just out of curiosity - children's

[Bluegoat]

I found this tricky.  I have a BA and a diploma, dh has a masters degree.

I ended up choosing puppies are cute.  I don't really have any particular expectations as such fr kids post-secondary ed, or what they "minimally" are supposed to do.  I might have some thoughts, based on what I know about them, as far as what they might like or do well at, but I see that as different.

I especially fin the idea of "minimally" a kittle odd, as I don't know that I necessarily rank the different options given.  My expectations is they become functioning citizens who contribute to society.  If they get a particular sort of training or education, or go about that some other way, I really think that is up to them, and one approach isn't more valid tha another.  

I think dd14 could benefit from higher education, not as training but as true education, as she has the right sort of temperament.  DD11 I tend to imagine could do a lot of things from science to being in a rock band, she has a lot of drive and a ind of perfectionism and focus.  The other two are too young to have much idea what they might do though ds9 I suspect would enjoy work where he was more active.

[Bluegoat]

13 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

did your parents have degrees?  though tbh: most degrees granted 50 years ago were more relevant than too many of the degrees kids are pursuing today.  I have a list of "this is not a useful degree" 

we do know a family where several of the kids pursued music degrees - they were also expected to get a degree in something that paid their bills.  I thought that was a fair trade off.

 

 

I'm not sure I would really say that was true.  Quite a few of the degrees that we now think of as "useful" were either unnecessary 50 years ago because you went into that work without one, or the training wasn't a university degree as in nursing. Many people who went to university were still studying things like history or chemistry or classics.  I think what changed was more that fewer people went overall, and there was not so much this expectation that these degrees were about giving some kind of direct job skills.  It may also be that the teaching in the university had more integrity and so made more of an impact on the way those with a degree thought and functioned.

[Bluegoat]

9 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I appreciate everyone's response.  I know families with multiple kids may have kids who have needs that may require other choices.  dudeling certainly is an "other path" kid.  but even my boys didn't go directly to college, but went when ready to CC and transferred.

 

I've known/chatted with some families of late that just made me wonder about how I am perceiving things.   how do parents with college degrees perceive their own children seeking degrees.  I don't have one, and deeply resent the overt discouragement from my foo.  

I'm interested in what i'm seeing because I came from a very dysfunctional family, and there is a need to know what is "healthy".  or it may be these are the ones that just catch my attention (I know families where kids are expected to continue education/training).  my mother was pushed to college for a m.r..s degree.  she was disdainful of  education towards us. My brother spent eight years just to get a BS - but thinks if he'd have had actual support, he'd have an advanced degree in engineering. (just like I think if I'd had family support I'd have a BSN. - I have dudeling. I do NOT have time.)  but us siblings have all been much more expecting/encouraging of education with our own children.  of her 10 grandchildren, six have at least a bachelors, two more graduate in june, #9 in another couple years - then there is dudeling - who is 14, with special needs and marches to his own beat.   we'll see what happens there.

I'm seeing families where at least dad has a degree, and adult kids don't/aren't' pursuing any additional education or training of any kind.  (or a they're doing degree that makes you wonder how they're going to pay their bills with it.)  frequently adult kids are working retail. 

if they were saving money for college/training program/figuring out where they want to go from here/gap year - that would be one thing, (the boys had to figure out what they were doing to the point I worried they'd ever progress, but they got there.)  …… but I'm not seeing that (according to the parent when asked what kid was up to.)  

that doesn't include the families where kids are pursuing marketable skills, and another kid who is home because of other reasons specific to that child.  and I'm not talking about dysfunctional families, but otherwise functional ones.   and I don't think any of these are families that view girls as college is only about the m.r.s. degree. (gag me with a spork)

 

 

I'm actually a little confused reading this - it sounds like you are finding it odd that these kids may be getting degrees you don't see as leading right to jobs?

I have noticed a few different kids of attitudes to higher ed in families, but basically the seem to come down to, is it fundamentally a way to a job, or is it fundamentally about formation of the person/knowledge.  

I also think I've seen a little bit of a tendency to class differences among families, though they aren't extreme.  Working class families seem the most variable - some more accepting of kids not getting a degree but getting job training, or a degree if it leads to a job, some think the latter is a better way to get a more secure job.  Some also are very positive to the real educational component.  

Families with a longer history of higher ed or from upper classes also seem to value education without a clear job at the end, though they may expect the kids to work in a profession or business at the end.

It seems to be the families in the middle are more inclined to want a degree but also limit it to "useful" degrees.

[Mama Geek]

I decided not to vote because I don't know where I fit.  I have a BS degree in engineering and dh has an MS degree in Engineering, I worked more then 10 years before having kids and haven't worked in the last almost 10 years.  I have tried to get back into it and switch places with dh for a while, but have been unsuccessful so far, because you know who wants to hire an engineer that has been out of the field for 10 years and still pay a reasonable amount.

I plan to have dd ready to go into a stem degree by the end of high school if she so chooses.  I would rather her not get a degree that has little chance of a well paying career.  If she wants to go into a reasonable trade, get a degree that will lead to a good career, start a business, get into sales, etc. I would be happy with that.  I know that 10 years of me working helped to put us in a position for me to be home.  I also know that we put off trying to have a family and then had a hard time having kids.  If we had started younger would it have been different...who knows.  I probably wasn't ready for kids when I was younger anyway.  I would love for her to have the ability to stay home and raise a family, but that depends on having a husband whom she can depend on and having an economy that is reasonable, there are too many unknowns.  I just don't know.  I was always told growing up to get a degree and work and raise a family.  It took me awhile to really figure out that being a stay at home mom was really an alternative, it wasn't what I was "supposed" to do. 

I talked to a dad from India who has a PhD in Comp Sci and his wife is a doctor.  He is now in the position of stay at home dad although not yet homeschooling (they aren't happy with the school their kids are in so it may happen)  He is just starting down the path of struggling with wanting to be a dad and have time with the kids and having a hard core very involved real money making job and asking what was the point of the education.  It was their way out of India and they are in the upper class now financially.  I don't know if we would be anywhere close to their financial situation had I continued to work.

What I am getting at is that I am not the only one I have come across that struggle with it.  I do know I am so much happier being a mom than doing engineering or project management.

[madteaparty]

.

Edited March 18, 2019 by madteaparty

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

which - women pushed to college for a m.r.s. degree - or do you mean women who were, are resentful of college and it affects how they treat their kids education?

