cave canem Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 4:17 PM, Pen said: And it is not clear that cave Canem has enough influence or control within their home to achieve only driving with a parent in the car. I expect a bright kid may even already have an extra set of keys copied. I can't imagine why much at all about my home would be clear to you, since I am just some lady on an internet forum. None of my kids is bright enough to figure out how to drive a car from the confines of his room, no matter how many keys might be copied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, cave canem said: I can't imagine why much at all about my home would be clear to you, since I am just some lady on an internet forum. None of my kids is bright enough to figure out how to drive a car from the confines of his room, no matter how many keys might be copied. Underline added for emphasis below: On 3/16/2019 at 1:17 PM, Pen said: And it is not clear that cave Canem has enough influence or control within their home to achieve only driving with a parent in the car. I expect a bright kid may even already have an extra set of keys copied. I can't imagine why much at all about my home would be clear to you, since I am just some lady on an internet forum. None of my kids is bright enough to figure out how to drive a car from the confines of his room, no matter how many ——- exactly. Not clear to me. I think you missed the word “not” . “Not clear” does not mean clear. It means “not clear”. Why not clear? Because of your own post about whatever it was you said “only people in dark ages” thinking they whatever... like you are in enlightenment era of less control over your kid— probably not what you meant, but that’s how it came across... —- in terms of your question, yes, following that law is required in our family. Ditto other laws absent emergency reason (real emergency) not to. If you want only a yes or no, you can specify that clearly in your opening post, which to me did not clearly so indicate. or even set up a survey to get your answer as a percent one way or the other... Edited March 18, 2019 by Pen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cave canem Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 11:53 PM, gardenmom5 said: however, he's claiming *their parents" are *allowing* them to disregard the law. this is where I call baloney. it is likely they are just as deceptive about the practice with their parents as he is with his own parents. I don't believe that I reported that he said the parents *allow* bunches of kids to drive around. I don't know whether he said that or not. I know myself of parents that allow their kids to violate these sorts of driving prohibitions. That's not baloney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cave canem Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/17/2019 at 1:17 AM, Pen said: It appears that cave Canem isn’t immediately convinced that teens should be following these laws, nor speed limit laws , etc. I don't understand what I did to deserve that remark, but I guess we'll just have to conclude that appearances can be deceiving. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, cave canem said: The thing I am finding bizarre about this conversation is that my question was about whether other parents require their teen to follow a certain law. It is a really simple question. I didn't ask whether my son should have to or what his consequences should be. I don't mind hearing opinions about that, but I don't see why it interferes with understanding the question I posed. I am rarely accused of being too chatty, but I am guessing that I gave too much background here and people assume I think it's all relevant to my final question. Honestly, you may have been better off if you had posted a poll without giving any details about your ds. You included information about your son having been deceitful and about him not caring about this law, so I’m not sure why you would be surprised that people considered those things when they responded to your question. Dishonesty and a disregard for the law are not small matters. Realistically, if you had posted in your OP that you’d caught your son driving with other teens in the car but that he was immediately remorseful, I think our responses would have been quite different. The idea that he didn’t care about the law and the knowledge that he was dishonest with you were probably more important to most of us than the fact that he had broken the law once or twice. We all make mistakes, but if we aren’t remorseful and we don’t change our behavior, that’s the bigger issue. I’m sorry if you were offended by some of our replies, but I think everyone was posting in good faith and had your son’s safety in mind. Edited March 18, 2019 by Catwoman 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 2:14 PM, gardenmom5 said: the reason for that law is the fact teens having teen friends in the car with them are more likely to be in an accident. that's why the law was implemented. in our state - it's six months after they get their license that they are banned from any non-sibling minors in their car. watch teen drivers outside the high school some time. I drive past one at dismissal time on a regular basis. some of them are pretty darn scary- and every single scary one had other teens in their car. (or were texting.) eta: I'll add I've been through this with four (now all adults), and have another one approaching (who is not *anywhere* near ready to even have a permit.) We have that law too, 6 months. And my daughter did wait. And after that, she was super strict about enforcing the seatbelt law (which, for some weird AL? deep South? Appalachian? or whatever reason, a number of folks here and their children are not used to wearing seat belts--- and it really shows in the death rates of automobile accidents). She often preferred to be driving rather than another teen because she was (and is) very cautious but also not a timid driver (which is also dangerous). The speeding thing is a different animal. Unsafe speeds for the circumstances is what we go by. That can mean safe speed can be under, at or over the speed limit, depending on conditions, traffic, etc. And of course, responsibility if one is speeding and caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) On 3/16/2019 at 11:37 AM, cave canem said: My minor teen recently got his driver's license and bought a car. We discussed the expectations around the car beforehand. A condition of having the car was that he had to follow our state laws for minor drivers. In particular we pointed out that law does not allow him to have passengers under age 18 outside of the family. He agreed to follow that law. He has had the car a short time and has been deceiving us about following that law. He says it is unreasonable because a lot of teens load all of their friends into the car and drive around. If you have a similar law in your state, do you expect your teen driver to cooperate with it? On 3/16/2019 at 11:41 AM, cave canem said: Ha! You are obviously living in the Dark Ages and are unaware of the moral superiority of someone who doesn't do things just because a parent says so. On 3/16/2019 at 12:04 PM, cave canem said: True, but there are actual laws that wouldn't be dealbreakers for using a car. I am sure that he doesn't always stay under the speed limit. 