Menu
Jump to content

What's with the ads?

Recommended Posts

Based on federal law, it seems to me, I can request the school to cover APD testing. I'm going to attempt this with a copy of the law. 
(https://www.wrightslaw.com/info/child.find.index.htm?fbclid=IwAR0E-MS8H8S5vgk4Ra6RMdn2Y4WmVChYKuCNSdD5USRnNnbJ1BHUkmIqGTk)

Quote

Who is Covered by Child Find?

Schools are required to locate, identify and evaluate all children with disabilities from birth through age 21. The Child Find mandate applies to all children who reside within a State, including children who attend private schools and public schools, highly mobile children, migrant children, homeless children, and children who are wards of the state. (20 U.S.C. 1412(a)(3))

This includes all children who are suspected of having a disability, including children who receive passing grades and are "advancing from grade to grade." (34 CFR 300.111(c)) The law does not require children to be "labeled" or classified by their disability. (20 U.S.C. 1412(a)(3)(B); 34 CFR 300.111(d)).

 

Has anyone done this with success? If nothing else, I want to force the school to deny me services/testing in writing as they have only verbally dismissed all my concerns with ds based on his grades. The part about grade works to my advantage. Ds just got a recent report card a few days ago. As and one B. The As and Bs for report cards have been consistent. 

Second question, is it supposedly necessary to do follow up APD testing annually?? A friend of mine has a child that tested positive for APD and has been told it's a progressive disorder that needs to be checked annually. What??? So she's trying to get the school district (different than our school district) to foot the bill. I have no idea how this will go over, but it made me think maybe I can try something similar.

Dh did open up to the idea of using "leftover" Flex Spending money on APD testing at the end of the cycle... but it's unlikely there will be any leftover, so I'm not counting on that. Things always come up and I do see where he's coming from in thinking that "kids just got sick" may seem like a more immediate need than APD testing. You could argue it either way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is an interesting question? Where my first thought was that it wouldn't be covered?  But I had a look into the IDEA laws.
Where in fact, it may be covered.
Under: 20 US Code 1414, it states:
" (B) Request for initial evaluation:Consistent with subparagraph (D), either a parent of a child, or a State educational agency, other State agency, or local educational agency may initiate a request for an initial evaluation to determine if the child is a child with a disability."
Where the important part, is 'if the child is a child with a disability'.
So that an initial evaluation, to determine if the child has a disability.

Then, if we look under US 20 Code 1401:  It provides a definition of what is meant by 'child with disability':
" (3) Child with a disability:

(A) In general The term “child with a disability” means a child—

(i)
with intellectual disabilities, hearing impairments (including deafness), speech or language impairments, visual impairments (including blindness), serious emotional disturbance (referred to in this chapter as “emotional disturbance”), orthopedic impairments, autism, traumatic brain injury, other health impairments, or specific learning disabilities; and
(ii)
who, by reason thereof, needs special education and related services. "

So that under these Definitions.  It doesn't limit the initial evaluation. To identifying a 'Learning Disorder'.  Which is what the schools would claim. Where in fact, it provides for an evaluation for a Disability.    Here's links to the above:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/1414
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/1401#3
 
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When looking at sample letters for requesting such an evaluation, it looks like you must first have the school attempt an eval and then state that it wasn't to your needs? So I think I have to start with a request (formally this time, in writing) and go from there. I will mention the APD concern in the initial letter, though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I sent an email with my letter attached. I sent it to the principal and cc two other faculty members (counselor and person over special needs). I could not find the email addresses of ds' teacher (one of his teachers noticed issues) anywhere online and I don't think the few names on the website are even necessarily up-to-date. One of the email addresses (special needs) I only had because of former communication. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several things to consider. One, the school only has to pursue the concerns when there is an effect on the dc's ability to access their education. Two, APD is now recognized by ASHA (meaning the school can be compelled to care) BUT is being treated as a language issue. They may or may not decide to make goals specific to *auditory* processing but would care about *language* processing. 

Are you saying he has issues with background noise? Or are you saying he has issues with processing language, fatigue in environments where he's using language a lot? What specifically are you saying is happening that is affecting his ability to access his education?

You need some evidence and you need to be able to demonstrate that the disability is affecting his ability to access his education. Grades are one way, but it can be other things like ability to hear in the lunch room or participate in social situations. 

The school can be compelled to run a basic audiology eval (hearing, etc.) but their ability to do APD testing will be exceptionally limited. Full APD testing requires a specialized booth and is done by an audiologist. The school could run the TAPS or language testing that would reveal the *effects* of the APD issues and thus be the basis for IEP goals. In the absence of evidence that there is something going on with language or something in any way affecting his ability to access his education, they won't care. They're not going to fish and identify every MEDICAL problem, only the ones that affect his ability to access his education and thus warrant an EDUCATIONAL diagnosis.

You'll get farther with things like pragmatics and anxiety btw. Those things are easy to test in a dc who is say 9+ and they'll get him in the door for IEP goals in a hot flash. By law they should be using forms that cover EVERY area of concern (audiology, behavior, mental health, vision, adaptive skills, social, etc.), so you can raise more concerns when you have that meeting. You just need evidence that the disability is occurring (symptoms, stories, something) and evidence that it is affecting his ability to access his education. 

I have no doubt he does have things going on. I'm just saying that's how you get there. Done the legal fight over IEPs enough to know that if you're getting stonewalled, that's why. APD is your most difficult thing to pursue unless it's glaring. Like we've had kids on the board who vomit when they get in noise. APD, if it affects enough areas, will affect phonological processing and language acquisition. So you want to be very precise what you're saying is happening and put it into terms that tell them what tests you're asking to be run. What tests will they run based on what you're presenting? Make a clear connection and have evidence that compels them to run those tests. If you're still in the vague zone (I know something is wrong, don't know what), that's a lot harder, especially when the kid has good grades and *seems* to be doing well. At that point you think through exactly what you're saying needs to happen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Several things to consider. One, the school only has to pursue the concerns when there is an effect on the dc's ability to access their education. Two, APD is now recognized by ASHA (meaning the school can be compelled to care) BUT is being treated as a language issue. They may or may not decide to make goals specific to *auditory* processing but would care about *language* processing. 

