Were you once anti-vax and now pro-vax? Or other changes of mind...

[Janeway]

9 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

I was the same way, though I never actually knew anyone who was anti-vax until we started homeschooling. We fully vaccinated on schedule (ds has even had gardasil) but I was okay with those who were against vaccination. When I ran an umbrella school for Florida homeschoolers I even let people write a statement saying that vaccinating conflicts with their beliefs (Florida considers umbrella schools the same as private schools and doesn't distinguish between brick and mortar and homeschool private schools. Therefore, all students had to have proof of vaccination or a statement that it goes against their beliefs. It's been many years since I sold the umbrella school and I haven't paid attention to current hs laws, so I don't know if it still works that way.). In recent years, and especially with so many outbreaks of preventable-by-vaccination diseases, I've totally changed my mind and am no longer sympathetic to or okay with anti-vaxxers. I guess you could say I'm anti-anti-vax.

The biggest issue that I've changed my mind about is the death penalty. I wouldn't say I was gung ho pro death penalty but I wasn't really against it either. I believed some people can't be rehabilitated (still do believe that to some extent for a small segment of the population) and also believed that it was okay for society to end their lives (that's the part that changed). I knew one of the sorority women at Florida State killed by Ted Bundy. When he was executed I was teaching high school and had first period planning. I sat in my car that morning in the school parking lot and listened to the report on my car radio. I thought I would feel something when he was officially declared dead - elation, relief, closure - anything. But I didn't. He was dead but my friend Margaret was also still dead. I began looking into the death penalty and discovered that it cost the state (any state) more money than a life sentence without parole. The Innocence Project didn't exist then and research was harder without instant access, but I learned of innocent people being put to death. I came out of it being very much against the death penalty and still am. 

I have changed on the death penalty too. It does more to hurt others, does nothing to heal anyone, and really, if the offender is guilty, is an easier way out.

[Junie]

I don't know if I have really changed my mind on any big issues, but the Hive has made me more understanding of other viewpoints.  (Thank you.)

[TechWife]

I used to be against providing a social safety net through public funding (taxes). I no longer am, in fact, I think it's a critical function of a culture/society/government.

What I believed then:

The Bible says the church is supposed to take care of "widows and orphans," not the government. It's their job, not the government's.

What I believe now:

The church isn't taking care of vulnerable people on a large scale, or even a small scale. They largely "take care of their own" and refer people with long term needs to public services, or better yet, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps (which isn't in the Bible). I also realized that the Bible does not forbid government's and NGO's from providing needed services to people.

Then:

Homeless people should go get jobs.

Now:

We need to address the root causes of homelessness and fix them. Housing is easy & relatively inexpensive when compared to other interventions, systemic change is not easy.

Then:

Government is over reaching and removing children from their homes unnecessarily - they are interfering in the private lives of individual citizens.

Now:

Thank God for social workers, foster families and other care providers who stand in the gap when parents are unable to provide a safe environment for their children.

Then:

If people want to go to doctor, they need to work and pay for it themselves, after all, that's what I do. I work, have insurance, get to the doctor when I need to.

Now:

We need to provide health care that isn't dependent upon someone's employment situation. Health insurance should be independent of employment. Lack of insurance is a huge barrier to accessing adequate care and that needs to be changed. Everyone should be able to access the care they need. That means the right care, in the right place at the right time at the right price.

So, what happened - how did I come to such a profound change in my way of thinking. Several things really, but they all boil down to personal experiences.

My oldest brother was addicted to alcohol & died as a direct result of that. He spent some time homeless, living in the woods. He could have come home to my parents at any time and he could have lived with my brother. His addiction led to a series of events, some were choices, some were events that inevitably happen when you can't access basic care and you lose your network of friends & family. Have you ever seen someone who is addicted to alcohol dying? It's downright shocking what happens to their bodies that is visible to the eye, much less what happens inside.

I now have friends with disabilities and other friends who have children that have disabilities. The idea that someone who is profoundly disabled should go to work for health insurance is laughable.

I have now known several people over the years that couldn't access mental health care - it was either not available where they lived, was too expensive, or had scheduling difficulties that but their need for health care in competition with their need to keep their job.

