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reading push-back (both instruction and read-alouds)


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16 minutes ago, mamashark said:

Ok so I've seen this refrain repeated a couple times now - so apart from the early obvious signs of dyslexia, what am I watching for??

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here... 

Dyslexia--If you can access this free online conference in time, try the video "Dyslexia and Dysgraphia" by Rooted in Language. They had video footage as well as lots of descriptions and examples. https://homeschoolconnectexpo.com/expo/   It's hard for me to go back in time well enough to describe all that I saw in my son, but when I watched this video, it was super, super familiar. 

Grading emotion words...annoyance vs. anger vs. rage. My son would know they were all negative, but he wouldn't understand those words represented a continuum. Same with faces, body language, etc. So, if someone was annoyed with him or super angry, he just kind of assumed the worst. He wouldn't see the nuance without direct instruction. 

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20 minutes ago, mamashark said:

so it's a lot of flexibility on my part, but it gives him the practice and allows me to work with it without push-back because they are his book choices.

So your ABA tip would be to take turns making choices. A lot of ABA stuff like that is common sense. You want to be able to make some demands, so as he chills you bring in a slight demand like that so that it's not always HIS way. Life is reciprocal, with taking turns, etc. Learning to do that with books is setting him up to be able to do it with play, etc. :)

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10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Grading emotion words...annoyance vs. anger vs. rage. My son would know they were all negative, but he wouldn't understand those words represented a continuum. Same with faces, body language, etc. So, if someone was annoyed with him or super angry, he just kind of assumed the worst. He wouldn't see the nuance without direct instruction. 

Here's a curriculum series that does what Kbutton is talking about. https://www.teachercreatedmaterials.com/teachers/series/vocabulary-ladders-192/  I'm not saying it's intervention level, but it gives you a sense of when it's developmentally normal to begin working on it and to what degree and how you could. It's good stuff. My ds has a gap between what he *recognizes* and what he *uses*. So there's that and the concept and having the language and then actually using it. With the more significant DLD, we're talking about a process. So being aware of it is good. The seed to plant is the 5 point scale, because then as you begin to use that in life for anything you can start to put language to it. We've used it with our interoception work, where we needed to give him language and the ability to pin sensations to those terms. We needed words for degrees of hot, degrees of cold, etc. We literally sat there with different temps of water and an infrared gun giving MEANING to these degrees of cold. 

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1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Here's a curriculum series that does what Kbutton is talking about. I'm not saying it's intervention level, but it gives you a sense of when it's developmentally normal to begin working on it and to what degree and how you could. It's good stuff. My ds has a gap between what he *recognizes* and what he *uses*. So there's that and the concept and having the language and then actually using it. With the more significant DLD, we're talking about a process. So being aware of it is good. The seed to plant is the 5 point scale, because then as you begin to use that in life for anything you can start to put language to it. We've used it with our interoception work, where we needed to give him language and the ability to pin sensations to those terms. We needed words for degrees of hot, degrees of cold, etc. We literally sat there with different temps of water and an infrared gun giving MEANING to these degrees of cold. 

Did you forget the curriculum?

I know the 5-point scale can be part, but that's generic for all kinds of things.

FWIW, we had an ABA person do some fun activities from a social skills book that I no longer own. I don't have a title, unfortunately.

I think I've seen this kind of exercise in teacher stores, but for ordinary words, not emotions/body language/faces. I think Montessori uses a technique of grading words for general vocabulary also. 

You can google shades of meaning to get examples for ordinary vocab.

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In your Braidy kit you had a set of emotion words and the 6 universal emotions, yes? Now in phase 2 of the interoception curriculum Mahler has you begin to hit emotions. *I* think that it makes sense to merge these concepts. Now you don't *have* to, but logically they merge. Choosing not to can be good because then you're seeing things in a new system rather than being really rigid. Me, I'm stupid rigid, lol. 

