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Ktgrok

another PSA/Update on dog food and Canine Dilated Cardiomyopathy

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2 hours ago, umsami said:

That is a really snarky and cruel comment.  I'm guessing you have zero idea about the causes of morbid obesity.  You realize that there is no diet out there that has been proven in any long term study to lead to significant weight loss not only in the morbidly obese, but the obese category?   Weight loss drugs are continued a success if they cause a 10% weight loss... and usually one looks at a 6 month to 12 month period.   Not a lifetime.  Your FIL would be 360 pounds and considered a "success".    The only thing likely to help somebody of that size is a bariatric operation known as the duodenal switch, which can be difficult to get insurance approval for and has its own complications.  The duodenal switch means that he will permanently remove 70-90% of his stomach as well as bypass at least 2/3rds of his small intestine.  

 

umsami, I truly apologize for offending.  You have to realize that is one small part of him, as you know, which I won't get into at this time.  Other than to say he was also diagnosed with liver cancer just a few hours after I posted this.  So if you will forgive what I said and keep him in your thoughts, prayers, mojo or whatever, for he is the only grandparent my kids have ever known.  However frustrating as he is.  

I also edited my original post.

 

Edited by ZiMom
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2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, one distinction I found in the study on Golden Retrievers was that all the foods involved were ones where not only were there no feeding trials, but they also came to their "formulated to meet guidelines" standpoint just by looking at the recipe, rather than analyzing the actual food. 

There are companies that do analyze the actual food, even if they don't meet all the WSAVA guidelines. I do think that's a good middle ground and worth asking a company about. Having a lab analyze the food is a better safety measure than hoping the recipe was formulated properly, with no math errors, etc. 

Two I think that do analyze the food are Bil-Jac and Victor. 

Now that is VERY interesting to me. Especially considering that (1) many of the smaller pet food companies don't have their own manufacturing facilities and so contract that out and (2) I suspect many of those companies don't have a full time QA person of their own in the manufacturing facility, which makes it difficult to impossible for them to know that the manufacturer is including the ingredients (and the right quality level of those ingredients) in their food. Doing a food analysis would (or should) pick up on problems.

The above issue--contracted manufacturers substituting lower quality, less expensive ingredients for the ones specified--was part of the problems in the huge 2007 melamine tainted pet food recalls. And it's one reason I harp on checking out a pet food company and who manufactures their food and what type of QA they have in place. A superb ingredients list doesn't mean squat if the food doesn't actually contain those ingredients, or if they're contaminated.

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My neighbor (owner of a dog boarding business that I help out with) raw feeds her own dogs. But she is having such a hard time tracking down why her boxer is losing hair. Now it might not be food related but st this point her naturopathic vet thinks that it is the food. She has been surprised with the amount of resistance she’s had with finding out information on the source of the raw foods. Some of the beef especially have been culled dairy calves (all the males since they won’t grow up to be dairy cows) that are ground up nose to tail. She doesn’t go out to the local butcher for her raw foods but has bought from companies that cater to the raw pet food market because it is less expensive. None of them have a nutritionist on staff. 

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This is whole subject landed in my in box over a month ago when a friend, whose dog was affected by DCM, sent me some links.  I spoke with our vet and immediately started the process of switching their food from a boutique brand (I thought I was making the best choice) to another brand.  My golden looks better on his new food.  DH remarked the other day that the dog's coat is better, his overall body condition looks better (it looked good before, but we always had trouble keeping him at ideal weight...now we don't), and he is overall more active.  One of our senior dogs, who has some health issues, seems to have more energy.  I'm not seeing great improvements in our other senior dog, but she has always been in good body condition and energetic. 

I don't know the "whys and wherefores" of dog food.  It has been a difficult search process.  I didn't want a super high protein food.   Didn't want the grains and legumes that were suspected.  Didn't want a company known for recalls.  Didn't want a food the dogs would refuse to eat.  Didn't want questionable ingredients.  Did I mention it has been a difficult search.  Not to mention one of my senior dogs needs mostly wet food. 

I do find grilled chicken to be well received by all the dogs 🙂

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10 minutes ago, HollyDay said:

This is whole subject landed in my in box over a month ago when a friend, whose dog was affected by DCM, sent me some links.  I spoke with our vet and immediately started the process of switching their food from a boutique brand (I thought I was making the best choice) to another brand.  My golden looks better on his new food.  DH remarked the other day that the dog's coat is better, his overall body condition looks better (it looked good before, but we always had trouble keeping him at ideal weight...now we don't), and he is overall more active.  One of our senior dogs, who has some health issues, seems to have more energy.  I'm not seeing great improvements in our other senior dog, but she has always been in good body condition and energetic. 

I don't know the "whys and wherefores" of dog food.  It has been a difficult search process.  I didn't want a super high protein food.   Didn't want the grains and legumes that were suspected.  Didn't want a company known for recalls.  Didn't want a food the dogs would refuse to eat.  Didn't want questionable ingredients.  Did I mention it has been a difficult search.  Not to mention one of my senior dogs needs mostly wet food. 

I do find grilled chicken to be well received by all the dogs 🙂

What are you using now?

