nm

[Pen]

I think this is worth reading and considering:

https://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/dog-health-care-live-outside

I don’t 100% agree with it.  I live in an area with working Livestock Guards who seem to be content outside with their flocks...but they are never actually alone.  They either are surrounded by their flock, with whom they have some bond, or are with their people, or both.  

[Jess4879]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

Post script— a little longer and my thought is, even if she had a professional trainer/behaviorist , it isn’t a placement that will work.

She won’t be able to be an indoor dog with your family .  That actually really should have been determined at start that Collies are one of many breeds that needs not to be an outside away from family dog and shouldn’t have been chosen in first place.  Even if she were a sound collie, which she may not be.

.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Jess4879

[Pen]

39 minutes ago, Jess4879 said:

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true.  Hubby had a bordie collie he raised from a pup that lived outside only.  His parents also had collie's on the farm. My aunt & my grandparents have had both bordie collie and english collies.  I am more than aware of what google indicates about this breed, but have also known many in real life and google got this one wrong. We are far from experts, but this is not our first dog by any means and this pup appealed to use because she looked like a collie - who typically bonds with their family and is very loyal.  She is not showing these characteristics.  At all.  Which is why I posted. I know I'm defensive, and I'm sorry.  I am really struggling with this right now because we want this pup.  We want her to work for us and be happy.  We are not stupid people that didn't do ample research.  We used a rescue in order to give a dog a chance.  We were making the best decisions we could.  We have never had to tie a dog before.  It sucks.  I'm worried she'll bite my kids.  My friend had to come over the other day and reminded her kids they needed to be cautious of our dog. I feel like crap. 

 

I do understand that you made best choice you could.  

And I do understand that a generation ago it was thought that dogs belong outside.  

I understand being afraid she’ll bite the kids.

 I think, given what you described, that it * is * realistic  to worry about that.

That is part of why after reflecting I ended up thinking she would be best off getting rehomed to a no livestock, no children situation before she does do that.  And even if she doesn’t because the stressful situation is probably not good for you or for her either.   I am not certain that even if you had an excellent trainer / behaviorist next door that you will get to where you feel she’s reliably past this having any concern about possibly biting a child.  

I missed that she came from a rescue.  I suggest contacting them ASAP as next step... maybe they can help toward needed training etc, or maybe can place her with a family without kids...

 And I am writing from POV of both having had a dog who worked through a bad fear stage successfully, but also a dog who had to be euthanized for aggression even after work with professionals, but who might have been able to be successful in a no kids, no other dogs home.  

.  

ETA the dogs I’ve seen do well as outdoor dogs either had other animals, ideally other dogs of same type (eg more than one malamute, more than one foxhound, more than one border collie) to keep company with— or had very different “past generation” lifestyle, like freedom to explore neighborhoods on their own, visit with other free roaming dog friends and arrive home tired and happy after a long day of doggy adventures... or farm life with most of day keeping company with farmer, then bedded down at night in barn with horses...

Edited March 24, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

Dealing with Fear Aggression:

https://www.thesprucepets.com/puppy-fear-aggression-2804570

 

[J-rap]

15 hours ago, Lizzie in Ma said:

My heart went out to you on this one.  We got a Catahoula mix to be our youngest's therapy dog.  We socialized like crazy, we trained, we worked with him every single day.  We had him on anxiety meds.  He had specialized training and was 100% on every command with voice or gesture.  He was a blessing to us and our daughter in every way.  We adored him more than I can ever tell you. He was sweet and funny and loving and the perfect therapy dog.

Around 5 months, he started to react to people differently.  Sometimes strangers, sometimes people he knew and liked.  His hackles would go up and he would lunge at them.  We actually had to get rid of the in home therapist, because he totally hated her and then Jenna didn't trust her because of it.  We began to put him in PLACE any time someone other than family would come in and usually he was fine after a bit.  But the behavior continued.  We took him to our vet several times for complete work ups, we spoke with his trainer, we did everything right.  Everything. And yet he still had some scary behaviors and there were some near misses.

Then one morning, my husband bent down to pat him, as all of us did a million times a day, and the dog lost it and savaged his arm.  Our default had always been, well, he'd never hurt one of us.  But he did, badly.  And my prayer was thank God it wasn't Jenna.

We called everyone.  the vet, the trainer, the place we adopted him from.  Everyone assured us that we had done every single thing right.  The lady at the rescue said that every once in awhile a puppy is born who isn't quite right and you don't generally know it until it's too late.  We agonized over what to do.

We ended up raising $5,000, (fully half was given by our precious oldest daughter from her wedding money) and we took him to Spirit Animal Sanctuary in New York where he will live out his life.  We couldn't have him put down. it would have sent youngest back to inpatient.  And frankly, none of us are over it yet and we still wonder if somehow we could have kept him.  Jenna and I literally cried ourselves to sleep for months. We all felt he couldn't go to anywhere that would have the goal of adopting him out.  We know he is happy there, we get regular updates but it is really hard.

It was the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my entire dog owning life and it almost sent Jenna back into inpatient.  That dog was the only thing she lived for, her only reason, for many months.  He saved her life.