So anyways, once you recognize the 6 universal emotions and realize they're showing up in your narrative language AND your interoception work, then you see why there would be a range. How "happy" are you? How "happy" is the character in the book? MW/ASD has a list of emotion words on bookmarks and you can use those for doing the grading (1-5, less to more) that Kbutton is talking about. And you can bring it up in your literacy time, like HOW happy is this character or HOW angry is he? How do we know? What is his body doing?

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5 minutes ago, kbutton said:

not emotions/body language/faces.

MW has bookmarks of the words categorized under the 6 universal emotions. I think the idea of 6 universal emotions is not *proprietary* to them. As far as for the interoception, well that's how I found the Vocabulary Ladders series, because I was looking for something to give me ideas on language. I just went through them pulling words that worked for the body parts we were hitting.

Of course now that we have the actual interoception curriculum, we don't have to be so wildly creative, lol. Really though, I don't think that's true. I'm glancing through it, but reality is you HAVE to build the language and you have to do whatever it takes. I think that gap, where language has meaning and is not just memorized jibberish, is a big issue with my ds. He can't tell me has a headache, and I've started to wonder if I'm using a term that means nothing to him. I may need to explain it another way, with language that means something or is more precise, till he builds together what the sensations are that = headache.

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29 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's what I'm saying. The reading comprehension is plateauing at the level where most language intervention ends. Think about the level you're seeing in available materials and think about what's NOT out there. Unless the SLP is making it up herself, there isn't a lot of great stuff out there for kids with DLD who are able to continue working on syntactic complexity, etc. It's a niche thing too, as not all kids with DLD or ASD can. A huge chunk of your ASD2/3 kids have ID or language delays or even non-verbal issues to the point where working on sentence complexity isn't the plan. They aren't doing it.

 So yes, if you have a dc who CAN go further, like I hope mine can sigh, then you're left scratching like a chicken, trying to find stuff. There's an SLP Balthazaar who's doing some research to develop an evidence-based approach for intervention in sentence complexity to bump reading comprehension. We're not crazy seeing the connection between syntax, reading comprehension, and writing. It's there. Just it's hard to find pre-made materials to do this. They're working on it or we innovate.

  

oh ok, sorry so I misunderstood... and now I'm rethinking all those kids I worked with years ago who could decode but not understand what they were reading and realizing they needed language work...

28 minutes ago, Pen said:

What picture books does he like?

 

he’s doing some self-advocating at age 6? That’s wonderful!

Yes, the self-advocating is new and in specific play-based situations, but I'm thrilled to see it start emerging. We've been working on things like "tell me exactly what you need me to do" when he shoves something into my hands for me to help with, lol. That and the OT has been doing TONS of work on getting him to ideate ways to play with her, and he's starting to do some really exciting things with that.

Some picture books he likes: swimmy by Leo Leoni; The True Story of the Three Little Pigs by Jon Scieszka; Barn Storm by Charles Ghigna and Debra Ghigna; Little Bear by Else Holmelund Minarik; Pickles to Pittsburgh and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs; Salty Seagul A tale of an old salt by suzanne Tate; Big Bad Wolf is Good by Simon Puttock.

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31 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Grading emotion words...annoyance vs. anger vs. rage. My son would know they were all negative, but he wouldn't understand those words represented a continuum. Same with faces, body language, etc. So, if someone was annoyed with him or super angry, he just kind of assumed the worst. He wouldn't see the nuance without direct instruction. 

ok, so I don't know. That's an interesting thought process though. I do know that he's particular about the choice of words I use to describe his emotions when I mirror him in the moment. Almost like annoyed and angry and frustrated all have different definitions that apply to select situations and this situation is angry, not frustrated, but now this situation is annoyed, not angry...

33 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So your ABA tip would be to take turns making choices. A lot of ABA stuff like that is common sense. You want to be able to make some demands, so as he chills you bring in a slight demand like that so that it's not always HIS way. Life is reciprocal, with taking turns, etc. Learning to do that with books is setting him up to be able to do it with play, etc. 🙂

Yes, and I can make the choice sometimes. But now that I think about it, I probably should do more turn taking with choices. Thanks for the common sense reminder 🙂

I love the ideas given here about the grading of emotions and specific language and using the 5 point charts and tying curriculum together like that.