Are you saying he has issues with background noise? Or are you saying he has issues with processing language, fatigue in environments where he's using language a lot? What specifically are you saying is happening that is affecting his ability to access his education?

You need some evidence and you need to be able to demonstrate that the disability is affecting his ability to access his education. Grades are one way, but it can be other things like ability to hear in the lunch room or participate in social situations. 

The school can be compelled to run a basic audiology eval (hearing, etc.) but their ability to do APD testing will be exceptionally limited. Full APD testing requires a specialized booth and is done by an audiologist. The school could run the TAPS or language testing that would reveal the *effects* of the APD issues and thus be the basis for IEP goals. In the absence of evidence that there is something going on with language or something in any way affecting his ability to access his education, they won't care. They're not going to fish and identify every MEDICAL problem, only the ones that affect his ability to access his education and thus warrant an EDUCATIONAL diagnosis.

You'll get farther with things like pragmatics and anxiety btw. Those things are easy to test in a dc who is say 9+ and they'll get him in the door for IEP goals in a hot flash. By law they should be using forms that cover EVERY area of concern (audiology, behavior, mental health, vision, adaptive skills, social, etc.), so you can raise more concerns when you have that meeting. You just need evidence that the disability is occurring (symptoms, stories, something) and evidence that it is affecting his ability to access his education. 

I have no doubt he does have things going on. I'm just saying that's how you get there. Done the legal fight over IEPs enough to know that if you're getting stonewalled, that's why. APD is your most difficult thing to pursue unless it's glaring. Like we've had kids on the board who vomit when they get in noise. APD, if it affects enough areas, will affect phonological processing and language acquisition. So you want to be very precise what you're saying is happening and put it into terms that tell them what tests you're asking to be run. What tests will they run based on what you're presenting? Make a clear connection and have evidence that compels them to run those tests. If you're still in the vague zone (I know something is wrong, don't know what), that's a lot harder, especially when the kid has good grades and *seems* to be doing well. At that point you think through exactly what you're saying needs to happen.

 

He has already had the TAPS test. I paid for it privately and it was pretty useless since it was basically presented by the university communicative disorders clinic as an APD test when it's more like a vocabulary test. It did reveal he had working memory (or short term, can't remember what term they used) issues. They (grad student working on becoming an SLP and the SLP supervising it) met with him several weeks to try to help him with memory. The grad student gave him a notebook and told him to write things down in it to help him.  He wasn't writing things down and he kept losing the notebook. His memory issue was not considered severe because of where it was in relation to standard deviation, but I consider it severe in that it affects his daily life. Now, it could be ADHD. It could be memory. It could be APD. It could be ALL of those. I don't know. I'm just trying to outrule things. The ADHD was a testing of its own and the results were not very ... conclusive? That's a whole 'nother thread. Literally, I wrote a thread about that. 

I have been in touch with an audiologist that tests for APD. She literally works here: https://www.auditorycenter.com. There is another place that does testing as well, but I'd probably take him to her center. 

I know what is involved and I know the cost. If I can get the school involved they may be able to do the testing. Otherwise, it's $700+ out of pocket. I have some funds on my flex spending card, but dh doesn't want me to blow $700+ of that right now. Our cycle ends at the end of August. If there are enough funds left that's another story. About a week ago I took dd to the doctor, she had a crown done like a month ago, dh is under the weather and may go to the dr today (he didn't work last night or go into work today)... our medical just keeps adding up. Our insurance covers NOTHING for ds' as far as hearing/ears/APD. I have checked. He was given a hearing screening at the university and passed it. Had he not passed, then they would have involved an audiologist. I informed them that the TAPS does not test for APD. They didn't even know that... sigh. They don't even have an audiologist on site. They just refer you out. 

Early in the year I met with all his teachers and principal. One, maybe two, of his four main teachers were able to cite examples of things going on with him that could fit the APD mold. His science teacher, specifically, was nodding along when I spoke about him. She offered examples of things he does in class. Now that was the very beginning of the year. I'm sure they have had more time to observe him, but most will not worry because he has good grades. An example of something the teacher said was repeating things or reassuring him of things. Like, "turn to page 74" and he'd repeat it back? "Do we need to turn to page 74?" or something to that affect. It's been a while since I spoke to her about it. 

He may or may not attend public school next year. We have no idea. Everything is up in the air. I'm trying to fight for testing now, while he's in the system. 

It's true anxiety might be something to look into. I have heard that suggestion as well. I'm not sure how to address that or if I'd get a lot of backlash from my spouse and ds for suggesting he needs anxiety addressed. 

In his day-to-day life his problems appear to be hearing, but I know it's not his hearing. He's always struggled with multi-step directions. He needs things repeated a lot. He could even be on the spectrum for all I know. He sometimes lacks common sense. Normally he gets off the bus and goes to the library where dh works. Some days he comes straight to the house, like if dh isn't working on this campus that day. Well, one day I was running behind schedule and forgot that dh was not on campus. Instead of simply going into the library, ds sat in front of our house for like 45 min. It got cold and I don't even think he had his jacket with him. A librarian and campus officer checked on him for us. He's 10. When dh left town I gave ds a house key and said if Mom isn't home or is in the bathroom, etc. just let yourself in the house. Twice that week he needed the key. Once was because I was out getting the flat tire fixed and something else... but he was not home alone long so I was fine with it (for whatever reason dh isn't comfortable with ds going in the house alone). Now it's a struggle to get ds to remember to take the house key and put it back in his backpack so I never assume he has the key. I specifically ask him. But I digress. 