Both. Around here lack of education seems to be a badge of honor, your "true womanhood" if you will. Shows you aren't gonna be an upstart or thinking or rebellious or something. So the ones with the least education are the most likely to tell other women how awful it would be if their girls got any. 

You see that in other cultures where there are harmful practices toward women. It's often the WOMEN enforcing those rules.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I'm actually a little confused reading this - it sounds like you are finding it odd that these kids may be getting degrees you don't see as leading right to jobs?

I have noticed a few different kids of attitudes to higher ed in families, but basically the seem to come down to, is it fundamentally a way to a job, or is it fundamentally about formation of the person/knowledge.  

I also think I've seen a little bit of a tendency to class differences among families, though they aren't extreme.  Working class families seem the most variable - some more accepting of kids not getting a degree but getting job training, or a degree if it leads to a job, some think the latter is a better way to get a more secure job.  Some also are very positive to the real educational component.  

Families with a longer history of higher ed or from upper classes also seem to value education without a clear job at the end, though they may expect the kids to work in a profession or business at the end.

It seems to be the families in the middle are more inclined to want a degree but also limit it to "useful" degrees. this sounds vaguely  like disdain for those not "from the upper classes" who "want to limit to a "useful" degree.***

none of them have degrees/or training in a skill, nor are they working towards one.  one family that had really struck me - the parents both have stem degrees, and at least three of the grandparents have degrees.   (I know the grandparents on both sides.) but the mom had no problem taking the kids out of school to play hooky.

  I do have an expectation a degree will be pertinent to employment.    otherwise you have kids who spend a lot of time racking up student debt - and no ability to pay it off. just as an example:  dd just visited with a friend from her undergrad years, she has a phd in a field she loves. student debt, but can't find a job, even in academia.  she's currently living off savings.     

 frankly - life costs money, and you need to pay your bills (which you seem to equate with NOT an attitude of "the upper classes"***.)   my husband has this attitude,  my paternal family, and both dh's parent's families have college and'/or prosperous business ownership into the mid 1800s (and earlier).  dh has two MDs in his direct ancestry.  it was my mother (who was pushed to college, not for any kind of education - but for a m.r.s. degree), who killed it in my foo.   

 

*** we have a family friend who was law partners with gates senior. so  yes, even "upper classes" expected their kids to have a useful degree as friend very much remembers the screaming fit gates sr had in the office the day jr dropped out of Harvard.

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Both. Around here lack of education seems to be a badge of honor, your "true womanhood" if you will. Shows you aren't gonna be an upstart or thinking or rebellious or something. So the ones with the least education are the most likely to tell other women how awful it would be if their girls got any. 

You see that in other cultures where there are harmful practices toward women. It's often the WOMEN enforcing those rules.

ouch.  that's really scary.  my grandmother was a misogynist...  I'm familiar with the devastating practices of women keeping women down...

  we (dh and I) expect lifelong learning to continue after college - otherwise you go backwards.

while we very much value mom's staying home with kids when they can - I expected my girls to get a good education even if they never worked a day.  I'm a snob - I want my grandchildren to have educated mothers.  =D   

but dh and I had widowed mother's, both college dropouts, when we were young (he was 20, I was 12).  it t'wern't purtty.   (his mother proceeded to obtain a bachelors and a masters)

 

eta: a M.R.S. degree is girls who go to college more to catch a husband - not for the education.  so that would seem to preclude your "lack of education as a badge of honor" as they have to have done well enough in high school to get into college.

Edited March 18, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Bluegoat]

15 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

none of them have degrees/or training in a skill, nor are they working towards one.  one family that had really struck me - the parents both have stem degrees, and at least three of the grandparents have degrees.   (I know the grandparents on both sides.) but the mom had no problem taking the kids out of school to play hooky.

  I do have an expectation a degree will be pertinent to employment.    otherwise you have kids who spend a lot of time racking up student debt - and no ability to pay it off. just as an example:  dd just visited with a friend from her undergrad years, she has a phd in a field she loves. student debt, but can't find a job, even in academia.  she's currently living off savings.     

 frankly - life costs money, and you need to pay your bills (which you seem to equate with NOT an attitude of "the upper classes"***.)   my husband has this attitude,  my paternal family, and both dh's parent's families have college and'/or prosperous business ownership into the mid 1800s (and earlier).  dh has two MDs in his direct ancestry.  it was my mother (who was pushed to college, not for any kind of education - but for a m.r.s. degree), who killed it in my foo.   

 

*** we have a family friend who was law partners with gates senior. so  yes, even "upper classes" expected their kids to have a useful degree as friend very much remembers the screaming fit gates sr had in the office the day jr dropped out of Harvard.

 

 

Speaking to your in-text comment  - no, I wouldn't say it's distain.  I think it's interesting that in my experience - which obviously not some kind of scientific study - I find the middle class actually seems to have the least variation in their expectations or desires for education for kids, compared to what I see in working class or upper class families. 

Where I see this in particular is those middle class families seem the most often to both expect university, but also expect it to be job oriented.  We could guess that those with more money worry about employability less because they have more resources, I am sure that is at least part of the reason though maybe not the whole reason, and perhaps for those same reasons are willing to consider their kids doing something other than a university degree.

But It's not like working class families are in that same situation, they too would like their kids to have the ability to get a job and don't have money to spend on extras.  But they seem to be less likely to insist on university as the expectation for getting a good job.  That is't universal, some families do see it as a way up the economic ladder, but I find it less common.  

But it's middle class families where I've seen the most pressurising of kids to attend university or unwillingness for parents to seriously consider other options for acquiring job skills.

It may just be that the working class families have more personal experience with types of training that aren't found at universities.  But I have wondered how much it might be connected to a middle class stigma being attached to that kind of work.

[Pen]

11 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I appreciate everyone's response.  I know families with multiple kids may have kids who have needs that may require other choices.  dudeling certainly is an "other path" kid.  but even my boys didn't go directly to college, but went when ready to CC and transferred.

 

I've known/chatted with some families of late that just made me wonder about how I am perceiving things.   how do parents with college degrees perceive their own children seeking degrees.  I don't have one, and deeply resent the overt discouragement from my foo.  