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I have to buy dog food today, because as I've been following this thread, we have run low.  I switched to BB freedom grain free beef, alternating with raw with honest kitchen dehydrated topper when one of my dogs had lost most of her hair and had lots of hot spots, etc.  She totally has healed from that, and doesn't chew her feet nearly as much, either.  I want to rotate between some other brands, as y'all are saying here, so have been looking some over.  I wanted to buy Bil-Jac today, after reading this thread and some of the links, but I notice the first three ingredients are chicken, chicken by-products, and corn meal.  The second two of those wouldn't be in my preferred list of ingredients.  So, why is Bil-Jac a good choice?  

Both of my dogs are small and the one who reacts totally reacts to pork and lamb.  I started noticing her issues while feeding Whole Earth Farms, but didn't realize pork and lamb were part of the problem.

Edited by myblessings4

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This thread has made me nervous regarding our flat Golden Doodle, who appears just to be a small Golden Retriever.  She typically eats Kirkland's grain free salmon/sweet potato dog food...and has done well.  In the past she's eaten Taste of the Wild and Nature's Recipe (also both grain free).  We almost always do some kind of topper....an egg, boiled chicken, some mixed veggies, canned dog food, etc.

Might be time to buy a new bag of food and mix it in with what we have left.  

Almost all of the Doodle Moms I know use Fromm, Merrick, Orijen, or Acana.  

Wondering what to switch to.  I was leaning towards Bil-Jac, but maybe I'll just go Purina Pro Plan or even Purina One or Blue Buffalo (Weren't they bought by a big guy?) ?   Really torn right now.  

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8 minutes ago, umsami said:

This thread has made me nervous regarding our flat Golden Doodle, who appears just to be a small Golden Retriever.  She typically eats Kirkland's grain free salmon/sweet potato dog food...and has done well.  In the past she's eaten Taste of the Wild and Nature's Recipe (also both grain free).  We almost always do some kind of topper....an egg, boiled chicken, some mixed veggies, canned dog food, etc.

Might be time to buy a new bag of food and mix it in with what we have left.  

Almost all of the Doodle Moms I know use Fromm, Merrick, Orijen, or Acana.  

Wondering what to switch to.  I was leaning towards Bil-Jac, but maybe I'll just go Purina Pro Plan or even Purina One or Blue Buffalo (Weren't they bought by a big guy?) ?   Really torn right now.  

Me, too. Our puppy is almost 9 months old and has eaten the Costco grain-free puppy since we got her. I will probably keep her on it until she's a year but I don't know what to think or do.

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5 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Good points, and ones that (unfortunately) IME raw feeders are all too eager to overlook or try to worm their way out of.

I'm very much a "do what works for the dog you have" person. I've seen dogs thrive and suffer on all sorts of diets. I couldn't begin to count the number of slim, vibrant, bursting with energy, absolutely-the-pictures-of-health looking dogs I've known who had eaten nothing but Dog Chow all their lives. Which to my way of thinking proves nothing other than dogs can thrive on lots of ways of eating. Would I feed Dog Chow because somebody's picture-of-health dog ate it? No. I'm absolutely positive many--probably most--of us who've posted on this thread could say the same about our dogs as Bill says about his, and I bet very few of us feed the same food or type of diet.

Also IME it's the norm for sporting breed dogs to be active (usually super, super active), slim and vibrant well into their teen years. Unless a young Vizsla was really maltreated . .  what Bill describes is exactly what I would expect to see. Our Brittany had more energy when he turned 14 than many dogs have when they're one. He also never needed a teeth cleaning. Ever. Even after kidney and liver disease started taking their toll his fur was still thick and glossy, etc. He wasn't unusual for his breed. 

Our previous dog, who looked like a shepherd/deep red collie mix ate a low-mid cost dry kibble for half his life. We adopted him from a shelter, and estimated he was 12 when he developed liver disease. He always had the whitest teeth, the shiniest fur, the cleanest skin. Always trim. Seriously, this dog had no smells whatsoever, and never shed. It was like dirt could not stick to him. He did not like to swim, though. I bathed him no more than 3 times a year. I wish I’d known what his parents were. 

525D8D1D-AB49-4D12-9339-EE595430A1AE.jpeg

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19 hours ago, Pen said:

@Spy Car

 

As a general matter, I do think a (proper) raw diet would be most appropriate and best for dogs.  I’ve done it to some degree, and would do it entirely if I could.

The trainer we worked with, who also bred dogs, switched to raw feeding and I got onto it initially from him as he related that on raw his genetically similar dogs did seem to be doing better than their commercial kibble relatives. 

However, I’m wondering about some of what you are attributing to raw diet.  

Is your dog more trim and fit than his own littermates?

I’ve never seen an overweight Vizsla, Weimaraner, certain other breeds too...  every one I’ve seen, has been slim and athletic.  

To me that seems likely to be breed as much as food.    ????

My dog too is slim, trim, and, except for his allergy reactions , shiny and healthy looking and puppyish acting, very white teeth, and also often taken to be much younger than he is (6.5 years), even by new vets, and even with grey now starting 😥on his muzzle.  