He had me drive him to school when there was no school. He didn't hear the teacher remind them (on a Friday) about no school on the following Monday. I overlooked it as it was odd they would have two Mondays off back to back. One was Martin Luther King, Jr. day and one was some sort of teacher work day/report card or progress report day. I have to keep on top of those things, he may not even realize it's report card pick up day and they have had several. They want you to physically pick it up and sign a form at at table where the teachers are. Then you have an opportunity to talk to the teachers but they usually don't say much. I ask them questions but no one seems concerned because he has As and Bs and many of their students are lagging. Ds said recently he had a test and he was one of five that passed it. He said they work independently on iready in a computer lab (you can move at your own pace) and some kids are grade levels behind him and some days he's gone far enough ahead that he has nothing to do for the remainder of the period. I guess they play video games or something at that point. So, compared to some of his peers, I guess the teachers are not exactly worried. 

Editing to clarify: I don't mean have the school run an APD test on site... I meant foot the bill for the private eval. They are not equipped to do it on site. 

Edited by heartlikealion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

I want to mention that you do have the option for next year to place your child in a classroom where the instructor is trained in using the FM mike system, or one where the background noise is quiet, and the lighting is appropriate for lip reading. There may also be an option of a classroom that is less auditory, and has more written communication or reading.  For ex, some classrooms for English have whole class auditory listening to the assigned readings, while others expect the students to read independently, and others have individual listening with a headphone.  Some teachers have notes on the board to accompany their words, some use applets on the computer.  One arranges  this by working with the current school psych and making the request in writing, so that the Principal/guidance counselor can take that request in consideration when setticorng up next year's classrooms.  A child does not have to have a formal diagnosis or a classification to be in such as room, as such a classroom will not be 100% classified students.  That could be very helpful in the event that the necessary medical work and classification process takes longer than expected.

Its quite possible that he will be given an FM receiver as a trial, if you ask and they have the equipment and are using it in the room for another students.  One of my dc is dysgraphic and had temporary hearing loss;  rather than go thru the time consuming process of label, the school just handed him all the accommodations needed and an OT to work with....common sense prevailed as they had spare equipment and he could get the remediation done before they could get the labeling done.  They also put him in multisensory classrooms, which were fantastic for his temporary hearing loss and his preference for visual/spatial rather than lecture.

When you speak to the principal and the psych,do not go for emotions.  Have facts...things like the amount of unfinished work being brought home, show that verbal instructions aren't followed anywhere near as well as written, etc.  Show that he is working hard in studying at home to do things that really should have been done in class.  Me, I showed a homework paragraph ... my kid could reel off a thoughtful paragraph response to literature with complete details in two minutes and I recorded that.  He could not get that thru a pencil to paper legibly unless he took thirty minutes and I scribed the recording for him to copy.  If I didn't scribe it, his details would get lost as he was so focused on legibility that he'd lose his train of thought.  We could all look at that fact, and the teachers could look at his tests & classroom responses and see the difference between his verbal and written responses. In that matter we came up with an effective solution that worked for the student in both short and long term.

That's awesome but I don't think will apply to my situation. I don't think anyone around here uses such things, or at least, doesn't have the type of classroom you describe. He gets homework one day a week, typically, and is expected to turn it in the next week so we are not seeing a mountain of homework etc. That's not really applicable. The verbal info is the real issue. 

--------------------------

When I sent the letter I did cite an example of how ds is not holding onto certain verbal information. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Otherwise, it's $700+ out of pocket.

I agree, in your position I would not pay that much $$$ for private testing. That's a ton of money if it turns out not to be the problem.

3 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

An example of something the teacher said was repeating things or reassuring him of things. Like, "turn to page 74" and he'd repeat it back? "Do we need to turn to page 74?" or something to that affect.

This sounds like anxiety. 

APD can involve background noise (it does for my dd, where she has trouble discriminating speech in background noise and gets migraines from the strain), but commonly it's going to affect language, meaning the issues should show in language testing.

6 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I'm trying to fight for testing now, while he's in the system. 

I hear you. I would think more broadly and be arguing for thorough evals, not just the APD. They should be looking at that anxiety, etc., anything warranted based on evidence you give. 

https://www.asha.org/PRPSpecificTopic.aspx?folderid=8589943561&section=Resources  Here's the page on ASHA for APD. 

12 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Instead of simply going into the library, ds sat in front of our house for like 45 min. It got cold and I don't even think he had his jacket with him.

This is assessed with the Test of Problem Solving. You're SAYING THINGS THAT ARE SIGNIFICANT, but the diagnosis you're thinking doesn't explain the symptoms and doesn't help you get the tests and the help you need. He also sounds like maybe he's hypo-responsive on sensory, if it was cold and he didn't realize it. How often does that happen? Are there other times when he injures himself and doesn't realize? Does he have issues with self-regulation at school, being too rough with other kids, or being hurt and not realizing it? You could advocate for an OT eval.

14 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

He could even be on the spectrum for all I know.

Yes, if a dc has symptoms across a broad variety of areas, then a more global developmental label would begin to make sense, yes. Anxiety plus sensory plus being in your own world plus difficulty problem solving plus seeming to pass an ADHD screening even though you clearly have issues, sure that would put spectrum on the table. BUT THEN SAY THAT. Don't pussyfoot around with APD, which is just one small side thing, if you have lots of pieces that are bigger picture like this!

Here's the thing. You want thorough evals and you want the school to pay for them. You give them evidence of EVERYTHING. Personally, I would pull in all these pieces that could possibly paint a picture of spectrum, since that's the more global question. The school probably botches it and does an incomplete job. Maybe they won't, but maybe they will. Then you file a dispute, they pay for the IEE (independent 3rd party evals) and YOU FINALLY GET THE EVALS YOU WANTED. 