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3 minutes ago, mamashark said:

oh ok, sorry so I misunderstood... and now I'm rethinking all those kids I worked with years ago who could decode but not understand what they were reading and realizing they needed language work...

Yes, the self-advocating is new and in specific play-based situations, but I'm thrilled to see it start emerging. We've been working on things like "tell me exactly what you need me to do" when he shoves something into my hands for me to help with, lol. That and the OT has been doing TONS of work on getting him to ideate ways to play with her, and he's starting to do some really exciting things with that.

Some picture books he likes: swimmy by Leo Leoni; The True Story of the Three Little Pigs by Jon Scieszka; Barn Storm by Charles Ghigna and Debra Ghigna; Little Bear by Else Holmelund Minarik; Pickles to Pittsburgh and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs; Salty Seagul A tale of an old salt by suzanne Tate; Big Bad Wolf is Good by Simon Puttock.

 

Note: weird caps are due to autocorrect not important 

I don’t know all those, but think he’s got great taste with regard to those I recognize.  

For read aloud, I’d gradually Branch out from those such as onto Others by Judi Barrett...    Jon Scieszka I think has some that move up in difficulty while still being picture books...

 

Does he like Mercer Meyer at all?  They possibly have similarities in humor ...     though maybe the imaginary animals are a problem with fears...  Some of his books are easy enough that they might help with  non official instructional level reading...

 

 

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18 minutes ago, mamashark said:

Some picture books he likes

I'm looking these up, but I would suggest you make a list of what books he *interacts* with. My ds was listening to Great Courses at 5. That doesn't mean that was his read aloud level. Well that's not true, he listened to Demon Under the Microscope at that age! But when I back up and ask what books he INTERACTS with, where he's going to comment, stop me, make connections, ask social wondering questions, be able to retell some of what happened, make predictions, laugh, etc., that level is different.

So it's not what he likes, because he's gifted and we expect him to like bright things. You're asking where his language is matching up such that he can actually do things with the material, unprompted.

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20 minutes ago, mamashark said:

swimmy by Leo Leoni; The True Story of the Three Little Pigs by Jon Scieszka; Barn Storm by Charles Ghigna and Debra Ghigna; Little Bear by Else Holmelund Minarik; Pickles to Pittsburgh and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs; Salty Seagul A tale of an old salt by suzanne Tate; Big Bad Wolf is Good by Simon Puttock.

So sort of the median on your list is 510. (570, 510, 500, 370, 830, 730, 510) If you put 510 into the lexile finder, you get Magic Treehouse books. That's stuff my ds was willing to listen to as read-alouds a couple years ago (before our language work), yes. But then to get where he would interact, asking his own social wondering questions, laughing, making predictions, stopping me to connect it to something he already knew, that level would have been different I think. But you can play with it. The best way is trial and error like that. I punched into 510 into the lexile search engine and it pops out all kinds of books. I filtered it by animals, since they seem to be common to your books. You'll get a variety of hits, including chapter books. You can see what happens. Get a couple through the library, see what happens. You probably already own some of them or have them around for your other kids. Then do that same search with a different lexile, say 310, which would be below anything you had listed, and try a few of them on him and see what happens. Search at 410 and see what happens. 

Then you can see the difference in the type of interactions you get, the language he uses, whether he's listening or asking questions or stopping you or what. It will give you a lot of information.

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4 minutes ago, mamashark said:

ok I have to think more about this one. But I see your point, and I'll start to make note of these.

To me, right now, if I'm working on narration or comprehension, I'm going to be dropping the level. It gives you a way to control it. And honestly, the books we've gotten using that fab.lexile.com link are really nice!!! It sorts by popularity, and I'm just saying they've been a lot of hits, a lot of really great books. And you know me, I go overboard. I literally got 100 through our library in one fell swoop, lol. Actually I got about another 20. So seriously, we tossed some and read a lot of that pile, and they were really great. It gave us a way to bulk up on that input, reading 5-6 a day, and have them be winners. 