I volunteer at a children's hospital. I have held and played with children who have been removed from their homes due to abuse. I've helped them as they are recovering from drug addiction, broken limbs, bruises, brain damage from being shaken, and even STDs.  Another thing I have learned through work at the hospital is that there is a severe shortage of mental health beds in our state. Children & teens come into the hospital suffering from mental illnesses and they languish there way past the point they are medically stable as they wait for open beds. Some of them go home, only to come back at some point after they have attempted suicide. Some children are successful when they attempt suicide - I've seen that, too.

Food is another thing - how could I possibly have thought that a person made in the image of God didn't deserve to have basic nutritional needs met? I can't even figure out if that was a conscious thing or if I just lumped it in with the whole "get a job" default mode I used to have.

The more things I saw, the more I sought to learn. Instead of thinking the social worker was overreaching, I learned about the hoops they have to jump through when they remove a child.  I learned about causes of homelessness - not just addiction, but job training needs, untreated mental illness, etc.. Most of all, I learned that everyone has a story and I am now willing to listen to those stories, learn from them and change my opinions and resulting actions based upon what I learn.

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, TechWife said:

So, what happened - how did I come to such a profound change in my way of thinking. Several things really, but they all boil down to personal experiences.

This was true for me, too. A lot of the things I once rigidly held (and I thought many of the things you said here as well) were cases where I either had not experienced a set of cirucmstances that would be illuminating, or in some cases had just never observed that different things happen and my small view of it displayed a pretty massive ignorance of that. 

For instance - and it’s embarrassing I thought like this - I once agreed with the Quiverful theory because it was logical if you believed other things about God’s role in creating life and God’s sovereignty. It did make sense to me as, “Well, how can I say God intentionally creates every single person and always does what is best for me yet I will not permit the creation of life in my body except on my timetable?” But as I started to become aware of certain situations in the world, (child brides were one example), I started to think the basic premise did not make sense. No offense meant to anyone who believes otherwise. 

So, in some cases it was just that I learned more about what realities exist in the world. 

[Crimson Wife]

On vaccines, I am still in favor of a selective, delayed schedule. What has changed is that whereas when my older kids were toddlers there were only around 65 measles cases/year in the entire US, now there are several hundred. So while child #3 received the MMR at 3 years, baby #4 will receive the MMR no later than 12 months, and quite possibly at 10 months if we wind up taking him to Europe in August as we are considering (DH is going for sure and the baby & I are most likely going too). I have always felt that there were risks to both getting the vaccine and delaying the vaccine. The greater the number of US cases, the greater the risk to my child in delaying a particular vaccine.

I really wish that the Federal government would make proof of immunity to measles a requirement for entering or re-entering the US because that would drastically cut back on the number of cases. Every single outbreak in recent years can be traced back to someone getting infected overseas and then bringing it with them. From a civil liberties perspective, it is FAR less problematic IMHO for the Federal government to say that non-immune people can't get or renew their passports until they get vaccinated than it is for the government to link compulsory education and forced vaccination.

[BusyMom5]

Crimson Wife, I've got a 1 year old, they didn't do MMR until 12 months.  You may want to talk to your Doctor now if you want to get it early, I'm not sure if they would give it that early or not.  

[KidsHappen]

I have changed my mind about a lot of things due to conversations here on this board (and I may post about some of them later) but never in the 16+ years I have been here have I ever changed my mind because someone was yelling, or saying people who hold certain opinions are stupid and that their children deserve to die or be removed from their care. Nor do I ever find it effective when someone says there is tons of proof out there to support my opinion why don't you just research it. 

I am fairly intelligent (IQ in the 120s), well educated (BA), very well read and have already done the research, come to my conclusions and formed my opinion. It may be different than your opinion but that doesn't mean I am stupid. It just means that we disagree and generally when things are controversial it is because there is no cut and dried right answer. If I felt the need to change someone else's mind (which I rarely do), I would try to do so by presenting the research that supports my POV, referring people to that particular research and offering to answer questions to the best of my ability or referring to those answers elsewhere. I might also offer life examples that support my point of view because IMHO sometimes emotions are more effective in opening someone's heart to different POV that straight up scientific info. 