In contrast, some Labrador retrievers I’ve known, especially show rather than field line ones, are first of all naturally more bulky looking, and second don’t seem to have a sense of satiation, a stop eating point.  And seem to have an obesity tendency.  Even on raw.  

Could be this is partly related to where I live, and what I see—we are rural, so if I see a Vizsla or Weimaraner it tends to be because owner wanted a running companion and I see the ones who are out getting exercise.  If there are any at home as fat couch potatoes, I would not see them.  

And then, a lot of what I see while driving and so on,  Great Pyrenees and other livestock guard dogs, are so furry that it’s hard to tell whether the inner dog is fat or thin.  Though whatever they eat, they tend to look like the picture of health in their own way.  

Vizslas and Weimaraners (I've owned both) should naturally run lean and well-muscled. That certainly is their natural breed disposition. The sad reality is the vast majority of Vs and Ws (as with all dogs in America) tend to be overweight, if not obese. The health consequences are dire.

It has been some time since seeing littermates and one half-sibling of my Vizsla. Even years back the difference in the condition of kibble fed siblings was apparent. Not subtle. I've also attended many Vizsla meetups. I can always spot the raw fed Vs.

I do attribute the differences to diet. Not castrating males is also a huge plus to health. 

I have met raw fed Labs. Yes, they are blockier than Vs. However, they look like athletes. They still have a tuck and do not carry a thick fat layer. They look very different than the obese Labs that have come to be accepted as "normal." Total difference in stamina and--most importantly to me--is they don't seem set up to have the crippling joint problems common in Labs. It breaks my heart to see so many barely-senior Labs hobbling around with bad hips and bad knees. Lab owners I know discuss their dog's orthopedic surgeons the way parents once discussed their children's orthodontists. The incidence of CCL (ligament) tears is ridiculous. 

It can be difficult to tell if "furry" breed are obese just by looking at them. The best test is to palpate the ribs to see how thick the fat layer is between the exterior and the ribs. Looking overhead for the evidence of a "tuck" (waist) is a secondary measure.

Carrying too much weight is a big health problem for dogs. Eating a high carb diet promotes obesity and actively detunes the vitality of dogs. The veterinary literature on the virtues of "fat metabolism" vs carbohydrate metabolism" is well established. Dogs have no essential needs for carbohydrates. Grains are not a positive. Replacing grains with legumes may prove to be even worse.

Bill

   

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Good points, and ones that (unfortunately) IME raw feeders are all too eager to overlook or try to worm their way out of.

I'm very much a "do what works for the dog you have" person. I've seen dogs thrive and suffer on all sorts of diets. I couldn't begin to count the number of slim, vibrant, bursting with energy, absolutely-the-pictures-of-health looking dogs I've known who had eaten nothing but Dog Chow all their lives. Which to my way of thinking proves nothing other than dogs can thrive on lots of ways of eating. Would I feed Dog Chow because somebody's picture-of-health dog ate it? No. I'm absolutely positive many--probably most--of us who've posted on this thread could say the same about our dogs as Bill says about his, and I bet very few of us feed the same food or type of diet.

Also IME it's the norm for sporting breed dogs to be active (usually super, super active), slim and vibrant well into their teen years. Unless a young Vizsla was really maltreated . .  what Bill describes is exactly what I would expect to see. Our Brittany had more energy when he turned 14 than many dogs have when they're one. He also never needed a teeth cleaning. Ever. Even after kidney and liver disease started taking their toll his fur was still thick and glossy, etc. He wasn't unusual for his breed. 

I see a lot of Vizslas, being active in breed groups. Most that I see are not in optimal condition. Most are either carrying too much weight in their middles or they are under-muscled and underdeveloped (and sometimes both).

This breed is predisposed to being super-athletes. But a bad diet can (and does) undermine the genetic predisposition. Raw-fed Vs run trim and very well-muscled.

Bill

 

 

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3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Now that is VERY interesting to me. Especially considering that (1) many of the smaller pet food companies don't have their own manufacturing facilities and so contract that out and (2) I suspect many of those companies don't have a full time QA person of their own in the manufacturing facility, which makes it difficult to impossible for them to know that the manufacturer is including the ingredients (and the right quality level of those ingredients) in their food. Doing a food analysis would (or should) pick up on problems.

The above issue--contracted manufacturers substituting lower quality, less expensive ingredients for the ones specified--was part of the problems in the huge 2007 melamine tainted pet food recalls. And it's one reason I harp on checking out a pet food company and who manufactures their food and what type of QA they have in place. A superb ingredients list doesn't mean squat if the food doesn't actually contain those ingredients, or if they're contaminated.

Yup. Also, the one article I linked pointed out that if temperatures are too high it denatures the amino acids, including the ones needed for heart health. So if the outside manufacturer is simply cooking the food at the wrong temperature it could cause a problem. And if they are not doing food analysis, they won't know. 

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

My neighbor (owner of a dog boarding business that I help out with) raw feeds her own dogs. But she is having such a hard time tracking down why her boxer is losing hair. Now it might not be food related but st this point her naturopathic vet thinks that it is the food. She has been surprised with the amount of resistance she’s had with finding out information on the source of the raw foods. Some of the beef especially have been culled dairy calves (all the males since they won’t grow up to be dairy cows) that are ground up nose to tail. She doesn’t go out to the local butcher for her raw foods but has bought from companies that cater to the raw pet food market because it is less expensive. None of them have a nutritionist on staff. 