I'm interested in what i'm seeing because I came from a very dysfunctional family, and there is a need to know what is "healthy".  or it may be these are the ones that just catch my attention (I know families where kids are expected to continue education/training).  my mother was pushed to college for a m.r..s degree.  she was disdainful of  education towards us. My brother spent eight years just to get a BS - but thinks if he'd have had actual support, he'd have an advanced degree in engineering. (just like I think if I'd had family support I'd have a BSN. - I have dudeling. I do NOT have time.)  but us siblings have all been much more expecting/encouraging of education with our own children.  of her 10 grandchildren, six have at least a bachelors, two more graduate in june, #9 in another couple years - then there is dudeling - who is 14, with special needs and marches to his own beat.   we'll see what happens there.

I'm seeing families where at least dad has a degree, and adult kids don't/aren't' pursuing any additional education or training of any kind.  (or a they're doing degree that makes you wonder how they're going to pay their bills with it.)  frequently adult kids are working retail. 

if they were saving money for college/training program/figuring out where they want to go from here/gap year - that would be one thing, (the boys had to figure out what they were doing to the point I worried they'd ever progress, but they got there.)  …… but I'm not seeing that (according to the parent when asked what kid was up to.)  

that doesn't include the families where kids are pursuing marketable skills, and another kid who is home because of other reasons specific to that child.  and I'm not talking about dysfunctional families, but otherwise functional ones.   and I don't think any of these are families that view girls as college is only about the m.r.s. degree. (gag me with a spork)

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps, some people see value in what they didn’t get.  Others see comparative waste of time and resources for something they did get. ?

 

I think this can be hugely different depending on situation. And college now is not what it was in past.

 I think location of people as well as social, economic, and other factors all play a role.

The cost now is huge compared to incomes for many.

 That hasn’t so much affected some of my friends who are in high income careers in New York, San Francisco etc,. For a couple of friends working for Microsoft or Google...college cost isn’t a big deal, I’m sure they do expect their kids to go to college, absent a specific reason that a child cannot go.  And they not only expect 4 year college, but also, by and large a highly selective one.   Though one friend working for Microsoft who I lost track of, I’m not sure of. He did not go to college and self educated as a computer programmer.  It makes me curious.  Maybe I’ll try to locate him and ask, but I expect probably his children will have gone to college. 

But for many of us, this includes me, where cost is a significant issue, I think the idea that college is an obvious, almost automatic next step after high school changes.  

 

The second closest city to us is Eugene, with main campus of University of Oregon... and a lot of graduates seemingly waiting tables or doing other things that should not take a many thousand dollar degree.   And college students are often not seeming much more broadly educated than high school kids either.  The idea of getting a “college education “ in order to have massive loan debt while struggling as a clerk or barista etc, I think has hugely changed the outlook of many people I know.   

I had assumed my son would go and when I was planning homeschool high school had that in mind in terms of classes he would need.  Since he has been at bm school, and I see how much he really doesn’t enjoy academics, I cannot see a reason for college unless he has a particular goal in mind which requires it.  

Also I think that what college is seen as being is different for different people, for example: a place of wonderful learning opportunities; versus a place with sleep deprivation, raucous music and too much alcohol and drugs; versus a fun country club atmosphere with some classes thrown in where the young person is likely to meet other young people of good social standing for networking purposes; versus a way to get a credential to increase job opportunities; versus, I suspect, perhaps not always even seen as something for the child but perhaps a feather in cap for the parent...

 

Prior To Vietnam war, I think college wasn’t something that nearly everyone did, and having relatively fewer people with college degrees tended to make them more valuable. Then the combo of Vietnam war making college seen as a way to not be killed or get war PTSD for awhile plus the relatively low cost of going and increasing numbers of colleges to go to, made it into something much more widespread.  

Now, I think, it is something that is being questioned.

 

 

[Pen]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

I'm seeing families where at least dad has a degree, and adult kids don't/aren't' pursuing any additional education or training of any kind.  (or a they're doing degree that makes you wonder how they're going to pay their bills with it.)  frequently adult kids are working retail. 

 

I guess, narrowing in on this, if working retail seems to be direction a kid is headed, it makes more sense to do that without college debt than with. 

[Bluegoat]

18 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I guess, narrowing in on this, if working retail seems to be direction a kid is headed, it makes more sense to do that without college debt than with. 

 

What I would wonder is how many would be working retail long-term.

It's not that uncommon for people to do this for a few years after graduating, and then move on.  So I think you'd have to look not just at how many young people with undergraduate degrees are doing that, but what happens to them down the road. 

[Pen]

19 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

What I would wonder is how many would be working retail long-term.

It's not that uncommon for people to do this for a few years after graduating, and then move on.  So I think you'd have to look not just at how many young people with undergraduate degrees are doing that, but what happens to them down the road. 

 

I don’t have a source for statistics.

A lot of struggle, I think.

And I think college in USA is around double cost of Canada.  Our state “public” University is Over 10K per year USA$ for tuition for instate student.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Pen

[Bluegoat]

8 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t have a source for statistics.

A lot of struggle, I think.

And I think college in USA is around double cost of Canada.  Our state “public” University is Over 10K per year USA$ for tuition for instate student.

 

Yeah - I have somewhere seen statistics on this, from the US.  What they suggested was that a lot of arts grads who were initially working in retail or food service did in fact go on to other things and do well, and the degrees made a difference to their lives.  But the degrees weren't obviously fitting into a job slot in the same way as something like nursing.  And really, that would be my observation or arts grads as well.  They don't generally stay in those jobs, but many do them for a while.

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yeah - I have somewhere seen statistics on this, from the US.  What they suggested was that a lot of arts grads who were initially working in retail or food service did in fact go on to other things and do well, and the degrees made a difference to their lives.  But the degrees weren't obviously fitting into a job slot in the same way as something like nursing.  And really, that would be my observation or arts grads as well.  They don't generally stay in those jobs, but many do them for a while.

 

This also presumed completion of degree. Plenty of students start college but don’t finish.

 By arts do you mean liberal arts? Or art more narrowly?

[Bluegoat]

27 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

This also presumed completion of degree. Plenty of students start college but don’t finish.

 By arts do you mean liberal arts? Or art more narrowly?

 

Well, I don't remember the details of what they looked at, but I think it was people who had completed a degree in the humanities.

[Lady Marmalade]

19 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

.