I need to do that again, requesting more books. It was really fun, lol. It sort of also changed ds' relationship with text. He has been so rigid, and here we were reading across so many topics and he was able to engage. It was really cool.

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15 hours ago, mamashark said:

ok, so I don't know. That's an interesting thought process though. I do know that he's particular about the choice of words I use to describe his emotions when I mirror him in the moment. Almost like annoyed and angry and frustrated all have different definitions that apply to select situations and this situation is angry, not frustrated, but now this situation is annoyed, not angry...

Maybe he gets that they have shades of meaning, but he's struggling to tie them to the circumstance. He might be applying some cause and effect logic one by one to situations to figure this out. Or maybe he is applying the shades of meaning to something more concrete--like the situation vs. the feeling itself? Sometimes kids over-generalize vs. failing to generalize a concept. 

I would not be surprised if more data points would be good for him from multiple directions. So, not just saying this is what annoyed means, what it looks like, and how it relates to anger, but that one time, when you dropped something on the floor you were annoyed because _______________, but another time you were angry because _________________. Or, one time you were sad because you broke a family heirloom, and another time, you were embarrassed because someone saw you do something clumsy. So sometimes, you might want to vary the emotions to compare and contrast but keep the situation the same, and another time, you might want to keep the emotion the same by vary the situation. 

He sounds like he really thinks hard to figure things out himself. 

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On 3/31/2019 at 7:57 PM, PeterPan said:

If you put 510 into the lexile finder, you get Magic Treehouse books

So I had these artificial classifications of books in my head that put the Magic treehouse into those 'first books you read by yourself' rather than read-alouds. I pulled them off the shelf last night and allowed my son to pick one for us to read together and after the first 2 chapters I said bedtime and he begged for just one more chapter! And today he reminded me that we needed to finish the book and asked if we could go down the pile I had pulled off the shelf?

So that's an amusing twist to the conversation, anyway.

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And here is a note, not to give you things to worry about, but so that you won't be surprised if it happens. If he is showing comprehension issues now with the readalouds, he is likely to have comprehension issues once he is reading independently. It's common to feel stymied about how to help and address that; it's been discussed quite a bit on the LC boards. If you find comprehension issues cropping up, you can find old posts here or create a new one to discuss it.

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42 minutes ago, mamashark said:

So I had these artificial classifications of books in my head that put the Magic treehouse into those 'first books you read by yourself' rather than read-alouds. I pulled them off the shelf last night and allowed my son to pick one for us to read together and after the first 2 chapters I said bedtime and he begged for just one more chapter! And today he reminded me that we needed to finish the book and asked if we could go down the pile I had pulled off the shelf?

So that's an amusing twist to the conversation, anyway.

That's exciting! I would try dropping the lexile further (230, 330, 430) and see what happens with his ability to interact with the texts. You'd like him to be able to make predictions, relate it to something he has done, retell the story, etc. It's ok to read something at that push range, but see if you can also have read alouds at a level where he's able to interact. My ds will *enjoy* books that are a higher level than he's ready to *interact* with. I think you're right to be flexible, yes. Try non-fiction too. There's so much really wonderful, well-written non-fiction at this level. Check out the Let's Read and Find Out books. They'll show up in that lexile finder when you drop the level. Beautifully written and maybe something he can engage with.

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32 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

If he is showing comprehension issues now with the readalouds, he is likely to have comprehension issues once he is reading independently.

Or he could do like my ds and just refuse to read, lol. 

The language pit is never-ending. It's why I'm saying THERE IS NO RUSH. There is no need to go to higher lexile literature, more syntactically complex literature. Dig right down in something so low that he can actually TALK about it and COMPREHEND it and NARRATE it and use the language structures in it. If you do that, if you dig in, then you're dealing with the real problem, the language problem. With the autism, if you bump up the level without comprehension, all you do is go back to memorization mode. 