That's how you get there. You're not going to get there in one step, but you can get there. But you have to bring in evidence and that compels them to eval, something that shows he is not safe, is not able to access his education, something.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

The verbal info is the real issue. 

Ok, so instead of telling them what the explanation is (which allows them to blow you off when they say they have test scores that show that's not the explanation), you one up them. You say you suspect he has LANGUAGE issues due to what you suspect is AUTISM. Totally force their hand. 

You just want evals. You don't have to know the answers. You just have to know what's happening and list all these things out and show they're significant and affecting his ability to access his education.

How are his social skills and pragmatics? Start listing this stuff out.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the problem. In our school district, ASD1 (support level 1) does not get an IEP automatically. Now there are those who argue it should, and you *can* run testing and get it done if you push hard enough. Like you can run the CELF-Metalinguistics and the Test of Narrative Language and show the language deficits. It can be done. But these are kids who often just slide right on through and can survive in the system. 

So to get answers when the kid is surviving and accessing his education, that's a lot harder. You're asking the question (what medically is actually going on) that they are not legally compelled to answer. They're only compelled to identify disabilities that affect his ability to access his education. 

So you have to show effect. Show things that harm him, things that are affecting his ability to function socially or whatever way. Anxiety is a big deal! If he's having anxiety at home over things because he's so maxed out from dealing with school all day, they can be compelled to care. What happens at home matters too, yes. But you have to show why it matters.

It's really good that he's functioning so well overall, btw. It sounds like the structure of school is a real win for him in that sense.

Edited by PeterPan
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@PeterPan Well, I've already sent the letter this morning so I can't add autism or anything. I mean, maybe in a conversation or follow up, I don't know. My letter said, "I suspect there may be an underlying issue, such as Auditory Processing Disorder." 

Hopefully I didn't back myself into a corner too much. 

He does notice if he gets cold. His social skills are not great. They've improved, but he used to just talk off people's ears about Minecraft when they clearly weren't looking to chat about it. If someone says, "how are you?" he might say, "nothing" or if they ask, "what's up?" he might say, "fine." We've pointed that out and try to make him be more mindful of what people are actually saying. 

Honestly I told dh maybe he sat outside because prior to that I remembered dh complaining about ds being in his library too long or not allowed if dh wasn't present. Ds would never confirm that was the reason he waited in front of the house. When I asked the police officer to check on him, he ended up having ds do a ride along with him. I don't know why the librarian and/or the police officer didn't just say, "go inside the library"???? Dh is so worried about this precedent he sets. No children in the library is posted on a library sign and if dh leaves ds in there sans dh then he's worried other employees will think it's fine to use the building as their personal daycare. But, I think you have to look at it as an isolated incident. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also suggested that he could have waited in the backyard... 

Obviously no one saw that situation the same way. And I needed dh to assure me that there would be no high speed chases as it goes against everything I've been taught to have a 10 yr old ride in the front seat! Dh said they wouldn't be zooming around and if something serious happened they could call another police car. 

Anxiety definitely think is affecting him but not sure to what degree or how to word that or what a school does for that?? I know he's been bullied off/on this year and I recently spoke with the gym teacher to have him address behavior that resulted in ds being pushed and laughed at by everyone. Ds didn't really want me to say something but dh said ds had a red face and looked upset. Ds wasn't even sure if he considered the push deliberate and he second guesses so much when he retells stories. But, he said his one friend, said it looked deliberate. So I said good, sounds like you had a witness. Ds is very timid regarding some social situations and very outspoken in others. He said a kid called another child gay and he said, "so what? That's nothing something to make fun of." I'm so proud of him for those moments. When he first started attending school the kids kept suggesting he get Jordans (shoes). Ds doesn't care about shoes, though so didn't let it bother him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

Hopefully I didn't back myself into a corner too much.

I think you're fine. I'd just be prepared, when you go into that meeting, to be more broad. Group the things you're seeing into categories like social, language, and non-verbals. The federal definition of autism (which is what some states use, you can see for yours) will have basic categories like that. So then list everything you're concerned about with language. Then list everything you're concerned about with non-verbals. Then list everything you're concerned about with social. 

Remember, non-verbals can include joint attention, not noticing body cues or facial expressions, etc. These things affect reading comprehension (yes, for real), so the school can be compelled to care! On language, yes those issues with his conversation are significant!!! They'll have really precise things they can look at like the ability to "repair" a conversation, topic maintenance, perseveration (sticking to and always going back to his preferred topic), etc. These are a big deal! And for social, again make the list of what you see happening.

Can he tell you about his day or what happened to him? How old is he? We ran the Test of Narrative Language on my ds, which finally gave data to my varied complaints. That's a SAFETY ISSUE if a dc cannot, in an age-appropriate way, tell you what happened. You can compel them to do narrative language testing! If you have a vague conversation complaint, they'll just say boys are that way. But when you say he's not safe because he can't tell me what happened and I have narrative language concerns, that's really different. 

The letter was just to get you in the door. I think if you go in with evidence for categories of testing, you can try to get it done. If you go in with strong evidence and they DON'T eval, you can file a dispute.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I think you're fine. I'd just be prepared, when you go into that meeting, to be more broad. Group the things you're seeing into categories like social, language, and non-verbals. The federal definition of autism (which is what some states use, you can see for yours) will have basic categories like that. So then list everything you're concerned about with language. Then list everything you're concerned about with non-verbals. Then list everything you're concerned about with social. 

Remember, non-verbals can include joint attention, not noticing body cues or facial expressions, etc. These things affect reading comprehension (yes, for real), so the school can be compelled to care! On language, yes those issues with his conversation are significant!!! They'll have really precise things they can look at like the ability to "repair" a conversation, topic maintenance, perseveration (sticking to and always going back to his preferred topic), etc. These are a big deal! And for social, again make the list of what you see happening.