 

Like I said, my only expectation after they graduate is for them to find what makes them happy and if they don't know, then I want them to be exploring their interests to find it. I'm fine with them taking a year or even a few years of working in the real world or trying out different paid or unpaid positions to find what makes them happy.

This for sure.

I don't have a degree- I was literally one class away from the degree and always meant to get back... But work happened, then marriage and children and it would be a useless degree for me anyway (Retail Management).   DH has an AAS in forestry/arboriculture, but he doesn't work in that field and certainly didn't need a degree to get to where he is in the construction field today.

AS it stands, DD is set to pursue her BA in dance at the university, with the intention of teaching in the future (provided we can figure out how to pay for it, of course).  I can't even fathom the direction DS might be headed... He would love a career in the dance field, but who knows how that will work out in the long term.  He'll always have an opportunity available with the company DH works for should he want it- no degree required.

We lean towards favoring the trades if we had to choose a direction for DS.  But ultimately that will be up to him.  

Anyway, they have a home for as long as they need/want it.  If they are not schooling, they'll likely be working, and in that case they will be expected to contribute to the household expenses like insurance, cell phone bills, etc.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by Lady Marmalade

[SKL]

From my perspective, the purpose of college is to prepare for a good career.

If my kids just want to improve their minds, they can go borrow great books from the library and spend time with like-minded friends.

[Farrar]

I also can't choose an option. BalletBoy is hoping to dance. Dh and I have discussed it. We're willing to blow all his college money on supporting him in that for a couple of years of paid training if he can be accepted and in supporting his living expenses for a couple more years if he can get into a training/young company program (these are paid positions, but paid so little that young people can't typically live on it fully until they get into a company role, if that ever happens). My guess is that he'll be able to do some version of that for at least a few years and then attend college, probably more on his own dime and loans, while working part time maybe. But it's just a guess. I don't really know.

As for Mushroom, my guess is that he'll go to a four year college after a gap year. But, it's really up to him. And he's unsure what he wants to do. So, who knows.

[Arcadia]

18 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

sorry, I don't understand what "as bad as us in trades"?

different areas have different demands, specialty trade skills included.

 

None of us like the medical field so that area is not in consideration for a potential job.

The rest of the trades that are commonly listed (quoted below), my husband nearly failed those while in school (technical workshop) and college (engineering) which was why he picked electrical engineering (nanotechnology) as a major. I can be a draftsman as long as it is using CAD and my first degree is in civil engineering, my lecturer was lenient on manual drawing so that the pass rate for engineering drawing freshmen year doesn’t look so bad. My FIL flooded our home’s laundry area and damaged our washer many years ago because he insisted on doing the faucet alterations for us (a plumber redo after the incident).

What I am saying is that my husband and I have better chances staying employed in an office job that is more paper pushing than anything requiring dexterity (good fine and gross motor skills) even if the office job pays less. We are seeing that issue with our kids despite how much money we have spent over the years to improve their motor skills (they still can’t bike, neither can I). 

 

“Building Trades

Examples:

• Carpenter
• Carpet installer
• Electrician
• Heavy equipment operator
• Insulation installer
• Landscaper
• Painter
• Plumber

Mechanical Trades

Examples:

• Auto mechanic
• HVAC installer
• Machinist
• Mechanical drafter
• Locksmith
• Mechanical insulator
• Elevator mechanic
• Mechanical installer

Industrial Trades

Examples:

• Steam engineer
• Cargo freight agent
• Ironworker
• Line installer and repairer
• Paving equipment operator
• Metal fabricator
• Asbestos worker

Medical Trades

Example:

• Dental assistant
• Paramedic
• Phlebotomist
• Respiratory therapist
• Clinical laboratory technician” https://work.chron.com/list-trade-careers-7833.html

[Bluegoat]

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

From my perspective, the purpose of college is to prepare for a good career.

If my kids just want to improve their minds, they can go borrow great books from the library and spend time with like-minded friends.

 

Well, I mean that can work, but it's not quite the same thing, any more than teaching yourself a trade on your own is the same as apprenticing to a master craftsman, or trying to figure out how to be a doctor from a book.  I think we can recognise that not everyone is going to be able to have that kind of education without needing to tell ourselves that it is no different than reading and talking to your friends.

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Well, I mean that can work, but it's not quite the same thing, any more than teaching yourself a trade on your own is the same as apprenticing to a master craftsman, or trying to figure out how to be a doctor from a book.  I think we can recognise that not everyone is going to be able to have that kind of education without needing to tell ourselves that it is no different than reading and talking to your friends.

Honestly, most of my undergrad classes were bull$hit.  Intellectually, I probably would have been better off just reading, experiencing life, and talking to people without blown-up egos. 

In my case, I needed the undergrad degree to pursue higher goals (law / business) that did lead to both intellectual and career growth.  But it was my factory experience that really helped me understand things.  Not my sociology and psychology courses.  😛

[Bluegoat]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

Honestly, most of my undergrad classes were bull$hit.  Intellectually, I probably would have been better off just reading, experiencing life, and talking to people without blown-up egos. 

In my case, I needed the undergrad degree to pursue higher goals (law / business) that did lead to both intellectual and career growth.  But it was my factory experience that really helped me understand things.  Not my sociology and psychology courses.  😛

 

Yes, some undergraduate degrees are crap. Some grad degrees are crap too.

That does not mean that reading and talking is the same as learning about something in a good university program.

The move to have so many people go to university, and the focus on job training, has made that a lot worse. They are trying to get a lot of people who don't care about that kind of learning through the programs, maybe who aren't even really suited to it. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

My best guess is that about half my children will seek university 4 year degrees or more, and half will seek skilled trades.  I think both are great options and the Swiss education system is set up nicely for post-obligatory education options.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Perhaps, some people see value in what they didn’t get.  Others see comparative waste of time and resources for something they did get. ?

 

I think this can be hugely different depending on situation. And college now is not what it was in past.

 I think location of people as well as social, economic, and other factors all play a role.

The cost now is huge compared to incomes for many.

 That hasn’t so much affected some of my friends who are in high income careers in New York, San Francisco etc,. For a couple of friends working for Microsoft or Google...college cost isn’t a big deal, I’m sure they do expect their kids to go to college, absent a specific reason that a child cannot go.  And they not only expect 4 year college, but also, by and large a highly selective one.   Though one friend working for Microsoft who I lost track of, I’m not sure of. He did not go to college and self educated as a computer programmer.  It makes me curious.  Maybe I’ll try to locate him and ask, but I expect probably his children will have gone to college. 