Basically anger and hatred are rarely effective but gentle sharing of info and opinions might be.

[Liz CA]

5 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

I haven't. I've always been a Constitutionalist, Christian, pro-life, anti-death penalty, anti lots of chemicals, pro freedom of choice in regards to vaccines, pro legal gay marriage, etc person. What has changed is that I will no longer share my opinion on most topics because I don't fancy dealing with the harassment that will inevitably ensue. (Both sides of the "aisle" take umbridge with different views of mine.)

 

I am sort of nodding here. People can pigeonhole you quickly and think if you are A, then B must follow - but what if it does not? I found it somewhat amusing when some are surprised. Case in point was that I love to shop at a local organic co-op. They are not shy about letting their customers know about their political opinions and allow various people to gather signatures in front of the door. Evidently, the thought was if you shop here you must support candidate A and abhor candidate B. Sometimes I just like to eat good food and not support anybody in particular.  🙂

[Liz CA]

On 3/19/2019 at 7:33 AM, Lady Florida. said:

 

The biggest issue that I've changed my mind about is the death penalty. I wouldn't say I was gung ho pro death penalty but I wasn't really against it either. I believed some people can't be rehabilitated (still do believe that to some extent for a small segment of the population) and also believed that it was okay for society to end their lives (that's the part that changed). I knew one of the sorority women at Florida State killed by Ted Bundy. When he was executed I was teaching high school and had first period planning. I sat in my car that morning in the school parking lot and listened to the report on my car radio. I thought I would feel something when he was officially declared dead - elation, relief, closure - anything. But I didn't. He was dead but my friend Margaret was also still dead. I began looking into the death penalty and discovered that it cost the state (any state) more money than a life sentence without parole. The Innocence Project didn't exist then and research was harder without instant access, but I learned of innocent people being put to death. I came out of it being very much against the death penalty and still am. 

 

Question: Is this because of the seemingly endless appeal process or something else? I am still going back and forth on the death penalty. 

[KidsHappen]

1 minute ago, Liz CA said:

 

Question: Is this because of the seemingly endless appeal process or something else? I am still going back and forth on the death penalty. 

Not Lady Florida but yes that is what I learned in college 30+ years ago. The legal fees cost more than the prison costs and then sometimes we still get it wrong which can cost a fortune if discovered (looking at it from a strictly cost perspective).

[LisaKinVA]

I've never been pro-or-anti vax.  I'm sure I would get lumped in with anti-vaxxers in the current climate, though.  I delayed my own children's vaccinations until they were 6-9 months old, and I didn't allow vaccinations when they had any whiff of a cold/illness.  My oldest children, I was able to give single-vax vs. combo vax.   That wasn't available for my youngest 3, so I only allowed one per visit and then had to schedule drop ins for additional vaccinations.  This was important to me at the time, since I knew two vaccine-injured children, and severe allergies of my husband.  I delayed Ckn pox until 1st or 2nd grade (none of mine acquired Cpox naturally, and several were exposed -- and not intentionallly -- I exposed 3 of them when I had shingles during my 6th pregnancy).  None of my kids have had guardisil, and my oldest three and I have had discussions about the vaccine, what it does, what it does NOT do, risks, etc., and the lifestyle they were committing to by opting out.  I also had my permission on file at the clinic, should they change their mind (doesn't matter with my oldest any longer -- which reminds me, he needs to get our permission to his health records, etc. on file!!)

I do not have a lot of faith in our government's recommended schedule.  Having lived overseas for 6 years and gotten to know people from multiple countries (Japanese, Chinese, Greek, Polish, French, Canadian, Italian, German....) there are huge differences in the age, number and type(s) of vaccinations given.  In my own children, who had delayed vax required fewer vaccines than my one child who began on time -- because if you started a certain series after a certain age, fewer vaccines were required (not true for every vaccine -- but was true for at least one of them... can't remember which ones, though).  These kinds of situations made me question the efficacy of our government schedule.  None of my children had the HepB at birth (all but one was born at home).  I know they all have Hep A and C though.