4 hours ago, cave canem said: I don't understand what I did to deserve that remark, but I guess we'll just have to conclude that appearances can be deceiving. Your thread title starts with the question “teen drivers— should they have to follow this law?” it then leads into the opening , first quote, where you in no way indicate that you think teen drivers should follow it more like you did expect that, originally ... but at point of writing, were being swayed or considering being swayed by your teen’s arguments that others don’t and he shouldn’t have to either... then your second post, I suppose now it was meant to be a jokey thing (some people seem to have given it a haha emoji, I don’t find it haha at all maybe sad emoji would fit better) about dark ages, but where those of us who have known dead teens from crashes may not (speaking for myself, certainly do not) find at all funny... seems to, at best, trivialize this topic related to a top cause of teen death or permanent disability... (and more than that seems to suggest that you lack parental authority with your teen driver) then 3rd quoted post down: in reply to people saying yes they do expect that law to be followed, you seem to argue against it, you wrote: but there are “actual laws” that wouldn’t be dealbreakers. Like speed limit... again an area where some of us may have personal relationship with someone who has died from speeding infractions. And as I understood it, as well signifying that you don’t consider the passenger restriction laws for teen drivers to be “actual laws” sort of more what ? Pseudo pretend laws? A fake law? that you’re deciding whether it’s important or not? In some ways maybe this is truly so because police in some places haven’t been given authorization to stop a driver appearing to be in violation of the teen passenger laws, unless there’s another traffic violation as well. So in that sense, I guess you are right in a way... the laws are lacking significant teeth. I guess the parents are supposed to be the teeth. Whereas speeding is more “actual” since police everywhere I know of can stop a driver for that. More recent post seems to indicate otherwise...that it’s an issue with *others* at your teen’s school...but that’s not at all the way it read...to me... Edited March 19, 2019 by Pen 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Mine were expected to follow the laws or they weren't allowed to drive. No keys, no car. Period. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Oh heck yeah. Because it's the law. And yes, because I said so. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cave canem Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 22 hours ago, Catwoman said: Honestly, you may have been better off if you had posted a poll without giving any details about your ds. You included information about your son having been deceitful and about him not caring about this law, so I’m not sure why you would be surprised that people considered those things when they responded to your question. Dishonesty and a disregard for the law are not small matters. Realistically, if you had posted in your OP that you’d caught your son driving with other teens in the car but that he was immediately remorseful, I think our responses would have been quite different. The idea that he didn’t care about the law and the knowledge that he was dishonest with you were probably more important to most of us than the fact that he had broken the law once or twice. We all make mistakes, but if we aren’t remorseful and we don’t change our behavior, that’s the bigger issue. I’m sorry if you were offended by some of our replies, but I think everyone was posting in good faith and had your son’s safety in mind. I am not offended at all. I see that you are right, though, about using a poll for that info. However, I was glad to hear the support for severe, long-term consequences. As I wrote, the community support here isn't strong. I didn't understand remarks that the question couldn't be understood, which is what I was responding to in the quote. I still don't understand this logic: Lee doesn’t allow X; Lee’s kid did X; therefore Lee doesn’t care whether her kid did X. Lee is wondering what the WTM community thinks about this; therefore Lee doesn't think what she said she thinks about it. Lee’s kid didn’t show immediate contrition; therefore, Lee doesn’t care about contrition. A lot of logical leaps. Since my kid gave a kid a ride home and we see some teens that cruise around en masse here, and I believe most drivers have crept over the speed limit; therefore those teens are his squad, he does whatever they do, he said things about their parents that were lies, he likely abuses drugs while driving, he didn't take driver's ed, I don't think laws should be enforced, I am fine with speeding, etc. Not offended, just surprised at this on a classical-ed-oriented forum. Thank you for chatting, Cat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 11:37 AM, cave canem said: He says it is unreasonable because a lot of teens load all of their friends into the car and drive around. I don't believe that I reported that he said the parents *allow* bunches of kids to drive around. I don't know whether he said that or not. I know myself of parents that allow their kids to violate these sorts of driving prohibitions. That's not baloney. I doubt every single one of those teens are driving around with a car full of teens with their parents permission. (that's pretty minor driving behavior about what my mother allowed or turned her head away from because she didn't want to deal with it.) he can start a new trend. taking a longer view - being safe -, and not what is convenient in the moment - let alone what "everyone else is doing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 On 3/18/2019 at 4:00 PM, TravelingChris said: The speeding thing is a different animal. Unsafe speeds for the circumstances is what we go by. That can mean safe speed can be under, at or over the speed limit, depending on conditions, traffic, etc. And of course, responsibility if one is speeding and caught. Other than a rare emergency situation like needing to get someone to hospital, when is faster than speed limit safer than at or under speed limit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 34 minutes ago, Pen said: Other than a rare emergency situation like needing to get someone to hospital, when is faster than speed limit safer than at or under speed limit? When you're about to get mowed down in fast traffic. