Curfews for young adults

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, OKBud said:

If coming through the front door is inherently disruptive because of house layout, is there a back door? (you don't need to answer, just thinking "aloud")

No. And really I can handle the coming home noise. I just need to know when it is going to be. 

[TechWife]

Have you talked to your doctor about your difficulty sleeping? 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Have you talked to your doctor about your difficulty sleeping? 

Yes and he said make the teens come home at 12. 😂😂

j/k

I have stuff to help me sleep but I am trying very hard to avoid it. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I find it bizarre that you think a person needs psychological help because they want to be able to sleep at night in their own home. 

 

Whether or not Regentrude was right, it seems clear that she suggested therapy because she feels you are too anxious about your son keeping normal hours for a young man, not because you "want to be able to sleep at night".

At any rate, you can't actually control your son anymore, because he's an adult. And despite what you say about how nobody "needs to" stay out past eleven, he clearly wants to do so in order to spend time with your friends. Yes, we know you feel he spends "enough time" with his friends, but he clearly disagrees, and so do all his friends. What he wants is important too.

Your options are these:

1. Get over it, with or without help. Learn to let things go.

2. Talk to him openly and come to a compromise - perhaps a 1am curfew on weeknights, and he loops you into his plans on weekends? - where you actually *compromise* and agree that you'll both be a little unhappy with the solution. Sorry, an eleven pm curfew, which none of his friends abide by anyway, is just not reasonable. Doesn't matter how much you want it or think you need it, compromise means you both have to give a little.

3. You make a plan to help him move into his own space by a set date.

Those are your options. "Make everybody at the WTM forums agree with me that my son is unreasonable, and then he has to come home at eleven" is not an option. We're not going to do that, he's not going to do that, it's not an option.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Tanaqui

[TechWife]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Yes and he said make the teens come home at 12. 😂😂

j/k

I have stuff to help me sleep but I am trying very hard to avoid it. 

Then that is a choice you are making. Choosing not to take a sleep aid is a valid choice, but don’t penalize your son for your choice. I’m being sincere when I say I think you’ll outgrow this need to be awake until he gets home, but I really do think so, because it’s necessary for your long term health and to respect their autonomy, too. Until then, you can use something to help you sleep if you want to. 

[Shoeless]

36 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

Jah and this kind of friction is super normal. Super necessary, maybe even. Just on a biological level, most people start feeling the need for their own space. Their own timetable that is unaccountable to someone else. And...sadly, sniff.... the kids stop being our little ones and start being, as you say Scarlet, "some 19 year old man" lol. A friend of mine told me that your sons stop smelling like your kids at a certain age. It's an animal thing. I totally buy it. 

 

It's very normal.  I remember this struggle with my own parents so well.  They took it SO personally when I made different choices from them, including staying out later than they thought was "necessary".  

[Scarlett]

16 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Then that is a choice you are making. Choosing not to take a sleep aid is a valid choice, but don’t penalize your son for your choice. I’m being sincere when I say I think you’ll outgrow this need to be awake until he gets home, but I really do think so, because it’s necessary for your long term health and to respect their autonomy, too. Until then, you can use something to help you sleep if you want to. 

So you think i should take medicine so that my son can come in anytime he wants?  I strongly disagree.  I think the 19 year can respect his 53 year old mother enough to be home as agreed upon.  His choice is to respect that agreement or find a different place to live.  

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Like. Maybe? 

Taking something to sleep makes the problem so much worse for me. As in, my body still wakes me up when I expect DH home, through the haze of the sleeping aid, and then I can not possibly hope to get back to sleep. And feel much worse the next day, because the medicine "tried" to work all night and wouldn't because it's a physical reaction to the expectation of needing to be up.

In any case, Scarlet, you're not going to get any useful advice lol. Those who don't have bodies that do this assume you have a mental or emotional problem and those that get it know that there's no advice to give outside of practical things like fans and back doors. 