Can he tell you about his day or what happened to him? How old is he? We ran the Test of Narrative Language on my ds, which finally gave data to my varied complaints. That's a SAFETY ISSUE if a dc cannot, in an age-appropriate way, tell you what happened. You can compel them to do narrative language testing! If you have a vague conversation complaint, they'll just say boys are that way. But when you say he's not safe because he can't tell me what happened and I have narrative language concerns, that's really different. 

The letter was just to get you in the door. I think if you go in with evidence for categories of testing, you can try to get it done. If you go in with strong evidence and they DON'T eval, you can file a dispute.

He's 10, in fifth grade. This school ends at grade five, so he'd either transfer next year or homeschool or go to private. It's all up in the air. I have a job interview tomorrow. Not sure if I'll be working FT next school year or not. 

He's much better at conversation and social stuff now, but definitely still has lapses... not responding to his name repeated. He's not listening or zoning out... don't know. He was walking away from dh and dh kept saying his name yesterday. If I say his name during a show it's really hard to get his attention (but you could say that about lots of kids so...). As far as competing noises... he has complained about the classroom being too noisy. Can't hear the teacher or absorb the info very well because of chatty peers according to him. 

We had a meeting earlier this year... but I didn't make a formal request for it in writing. They had me fill out a form. During the meeting on a couple people that were supposed to be present, were actually there. I was really annoyed. The principal saw me but didn't come in the room. The only ones present was one teacher that saw no issues and the person over special needs. They were very dismissive. I brought a folder of feedback and listed examples of things going on with him. At that time I know I talked about the possible ADHD, my concern that he needed OT services and more. They dismissed it all. I thought that WAS to get an eval... but then they didn't deny me in writing, either. So I feel like I'm starting all over. Since then I did take him a private OT. They did work with him a little and gave us suggestions to help (pencil grip, gross motor skills and timing). The OT ran the Interactive Metronome and now I can't remember the exact feedback but I think he was a bit delayed. Prior to that he saw a behavior optometrist (she got him his glasses) and she gave him vision therapy exercises to do at home. She suggested OT. I told them all this. Very dismissive. He's got good grades. See no issue. 

I'm only mustering up the courage to go back based on this federal law that states regardless of grades. 

The reason he even went to the optometrist is because a) in private school he was complaining of headaches after school and b) he scored low on the Bender Visual-Motor Gestalt test that was administered when they were trying to test for ADHD. They gave him misc. tests. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

You just described math learning on the computer.  That is an accomodation that can be used for an LD such as CAPD/APD, so that the child doesn't have to waste his time in a classroom that is so auditory/noisy that he can't learn.   In an included classroom, that option is given to every child, not just the classified.  

 

Ok but we're talking about a poor school district. I'm thinking these classrooms you speak of simply do not exist. Whether or not he would qualify to use them/should use them. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup, in our district 60+% of the kids live below the poverty level. The school is swamped with problems and not eager to do any services they don't have to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

Um, yes they exist.  Its part of the law to not isolate special needs students and they are included as much as possible.  A student does not have to be classified to 'qualify' to be in such a classroom -- he just needs to benefit from it.  The principal wants all students to learn -- its not in the schools' interest to have a child in a lecture class with a C if he can be in multisensory with an A for ex...the question is how many slots for nonspecial needs are there, and who gets those slots is going to be who benefits from  them the most.

 

Ok what I mean is, "send him down the hall to special classroom" might result in a look like, "huh? We don't have that room." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

He isn't going to be sent anywhere aside from his normal classroom.  What you want for next year is for him to be assigned to a classroom where he can learn efficiently.  You do that noting he has difficulty learning in a setting that includes a,b,c, ... does well with x,y,z.    after you  talk with the principal and psych.  They decide best fit.  You can take the offer, or you can continue negotiating.  It is the principal's job to give you an appropriate offer.

Perhaps I took your reference too literally. The "included classroom" you just described earlier sounded like another fifth grade (or whatever grade he would be in) room. And I was trying to say they currently have two classrooms for fifth grade and I don't think either represent the kind of room you described. That's why I said, "send him where??" Now if you literally meant just have accommodations made inside his current classroom (I'm not going to imagine that the sixth graders have a classroom specifically designed for learning differently) then that's another thing. That's basically just asking for the teacher to change her teaching methods or include a mike for him. That's my take away, anyway. He currently has a homeroom and switches classes for main subjects but stays with same set of peers all day long. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

@PeterPanHe does notice if he gets cold. His social skills are not great. They've improved, but he used to just talk off people's ears about Minecraft when they clearly weren't looking to chat about it. If someone says, "how are you?" he might say, "nothing" or if they ask, "what's up?" he might say, "fine." We've pointed that out and try to make him be more mindful of what people are actually saying. 

 

 My dd does the second part still -- she responds inappropriately (how are you? Yes, beautiful weather!) She has Inattentive adhd.  She had all the similar problems in class -- always missed key information, forgot report cards, forgot that school was cancelled, etc.  Especially if the classroom is noisy -- it takes a lot of energy to get through a loud, stressful school day.  Her working memory tested forty points lower than her highest score. She's got lots of issues following multiple step directions (doesn't happen).  

Getting her attention was very difficult when she was a kid. It usually involved tapping her gently and making sure her eyes were focused on me.  

She's now on Ritalin for the first time, and it's helped. She's not sure it's the final drug, and she's trying to learn other coping mechanisms, but it's definitely helped her socially (able to follow conversations and catch what people are actually saying to her, pick up non verbal language).  But it hasn't helped the getting lost or losing her stuff.  

If he has diagnosed ADHD,  has he started any treatment for it? 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

they currently have two classrooms for fifth grade and I don't think either represent the kind of room you described.