Remind us, he's decoding, not decoding? If he is decoding but not reading, then you might find that pulling back lets you find a level where both interaction and him reading independently can occur. They may be close to the same level. It's a goal the ABA people would have, getting him to read something independently for a brief amount of time. It's really nice to think that just getting him decoding will result in the dc reading (like picking up books for hours and saying thank you) but that may be wishful thinking. May your kid do it, kwim? My kid we have to do a lot of structuring. He can, but with his mix (decoding, comprehension, behavioral regulation, narrative language, am I even interested this, I'd rather be running in the yard or playing nintendo) it's just hard. So you might find where those merge.

I'm saying it would be really good advice to pick whatever he CAN interact with and have a habit of independent reading 10 minutes a day. Build up to 10 or 15 or whatever you want and take it back as far as it takes to get there. That could be picture books, wordless books, single word on a page, anything. That's your ABA gig to build that habit, and if it's going to be hard for him, then having some routine may help.

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On 3/31/2019 at 7:32 PM, mamashark said:

oh ok, sorry so I misunderstood... and now I'm rethinking all those kids I worked with years ago who could decode but not understand what they were reading and realizing they needed language work...

 

Or they could have been able to decode, but it used up so much brain power, and they went so slowly, there was no room left for comprehending. Reading has to be fluent - both automatic and fast, for comprehension. 

5 hours ago, mamashark said:

So I had these artificial classifications of books in my head that put the Magic treehouse into those 'first books you read by yourself' rather than read-alouds. I pulled them off the shelf last night and allowed my son to pick one for us to read together and after the first 2 chapters I said bedtime and he begged for just one more chapter! And today he reminded me that we needed to finish the book and asked if we could go down the pile I had pulled off the shelf?

So that's an amusing twist to the conversation, anyway.

Yes, that's what I was trying to get at with the boxcar series - to use books that kids read on their own as they have much simpler sentence structure, etc. 

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16 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Remind us, he's decoding, not decoding? If he is decoding but not reading, then you might find that pulling back lets you find a level where both interaction and him reading independently can occur.

He learned to decode cvc words quickly, but has thrown fits whenever I get much past 3 word sentences. So I thought we'd progress fairly quickly this year compared to his sister who has dyslexia and couldn't get the sounds firmly connected to the letters forever, and each step in the reading progress has just taken her a lot longer than typical. BUT he's not any further in reading instruction than he was in the fall simply because he will refuse to work for me past sounding out words. I was to the point of him reading to me a 3-5 word sentence with comprehension - he'd read it slowly, word by word, and then laugh when he would get to the end because of the funny sentence - or we would read these partial sentences where he would fill in "silly answers" and he would have fun with that, but now he refuses to do more than read one or two words before he just refuses and he won't even attempt sentences anymore.

11 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

that's what I was trying to get at with the boxcar series - to use books that kids read on their own as they have much simpler sentence structure, etc. 

I realized that, the thing is, he refuses to listen to the boxcar series too, but that has an added component to it because my parents read that series to them over skype. sooo, the interpersonal stuff makes that more difficult too. 

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1 hour ago, mamashark said:

now he refuses to do more than read one or two words before he just refuses and he won't even attempt sentences anymore.

And remind us, you're using Barton or what? With my ds, I used Barton, which is not intended for anyone with DLD btw but in my defense we didn't realize at the time, and they have words, phrases, sentences. So I put the words, phrases, and sentences into Quizlet. I drilled the words to fluency, the phrases to fluency, then the sentences to fluency. The sentences were comprised of the phrases, so the task was only decoding endurance.

Barton does not recommend asking them to read anything outside her materials before the student completes level 4. I think bringing in outside materials that ask him to decode complete sentences and read for comprehension is mixing a lot of challenges. With my ds, I had him through level 4 of Barton and then asked him to read the text (mostly single words, building to sentences) on the speech therapy materials we were using. So at that point we weren't working on decoding, only comprehension, and it was a really tightly spiraled comprehension, only asking him to read and comprehend something we were literally learning to comprehend. 

Ok, I need to insert here (and my memory is fuzzy) that ds finished most of Barton 4 by the end of 1st. So we were doing the speech therapy materials the end of 3rd, two years later. That's a lot of time to build fluency. Later readers still go through the fluency stages, just like early readers. It's not like oh wait and they go faster. That's not true per the studies I've seen. They still have to put in the hours to build fluency. So to be clear, my ds had had a lot of hours of various kinds of small reading BEFORE I started having him read those speech therapy pages. Use your head, your judgment, and all that.