I've learned more about research in vaccines from friends who are doctors and nurses in the past several years, and it's made me much more sympathetic to the anti-vaxx positions.

I am wholly against the government dictating what medicines, procedures, etc. that people must have.  Same way I'm wholly against the gov't dictating what type of health insurance I *must* carry, or dictating any number of things.

I have always been pro-life -- in the womb and out of the womb.  I have always been involved with groups and organizations built to support single mothers, teen mothers, and organizations dedicated to helping these women build a solid foundation and future.   I would prefer that abortion were never sought, believe that science proves the pro-life position, and am saddened that the U.S. model embraces such an extreme positions that are not supported in any other western European nation (as far as I am aware). I am a supporter of the death penalty (view taking innocent life different from someone who has intentionally taken a life), but feel that our standards of evidence and justice have been warped to a point that I am suspicious of many guilty verdicts.  The media circus has done no favors to the innocent until proven guilty ideals of western civilization. 

"But, for the grace of God, go I" is my mantra.  There is no perfect human.  We are all utterly depraved -- which makes the evil nature of man unsurprising, but no less sad.  All of us far short of perfection -- and given time, motive, opportunity -- most of us would fail any test of virtue or morality.  This attitude doesn't excuse wrongdoing --but instead enables my forgiveness of those who do wrong.  

I am deeply saddened by the current course of our culture.  I was raised to engage and debate (discuss) thoughtfully.  That culture no longer exists. People are too quick to judge, while excusing away their own shortcomings.  By God's grace I sin less today than I did yesterday -- but I still fall short of the standard.  The saying, "I'm not a Christian because I'm perfect, I am a Christian because I am imperfect" sums up my life. 

I have never been afraid of science and it's interactions with the Bible -- I have found that Biblical imperatives have real-world examples to the consequences of disobedience.   I also understand how scientific studies and statistics can be manipulated to "prove" something (dietary "science" is really horrible), and find it a bit hysterical that today it is deemed "unscientific" to question science -- true science always requires skepticism.  To adhere to it blindly turns it into a religion.  I am saddened by the state of "science" today.

Today, I am less likely to engage on topics with anyone I don't know well.  I have been burned mightily by some in the conservative Christian homeschool circles, and I have no wish to expose my family or myself to the vitriolic hatred of the online world.  Life is too short.  I know who my true friends are -- and they come in many stripes.  I also quickly learn who I cannot trust.  None of this has meant that I don't help when needed.  I often feel lonely because of this. 

[G5052]

I've always been pro-vax, although we saw a ped doc when mine were babies who offered doing only one at a time. It was more office visits, but I was fine with that. I understand that the practice no longer does that though.

When I started homeschooling, I thought that everyone should homeschool all the way through. How naive of me. Among those we knew when we started, only a few went to the end (we did). I homeschooled for both religious and academic reasons. My college kids have thanked me over and over. They are both excelling in college, thankfully. Both have faith-based observations on their studies that encourage me that it was all worth it.

Theologically, I've grown more appreciative of other viewpoints and traditions. I'm part of an informal group of ladies who are mostly older than me who go to different churches who have expanded my thinking. They have a level of hard-won experience that I've needed at this point in life.

[HS Mom in NC]

On 3/20/2019 at 4:23 PM, Crimson Wife said:

 

I really wish that the Federal government would make proof of immunity to measles a requirement for entering or re-entering the US because that would drastically cut back on the number of cases. Every single outbreak in recent years can be traced back to someone getting infected overseas and then bringing it with them. From a civil liberties perspective, it is FAR less problematic IMHO for the Federal government to say that non-immune people can't get or renew their passports until they get vaccinated than it is for the government to link compulsory education and forced vaccination.

Agreed.  My immuno-compromised kid's immunologist confirmed this.  So far, it's always been people coming into the US from another country bringing the disease in.  It's usually a fact ignored by certain branches of the militant pro-vaxx crowd.

[HS Mom in NC]

I used to be a registered Republican and I'm now a registered Libertarian. I think they're the only party that takes the Constitution seriously. I no longer feel the need to vote for laws that match my religious convictions-I can be a good, God honoring Christian in God's will and allow homosexuals to marry even thought I know it's a sin.  I realized it's no different that allowing people to worship false gods, and who doesn't love their freedom of religion? 