Oh wow. Heck no. Anyone can stick a label on some cow parts and call it pet food. Doesn't mean it is safe, or properly formulated. Nope. 

3 hours ago, myblessings4 said:

I have to buy dog food today, because as I've been following this thread, we have run low.  I switched to BB freedom grain free beef, alternating with raw with honest kitchen dehydrated topper when one of my dogs had lost most of her hair and had lots of hot spots, etc.  She totally has healed from that, and doesn't chew her feet nearly as much, either.  I want to rotate between some other brands, as y'all are saying here, so have been looking some over.  I wanted to buy Bil-Jac today, after reading this thread and some of the links, but I notice the first three ingredients are chicken, chicken by-products, and corn meal.  The second two of those wouldn't be in my preferred list of ingredients.  So, why is Bil-Jac a good choice?  

Both of my dogs are small and the one who reacts totally reacts to pork and lamb.  I started noticing her issues while feeding Whole Earth Farms, but didn't realize pork and lamb were part of the problem.

The byproducts are organ meat only (they specify that on the website, and I think the bag as well). Organ meat is a REALLY important source of several vitamins/minerals and of taurine and its precursors. I have no idea how "byproducts' came to be a bad word in dog food at the same time people are special ordering tripe for their dogs, lol. So yeah, you WANT organs in dog food. In fact, one of the articles I linked pointed out that because of public distrust of "byproducts" the pet foods stopped using them, which led to lower levels of those amino acids. 

As for the corn, it is processed at low temp for a long time and very bioavailable. It has a lower glycemic index than rice, and has a long history of being in dog diets. They have a whole section on their website about why they use corn I think. 

2 hours ago, umsami said:

This thread has made me nervous regarding our flat Golden Doodle, who appears just to be a small Golden Retriever.  She typically eats Kirkland's grain free salmon/sweet potato dog food...and has done well.  In the past she's eaten Taste of the Wild and Nature's Recipe (also both grain free).  We almost always do some kind of topper....an egg, boiled chicken, some mixed veggies, canned dog food, etc.

Might be time to buy a new bag of food and mix it in with what we have left.  

Almost all of the Doodle Moms I know use Fromm, Merrick, Orijen, or Acana.  

Wondering what to switch to.  I was leaning towards Bil-Jac, but maybe I'll just go Purina Pro Plan or even Purina One or Blue Buffalo (Weren't they bought by a big guy?) ?   Really torn right now.  

From personal experience working in vet offices, Blue Buffalo seemed to cause diarrhea more than any other food, and have a lot of inconsistency from batch to batch. 

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7 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Also IME it's the norm for sporting breed dogs to be active (usually super, super active), slim and vibrant well into their teen years. Unless a young Vizsla was really maltreated . .  what Bill describes is exactly what I would expect to see. Our Brittany had more energy when he turned 14 than many dogs have when they're one. He also never needed a teeth cleaning. Ever. Even after kidney and liver disease started taking their toll his fur was still thick and glossy, etc. He wasn't unusual for his breed. 

 

6 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, one distinction I found in the study on Golden Retrievers was that all the foods involved were ones where not only were there no feeding trials, but they also came to their "formulated to meet guidelines" standpoint just by looking at the recipe, rather than analyzing the actual food. 

 

The Golden Retriever who died of what may or may not have been the type of heart problem that started this thread was beautiful and seemed very healthy until shortly before her death at, I think, 7yo.  Even then her coat and teeth were still beautiful.

Her food was Hills Science Diet.

I guess our dogs who had very sad premature (imo, premature) deaths due to something in the category sometimes termed diseases of modern life—heart failure at young age, cancer at young age—were fed consistently a particular commercial food as had been recommended to us at that time.  So maybe that’s something to avoid, no matter what the food is. And maybe has no relationship. 

 

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4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Vizslas and Weimaraners (I've owned both) should naturally run lean and well-muscled. That certainly is their natural breed disposition. The sad reality is the vast majority of Vs and Ws (as with all dogs in America) tend to be overweight, if not obese. The health consequences are dire.

It has been some time since seeing littermates and one half-sibling of my Vizsla. Even years back the difference in the condition of kibble fed siblings was apparent. Not subtle. I've also attended many Vizsla meetups. I can always spot the raw fed Vs.

 

Ok, that’s helpful. 

 

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Lab owners I know discuss their dog's orthopedic surgeons the way parents once discussed their children's orthodontists.

 

This could be another location based tendency.  Southern California.... having enough canine orthopedic specialists to make it acthing to discuss.   

Our area tends to have more “field line” Labs, perhaps still with fewer of those problems—and only one canine orthopedist I know of in area.  

 

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

It can be difficult to tell if "furry" breed are obese just by looking at them. The best test is to palpate the ribs to see how thick the fat layer is between the exterior and the ribs. Looking overhead for the evidence of a "tuck" (waist) is a secondary measure.

 

No no way would I go into a guard dog’s field, let alone palpate 😄 it anywhere.  