But for many of us, this includes me, where cost is a significant issue, I think the idea that college is an obvious, almost automatic next step after high school changes.  

 

The second closest city to us is Eugene, with main campus of University of Oregon... and a lot of graduates seemingly waiting tables or doing other things that should not take a many thousand dollar degree.   And college students are often not seeming much more broadly educated than high school kids either.  The idea of getting a “college education “ in order to have massive loan debt while struggling as a clerk or barista etc, I think has hugely changed the outlook of many people I know.   

I had assumed my son would go and when I was planning homeschool high school had that in mind in terms of classes he would need.  Since he has been at bm school, and I see how much he really doesn’t enjoy academics, I cannot see a reason for college unless he has a particular goal in mind which requires it.  

Also I think that what college is seen as being is different for different people, for example: a place of wonderful learning opportunities; versus a place with sleep deprivation, raucous music and too much alcohol and drugs; versus a fun country club atmosphere with some classes thrown in where the young person is likely to meet other young people of good social standing for networking purposes; versus a way to get a credential to increase job opportunities; versus, I suspect, perhaps not always even seen as something for the child but perhaps a feather in cap for the parent...

 

Prior To Vietnam war, I think college wasn’t something that nearly everyone did, and having relatively fewer people with college degrees tended to make them more valuable. Then the combo of Vietnam war making college seen as a way to not be killed or get war PTSD for awhile plus the relatively low cost of going and increasing numbers of colleges to go to, made it into something much more widespread.  

Now, I think, it is something that is being questioned.

 

 

prior to WWII - an 8th grade education was considered enough to make a living and support a family, and not every one even went to high school. (probably especially in rural areas).  it was easier to get training in a skill - though trades are still out there.

we're in commuting distance of UW.  we've done the college cost thing.  shopping around for schools pays off.  scholarships, grants, CC for the first two years (we have a good CC system and that seriously cuts costs) - the only one with significant debt (more than $15k)  upon graduation was 2dd with her doc. ds chose UW instead of where he really wanted to go, because it's cheaper. (I looked at costs of his program in other places - prices widely varied - from $8K - $40K+ per year.  even need based scholarships vary greatly in what is offered)   2dd did have a friend who chose to go to med school in texas because out-of-state tuition  was cheaper than in-state-tuition in his home state.

I think there are a lot of degrees out there that are a complete waste of time and money. - such as  those obtained by

college students are often not seeming much more broadly educated than high school kids either.  The idea of getting a “college education “ in order to have massive loan debt while struggling as a clerk or barista etc, I think has hugely changed the outlook of many people I know.  

        and those pursuing them could do so much better to learn a trade/skill.   

I think there are schools that are a poor excuse for a school too, and I wouldn't ever recommend them.

when 1ds seriously started back to college, the "college experience" came up with his peers.  there were those who wanted the "party" they assumed they would have with college life.  he'd already bounced around and was ready to apply himself. (as were those he studied with).  he took the cheaper path of CC-transfer, as he was ready to be a student.  

those were the biggest complaints 1dd had about her private uni.  the 'country club atmosphere" of the trust-fund baby frats.   she's now fairly jaded about trust fund babies.

but now, with all applications going through HR (which tends to not know squat), the hiring dept has to put out basic requirements just for a resume to be forwarded to them.   

 

 

43 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

What I hate to see is the disdain for higher ed in hsing circles. I lost what I considered a good friend over this--she started an "other" path group for hsers and promptly shut down any other discussion. Yes, some kids are headed on another path, but shouldn't we look at THAT kid? Maybe higher ed is the route they should look at.  

in each case, when i was referring to "other path" - I was referring to kids with health/developmental issues that limit their options, and can require more careful consideration of what would be the best fit for them going forward.

while dudeling certainly has his issues - I would be shocked if he is ready for a 4yr when he's 18.  but at least we can support him while hopefully his development catches up.

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t have a source for statistics.

A lot of struggle, I think.

And I think college in USA is around double cost of Canada.  Our state “public” University is Over 10K per year USA$ for tuition for instate student.

our 'flagship' in-state public school is also around $10K+ for tuition for in-state students.  but even for out-of-state students - tuition/expenses vary widely by institution.

my girls school was considerably more upfront, BUT scholarships made it a better deal than in-state flagship public school - after their own scholarships.  the school 1ds wanted to go to would easily have been twice that AFTER scholarships.

[Pen]

 

4 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

our 'flagship' in-state public school is also around $10K+ for tuition for in-state students.  but even for out-of-state students - tuition/expenses vary widely by institution.

 

I was making the comment to Bluegoat because I think Bluegoat is Canadian and that comparable costs there are around 6k Canadian$ — or about half.  And possibly some other fees etc are also less.  Which can make a difference when thinking about 4 year graduates going on to clerk type jobs.  

4 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

my girls school was considerably more upfront, BUT scholarships made it a better deal than in-state flagship public school - after their own scholarships.  the school 1ds wanted to go to would easily have been twice that AFTER scholarships.

 

Yes.  If Ds would focus on high school and do well, he likely could get an almost “full ride” at a selective or somewhat college because I’m low income.  But he doesn’t and won’t.  

Your state is Washington?  

 

[SKL]

34 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yes, some undergraduate degrees are crap. Some grad degrees are crap too.

That does not mean that reading and talking is the same as learning about something in a good university program.

The move to have so many people go to university, and the focus on job training, has made that a lot worse. They are trying to get a lot of people who don't care about that kind of learning through the programs, maybe who aren't even really suited to it. 

My undergraduate degree was issued in 1988.

Hanging out in the halls of higher learning just for the sake of it sounds great, but at the prices even basic universities charge, the value isn't there.  And no, I don't believe taxes should be raised to provide this expensive option for extended adolescence.

But I also disagree with the implication that people who don't go to college won't gain intellectual growth if they seek it elsewhere.  I know too many trades people who can hold a better conversation than many graduates.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Speaking to your in-text comment  - no, I wouldn't say it's distain.  I think it's interesting that in my experience - which obviously not some kind of scientific study - I find the middle class actually seems to have the least variation in their expectations or desires for education for kids, compared to what I see in working class or upper class families. 

 

But it's middle class families where I've seen the most pressurising of kids to attend university or unwillingness for parents to seriously consider other options for acquiring job skills.