Take solace in how temporary the situation clearly is!  He's on his way up and out!! I bet it's really weird, going through all these little steps to independence from the other side. When you're the kid, it all seems so obvious 😁 

 

Yes about the sleep aid and how much worse it is. Ugh.  I hate it.  

I have received several helpful posts here and a lot of the normal disagreement.  It is actually help to see who disagrees with me.  To me it is like, ‘oh well, if that person disagrees then my feelings must be right for me’. 

[Tanaqui]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So you think i should take medicine so that my son can come in anytime he wants?  I strongly disagree.  I think the 19 year can respect his 53 year old mother enough to be home as agreed upon.  His choice is to respect that agreement or find a different place to live.  

 

HAS he agreed upon this with both you and your husband?

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Then I would really work towards "you need to let us know when to expect you home" as opposed to "you need to be home by the time I tell you to be."  And emphasize that you and your DH do each other the courtesy of letting each other now about when you will be home, so by having him give you that same sort of info, you really aren't expecting anything that you don't expect out of any other adult in the house.   And it's not about managing where he's going or what he's doing, it's just about having all the information needed to manage your own expectations.  

Except he is an envelope pusher.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

 

HAS he agreed upon this with both you and your husband?

Yes of course.  We told him we expect this among a few other things to live here.  He agreed. 

[Shoeless]

@OKBudMaybe not a bad thing, but I do think it's important to disengage a little once the "kids" become adults.  My father and stepmother took everything so flippin' personally, (with me and my half-siblings), and it led to very hurt feelings for the parents.     

Edited April 2, 2019 by MissLemon

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So you think i should take medicine so that my son can come in anytime he wants?  I strongly disagree.  I think the 19 year can respect his 53 year old mother enough to be home as agreed upon.  His choice is to respect that agreement or find a different place to live.  

No. I think choosing to take a sleep aid so that you can sleep is a reasonable decision, as is choosing not to take one. I don’t think it’s reasonable to treat an adult like a child and give a curfew. Your son’s habits aren’t impacting your sleep, your expectations are. You can choose to change your expectations, in which case I think you will likely learn to sleep before he gets home, you can choose to take a sleep aid, or you can choose both. I think if you choose to make a curfew the issue, you are  possibly skirting responsibility for your own sleep habits. 

[DawnM]

No curfews.  If you are still in HS (even after 18) you need to let us know who you are with and an estimated return time.  If you will be later than that, please text and let us know.  If you are out of HS, it would be nice to have that same curtesy of knowing at least where you are going and an aprox. return time.  But over everything, be QUIET when you come home.  Let parents sleep!

[Scarlett]

26 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Whether or not Regentrude was right, it seems clear that she suggested therapy because she feels you are too anxious about your son keeping normal hours for a young man, not because you "want to be able to sleep at night".

At any rate, you can't actually control your son anymore, because he's an adult. And despite what you say about how nobody "needs to" stay out past eleven, he clearly wants to do so in order to spend time with your friends. Yes, we know you feel he spends "enough time" with his friends, but he clearly disagrees, and so do all his friends. What he wants is important too.

Your options are these:

1. Get over it, with or without help. Learn to let things go.

2. Talk to him openly and come to a compromise - perhaps a 1am curfew on weeknights, and he loops you into his plans on weekends? - where you actually *compromise* and agree that you'll both be a little unhappy with the solution. Sorry, an eleven pm curfew, which none of his friends abide by anyway, is just not reasonable. Doesn't matter how much you want it or think you need it, compromise means you both have to give a little.

3. You make a plan to help him move into his own space by a set date.

Those are your options. "Make everybody at the WTM forums agree with me that my son is unreasonable, and then he has to come home at eleven" is not an option. We're not going to do that, he's not going to do that, it's not an option.

I have no ntention of trying to get anyone to agree with me.  Certainly not a huge diverse  group of people, some of which live very different lives  from me.  I got a discussion, some people agreed, some disagreed and some were helpful and some were not.  As is normal.  

And  yes, obviously if he keeps breaking an agreement that he as an adult made then he will have to find somewhere else to live.  I think he just has to decide if he wants to give up all the perks of being supported for his freedom.  