That said, of dogs I see it is highly likely that livestock guard dogs are getting at least a part raw diet as animals on their farms are butchered,  it seems likely they would get at least parts the humans don’t want.   

I know when I asked about tripe at a local farm we have gotten some foods from, they said it all goes to their own dogs.  

Also perhaps the livestock guards would get some raw foods from hunting a rabbit or similar now and then.  Even our dogs who live mainly inside with people do that on occasion.  

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Carrying too much weight is a big health problem for dogs. Eating a high carb diet promotes obesity and actively detunes the vitality of dogs. The veterinary literature on the virtues of "fat metabolism" vs carbohydrate metabolism" is well established.

 

Sounds like canine keto...

 

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Replacing grains with legumes may prove to be even worse.

 

Could be. 

 

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@Ktgrok  Have you tried the frozen Bil-Jac?  I saw it at Walmart by chance a few weeks ago, and then promptly forgot about it.

Is it more of a real food vs. kibble?

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41 minutes ago, umsami said:

@Ktgrok  Have you tried the frozen Bil-Jac?  I saw it at Walmart by chance a few weeks ago, and then promptly forgot about it.

Is it more of a real food vs. kibble?

I haven't, as I haven't seen it anywhere local, but am keeping my eye out. 

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27 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I haven't, as I haven't seen it anywhere local, but am keeping my eye out. 

It was in my "normal" Walmart....although not in the pet food area, just in the freezer area.  Was on a bottom shelf.  It's in a yellow bag, if memory serves.   This should tell you if it's near you in a store: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bil-Jac-Frozen-Dog-Food-5-lb/19897943

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10 hours ago, umsami said:

It was in my "normal" Walmart....although not in the pet food area, just in the freezer area.  Was on a bottom shelf.  It's in a yellow bag, if memory serves.   This should tell you if it's near you in a store: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bil-Jac-Frozen-Dog-Food-5-lb/19897943

Yeah, looks like mine doesn't have it, one further away does and a publix that isn't too far does. Might try it at some point as a treat. It does have dried bakery product, with is basically left over bread/etc. Not what many consider good nutrition, but given that dogs traditionally lived on meat scraps and leftover bread, it's pretty traditional 🙂

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8 hours ago, Pen said:

Yes, dogs have always eaten human leftover scraps, from the beginning of time. I have zero problem with dogs eating scraps, and "dried bakery product" is no more garbage than the crusts off my kids' sandwich that they didn't eat, that I may hand to the dog as a treat. Same thing, just dried and crumbled. Leftovers. Scraps. It's what dogs have always eaten.

And that article is ridiculous. They admit that non edible things can't be included in the bakery product, then go on to say "well....maybe they consider styrofoam and plastic edible". No, no one thinks plastic is edible. Its full of appeals to ignorance "well, we don't have proof it doesn't have recycled car parts and space clients,  so maybe it does". 

Edited by Ktgrok
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48 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes, dogs have always eaten human leftover scraps, from the beginning of time. I have zero problem with dogs eating scraps, and "dried bakery product" is no more garbage than the crusts off my kids' sandwich that they didn't eat, that I may hand to the dog as a treat. Same thing. Leftovers. Scraps. It's what dogs eat. 

 

 

But not much sugary type stuff until relatively recently in history — because people didn’t eat that so much either.  

If they eat scraps from a hunter gatherer meal long ago,  or a sled dog ‘s Inuit family’s meal 50 years ago, versus scraps from a McDonald’s happy meal now ...  that’s very different sort of food.  

Even now when I decide to let our dog have a leftover grilled cheese sandwich, there is added sugar in the bread (also added gluten) —at least in the type of bread they like for grilled cheese.   We do get some breads that are free of added sugar. 

 

 

 

Scraps from a commercial bakery , even if only bread, and even if sugar free bread, would be quite different than scraps from butchering a lamb or an elk.  

 

???

Edited by Pen
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On 3/21/2019 at 5:34 PM, SeaConquest said:

I've had 4 dogs in my life.

First, cocker spaniel puppy died of parvo. My idiot parents boarded him too soon when we went on vacay and I guess he didn't seroconvert to his Parvo vaccine, or he didn't have the full series. I don't know the whole story because I was in elementary school, but we were devastated when he died.

Second, cocker spaniel lived until my mother finally had him put down at age 18. He was a great dog, but it was time.

 

I was thinking that together those dogs averaged to having lifespan to about 9 years old.  

So on paper statistics it can look like a 9 year average life then.  And if fewer die as puppies to parvo, then even if the older ones now are only early teens the statistic average age would come up. 

But the feeling as a person with dogs like that too in childhood is that the elder dog dying at 18 shows more of the sense of dog longevity then...

And that, whether I am wrong about my and friends dogs actually making it into 20’s or only late teens, that’s what seems different to me now.  

When the last dog before current one made it to double digits I was really happy as I hadn’t had a double digit age dog for ... a long time.  

 

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9 hours ago, Pen said:

 

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes, dogs have always eaten human leftover scraps, from the beginning of time. I have zero problem with dogs eating scraps, and "dried bakery product" is no more garbage than the crusts off my kids' sandwich that they didn't eat, that I may hand to the dog as a treat. Same thing, just dried and crumbled. Leftovers. Scraps. It's what dogs have always eaten.