I used to be against any academic testing for homeschoolers, now I think homeschoolers should test with any standardized test of their choosing every couple of years, and not be required to show it to anyone.  This would be a reality check for the space cadet homeschool mommy who doesn't realize how far behind everyone else her neurotypical kid is.

I used to say the pledge until I actually thought about it and now I don't and I'm against patriotic themed church services.  I have no problem with patriotic themed events as long as they're not part of corporate worship.

I used to think homeschooling was generally the best option for most people.  Now I know it isn't.

I used to think there were a few exceptions in which abortion was morally acceptable. Now,  after having a life threatening pregnancy, I no longer think there are any situations where it's morally acceptable.

I used to think it was important to read Christian writings within my denomination (or the ballpark of my denomination.) Now I deeply value a wide range of theological interpretations within Christianity-not all of them, but so many more.

I trust the legal system far less than I used to, so I'm on hold on the death penalty until it's trustworthy. I don't know if that will ever happen.

I used to think getting health insurance through an employer was a good thing.  Now I think it's bad thing because people are stuck in jobs they don't want to keep insurance, some employers are faced with choosing between providing services they have genuine convictions against and violating their employees' rights, people can't keep insurance between jobs which is a funding problem for the insurance companies and the unemployed or recently employed, and it insulates people from all the problems with insurance so they don't demand legal changes be made. Other insurances aren't dependent on employers providing it.

I'm now 100% in favor of government funded contraception for everyone.  If we reduced unplanned pregnancies significantly we'd reduce all kinds of social services strain, single parenthood strain, abortion, fostercare, the list goes on.

I used to think public schools should allow all unvaccinated kids, but now I'm ok with a policy of not allowing most unvaccinated kids because they're responsible for kids there and homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. Just because a parent isn't able to homeschool doesn't mean it's the public school's problem. Masses of people in close quarters are just incubators environments for illness.  I get exemptions for immuno-compromised kids because they take their chances every day, but for people opting out, they need to be homeschooled or there should be an alternative school that has online learning or something like that. If the government doesn't want to provide an alternative school for the unvaccinated public schooled students, then they need to change their international travel/US entry policies like Crimson Wife suggested upthread.






 

[EmseB]

4 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Agreed.  My immuno-compromised kid's immunologist confirmed this.  So far, it's always been people coming into the US from another country bringing the disease in.  It's usually a fact ignored by certain branches of the militant pro-vaxx crowd.

Unclear on why you think it's ignored? That's precisely the reason (well, one of the reasons) I want more people here in the US to be vaccinated. 

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm now 100% in favor of government funded contraception for everyone.  If we reduced unplanned pregnancies significantly we'd reduce all kinds of social services strain, single parenthood strain, abortion, fostercare, the list goes on.







 

Yes, yes, yes!!! 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I did think of one thing where I really changed my mind.  I used to be anti-smartphone.  Or at least I didn't see the point of having one for myself.  Now I absolutely love my Smartphone.

 

[Condessa]

One area in which I changed my mind was gun control.  I used to think, why did anyone need a gun other than one that would be used for hunting?  I supported the idea of either banning other types of guns for private use or having a driver’s license-like system, where you basically had to earn the privilege and it could be revoked at the government’s discretion.  Two things changed my mind on this.

Someone pointed out that the constitutional right to bear arms was not about hunting at all, but was to ensure that normal people had the capacity to fight back again if government became tyrannical.  This was patently true and provided food for thought, but at this point I wasn’t convinced that this was still necessary in our modern, free society.

Then I heard something on a radio show that almost exactly addressed my thoughts on this.  One speaker was talking about the purpose of that amendment, and the other said (slightly derisively), “but do you honestly believe that we still need that right in a modern, Western, democratic country?”  The first speaker responded, “My grandparents lived in a modern, Western democracy when the government came for them, and they died in Auschwitz.”  It radically altered my perspective.  I now believe that just because we have freedom now doesn’t mean we don’t need safeguards against tyranny.  I think we need to search for possible solutions to gun crime that preserve the right of non-criminals to have guns.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[BlsdMama]

I was extremely pro-vax.  I felt not vaccinating was akin to child abuse.