[Farrar]

Anxiety isn't a choice. Not sleeping because you're worried about something is absolutely anxiety. You may not have the ability to "just stop," but that doesn't mean it's not your responsibility.

Not all things that we're unable to change are reasonable to force on others, even if we're the ones paying the bills.

I think one of the things you've hopefully learned from this thread is the overwhelming majority of parents - even relatively traditional leaning WTM'ers - feel that 11pm is an unreasonable curfew for an adult child who is otherwise on track with life. It's not that some people agreed and some disagreed. It's that virtually everyone disagreed except for a couple of people.

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, TechWife said:

No. I think choosing to take a sleep aid so that you can sleep is a reasonable decision, as is choosing not to take one. I don’t think it’s reasonable to treat an adult like a child and give a curfew. Your son’s habits aren’t impacting your sleep, your expectations are. You can choose to change your expectations, in which case I think you will likely learn to sleep before he gets home, you can choose to take a sleep aid, or you can choose both. I think if you choose to make a curfew the issue, you are  possibly skirting responsibility for your own sleep habits. 

Again, you are assuming I can just decide to sleep.  I cannot.  But he can very easily come home as agreed upon.  And he will likely be out on his own very soon.  

 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Anxiety isn't a choice. Not sleeping because you're worried about something is absolutely anxiety. You may not have the ability to "just stop," but that doesn't mean it's not your responsibility.

Not all things that we're unable to change are reasonable to force on others, even if we're the ones paying the bills.

I think one of the things you've hopefully learned from this thread is the overwhelming majority of parents - even relatively traditional leaning WTM'ers - feel that 11pm is an unreasonable curfew for an adult child who is otherwise on track with life. It's not that some people agreed and some disagreed. It's that virtually everyone disagreed except for a couple of people.

Yes and those are my people.  I never thought I was with the majority.  

 

And also I am not forcing anything on anyone.  If he wants to live here I ask this thing of him.  He is free to move out...with my blessing and help and good wishes.  I am not mad about that and not trying to control him.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think it's more reasonable to change your request to something that everyone in the house does, rather than create a separate envelope just for him to push.  

It isn’t a separate envelop. We expect the same thing of dss18.. 

[TechWife]

19 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Again, you are assuming I can just decide to sleep.  I cannot.  But he can very easily come home as agreed upon.  And he will likely be out on his own very soon.  

 

How would you sleep if he left the house at 8 pm and told you he would be home at 6 am? 

[Scarlett]

Just now, TechWife said:

How would you sleep if he left the house at 8 pm and told you he would be home at 6 am? 

I don’t understand what you mean how?

if I am not waiting’ for him to come home I can sleep.  

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

No. And really I can handle the coming home noise. I just need to know when it is going to be. 

 

Is there any place he can go, such as a friend ‘s where arrival after 11 is ok?  If so, rule could be to arrive home by 11pm,  or not until 6am or after.

[Scarlett]

Also dss18 does this stuff too.  Not long ago at about 11:30 on a Friday night he texted dh, ‘when do I have to be home.’   Dh was already sleeping. And also it is well known I am the one who is more likely to see a text.....so anyway, at about 12:3 I texted dss and asked him where he was.  He says, ‘I texted dad’.  So I woke dh up.....h read the text.  And told ds to get home now.  If at an earlier point in the evening he had said, hey playing board games can I come home at 1 we most likely would have said yes.  But no don’t text us after you know we are Hopeful to be asleep.  

Edited April 2, 2019 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Yeah, it's not anxiety. 

Unless I am wrong and Scarlet is experiencing something other than what I experience when I don't know when DH will be home/ when he comes home. 

 

Correct.  Not anxiety.  I am not worried about where he is or what he is doing.....I mean sometimes I worry he might have gone off the dyke...but generally it is simply that I want to know when he is coming home or if he has arrived home.  

[Farrar]

 

4 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Yeah, it's not anxiety. 