 

years ago I read one of Miss Manners columns where she talked about how they always borrowed money from their middle class friends - as their parents sent them money.  the students from wealthier families - were being taught the value of a dollar by not being given spending money.  (there are local complaints here about bill gates holding up the line in the grocery store while looking for his ice cream coupon)

she was speaking on this to assuage a gentile reader who came to a very prestigious college on a full scholarship and had zero outside resources.  (re: totally broke) he also felt shabbily dressed in comparison.  his friends always wanted him to join them in activities that cost money he simply didn't have. he feared they would think less of him.

Gentile reader: fear not that your upper class friends will think you are broke - but that you are fabulously wealthy.

but those seem to be things that have frequently changed as well.  (though I respect bill gates that you will never find his kids posting on, or engaging in the conspicuous consumption typical of: the "rich kids of Instagram".)

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

What I would wonder is how many would be working retail long-term.

It's not that uncommon for people to do this for a few years after graduating, and then move on.  So I think you'd have to look not just at how many young people with undergraduate degrees are doing that, but what happens to them down the road. 

working retail/similar entry/ while going to school/filling out school applications/figuring out what school to attend/figuring out what to study..... is not the same as going and getting a job in retail and THAT IS the plan.

 

40 minutes ago, SKL said:

Honestly, most of my undergrad classes were bull$hit.  Intellectually, I probably would have been better off just reading, experiencing life, and talking to people without blown-up egos. 

In my case, I needed the undergrad degree to pursue higher goals (law / business) that did lead to both intellectual and career growth.  But it was my factory experience that really helped me understand things.  Not my sociology and psychology courses.  😛

dd has similar feelings about one of her non-department classes.  especially one required class... it was ostensibly to 'teach them how to think'.  she despised this particular prof and regularly asked questions which demonstrated to her classmates "how to *think freely*" (re: the prof wasn't teaching them how to think, but "what" to think).  dd - is an IBDip - and she learned all of this in high school in ToK (study subject from different angles - ask questions and expose weakness in each angle).  the prof grew quite frustrated, and finally told her "you're brilliant, but you're wasting your talents"... dd asked what that meant. (and given everything else that went on) "it means she's ticked you won't be her protégée." 

[LMD]

9 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

I remember the first time we met with the Psychologist re: our son with Asperger's.  My husband kept saying, "We just want him to be a productive member of society."  I honestly was a bit horrified.  He must have said it 3 or 4 times.  The truth (at that time) was, that I didn't know if he would ever fit DH's vision of becoming a "productive member of society."  And at that time, I had come to terms with that.  It took DH quite a bit longer to finally realize that may not work.

He is far exceeding our expectations now, and we are very thankful. 

I take your point and am sorry if I offended you, I'm glad your son is doing well.

I was really only talking (light heartedly) about my NT kids, but I didn't use the phrase 'productive member of society' intentionally - to my mind, useful can mean a lot of different things, perhaps a more accurate wording would be 'purposeful according to ability.' Less utilitarian and more an individual living their best life iykwim.

[teachermom2834]

We have always expected/assumed our children would get at least a 4 year degree. First two kids are in college currently and making steady progress and should graduate barring some unforeseen change in circumstances.

Ds #3 is a high school sophomore and college bound at this point. I would be very surprised to see that change.

Youngest is my dd in 5th grade. I, again, expect college to be the course she takes though who knows at this point. It is, however, my expectation.

Now, I don't think college is for everyone and if it did not seem like the right choice or my dc were not interested we would totally support another path. But it always seemed to be a reasonable path for them. The poll question is about what our expectations are. It certainly isn't a requirement or anything.

I grew up without much of anything extra and my family always struggled. My dad had a masters degree and my mom did as well, even though she was always a stay at home mom. I never considered not going to college. While my family did not have material success to show for their degrees we certainly always were encouraged to value education and we all expected to attend college. 

[SKL]

Yeah, I think "expect" read differently to different people.

I read it as:  what do I think is likely to happen.  Like I "expect" that my kids will procrastinate on their homework this evening.

On the other hand, I just told my kids "I expect you to have your homework done by 6:30," which means "I want it and will be disappointed if it doesn't happen."  We'll see what happens ....

[DawnM]

14 minutes ago, LMD said:

I take your point and am sorry if I offended you, I'm glad your son is doing well.

I was really only talking (light heartedly) about my NT kids, but I didn't use the phrase 'productive member of society' intentionally - to my mind, useful can mean a lot of different things, perhaps a more accurate wording would be 'purposeful according to ability.' Less utilitarian and more an individual living their best life iykwim.

 

Oh, no, I wasn't offended.  But it just made me think of what my husband kept saying.  My son is actually doing well, and we are thankful.  We weren't sure he would.

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I was making the comment to Bluegoat because I think Bluegoat is Canadian and that comparable costs there are around 6k Canadian$ — or about half.  And possibly some other fees etc are also less.  Which can make a difference when thinking about 4 year graduates going on to clerk type jobs.  

 

Yes.  If Ds would focus on high school and do well, he likely could get an almost “full ride” at a selective or somewhat college because I’m low income.  But he doesn’t and won’t.  

Your state is Washington?  

 

I think so.  1dd has a friend from college, who is Canadian and did her ma and phd in Canada.  they got together last week as dd had to go to canada on business.  she's unemployed and can't find a job.  not a lot of demand for her field outside academia, and no openings there. 

yeah, WA.  and I'm grateful for the CC system (has good certificate programs, and  2yr programs. transfer degrees, and the biggest in the system is now offering 4yr degrees in some fields.  they've even built a dorm...)

 my boys were not ready for a 4 yr after high school, so it's been a very good option for them. 

 

[Bluegoat]

30 minutes ago, SKL said:

My undergraduate degree was issued in 1988.

Hanging out in the halls of higher learning just for the sake of it sounds great, but at the prices even basic universities charge, the value isn't there.  And no, I don't believe taxes should be raised to provide this expensive option for extended adolescence.

But I also disagree with the implication that people who don't go to college won't gain intellectual growth if they seek it elsewhere.  I know too many trades people who can hold a better conversation than many graduates.

 

University education started having troubles back in the 70s.