Sometimes these services are in a different building. Our district has maybe 5 elementary schools, and they consolidate kids who need specialized rooms into one building and bus them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

She's now on Ritalin for the first time, and it's helped.

Just to follow up this thought, in case op doesn't realize, the school cannot legally say he needs to be on ADHD meds. So if you want that option, that's something you take up with your ped. Your ped may diagnose ADHD his own way and not care about what the psych thought in your previous attempts. That's what our ped does. He has a computerized attention test (the Quotient) and he runs it, talks through the situation, and decides.

Fwiw, my ds did the not responding, and it's a pretty straight up, known ASD kind of symptom. Now we're talking severity, but yes that's a big deal. You can get into that whole discussion, like when is it ADHD and when is it ASD, and we're talking matters of degree. Like when they screen younger kids, they'll ask if anyone has ever suggested to you the dc was deaf or needed a hearing test. That degree of wow, he really should have heard me, he really should have snapped out and replied.

It's definitely an interesting question what would improve with ADHD meds. They can also bring out anxiety that is already there. They aren't going to cause it technically, but if it's there it can come out further. But cross that bridge when you come to it. Main thing is to realize the school can't legally tell you to go get meds. They just have to deal with what shows up on their doorstep. Medical questions like that are taken to the ped.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got an email back from the person over special needs (very difficult to deal with). 

I’ll paraphrase. She said I attended a MET meeting in Oct. to determine if a disability was suspected and all present had to agree. They did not and she said she was waiting on me to send copies of my previous info from private evals if they would determine the learning disability. 

That letter made me think “BS.” Ok I had the documents and they didn’t exactly prove “learning disability” but they had a copy machine in the building I’m sure if they wanted copies. I can forward files to them at this time to review she said (again I don’t think any of that paperwork will prove anything). 

Is she out of line? They all have to suspect a learning disability? Of course the science teacher wasn’t invited to the meeting! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

 My dd does the second part still -- she responds inappropriately (how are you? Yes, beautiful weather!) She has Inattentive adhd.  She had all the similar problems in class -- always missed key information, forgot report cards, forgot that school was cancelled, etc.  Especially if the classroom is noisy -- it takes a lot of energy to get through a loud, stressful school day.  Her working memory tested forty points lower than her highest score. She's got lots of issues following multiple step directions (doesn't happen).  

Getting her attention was very difficult when she was a kid. It usually involved tapping her gently and making sure her eyes were focused on me.  

She's now on Ritalin for the first time, and it's helped. She's not sure it's the final drug, and she's trying to learn other coping mechanisms, but it's definitely helped her socially (able to follow conversations and catch what people are actually saying to her, pick up non verbal language).  But it hasn't helped the getting lost or losing her stuff.  

If he has diagnosed ADHD,  has he started any treatment for it? 

The psychologist said (probably partly based on my personal preference at the time) that we don’t involve medication unless his grades were affected. The eval took place at the beginning of third grade/private school yr and he made good grades that year but organization etc. was a struggle. 

He very may well benefit from medication but I thought Ridalin wasn’t usually used anymore? 

Today when I spoke to him about church and announcements (he keeps missing vital info) he admitted he was thinking about other stuff. 

I just don’t know how often that’s the case with him not getting info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They don't have to do anything if you aren't bringing new evidence.

35 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

The psychologist said (probably partly based on my personal preference at the time) that we don’t involve medication unless his grades were affected.

Was this the school psych or a private psych? Either way, it's not their deal. That's a discussion between you and the ped. 

A lot of things can be addressed as a 504 if you can explain to them the specific problems and ask them for solutions/supports/accommodations. So anything involving EF supports would fall under a 504.

It might be helpful to think in terms of what changes you're trying to make based on evals, rather than what evals you want. The school is not going to do evals just because you want them or are curious. You'll actually have to have evidence that they need to happen. So the coor is already telling you they've considered SLDs of all types and don't see them. That doesn't answer whether he needs EF supports or whether he has pragmatics issues or is having anxiety. I would let go things they've already said you don't have evidence for and move on to things you know are happening. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

He very may well benefit from medication but I thought Ridalin wasn’t usually used anymore? 

This is a discussion you can have with your ped. There are three main types of meds and what varies is the dispensing system (some form of time release vs. not time release). Your ped is the one to help you sort through whether that's an option that should be on the table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@PeterPan and @Heigh Ho 

years ago when I went to ds’ then primary care doctor (nurse practitioner) she was a bit dismissive. I brought up ADD/ADHD concerns and she’d say she saw nothing wrong after talking to him 2 min once a year?! Finally, I brought a sheet to her with concerns including APD and she said ok he’s old enough for testing. Then she referred us to the psychologist he saw (private eval). Because he was homeschooled, the psychologist said he couldn’t give me complete results... he needed feedback from others such as teachers and coaches. I had none because he had barely been involved in any extracurriculars and had just enrolled in private school. I eventually got feedback from the third grade teacher later but it was too late to add to the eval. He said he’d have to start all over. I paid out of pocket for his testing and he ignorantly determined APD could be outruled because ds didn’t have issues with phonograms/phonetic awareness or such on one test. I later learned that’s not a true determining factor for APD. So I’ve been very annoyed with our private evals. The psychologist essentially said ds met criteria for ADD/ADHD and referred me to the CHADD website. Without the teacher feedback it was hard to say he really had it. And when I finally got feedback (I had the dr office send me a copy of the teacher’s answers) I didn’t exactly know how to weigh it. Anxiety or something similar (shyness in his case) was respresented on the form. I’ll look it up again. 

Currently ds goes to a different place with a new primary care dr and I forgot to ask about ADD/ADHD. The dr is kinda brash and I have mixed feelings on him. 