I am writing to share this because sometimes, apparently, you can do everything right and it still doesn't work out.  And I am sorry and I hope you are able to figure it out.

I am so, so sorry.  Believe me, I understand.  We went through a very, very similar situation (I'll explain it in my next post).  It was absolutely heartbreaking.  We had trained several dogs before and really KNEW what we were doing.  Our poor dog definitely had something similar to a mental illness.  He couldn't help himself.   We tried and tried and tried until there was nothing more we could do.  Our hearts really broke for him.  It was truly one of the most heart-wrenching things I've ever been through.  So I totally understand.

[J-rap]

Hello, I'm finally coming back to respond more! -- Sorry it has taken me so long!

We had an Australian shepherd that we got from a sweet family.  They raised both the mom and dad and it was a litter of around 6.   This was on a farm with lots of animals and lots of young kids, so pups were exposed to a lot of things from day 1.  The family made sure to hold the pups and walk them and get them used to lots of things.  When we went out there for the first time, our pup was the only one left.  He was probably 10 weeks old or so.  He was a little shy, but super sweet.  We took him home and we gently exposed him to our entire family of 9.  He warmed up to everyone quickly and never showed any signs of aggression.  He let our kids roll around on the ground with him, hugging him, smothering him with kisses...  He never minded it.  We were all together during those early weeks with him, took him everywhere, gave him lots of love and attention, and he was a great little pup!  He was quite shy in new settings but as long as he was with even just one of us, he was fine.  Nothing stood out as unusual.  He met new people regularly and was fine with them, although he'd tend to stay very close to a family member.  I was with him almost 100% of the time myself, at least in the background.  He never had any bad experiences with people treating him harshly, or scaring him.  

Then one day, at maybe 4 months, a new friend came over who reached out and pet our little Aussie (just like several other friends had before), and our pup reacted absolutely bizarrely, like he was a different dog.  And this was just a 4 month old pup!  He snarled and let out a growl that seemed really freakish for a young pup, and then lunged at the friend and tried to bite him.  It was really strange (the friend was a very kind and gentle guy, too).  We had already started him in puppy classes so he'd be exposed to other dogs, had taken him to lots of places to socialize him, so this was really unusual.   Then a few weeks later, we were at a park having a picnic and he was on a long rope.  He seemed very content and playful as we all sat around.  A young woman happened to pass, and she smiled and waved at us and then slowly walked past us although didn't approach us.  Our pup suddenly completely freaked out... the change was instant and drastic.  He tore at her in a split second, broke free of his rope, and attacked her.  He actually ripped a big chunk of her dress right off of her.   He was less than half a year old!

This behavior seemed very unusual and scary, and I was starting to become very unsettled by it.  I forgot to mention that we had gone back to the family farm where we had gotten him a few times (just to visit), and he was fine.  But after this behavior began, the very next time I brought him there, he attacked one of their chickens out of the blue and killed it.  (During the other visits he didn't mind the chickens at all.)  The next time I visited the farm, he ferociously attacked the UPS man.  

I began taking him to an animal behaviorist in our area.  We live in a small rural community and don't have a lot of options, but I wanted to try everything I could.  I also went up and down our neighborhood and gave our neighbors treats to give him whenever they passed so that he'd always associate people with positive things.  I even did that with our mailman!  I'd take him on walks, and whenever I was even close to another person and he was quiet and seemed relaxed, I gave him a treat to reinforce that association.   Anyway, I worked on many different things with the behaviorist.  We were gentle yet firm, doing everything the behaviorist told us.  We exercised him a lot, often several times each day.

My dh has a limp due to a disability, and he walks down the stairs slowly.  (We live in a two-story house.)  One day,  my dh was slowly walking down the stairs, and I noticed our dog, on the first floor looking up at the stairs, getting a kind of glazed look in his eyes.  He was looking at my dh differently, and appeared almost ready to attack him.  It was very scary.  He didn't attack him, but he had a very different look in his eyes that frightened me.   My dh is a gentle person, and had only treated our pup lovingly.  Never a harsh word or touch, only a kind, always-positive trainer.  Up until this time, our pup seemed quite attached to him.  From then on though, whenever my dh first walked down the stairs in the morning, our pup got that strange look, and I could hear a low growl which was new.  He began to stare hard with a scary look in his eyes at my dh as he walked down the stairs, and I knew I couldn't trust him anymore.  I had to restrict him more and more, and never let him out of my site.  

About a month later, a dear friend happened to walk into our house unannounced.  I had been keeping a very close eye on our Aussie at all times, always by my side, or keeping him in the kitchen if he was in the house and I had to be somewhere else.   On that particular day, I had just let him inside from the backyard and hadn't yet closed the doors of the kitchen.  He heard the friend walk into the front hall, and before I could do anything, he threw himself at our friend, attacking him with all his might.  He was very violent, like a mad-dog.  Completely out of control   He tore at his leg and ripped his pants.  It was horrible.  He attached himself to his thigh, and bit hard, drawing blood.  It all happened so fast, the only way I could stop him was to throw myself on him.  