Unless I am wrong and Scarlet is experiencing something other than what I experience when I don't know when DH will be home/ when he comes home. 

 

She can't sleep because she has a "need" to know where he is despite the fact that he's objectively old enough to take care of himself. That's a very normal, very common, not necessarily worthy of seeking out therapy sort of anxiety. But it's absolutely an anxiety when you can't sleep because you need to know something like that.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Farrar said:

 

She can't sleep because she has a "need" to know where he is despite the fact that he's objectively old enough to take care of himself. That's a very normal, very common, not necessarily worthy of seeking out therapy sort of anxiety. But it's absolutely an anxiety when you can't sleep because you need to know something like that.

Again you don’t have it just right,  I don’t know where he is a lot of times. And that is fine.  He is an adult, I am not worried about him. I can sleep from 10 until 10:45 and my eyes pop open and I lay there in anticipation of him driving up. 

 

[Farrar]

In the end, obviously Scarlett can do what she likes. And I have no idea how the young man in question feels or if it's a big source of tension or just an issue she'd like resolved or if it would be a dealbreaker to him or what. But I guess for me, if the choice was have my new adult at home working/going to school and happy so he can launch well and over time vs. he has to leave over my personal needs and wants that don't have anything to do with his responsibility and growth... then it's a no brainer. But this comes back to something that has been discussed here many times and some people feel they have zero obligations to their young adults if the young adults don't do what they want.

[TechWife]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t understand what you mean how?

if I am not waiting’ for him to come home I can sleep.  

By how I meant “how well.”

If I understand you correctly, if you aren’t expecting him to come home, you can sleep.

If he were to tell you he would be home at 2 am, would you be awake until 2 am, or would you sleep and then wake around 2 am in a watchful state? What about if he were to tell you he would be home at 6 am? Where is your mental cutoff between expecting him home that night and not expecting him home? 

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, OKBud said:

 

Not a need to know where he is. A need to know when someone be walking through the door. Because your body is physiologically waiting for it. 

It's like the inverse of being startled when someone is right behind you when you didn't expect it. 

I see the distinction you're making, but I still think it's a source of anxiety.

Dh works nights. He also wakes me up when he comes in at like 4 am sometimes. I have trained my body, over time, to deal. This is beyond that, according to her.

[Ausmumof3]

I totally get it.  Dh does some light nights and I can’t sleep properly till he’s in.  A couple of times I managed to drop off and woke up completely wide awake and unable to sleep once he came home.  

I think maybe this is more of a vent and let it go thread.  There actually isn’t a solution other than time.

i also wouldn’t be taking sleep pills for it - too much risk that they permanently mess with your ability to sleep.

[scholastica]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

I see the distinction you're making, but I still think it's a source of anxiety.

Dh works nights. He also wakes me up when he comes in at like 4 am sometimes. I have trained my body, over time, to deal. This is beyond that, according to her.

Not everybody can get their body to do that, though. What a blessing for you that you could. When I get woken up in the middle of the night, it can take hours to fall back asleep, if I do at all. It’s been like this forever, despite trying everything under the sun. Enough nights like that in a short period of time and I’m wrecked in so many ways. And yes, I’ve sought medical help. 

[Farrar]

Just now, scholastica said:

Not everybody can get their body to do that, though. What a blessing for you that you could. When I get woken up in the middle of the night, it can take hours to fall back asleep, if I do at all. It’s been like this forever, despite trying everything under the sun. Enough nights like that in a short period of time and I’m wrecked in so many ways. And yes, I’ve sought medical help. 

But she's saying that noise in the house, even if it's just as loud or louder, is fine. So this is definitely psychological. This isn't just about being woken.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Yes of course.  We told him we expect this among a few other things to live here.  He agreed. 

 

This is not even a little bit in accord with what I consider "agreeing", not to the curfew and certainly not to "respect his mother enough". This does, however, sound a great deal like somebody saying "Okay, yeah" in order to get Mom off his back, without really considering what he is "agreeing" to or caring to follow through on that "agreement". If I'm wrong, great, I'm sure all problems are now solved and there's no need to worry about this ever again! Do be sure to keep us posted.