I know some peds are good for ADD questions but many simply are not. They don’t diagnose and will just refer you out. I think the new ones would literally send us back to the same place (child development clinic). My own psychiatrist said he could diagnose but doesn’t use tests and just would meet with ds and talk to him?? Observe him? I was not comfortable with that approach and did not take him. My dr didn’t do an intake form for me, just spoke to me before deciding what medication to use/issues to address. For me that approach was ok though. I have generalized anxiety and wouldn’t be surprised if ds has it as well. 

——

now what new evidence do I bring? I feel like anecdotal things are not going to be good enough for them? I will refer to the teacher eval bit they may dismiss that as it’s from third grade. Same for the eval. The school district told me while I was homeschooling him for 4th that my paperwork was too dated. I feel like I don’t have much. 

Edited by heartlikealion
Typos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

The psychologist said (probably partly based on my personal preference at the time) that we don’t involve medication unless his grades were affected. The eval took place at the beginning of third grade/private school yr and he made good grades that year but organization etc. was a struggle. 

He very may well benefit from medication but I thought Ridalin wasn’t usually used anymore? 

Today when I spoke to him about church and announcements (he keeps missing vital info) he admitted he was thinking about other stuff. 

I just don’t know how often that’s the case with him not getting info.

My dd's grades aren't really affected (she has a high IQ and compensates and is very driven academically) but the amount of effort it takes to get those results is much higher than her peers.  It's extremely draining, plus her self-esteem was greatly affected in middle school (she has combination type) because she couldn't regulate the things she said or did and knew people thought she was weird.  And when hormones hit, the emotional regulation is a huge issue at home.  I wish we had known and pursued meds when she was younger, even though she carried around a 3.5 gpa in middle school.  Our home life was miserable.

Her pediatrician probably wouldn't have diagnosed it, and her teachers definitely had no idea, other than the constant refrain of messy, disorganized, doesn't turn homework in, doesn't pay attention in class, waits until the last minute to complete assignments, etc. 

Ritalin is still in use. There are newer drugs too but she hasn't tried them yet for some reason.  She's on a pretty low dose right now, but it's helped a lot socially and in class, being able to follow conversations better. 

She says she feels like she has 8 conversations going on in her head, and when she is on medicine it's down to 1 or 2.  

When she is in an over-stimulating environment it is too much input so she can't filter out what is important and it's extremely stressful.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

They don’t diagnose and will just refer you out.

The ped has to diagnose it in order to prescribe medications. It's just that every ped has how they roll. The previous place you went to gave you good advice saying to get psych evals. It's just that the place wasn't homeschool-friendly. 

Will the pdoc prescribe meds? If he will, then sure take him in. Personally, I would take him to the pdoc (if your insurance will cover it) because one the quality of care will be higher and two it opens the door for more complex discussions like the anxiety piece. That really seems like a reasonable path. 

There IS NO doggone absolute, wow we ran blood and this is what it is "test" for ADHD. You're looking at clusters of symptoms and assumptions. When you're asking a school, the question is what do you want to have happen? When you're asking an MD, the question is do you want meds? You've already had a psych say it's probably ADHD and that he wanted more evidence but sure it is. That was all he felt he could legally do. So I see no issue in talking with the pdoc and taking him in to the pdoc. If you can get coverage for that, it's a logical step and could result in good care.

35 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

now what new evidence do I bring?

Well what are you trying to make happen? You want to make evals happen, so you need evidence that something is affecting his ability to access his education. So for instance if he has zero friends and is struggling with anxiety and depression and they don't realize this, then that's evidence you can bring that they have to do evals. Maybe he's coming home telling you things and you have data they don't. That's evidence. Or you see things like he's cutting or not responding to pain or other things you see creating a danger to himself. That could be evidence. Or he's getting in trouble for behaviors and you're connecting it with something else. He's having trouble with his locker because it's noisy or rushed or they push or... They have to have a reason that compels them to run evals. Make lists of what you're seeing and group them under general categories like verbal, non-verbal, and social.

You could also take in the pdoc diagnosis and your list of what you're seeing, sure. 

39 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

APD could be outruled because ds didn’t have issues with phonograms/phonetic awareness or such on one test.

But the screening tools are the screening tools. It's not helpful to say the explanation has to be APD, because it might not be. He might just be checking out and not attending. 

I will tell you that my dd was the type where some people would say oh do you think it's APD? Well I took her to Colorado to Able Kids, doesn't get any bigger than that, lol. Took her out there, and the ONLY thing she had issues with was background noise, which we already knew. It's not like the testing turns up hidden things. The school is right that you'd probably be seeing the effects in his school work if it were happening. Now we got a filter for her and it's brilliant. But no, this idea that all ADHD is really APD and that all ADHD kids will test as having APD just isn't correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me explain myself. 

In my mind: 

There’s an actual test for APD. I’d rather outrule that than just start medicating him and assuming ADD is the sole explanation. 

I am still hesitant to medicate. So given that, what is the benefit of involving the ped? 

Noe regarding the dr and APD. I was not saying da had APD. I was saying it was false to *outrule* it based on his ability to do fine with phonetic awareness/phonics. I asked about APD and the dr said to me that APD was not a concern because he wouldn’t have done well on that section of a test. He was wrong to say that. He didn’t know any better. The audiologist and even a hive member told me that conclusion was not right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

What's your evidence that APD testing needs to be done?  If you are paying for it out of your pocket, you can find someone to do it, but if not you need evidence to justify someone else spending their scarce resources.

Years of having to repeat things, difficulty with reading comprehension (a curriculum and sometimes AR tests and read alouds with me in the past). He says he doesn’t struggle with RC much now though so I don’t know. I might give him some worksheets from our old curriculum and see how he does. We never finished it because it was torture. 

Difficulty remembering sequences of numbers, words, directions. All that was confirmed at the university. Like he might remember the last one or two words and the first but lose the ones on the middle of the sequence. Or he might only recall the last ones heard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Honestly, you're just describing normal symptoms of ADHD.