Our pup had never minded family members taking his food, or taking away a toy, etc.  He didn't mind being on a leash, being in the car with us, etc.  It wasn't about him being possessive.  For him, it was simply like a new "fear awareness" had suddenly settled in -- with strangers, unusual movements (my dh limping), other animals, etc.  

This was all before he was even a year old.  We had owned many dogs previously, and had never experienced this before.    I probably didn't need all of these examples and sorry this has gotten long!  But I wanted to give you a clear idea of the progression.  In the end, we weren't able to keep the dog.  If it had been strangers only, I maybe would have tried to work with him a little longer.  But I'd become paranoid that he would attack my dh.   So this is what I wanted to tell you:   I did a lot of research and learned that Aussies in particular will now and then have a weird freakish recessive gene in them.  Aussies (and I assume most cattle dogs) are bred to act on instinct.  So, they don't take the time to hesitate and then decide;  they just act.  Most of the time this is just what they should be doing.  But if they have this weird recessive aggression gene in them, it causes them to act ferociously so quickly, that it gives you no absolutely no time to act.  It gives THEM no time to hesitate.  It's like, as Mercy said, a screw was loose.  It appeared to be completely uncontrollable.   It's a freakish aggression that results from shyness.

I spoke to the farm family about this (where he was from), and they were trying to figure it out as well.  This had been their first litter, so they were nervous about having more now.  They said they believed that the reason he was adopted out last was because he was the shy one.  The other pups in the litter hadn't been shy at all, and they were all growing up fine.  It was just our shy pup who was acting violently.

Anyway, I know this doesn't sound very encouraging.  But, I wanted to let you know that if it continues, it's not because of anything you did or didn't do...  You can beat yourself up about trying to figure out what you did wrong, but try not to.  If it does continue, it's most likely something like this recessive gene that is just in them, and because cattle dogs act extremely quickly and instinctively, you don't have even a second to step in and re-direct them. 

I likened it to a mental illness in a human, where it's genetically in them latent and then in teens or 20's it just kicks in.  We didn't raise this pup any differently than all of our others, and felt we did everything we could to help him.   My heart absolutely broke for this pup, because I know he couldn't help it at all.  It just seemed to take control over him.  It took me a long, long time to get over it.  I just loved that little guy.  

If our situation had been different, I maybe would have continued trying...  Other people have suggested ideas here and I'd certainly try them.   Medication to help calm them is an interesting idea.  I couldn't find anyone in our area who could or was willing to work with him anymore, and given my dh's disability and other things, I didn't feel I could take any more chances.

I've never for one minute blamed our sweet Aussie for being the way he was.  I know he couldn't help it.  

I don't want to discourage you at all, and I think there are a lot of things you can try still.  But I wanted to pass on what I had learned about this gene that some Aussies have.  I've read about it in several places, and it's a real thing.  

You take care... I know how difficult this is.  Very best of luck to you!!

[J-rap]

Gosh, I really feel badly that since my last post, the OP took away all of her comments.  I'm really sorry -- I didn't mean to be gloom and doom.  I think you had some really good suggestions from other posters!  I mostly wanted to share our experience because I know how heartbreaking it can be, but sometimes it really is just a weird freakish gene that the dog has, and I didn't want you to beat yourself up about not doing something right.  

[Lizzie in Ma]

5 hours ago, J-rap said:

Gosh, I really feel badly that since my last post, the OP took away all of her comments.  I'm really sorry -- I didn't mean to be gloom and doom.  I think you had some really good suggestions from other posters!  I mostly wanted to share our experience because I know how heartbreaking it can be, but sometimes it really is just a weird freakish gene that the dog has, and I didn't want you to beat yourself up about not doing something right.  

That is why  I posted too. 

[Pen]

10 hours ago, J-rap said:

Gosh, I really feel badly that since my last post, the OP took away all of her comments.  I'm really sorry -- I didn't mean to be gloom and doom.  I think you had some really good suggestions from other posters!  I mostly wanted to share our experience because I know how heartbreaking it can be, but sometimes it really is just a weird freakish gene that the dog has, and I didn't want you to beat yourself up about not doing something right.  

 

Unless @Jess4879 explains, I don’t think we can assume it to be due to your post, despite the time correlated.  I thought maybe it was because of my posts that she didn’t like regarding it being hard on many / most dogs to be isolated outdoors. 

But the reality is that there are some dogs that aren’t temperamentally sound.  And I saw a situation like you describe with a neighborhood Aussie as well.  With experienced dog owners, professional behaviorists consulted, etc.   Sort of a Jekyll and Hyde dog.  

[ktgrok]

Agreeing that some dogs just are not safe. And some dogs are not safe in some environments...so a dog that might be a reasonable risk for a childless person on a ranch would be a total no go for a family with 4 small children in a busy suburb, etc. 

Agreeing that a professional is needed, which may mean going out of area. Feel free to message me if you want to discuss further, OP. And honestly, this puppy may not be the right fit for your home. Doesn't make you bad dog owners, but a bad fit.