DD3 had some serious issues when she was little which two separate docs (one in Loma Linda and one at the U) mentioned could have been triggered by vaxes and to proceed cautiously.  We became selective & delayed vaxers then.  

I cloth diapered a good portion of DS2, and disposables never touched the bottom of DD3, but I'm not sure a cloth diaper was worn by DS (the baby, now 4) more than a handful of times.
I've never been a big fan of homeopathy or essential oils, but I've used herbs extensively since the early 2000s.  

I was not all that "crunchy" in my youngest mom days.  I was most "crunchy" probably around 2004 and for a good ten years after that.  I probably still am by most standards but when something is a bit more of a way of life than a banner, it's just life...  You don't think about it as much or wave it around a lot screaming, "Look at me! Look at me!"  ;) 

[HS Mom in NC]

7 hours ago, EmseB said:

Unclear on why you think it's ignored? That's precisely the reason (well, one of the reasons) I want more people here in the US to be vaccinated. 

Because people don't talk about changing US policy for those entering and reentering the country in vaccination discussions.  Instead of creating policy that directly addresses the people causing the problem, (international travels)  they want to manage everyone else, (most of the US population)  but still leave people too young to be vaccinated and the immuno-compromised just as vulnerable as before. If you directly address the source you do more to protect the vulnerable than if you do nothing to directly address the source. 

[SporkUK]

Before my first was born, I hadn't really given vaccines much thought. In the time between him being born and his six weeks check up when he was meant to get his first jabs when I was not in the best place physically or mentally. I did a lot of reading through a lens of panic and horrific experiences with far too many medical professionals. Having both dealt with medical abuse and the struggle to get justice for it which at times involved even when the hospital would admit something what someone had done was illegal, they still tried to make it out to be my fault, I was scared that if the worst happened, I would get the same treatment and my child would suffer for it. It just seemed safer as we seemed so low risk to delay and be selective about vaccines. It was also in part wanting to feel like I had some control after feeling so helpless when it came to doctors and hospitals and such. That the only support I had at that time other than my husband was an online 'green parenting' group with lots of other mothers who had also dealt with abusive medical professionals did not help anything. It felt like we all had just enough science knowledge to see threats, but not enough to judge them appropriately alongside the reality of our experiences of the medical systems. 

Now, over 14 years later, all my kids are up to date and I actively seek out extra vaccines for my kids when I can. My oldest is soon to get his teen boosters and will then be getting the HPV and MenB vaccines privately (he's just missed the cut-off for the HPV on the NHS). Nothing big happened, no outbreaks or anything like that. It was mostly time and understanding people and better information written to explain the science and risks well rather than scare stories and name calling. I think being able to discuss the risks and the issues within medical systems and corporations in a realistic way rather than they're all bad or all just want the best for us was really helpful. 

Stories like the recent one of the French family who didn't vaccinate who went to Costa Rica and caused an outbreak when the country had been measles-free for years have always frustrated me as I've always felt that if choosing not to vaccinate then it's important to use other ways to reduce the risks to yourself and to others in high-risk scenarios like aeroplanes and daycare and places like that. 

I've changed my mind about a lot of things over the years. Some things have been in a snap, just the right bit of information or the right understand person explaining something to shift my point of view like a missing puzzle piece making the picture clearer and sometimes it's taken years of coming to terms and finding a better path. Immigrating to the UK from the US did open my eyes to many things as has just more life experience. 

[Lady Florida.]

On 3/21/2019 at 2:42 AM, Liz CA said:

 

Question: Is this because of the seemingly endless appeal process or something else? I am still going back and forth on the death penalty. 

Yes, that's why it costs so much more but the appeal process is not something I think we should eliminate or shorten. Also, if there is even one innocent person on death row somewhere that's one too many. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[Lady Florida.]

Well I didn't mention it because I really didn't think of it but I suppose going from practicing Christian to atheist is a pretty big change. It's not something I think about though as it's not really a part of my every day life.