I don't think not going to university means no intellectual growth.  I've known some really well educated people who were self-educated.  My grandfather was a well educated man of that type.   I think it used to be more common than it is today in certain social sectors, and those people are or were far more educated than a lot of the people who now come out of university programs - sometimes I think they are actually made worse off by attending because they think what they had at university makes them an educated person, when really it was not much more than a little reading in a sprinkling of topics.  REal self-education often seems to have an openness about it that those people lack.

But I am not sure why you would think that I am saying that self-education is impossible or doesn't happen.

I find it very odd that there is this idea that spending four years in a good undergraduate program, in that kind of intellectual community, does not offer something different than just reading books oneself.  It's not unlike painting really, people can do amazing things, and sometimes it can be extremely fresh and wonderful precisely because it is from outside the mainstream artistic community. .  At the same time, training can offer skills and context that are very difficult for the self-taught to replicate.

[Bluegoat]

52 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I was making the comment to Bluegoat because I think Bluegoat is Canadian and that comparable costs there are around 6k Canadian$ — or about half.  And possibly some other fees etc are also less.  Which can make a difference when thinking about 4 year graduates going on to clerk type jobs.  

 

Yes.  If Ds would focus on high school and do well, he likely could get an almost “full ride” at a selective or somewhat college because I’m low income.  But he doesn’t and won’t.  

Your state is Washington?  

 

 

Tuition here is about $10,000 a year.  It's not really related to what I was saying though, which was simply that as far as I understand, humanities graduates may not go into "professional" work as quickly, or quite as obviously directly related to their area o study, but they dio in fact seem to get settled in careers that use their skills, rather than beig stuck long-term as a barista or waitressing.

[SKL]

33 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

University education started having troubles back in the 70s.

I don't think not going to university means no intellectual growth.  I've known some really well educated people who were self-educated.  My grandfather was a well educated man of that type.   I think it used to be more common than it is today in certain social sectors, and those people are or were far more educated than a lot of the people who now come out of university programs - sometimes I think they are actually made worse off by attending because they think what they had at university makes them an educated person, when really it was not much more than a little reading in a sprinkling of topics.  REal self-education often seems to have an openness about it that those people lack.

But I am not sure why you would think that I am saying that self-education is impossible or doesn't happen.

I find it very odd that there is this idea that spending four years in a good undergraduate program, in that kind of intellectual community, does not offer something different than just reading books oneself.  It's not unlike painting really, people can do amazing things, and sometimes it can be extremely fresh and wonderful precisely because it is from outside the mainstream artistic community. .  At the same time, training can offer skills and context that are very difficult for the self-taught to replicate.

I didn't say "just reading books oneself."  I said reading AND discussing AND experiencing life.

I don't know what your experience is, but I have no trouble understanding how a person with a hungry mind can develop that mind outside of college.  And a person who is working rather than attending full-time school is also gaining a lot more "real life" experience, which IMO is a lot more valuable than the fake experience young people get on college campuses.  I mean, the campus experience is fun and all that - it can make you feel oh so smart and relevant - but it is some degrees removed from the real world.

[Pen]

26 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Tuition here is about $10,000 a year.  It's not really related to what I was saying though, which was simply that as far as I understand, humanities graduates may not go into "professional" work as quickly, or quite as obviously directly related to their area o study, but they dio in fact seem to get settled in careers that use their skills, rather than beig stuck long-term as a barista or waitressing.

 

Ah.  I had seen $5646 Canadian at UBC for in province (or in country?) students.   I guess it varies a lot across Canada.  Though that can be true in USA too.  

 

I see what you are saying as your important point.  

But to some degree or in some cases, that may be by dint of having to find something to pay off those debts, which may lead to additional schooling needed with yet more debt to get a “better” job.    

I think that model works better if family finances or scholarships allow graduation without debt load.  Then maybe a couple of years to “find oneself “ then off to law school or med school or architecture school, or whatever.  

[Pen]

I guess another thing is that I have been seeing college ads arriving now for Ds.  

Glossy brochures promising the world from Stupendous College, and huge tuitions— not the state public university cost which is bad enough, but 30, 40k per year for what I expect may be a largely worthless piece of paper after 4 years, assuming graduation even occurs.   

[Bluegoat]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I didn't say "just reading books oneself."  I said reading AND discussing AND experiencing life.

I don't know what your experience is, but I have no trouble understanding how a person with a hungry mind can develop that mind outside of college.  And a person who is working rather than attending full-time school is also gaining a lot more "real life" experience, which IMO is a lot more valuable than the fake experience young people get on college campuses.  I mean, the campus experience is fun and all that - it can make you feel oh so smart and relevant - but it is some degrees removed from the real world.

 

 I am not talking about people being unable to develop a mind outside of the college.  As I said, I think people do that, reading and discussing and experiencing life all contribute to that.

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

I guess another thing is that I have been seeing college ads arriving now for Ds.  

Glossy brochures promising the world from Stupendous College, and huge tuitions— not the state public university cost which is bad enough, but 30, 40k per year for what I expect may be a largely worthless piece of paper after 4 years, assuming graduation even occurs.   

because 1dd was a classics major  (and her grades and an IBDip) - it seemed like we heard from everyone and their dog.  seriously - I lost count at 118 different schools.  she wanted to go to new England - so everything out side of it was automatically tossed.  (she wanted snow, but not as much as the upper Midwest.)

don't let the sticker price deceive you.  look at the endowment of each school, how much financial aid to they award?  how much in scholarships do they award?  dd went to a school with a very healthy endowment allowing very generous scholarships to students.  it was cheaper to go to the $35K a year with room & board (when she started), than the $7K state school (with very modest grants and scholarships) and live at home.  the quality of education and opportunities received was no comparison - it really was superior in areas of intangibles.   

[Pen]

45 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

because 1dd was a classics major  (and her grades and an IBDip) - it seemed like we heard from everyone and their dog.  seriously - I lost count at 118 different schools.  she wanted to go to new England - so everything out side of it was automatically tossed.  (she wanted snow, but not as much as the upper Midwest.)

don't let the sticker price deceive you.  look at the endowment of each school, how much financial aid to they award?  how much in scholarships do they award?  dd went to a school with a very healthy endowment allowing very generous scholarships to students.  it was cheaper to go to the $35K a year with room & board (when she started), than the $7K state school (with very modest grants and scholarships) and live at home.  the quality of education and opportunities received was no comparison - it really was superior in areas of intangibles.   

 

I know.  I’be tried to convince Ds that studying now could be long term cost effective.