To my mind, two adults can't agree unless they both start out willing to listen. Which means that you don't go "I expect you to do this", but "I have this problem, let's see if we can find a solution that is mutually tolerable" and then, when he argues, listening to what he has to say. (And no, I don't think you were willing to listen to what he had to say if he didn't "agree" right off the bat. I think you would've said that he was being disrespectful by coming in after 11, that nobody "needs" to do the things he wants to do, that he definitely sees his friends "enough", and other statements of that ilk. I think that because I pulled those statements out of comments you've made here.)

Edited April 2, 2019 by Tanaqui

[Pen]

I don’t think it matters if it’s “anxiety” or not. 

A lot of 19 year olds are gone to adult lives or away at college, so there’s not a day to day conflict.  

I think it would probably be better to have “house rules” than young adult “curfew.” 

 

 

[Farrar]

4 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

It's physical! It's not about "being woken," it's about the inevitability of waking up. Which is slightly, but importantly, different.

I don't buy this. Things that are "in your head" can absolutely cause physical reactions - as is the case here. But if the same noises don't bother her when he's home vs. when he's not, then it's obviously not just a physical thing. Not to mention that the whole reason that she's waking is that she's sleeping more lightly because she's thinking about him and where he is.

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

I don’t think it matters if it’s “anxiety” or not. 

A lot of 19 year olds are gone to adult lives or away at college, so there’s not a day to day conflict.  

I think it would probably be better to have “house rules” than young adult “curfew.” 

 

 

If I was a 19 yo who had to be home that early, there's no way that calling it house rules instead of curfew would make a difference in how I saw it.

[teachermom2834]

Scarlett- I don’t necessarily agree with all your thoughts here but I do want to give you some commiseration that managing these young adults is difficult. 

I actually am pretty impressed by you and all the others that say that you aren’t worried about his safety or where he is and what he is doing.

I wish I could get there. Instead we have to send our 18 yos away to college.LOL. I would have a hard time with adult children under my roof. 

 

[Pen]

13 minutes ago, Farrar said:

If I was a 19 yo who had to be home that early, there's no way that calling it house rules instead of curfew would make a difference in how I saw it.

 

To me it’s significant. Perhaps because places I have been have had legal curfews .  

The term brings images of at least something where there’s a juvenile curfew law in place and where violation is considered fine and police worthy—and possibly where there have been riots or there is martial law.

This is an issue to be worked out one way or another between the family members.

[Scarlett]

26 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Why do they need a curfew and you and your DH don’t?  

Your question seems to assume these teens are equal to us in the running of this household.  I don’t agree with that.  They live here only because they are our children, recently turned adult.  They are in a very unique position that won’t be repeated in any future living arrangements they might have.  

If they were just some young adult male never in a million years would I have them live in my house. Because they are loud and want to stay out  late and not clean up after themselves.  So even though they aren’t the demographic I would choose to share a home with, I do because they are my kids and we are still in the process of helping launch them.  And now we are back to them being dependent on us and therefor they can follow our house rules if they want such help.  

[Pen]

ETA: above, word “fine” meaning penalties involving a monetary payment as opposed to jail, usually, in case of juvenile curfew laws.   Not “fine” in sense of no problem.  

[SKL]

I would call it house rules rather than a curfew.  It would be the same if she was renting out the room to a 19yo stranger - she could say "this arrangement works if you don't go in or out between 11pm and 5am, otherwise no."  It may be unconventional, but if both parties agree, I think it is fine.  The renter is free to terminate it and just never return; also free to stay elsewhere all night without permission or explanation.

[fairfarmhand]

9 minutes ago, OKBud said:

This is all actually really interesting to me. Like I said, I never thought about this until I realized that my people with ADD really did not feel the passage of time when they are wake, MUCH LESS when they are asleep. When talking about it, most NT people didn't really "get" it but they were at least open to it. But people as a rule are really resistant to the idea that the opposite can be true. 