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Quote A lot of logical leaps. Logic is not merely a matter of formal mathematical type logic. Life experience and inferential reasoning are also part of logic. Quote therefore those teens are his squad, In my personal experience kids don’t usually use what other kids do as an argument for being allowed to do something unless either the other kids are their buddies or they emulate those kids. There are plenty of high schools with different groups, so that one group is doing x certainly doesn’t mean everyone is doing x. Nonetheless, my own experience is that teens saying, but Mom, it’s not fair, lots of kids do x means that there’s some connection, actual or wishful between the kid and x or the kid and the x doers. When that’s not the case IME there tends to be a different presentation like, OMG, Mom, you should see what the Q group did, they were acting like such dwerps: they piled all their friends into Name’s car and then they... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 38 minutes ago, Pen said: Other than a rare emergency situation like needing to get someone to hospital, when is faster than speed limit safer than at or under speed limit? Under the speed limit can be dangerous. I have come up behind drivers going 10 miles or so under the speed limit on the freeway and it makes a dangerous situation esp. when the rest of traffic is going the speed limit or slightly above. (This is different than in rush hour when everyone is going under due to traffic congestion.) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, katilac said: When you're about to get mowed down in fast traffic. 5 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said: Under the speed limit can be dangerous. I have come up behind drivers going 10 miles or so under the speed limit on the freeway and it makes a dangerous situation esp. when the rest of traffic is going the speed limit or slightly above. (This is different than in rush hour when everyone is going under due to traffic congestion.) Ok , I agree with both of those. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I have read a few of the responses, but not all the pages. I would absolutely expect a teen driver to follow that law. We have that type of law in our state & I, sadly, know one of the families affected by a wreck that helped lead to getting this legislation in place for our state. The teen that our family knew was driving the car. She survived, but some of her friends didn't. She will be living with that the rest of her life. And the families that lost their children/siblings/etc. will live with that forever too. It was horrendous, & I say that as an outsider seeing the impact. Laws like this originated out of horrific wrecks & lost lives. They are not isolated incidents & they happen in every state, which is why many states have such laws. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 On 3/17/2019 at 4:50 PM, TechWife said: Walking, biking and public transportation build great decision making skills - it would seem to me that those who use those avenues at younger ages will be better drivers if/when they do learn to drive at an older age. A Not necessarily. They utilize different skills. We knew lots of city kids who were whizzes at getting around with public transportation, but were simply terrible behind the wheel. Dd was one of a few suburban kids on a team of mostly city kids. The suburban kids were much better drivers than the city kids. One of her friends really took a long time to develop the concentration and cool head necessary to operate a vehicle outside of a parking lot. She had used public transportation independently for years to get to school. Once the routine was established, there weren't many decisions to make and, depending on the length of the trip, you could easily zone off ... checking one's phone, or reading or whatever. Many of the parents were OK with their kids being in the car with dd (after the passenger restriction no longer applied) than with her friends who lived in the city. I think that city kids often spend a lot less time in cars, period. And they have more trouble getting in the required supervised driving hours because public transportation is much easier for them. For the suburban kids, the bus and train options are much more limited. All of my kids got their learners' permits as soon as it was legal because I wanted them to get as much supervised driving experience as possible before they headed off to college. My kids did get their licenses at 16, but that didn't mean they had the car whenever they wanted it. We limited where they went without us, gradually allowing more freedom as they showed readiness. I didn't want to send my kid off to college without having lots of experience, both with supervision and with some independent driving for making navigation decisions on their own. On 3/18/2019 at 9:25 AM, vonfirmath said: Agreed. I was fairly mature as a new driver. But the scariest moment driving was when I had the entire youth group in the car (My sister and three other girls) and ended up driving up the off ramp to the freeway (At the time BCS still had two way feeder roads on Highway 6). We discovered it before we got ON the freeway and I got back on the feeder road. But I absolutely believe having other people in the car contributed to the mistake in the first place and it was only by the grace of God we did not end up in a accident. I, too, have experienced difficulty when having a carload full of people rather than when by myself. I always made whoever sat in front to act as navigator, even in familiar areas. I missed an exit when I had a bunch of kids in the car because they were all talking. I finally had to enforce 5 minutes of silence (except for my navigator) until we got back on route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonfirmath Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 14 hours ago, Pen said: Other than a rare emergency situation like needing to get someone to hospital, when is faster than speed limit safer than at or under speed limit? *sigh* Driving in Houston. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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