Maybe or maybe an overlap. I’ve read lots of symptoms of APD. Appearing to have a hearing problem, etc. 

Like I said I don’t know what it is. But I wanted to outrule APD before blaming it all on ADD. Maybe that’s an unpopular approach but so what. At the end of the day I might just have to pay for it myself, I know. 

I am still unsure how much of the focus issue can be overcome when a child is paying attention. I had to repeat myself over and over with read alouds a few years ago and gave up. It seemed excessive to me... but I’m not an ADD expert. Like we couldn’t get through a page at a time sometimes without stopping and repeating. 

Edited by heartlikealion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What would really suck is if you paid $700 cash and got told no on the APD. That would really suck. 

Would your insurance cover ASD testing? If you want the more global explanation, that's it. I'm just saying you're not saying APD symptoms at all. It's in a part of the brain that messes with language processing, and there's usually usually usually going to be a significant effect on dichotic listening. My dd had the dichotic listening issue and none of the rest. But when your psych and the school are saying they should see more effect (on phonological processing, on language), they're right. They're not shooting the breeze. You're not describing that.

You're saying he struggles with attention and sometimes seems in his own world. That in his own world part is the aut of autism. It's the literal definition of it. 

Can you see if a university will actually do the full APD screening or testing (SCAN3, whtever) for free? Maybe if you drive? Seems to me even if you drive it will still be cheaper than that $700. That's a ton of money. 

What I would do in the meantime is take him to the pdoc, see what the pdoc thinks, and see if the pdoc would refer him to an ASD clinic for full evals. Then you could get language, psych, OT everything under one room, comprehensive evals. I would be seeing what you can get done that your insurance will cover. If the insurance will cover for him to see the pdoc, see the pdoc and get guidance on the next steps. That would be my two cents.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

convert the words to visual/spatial for processing, and he needed to do so.

Just as a total aside, I hear you on the difficulty that causes! My dd had so many bizarre complaints that never really landed her anywhere, weren't fitting into categories. She has issues with how her brain processes and things bogging down. She concluded with her own research that she has synesthesia. But I think for op it's sort of a pit to fall into to say there must be a term and there must be a term NOW. Sometimes there's not a term or it's a term that becomes apparent over the long-haul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

I wondered about autism, but what they decided was IQ...the kid was thinking and so busy thinking he didn't respond if they didn't get his attention first. 

That book Let Me Hear Your Voice was really profound for me. It's where I realized that the aut of autism was that withdrawal. But the line between ADHD and ASD is fuzzy, with the most extreme ADHD merging in. And they are finally getting explanations on the slow transitions, etc. Show talks about this in                                             Teaching Your Child with Love and Skill: A Guide for Parents and Other Educators of Children With Autism, Including Moderate to Severe Autism                                       If you haven't read it, it's another good read. She's an MD. 

It's when I see the level 3 kids and the most severe presentation that I can look at my own and see it. And it's true, there's a lot of that crunchy genius gig. But I don't think that's it. And I think it's ok for that to be a journey, understanding where you are, who you are. It's not like something that has to be sorted out. It's more a journey for some people, which is fine.

8 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

Sure explains a lot of my childhood where my mother kept yelling I was too sensitive.

Yeah, there was something I wanted to say to my ds yesterday that he needed to do better, and I was thinking back to things my mom said to me. I can look at those things now and know she was moralizing things that were intrinsic to me, things that weren't going to change. I do just one thing at a time and that's really it, and she was SO ADAMANT that it was a moral failing and that I really had to learn to do more things at the same time, lol. Nope, 35 years later still not.

I don't remember what I was getting ready to slam ds about, but it really stopped me. If it's intrinsic to who he is, then it may just stay that way and that may just have to be ok.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t know, guys. I’m at a loss. He doesn’t seem exactly autistic to me but there have been times we questioned if he was on the spectrum. I joined a group once online about autism and it didn’t clear anything up for me about ds, really. 

When dd had to do checklists (autism checklists) at normal checkups I don’t think those things rang a bell for me with ds. They didn’t apply to dd, either. 

The iready program is for various subjects. He set me straight and said it’s in the classroom he sometimes finishes early but in the computer lab you work on iready for the full 40 min and it will just move you up as you go. He said he’s in 6th grade language arts and math on iready. He said he was getting low grades on the reading comprehension earlier in the school yr on it but much better now. He thinks he went from like 60s to like 80s now. I asked if the program read to him or he read to himself. You can do it either way but he prefers to read it to himself. This is no surprise to me. We used to do time4learning.com at home and I think he liked reading the questions even if there was a voice reading to him. 

So you guys think this is a waste of time because he’s managing? I just hate the idea that I had/have a chance to help and blew it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Late to the party here but I don't see where anyone asked - has he had a FULL Audiology test done - in the booth.  This is covered under your insurance.  This is not the "raise your hand when you hear the sound" kind of testing.  Now, some Audiologists are trained to do both the full audiology and the APD and some are not.  I'd start with a full audiology test - just because you think he can hear everything does not mean he is actually hearing all the words spoken around him.  My ds had severe hearing loss - severe - and it wasn't found until he was 15 years old!  He was that good at reading lips and other skills to figure out conversation nuances, etc.  I didn't think he had a hearing problem either.  We weren't turning up the tv sound, or having to yell directions but now, hindsight when I watch old videos I do, indeed, see indicative signs.  Mostly in the delay when telling him something and if we tell him something - even today - not facing him with his fancy hearing aides - pretty much guaranteed he didn't hear us.  And the immature behaviors were very common because when kids have a disability/delay the brain halts maturing until it is identified and remediated in some way and then the brain begins, once again, to mature.  My ds always acted much younger than his same-age peers and preferred hanging with those who were younger or much older adults who spoke slower and tended to have face to face conversations versus groups of teens all talking at once.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...