. But, for those with textbooks, there are very well written solutions manuals available as well, so, it is possible to learn by self study. In our case, the reason that we would use online classes is because they take a lot lesser time than when it is done by self study.

[whangty]

52 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

The courses with no textbooks have to be done with aops online or at their academy, obviously. But, for those with textbooks, there are very well written solutions manuals available as well, so, it is possible to learn by self study. In our case, the reason that we would use online classes is because they take a lot lesser time than when it is done by self study.

Thank you for your response.   However, my hunch is that as the classes become more advanced (intermediate level and beyond), the help offered from online class may become more helpful or even necessary, esp. for younger students who are trying to learn advanced materials.   For example, my son is in intro to geo online currently.   He was self-studying the geo book on his own, but he is currently stuck in chapter 7, although I think given enough time he can still do chapter 7 on his own.   Glad that he will have the online class to help him when they hit chapter 7 in a couple of weeks.   So, for intermediate algebra, I am concerned that the same scenario may repeat.   My son is a rising 6th grader.

Edited May 28, 2019 by whangty

[daijobu]

Geometry Chapter 7 with all the triangle centers is indeed tricky.  I would suggest to him that he frequently review each center, so he can quickly do a back of the envelope derivation of the properties of each one and why: median, orthocenter, incenter, circumcenter.  It gets confusing, and I thought it was the most difficult chapter in the book.  

My kids never used the online classes for the "core" math classes, but I am pretty strong in math, so I was heavily involved in the teaching.  They used the online classes for the elective courses prepping for AMC and MathCounts.  

[Arcadia]

On 5/28/2019 at 1:41 PM, whangty said:

   He was self-studying the geo book on his own, but he is currently stuck in chapter 7, although I think given enough time he can still do chapter 7 on his own.   Glad that he will have the online class to help him when they hit chapter 7 in a couple of weeks. 

 

Your son can post his problem here https://artofproblemsolving.com/community/c71_aops_books

Edited May 30, 2019 by Arcadia
Deleted TMI

[kiwik]

On 4/19/2019 at 11:04 AM, HomeForNow said:

AoPS email "Coming Soon: Self-Paced Courses"

https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/7-accelerated-learner-board/

 

Ds12 has been a tester on the first two versions of this.  He really likes the current semi-interactive self paced lessons.  I am hoping the next one becomes available quickly.