And that article is ridiculous. They admit that non edible things can't be included in the bakery product, then go on to say "well....maybe they consider styrofoam and plastic edible". No, no one thinks plastic is edible. Its full of appeals to ignorance "well, we don't have proof it doesn't have recycled car parts and space clients,  so maybe it does". 

I've never been a fan of Susan Thixton. Nothing concrete, just . . . I've heard her speak several times and something about her attitude/demeanor is a huge turnoff for me.

(Not that my vague dislike of her should mean anything to anybody else.)

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22 hours ago, Spy Car said:

I see a lot of Vizslas, being active in breed groups. Most that I see are not in optimal condition. Most are either carrying too much weight in their middles or they are under-muscled and underdeveloped (and sometimes both).

 

What are you seeing on the Viszla’s lifespan and late life health and causes of death?  

 

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I want to know more about the whole pea /legume thing - as in the science of what it does with regards to absorption/depletion etc. Which I believe is the part that they don’t know yet. 

But I personally think that adding junk bread to bulk things up is not nutritionally superior and probably not advisable. 

I was talking more with my raw feeding neighbor yesterday. She was showing me a local raw dog food that was a mix of bone, meat and organs. She has rejected the snout to tail supplier now in favor of this. She does bulk up her raw food with brown rice or quinoa since her dog is so skinny you can see it’s ribs but she’s trying to use quality carb sources. 

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58 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

She does bulk up her raw food with brown rice or quinoa since her dog is so skinny you can see it’s ribs but she’s trying to use quality carb sources. 

I had to do that when I was raw feeding our Brittany. He lost way too much muscle for my comfort while just eating raw w/o a goodly amount of added carbs. That was despite feeding him multiple times more raw than a dog his size/age/high energy level supposedly needed. It's also why I finally gave up on raw for him, and the final straw that convinced me that raw wasn't the best choice for all dogs. His muscle mass and overall body condition was much better on other types of food.

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

But not much sugary type stuff until relatively recently in history — because people didn’t eat that so much either.  

If they eat scraps from a hunter gatherer meal long ago,  or a sled dog ‘s Inuit family’s meal 50 years ago, versus scraps from a McDonald’s happy meal now ...  that’s very different sort of food.  

Even now when I decide to let our dog have a leftover grilled cheese sandwich, there is added sugar in the bread (also added gluten) —at least in the type of bread they like for grilled cheese.   We do get some breads that are free of added sugar. 

 

 

 

Scraps from a commercial bakery , even if only bread, and even if sugar free bread, would be quite different than scraps from butchering a lamb or an elk.  

 

???

sure, but if you look just a little farther forward than paleolithic, dogs, other than the rare case of places that didn't grow grains due to extreme weather, dogs age mostly bread and porridge and such, with a bit of meat/blood. Because the humans ate every bit of the animal they could. The diet of royal hunting hounds for instance is documented as porridge with milk or blood, or bread with the same. The average household also fed plenty of scrap carbohydrates. And given how quickly dogs reproduce that is a LOT of generations eating that way, and continuing to be healthy enough to reproduce. It is most of their history. I'll give you that bakery stuff may be way too sugary, and I've never actually even seen the food mentioned in a store here, let alone fed it. But the idea that stuff left over from human use shouldn't be fed to dogs doesn't hold up for me. 

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I want to know more about the whole pea /legume thing - as in the science of what it does with regards to absorption/depletion etc. Which I believe is the part that they don’t know yet. 

 

This seems to be the most info on it so far that I've seen. (may have already shared.) Basically, on top of peas/pulses having a different amino acid profile from grains (grains are high in taurine precursors, pulses are not) the added soluble fiber can decrease absorption in the gut. But we don't know exactly that that is what is happening. . https://academic.oup.com/jas/article/97/3/983/5279069?fbclid=IwAR2rFYiZy5Fyx4Fm5WJoB7xNpkKUEmLD-oVEmdbiefegH-hsSKqjfzkwEUM

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On 3/22/2019 at 8:25 AM, HollyDay said:

This is whole subject landed in my in box over a month ago when a friend, whose dog was affected by DCM, sent me some links.  I spoke with our vet and immediately started the process of switching their food from a boutique brand (I thought I was making the best choice) to another brand.  My golden looks better on his new food.  DH remarked the other day that the dog's coat is better, his overall body condition looks better (it looked good before, but we always had trouble keeping him at ideal weight...now we don't), and he is overall more active.  One of our senior dogs, who has some health issues, seems to have more energy.  I'm not seeing great improvements in our other senior dog, but she has always been in good body condition and energetic. 

I don't know the "whys and wherefores" of dog food.  It has been a difficult search process.  I didn't want a super high protein food.   Didn't want the grains and legumes that were suspected.  Didn't want a company known for recalls.  Didn't want a food the dogs would refuse to eat.  Didn't want questionable ingredients.  Did I mention it has been a difficult search.  Not to mention one of my senior dogs needs mostly wet food. 

 

I’m wondering what food (s) you ended up using?