I mean, the lines are certainly blurry! To what extent is ADD a mental problem? To what extent a physiological one? How do those two aspects of it get entwined over time? 

We could then say, of course, well let's ask the same questions of the opposite mode of sensing and interacting with the world! 

Automatically labeling either as wrong or something more specific like anxiety, though, is fully fallacious. 

That's without touching the fact that relationships are in flux, young adults are mostly ridiculous (now that I have experience with lol), and sleep is maximally important. 

😄

[Pen]

How about if the dc had legally taken up smoking as an adult, but that bothered the parents.  I think it would be reasonable to have a no smoking house rule, and if adult kids wish to smoke, it would be time to move elsewhere.  

And even if this were 40 years ago when secondhand smoke issues weren’t recognized, it would still be reasonable for the parents to have a no smoking rule— with regard to their own home.  Perhaps even if dc smoked elsewhere, but clothing infused with smoke were a problem for parents.  

 

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Pen

[DesertBlossom]

I never had a curfew growing up. The rule was "when the activity is over, you come home." Since most of my friends had curfews, that meant the activity was usually over at a reasonable time. 

Those times after high school when I was home from college I know I stayed out pretty late sometimes. But I also know my mom didn't sleep well until I was home.  

I was taught, and still believe, that staying out late without specific plans often leads to stupid choices. Kids with nothing to do, do dumb stuff. So while I definitely pushed the limits of reasonable hours, I was aware of how it affected my choices and I was aware that my choices always came with consequences, for better or worse. 

I still have a few more years before I've got young adults, but I plan to have the same vague parenting plan. 🙄 Come home when the activity is over. And remember that mom won't sleep well until you're home safe and sound, so be respectful.

[DesertBlossom]

I agree with Scarlett-- young adults living at home are not the same as young adults living on their own paying all their own expenses.  If you're mooching off your parents, you can also be expected to help around the house and be respectful. And being respectful means not worrying your parents while you're out all hours of the night being dumb. 😉

[hshibley]

9 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I agree with Scarlett-- young adults living at home are not the same as young adults living on their own paying all their own expenses.  If you're mooching off your parents, you can also be expected to help around the house and be respectful. And being respectful means not worrying your parents while you're out all hours of the night being dumb. 😉

If you feel your adult child living at home is mooching off of you then you are better off kicking them out and trying to rebuild a relationship where you both respect each other as people. 

Going out to a late movie with your stepbrother is not being out all hours being dumb. To be honest I’d be happy that my step kids got along so well. 

I have adult children. Two done with college and off on their own working one in college home for summer and breaks. We don’t have curfews for adults. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Again, you are assuming I can just decide to sleep.  I cannot.  But he can very easily come home as agreed upon.  And he will likely be out on his own very soon.  

 

With time, the right mindset, and earplugs I think you can. I know several moms of young adults who have successfully gone from being like you are now to not being bothered by their children coming in at all hours.

[Scarlett]

17 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Scarlet, tell him to tell you exactly when he's coming home and text you when he's there so you can just glance at your phone and know and go back to sleep.

 

That is a good idea. 

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, hshibley said:

If you feel your adult child living at home is mooching off of you then you are better off kicking them out and trying to rebuild a relationship where you both respect each other as people. 

Going out to a late movie with your stepbrother is not being out all hours being dumb. To be honest I’d be happy that my step kids got along so well. 

I have adult children. Two done with college and off on their own working one in college home for summer and breaks. We don’t have curfews for adults. 

It wasn’t the movie or who he was with or even how late it was.  It was the total disregard for the people he lives because he KNOWS I will wake up and not be able to sleep.  That part was definitely dumb. 

 

And I do respect my son as a person.  I believe it is he that does not respect me as a 

person.  

. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

With time, the right mindset, and earplugs I think you can. I know several moms of young adults who have successfully gone from being like you are now to not being bothered by their children coming in at all hours.

Perhaps.  But why? Why must I twist myself into a pretzel to accommodate a young man disregarding a basic house rule.