Stupedous U we are getting ads from aren’t places I recognize to be good schools...  I think they are places preying on kids and families who may fall for the glossy pictures.  

They’re the undergrad version of Foggy Bottom inRooster Bar (by John Grisham) law school.  I think.  I had a childhood friend get sucked into such a place.   They gave her big scholarship year one, then dropped it, and she learned it wasn’t considered an ok place from transfer POV.  

Next questionable ad I see maybe I’ll link and can be told if it’s legit good or not. 

So far only one recognizable to me as legit 

(and thus memorable) has been Lewis and Clark. 

[Donna]

I had different expectations for each of my kids but ultimately it was up to them to decide what they'd like to do to earn a living.

My oldest, I thought would go to college and get at least a four year degree--he went for a semester then decided he had no idea what he wanted to do but thought he'd prefer a trade so is now an electrician apprentice.

My middle ds, I never expected would go to college as he was always better working with his hands. He took a few courses on guitar building and now does that plus construction-type work.

I expected dd would go to college and get a 4-year degree (most likely at least a MA before she finished) and she most likely still will but it might be a more round-about path for her than graduating high school and going to college. She'll have nearly two years finished doing DE at the community college while in high school but, beginning this summer, will be touring professionally with her music (much more than we've been doing until now) so she may decide to take a few courses at a time to finish up a BA degree while she tours. (We'll see how she feels about touring once she's done it. She may decide she doesn't want to live on the road 4-6 months at a time.) 

I have a master's degree.

[rebcoola]

I expect them to have a realistic plan to be a functioning adult.  I was pushed very hard to achieve academically and go to  a 4yr college at least because it would be waste of my brains to do anything else.  I dropped out I would have be much better served entering the military or taking a gap year.  My girls are young right now but I'm not sure either will do  a  4yr degree I expect both to do running start in high school.  1 will probably enter the military the other hasn't shown much interest in anything yet.

[Pen]

Maybe something like Columbia College Chicago?  That’s not an actual one we got, but I found it in an article, a name that sounds like a more known prestige place, high acceptance rate, less than 50% graduation rate... 

[SereneHome]

I didn't read the thread yet nor could vote bc "my" option wasn't there.

I don't care whether it's a 4 yr degree or skilled type of profession - they need to have a profession!  Period.  Something.  I would prefer that if they chose something in the field of physical labor they also had plan B as well.

I have Masters, husband has 3 Bachelor's degrees.  The ONLY reason I went to school was bc I knew that I couldn't make money any other way.  I don't consider college a necessity.  I consider acquiring a self-supporting skills a necessity.

I don't know why my husband went to college (I should ask him tomorrow).  The man is talented in sooooo many ways.  He could have done anything!  (and we wouldn't still be paying his student loans)  But I just can do accounting and taxes 🙂

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

I know.  I’be tried to convince Ds that studying now could be long term cost effective.

Stupedous U we are getting ads from aren’t places I recognize to be good schools...  I think they are places preying on kids and families who may fall for the glossy pictures.  

They’re the undergrad version of Foggy Bottom inRooster Bar (by John Grisham) law school.  I think.  I had a childhood friend get sucked into such a place.   They gave her big scholarship year one, then dropped it, and she learned it wasn’t considered an ok place from transfer POV.  

Next questionable ad I see maybe I’ll link and can be told if it’s legit good or not. 

So far only one recognizable to me as legit 

(and thus memorable) has been Lewis and Clark. 

I learned a lot about specialty never heard of, but legit schools with 1dd.

I'd heard of slippery rock - because dh's a football fan, and they will tell their score at the other college football games (even though they have a nothing football team.)

graduation rate in four years is good to know.  where the girls went, once they've declared a major - that's it.  no changes.  they want them graduated in four years.

1 hour ago, Donna said:

I 

My middle ds, I never expected would go to college as he was always better working with his hands. He took a few courses on guitar building and now does that plus construction-type work. 

1ds is my kid I would have said "least likely to do anything requiring math".  the only one who didn't start calculus in high school because he didn't "get" math.  he's an engineer., though he was 24 before he decided he wanted to do that.

 

are guitar makers similar to a luthier?  both strings on hollow wood with finger boards...very specialized.

 

[TheReader]

so, out of respect for your wishes on the poll, I only voted in 1-6 once, marking that we expect them to get a bachelor's degree. Both DH & I have that at a minimum (DH also has his Masters). In reality, I also marked "puppies are cute" because I don't have the same expectation for my youngest; he has severe dyslexia and other LDs, although is functioning on grade level for the first time, and won't enter high school for another year. So, right now, and for the past few years, I've been trying to get DH to open up to the possibility of not college for him. Over the next five years, as he continues to make gains, that expectation may shift.

And, well, honestly.....it's more DH's expectation than my own, but the older boys have bought into it and are in college/college bound, so at this point, yes, it's my expectation too. I had quiet conversations with both boys over the years, and out loud conversations with DH over the years, letting them all know that yes, sure, college is a wonderful goal but other things are good too, so that if any of the boys had felt college wasn't for them....I think they would have felt safe speaking up and I would have supported them/advocated for their chosen path with DH. I know that DH feels it much more strongly than me, and he is coming from a place where in his world/career circles, the degree is a necessity. Period. I hope that between the two of us we presented a balanced view of things for the boys......

Bottom line: I expect each of them to be able to support themselves and any family they have in the future. In whatever way works best for each of them. (DH strongly prefers it be with a college degree)

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

so, out of respect for your wishes on the poll, I only voted in 1-6 once, marking that we expect them to get a bachelor's degree. Both DH & I have that at a minimum (DH also has his Masters). In reality, I also marked "puppies are cute" because I don't have the same expectation for my youngest; he has severe dyslexia and other LDs, although is functioning on grade level for the first time, and won't enter high school for another year. So, right now, and for the past few years, I've been trying to get DH to open up to the possibility of not college for him. Over the next five years, as he continues to make gains, that expectation may shift.

 

Bottom line: I expect each of them to be able to support themselves and any family they have in the future. In whatever way works best for each of them. (DH strongly prefers it be with a college degree)

I know LD's et. al. are game changes, and I just assumed people would vote accordingly.  I have one who is not NT, and it is a game changer.  how much, varies with each child.  there are still a lot of options out there, but it depends what they can do.  and if we can continue to support them while they mature to where they are more capable.