Teaching reading is one of the most stressful things, like childbirth. You're so worried it won't work, but it will. You're going to keep going at it and it will come. So embrace the pain and breathe deeply, lol.

I think once you realize all the factors involved, you'll figure out how to isolate them and know what you're working on and not mix them. I think it's a lot to ask a novice reader who is not yet fluent to read AND comprehend AND work on his language disability. So you need to work on the language disability separately, the fluency separately, then merge reading fluently with comprehension when he has the language piece. My ds was reading very, very fluently when I began having him reading those worksheets. 

I don't know how it should look for you, but think through the factors and know how many you're working at a time and isolate. Like they make it sound like oh mustn't isolate, but kids can't necessarily work on EVERYTHING at once, kwim? 

Ok, so have you had CTOPP scores to know his RAN/RAS? It's usually a lagging indicator of dyslexia, present even when the kid has had solid intervention. I've seen (idiots) saying online you can't improve RAN/RAS, which is hogwash. We drilled it 3-4X a day, every day, while we were working on Barton. It's probably the single greatest thing you could do to improve fluency, and strong RAN/RAS is known to be correlated with strong readers. It will cost you nothing and it's absurd not to. 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rcl6f0uo70esmv/AAAaGAHw3_YTMEQZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0  There's the link for the files I used. I made them copying ideas I had seen on another side that I forget at the moment, sorry. They had some really compelling research, pictures, and I was like fine I'm hack. I printed these files, put them in page protectors, and we'd read the same sheet 3-4 ways, kwim? Like vertical, horizontal, sideways, etc. My ds has apraxia, so first I had to make sure he could say the words. Once we had that, it was drill baby drill. And as they got easier, we'd add in things like arrows, arm movements to go with the directions, metronome set to 54bpm, etc. LOVE doing work like this with metronome, highly recommend. 

So yeah, if you just wanna take two weeks to chill on the reading and do something else while you recollect and figure out your plan, that's what I'd do, go kick some butt on RAN/RAS. If it's stupid easy, well there you go. But if it's hard, then you've found something that will make a difference. I think we used the colored dots, numbers. Some will do it with words. Whatever suits you or fits the level of the student. We kept the pages in a notebook in those page protectors and every time he did it he could place a sticker on the paper insert for the cover, hehe. It's a little thing, but kids that age are motivated by stickers. :biggrin:

Play around with it, see what happens. It will get you some data. Poor RAN/RAS would definitely hold back his fluency, and bumping it will make everything go better. With so many factors, you have to cherry pick things off and isolate.

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1 hour ago, mamashark said:

I realized that, the thing is, he refuses to listen to the boxcar series too, but that has an added component to it because my parents read that series to them over skype. sooo, the interpersonal stuff makes that more difficult too. 

So does he listen to audiobooks on a device like a kindle? I would think that wouldn't be any more abstract than Skype. Skype ought to be easier because there was a face. Well I say that, but really my ds didn't remember people for a long time and didn't seem to understand telephones. It's the autism. Now he does, but he didn't then. Can your ds dial a phone number? Does he talk on the phone? These things are on developmental lists. So yeah, it would show up as maybe an unpleasant behavior, but it was the autism, sigh.

So my ds listened to a lot of audiobooks, but if they were advanced he sort of zoned out and went into the aut and was memorizing. Now that he comprehends better, he actually prefers for me to read to him, which really surprises me. I had not expected that at all. He used to beg me for audiobooks and now he asks me to read. And he's able to stop and discuss them because we're nailing the level. So maybe they're more fun?

But yeah, the telephone is really abstract. I had forgotten that. It was really noticeable in the last year that ds finally started to "get" it. He was also late on remotes like for the tv and operating basic appliances like a VCR or DVD. My dd was doing that herself at like 3-4, totally independently, and he was more like 8 before it started clicking. And these are things on lists, yes.

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