On 3/22/2019 at 8:25 AM, HollyDay said:

I do find grilled chicken to be well received by all the dogs 🙂

 

Ah, yes!!!  

Even my picky dog would no doubt go for grilled chicken!

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So we picked up a small bag of Bil-Jac at PetSmart today.   OMG, it's like doggy crack.   We measured out half of her normal portion and used it for training this afternoon.  She would do anything for this stuff. 😄

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I ended up ordering Bil-Jac.  The only one of that brand around me is one feed store that sells the frozen.  For the next couple of weeks, we are feeding raw plus the honest kitchen dehydrated stuff, mixed with a little of the BB until it's gone, then a little of the Bil-Jac until the dehydrated is gone.  We'll see how it works.  We haven't fed one of the dogs chicken at all since having to switch due to hair loss, etc.  At least we have the other dog who can (and will!) eat anything if the allergy one can't handle the chicken.

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3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

What are you seeing on the Viszla’s lifespan and late life health and causes of death?  

 

Lifespan estimates vary. IMS the Viszla Club of America estimates only about 11.5 years. Other sources 12-15.

Bill

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3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I want to know more about the whole pea /legume thing - as in the science of what it does with regards to absorption/depletion etc. Which I believe is the part that they don’t know yet. 

But I personally think that adding junk bread to bulk things up is not nutritionally superior and probably not advisable. 

I was talking more with my raw feeding neighbor yesterday. She was showing me a local raw dog food that was a mix of bone, meat and organs. She has rejected the snout to tail supplier now in favor of this. She does bulk up her raw food with brown rice or quinoa since her dog is so skinny you can see it’s ribs but she’s trying to use quality carb sources. 

 

Adding carbohydrates (rice, etc) defeats much of the purpose of raw feeding as it cuts off fat-metabolism as dogs turn to metabolize carbs.

It defeats the purpose IMO.

Bill

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

 

Adding carbohydrates (rice, etc) defeats much of the purpose of raw feeding as it cuts off fat-metabolism as dogs turn to metabolize carbs.

It defeats the purpose IMO.

Bill

 

 

Before she added the carbs, her dog (who was eating twice more by poundage of the raw than is even recommended) had hip bones that were jutting out.  Honestly, I would have just switched to kibble, but she's committed to raw feeding and has added the carbs so that her very high metabolism dog will not be malnourished. 

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19 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Lifespan estimates vary. IMS the Viszla Club of America estimates only about 11.5 years. Other sources 12-15.

Bill

 

Have you been aware of differences in that as between kibble eaters versus raw ?

I realize other things will also be different in lives of the dogs, and that it’s not at all controlled science experiment .  But at least maybe same breed and same geographical area.  

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11 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Before she added the carbs, her dog (who was eating twice more by poundage of the raw than is even recommended) had hip bones that were jutting out.  Honestly, I would have just switched to kibble, but she's committed to raw feeding and has added the carbs so that her very high metabolism dog will not be malnourished. 

 

I would have added more fats.   Raw meat fat if committed to raw diet.  

 

 

Is this a basically very healthy, very active dog?

if not, 

It sounds like hyperthyroidism or something?

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21 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I would have added more fats.   Raw meat fat if committed to raw diet.  

 

 

Is this a basically very healthy, very active dog?

if not, 

It sounds like hyperthyroidism or something?

Very healthy and active but does have some issues with bladder leakage (1 year old dog) and hair loss. 

I think that she has added fat?  Not really sure on that though. I do feed the dog on occasion but can’t really remember the details. 

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1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Before she added the carbs, her dog (who was eating twice more by poundage of the raw than is even recommended) had hip bones that were jutting out.  Honestly, I would have just switched to kibble, but she's committed to raw feeding and has added the carbs so that her very high metabolism dog will not be malnourished. 

I would have advised adding a high percentage of fat, as there is nothing "nourishing" in carbohydrates. A gram of fat has 2.25 times as many calories as a gram of carbohydrate and dogs metabolize energy from fats far more efficiently.

Bill

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

I would have added more fats.   Raw meat fat if committed to raw diet.  

 

 

Is this a basically very healthy, very active dog?

if not, 

It sounds like hyperthyroidism or something?

LOL. I posted and then wondered if I'd double posted. LOL.

We agree entirely. Same with getting a vet check for hypothyroidism or other issues.

Bill

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Have you been aware of differences in that as between kibble eaters versus raw ?

I realize other things will also be different in lives of the dogs, and that it’s not at all controlled science experiment .  But at least maybe same breed and same geographical area.  

I have not seen any stats on raw vs kibble fed lifespans in Vizslas. 

Bill

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Was she she was checked for very common things like infection? Both Systemic or local like bladder infection or mange?  Worms / parasites?   

where’s fur loss? All over or like my dog’s feet?   Or spots here and there? Or? 

Itchy? 

 

Addison’s disease, pre-diabetes, hyperthyroidism all might have symptoms along those lines.  Lots of other things too, probably. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I have not seen any stats on raw vs kibble fed lifespans in Vizslas. 

Bill

 

I just meant impressions from discussion with other owners of same breed dogs...

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1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Very healthy and active but does have some issues with bladder leakage (1 year old dog) and hair loss. 

I think that she has added fat?  Not really sure on that though. I do feed the dog on occasion but can’t really remember the details. 

Ideally, 50-60% of calories should come from fat. Too many raw feeders--operating from "human preconceptions"--feed too little fat to their dogs, opting for leaner cuts when fat is essential for energy.

Bill

ETA: To get to the 50-60% of "calories from fat," that means about 30% of the "meat" should be fat.

Edited by Spy Car
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3 minutes ago, Pen said:

Was she she was checked for very common things like infection? Both Systemic or local like bladder infection or mange?  Worms / parasites?   

where’s fur loss? All over or like my dog’s feet?   Or spots here and there? Or? 

Itchy? 

 

Addison’s disease, pre-diabetes, hyperthyroidism all might have symptoms along those lines.  Lots of other things too, probably. 

 

 

 

 

That was was in response to @Jean in Newcastle

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Just now, Pen said:

 

I just meant impressions from discussion with other owners of same breed dogs...

Even on an anecdotal level, I do not have "evidence" on longevity differences. The raw fed PMR-style Vizslas are all in great shape, but none that I know are elderly dogs.

I have my educated guess that keeping a V in optimal shape is the best way to extend a long and healthy life, but I have no real evidence to back it up.

Bill

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16 minutes ago, Pen said:

Was she she was checked for very common things like infection? Both Systemic or local like bladder infection or mange?  Worms / parasites?   

where’s fur loss? All over or like my dog’s feet?   Or spots here and there? Or? 

Itchy? 

 

Addison’s disease, pre-diabetes, hyperthyroidism all might have symptoms along those lines.  Lots of other things too, probably. 

 

 

They think that the bladder thing might be hormonal as it didn't appear until right after being spayed. 

I know that she's been checked for mange and worms/parasites.  The hair loss is in spots - it was raw behind her ears where she was scratching (so itchy) and she has a spot on her chest where the hair is missing.  And I know that she chews her feet.

This neighbor goes only to naturopathic vets so I'm not sure if they do all the "normal" tests or not.  She's been treated with some success with herbal tinctures. 

She doesn't seem to have anything contagious at any rate.  My dog wrestles with hers all the time and my dog is completely fine. 

This is an example of different "pet parenting" styles to some degree.  😉  I would have had my dog at a different vet doing some more extensive tests but not my dog so. . .    And despite different feeding styles I am doing more research on raw feeding etc.  We do some dehydrated/ freeze dried foods as well as the kibble at this point.  I am still early(ish) in my research. 

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
additional info

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1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

They think that the bladder thing might be hormonal as it didn't appear until right after being spayed. 

I know that she's been checked for mange and worms/parasites.  The hair loss is in spots - it was raw behind her ears where she was scratching (so itchy) and she has a spot on her chest where the hair is missing.  And I know that she chews her feet.

This neighbor goes only to naturopathic vets so I'm not sure if they do all the "normal" tests or not.  She's been treated with some success with herbal tinctures. 

She doesn't seem to have anything contagious at any rate.  My dog wrestles with hers all the time and my dog is completely fine. 

This is an example of different "pet parenting" styles to some degree.  😉  I would have had my dog at a different vet doing some more extensive tests but not my dog so. . .    And despite different feeding styles I am doing more research on raw feeding etc.  We do some dehydrated/ freeze dried foods as well as the kibble at this point.  I am still early(ish) in my research. 

Spay incontinence is a very common risk of the procedure.

Bill

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I saw a 2 year old Vizsla at the dog park today.  I asked what she's being fed (raw mixed with some kibble for bulk).  Beautiful dog and very sweet.  Anyway. . . I was motivated to ask due to this thread! 

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26 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Ideally, 50-60% of calories should come from fat. Too many raw feeders--operating from "human preconceptions"--feed too little fat to their dogs, opting for leaner cuts when fat is essential for energy.

Bill

ETA: To get to the 50-60% of "calories from fat," that means about 30% of the "meat" should be fat.

I don't know that I agree...most prey animals (if we are going with the theory that dogs should eat like wild animals) are pretty lean. Venison or bison vs commercial feed lot beef, for example. Plus, too much fat from animals fed corn leads to an imbalance of omega 3 and 6 fatty acids. 

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7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The hair loss is in spots - it was raw behind her ears where she was scratching (so itchy) and she has a spot on her chest where the hair is missing.  And I know that she chews her feet.

 

That sounds like an allergic dog like mine.  It can be other things, not foods (pollen, flea saliva, etc) , but can be food or food can contribute...  the dog might be worse on a commercial diet—   She might have a problem with beef similar to mine with chicken...   

I had my dog free of his troubles, for awhile... then it came back...   if he gets past it again, I’ll let you know how.  

I would personally try higher fat for added calories.  

 

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

And despite different feeding styles I am doing more research on raw feeding etc.  We do some dehydrated/ freeze dried foods as well as the kibble at this point.  I am still early(ish) in my research. 

 

I have, after this thread, gotten some different dog foods on an immediate basis.  But I also ordered tripe.  I’ve always had a gut feeling it might help my dog enormously, but couldn’t find a local source.  ...

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