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teen drivers--should they have to follow this law?


cave canem
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My rules are generally stricter than the laws and definitly than how laws are enforced. I only wish I could enforce the rules on other adults who seem pretty entitled to kill others but I digress.

 

That being said laws are a blunt tool. I certainly would want my child to give a ride to someone if they were in danger. Say their car is stuck in the ditch and it's 20 below 0 or if there was an injury and they happened to be driving by already. Obviously if they can call my child, they could call someone else so I don't mean being called to a situation.   If so and so needed a ride from school or someplace safe than they should call someone else or even me. 

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Nowadays a lot of laws relating to age also have exceptions for helping a person in an emergency.

I would advise my kid to take the hit if it were a serious emergency.  (Worded so they can't manipulate every turn of events into an emergency.)

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As far as not letting teens drive at all until they are adults I worry they will get less time with adult drivers. Of course, then I realize most adult drivers should NOT be teaching teens to drive at all. I rather think that tests should be way harder for both adults and teens. I also think tests on new laws should be given at least once a decade. Adults need to be held to higher standards too including the elderly.

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1 minute ago, frogger said:

As far as not letting teens drive at all until they are adults I worry they will get less time with adult drivers. Of course, then I realize most adult drivers should NOT be teaching teens to drive at all. I rather think that tests should be way harder for both adults and teens. I also think tests on new laws should be given at least once a decade. Adults need to be held to higher standards too including the elderly.

I initially thought that, but if you keep permits at age 16 maybe it wouldn't? And maybe the tradeoff of waiting vs. more time driving with parents would justify it.

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23 hours ago, cave canem said:

My minor teen recently got his driver's license and bought a car.  We discussed the expectations around the car beforehand.  A condition of having the car was that he had to follow our state laws for minor drivers.  In particular we pointed out that law does not allow him to have passengers under age 18 outside of the family.  He agreed to follow that law.

He has had the car a short time and has been deceiving us about following that law.  He says it is unreasonable because a lot of teens load all of their friends into the car and drive around.

If you have a similar law in your state, do you expect your teen driver to cooperate with it?

 

 

 

22 hours ago, cave canem said:

Ha!  You are obviously living in the Dark Ages and are unaware of the moral superiority of someone who doesn't do things just because a parent says so.

 

22 hours ago, cave canem said:

True, but there are actual laws that wouldn't be dealbreakers for using a car.  I am sure that he doesn't always stay under the speed limit.

 

 

Quote

This kid got caught doing one specific thing. So now suddenly he must be suspect for a whole host of other bad driving behavior?

 

 

The boy was supposed to follow the law .  The boy got caught doing one specific thing the parent thinks is important enough to consider taking action on, apparently.  Or at least important enough to see if others here think it’s important.

The boy is presumed by parent to also drive above speed limit.  But the parent doesn’t seem to think that important. 

The boy is presumed to not be doing things the parents say to do and to feel morally superior.

The boy seems to live in a place where teens loading all their friends into a vehicle and driving “around” is a thing to do.  

 What is making driving “around” with a group of teens fun?  

 

Edited by Pen
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I have one kid that hasn't wanted to get his license. He gets himself most everywhere- bike, walk or bus. He can get his license when he feels ready.

my dd2 got her license within a week of turning 16. She drives about 30 minutes to and from practice- twice a day, nearly every day but Sunday. If she had to take a bus, it would take almost two hours each way. Not a possibility.  She did that driving while she had her permit and has done it in all kinds of weather for almost a year. Frankly, that is more driving than any kid I know and most adults. She has more hours behind the wheel this year than her father.

Waiting until 18 might work in places with good public transit and a smaller, denser footprint. Not here, not very well.

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9 minutes ago, Frances said:

I understand it is different in different parts of the country. That’s why I disagree with people who make a sweeping generalization about it being infantilizing when teens wait until 18. Although as I noted above, it was interesting to me observing my son’s friends and acquaintances, all of whom could readily bike, walk, or use public transportation. Those who waited until 18 were the same ones getting themselves places regularly at much younger ages than those who got a license at 16. And in general, the ones getting a license at 16 were also the ones being given cars by their parents, rather than buying their own.

Well, it's no more helpful to make sweeping generalizations in the opposite direction, though. 

I agree with Farrar that it's not realistic to say we should do things here the way they are done in a small, relatively homogeneous European country. There are just too many factors at play. I realize you didn't advocate that specifically, I'm just making an observation.

If we had alternative options for transportation, I'd absolutely have my kids using them. For reasons I mentioned above, I'd be totally fine with my kids holding off until 18 or later to start driving. I'm not so fine with being their sole means of going out in public until that time. I don't think it's good for them, and it's not great for me either.

Infantilizing is perhaps an overstatement, but in areas like mine it is extremely limiting to refuse a driver's license to 16- and 17-year-olds. I expect my dd will begin driving independently at 16, and yes, we will buy her a (safe, reliable, but not fancy) used car. Without transportation, it's difficult to maintain a job, so she won't have had the opportunity to earn enough to buy her own. I will expect her to follow all applicable laws and handle herself appropriately, and should she not do so, she will lose her privileges -- which may also mean she loses her ability to participate in activities if I am unavailable to transport her.

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2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I initially thought that, but if you keep permits at age 16 maybe it wouldn't? And maybe the tradeoff of waiting vs. more time driving with parents would justify it.

I don't know. I feel like there should be a gradual adjustment to adulthood. Honestly, I wish parents would parent their children so the state didn't have to kwim. 

 

Should a parent have to drive a 17 year old to work 5 days a week? Will job experience and community experience suffer? 

A law that restricts big groups of teens having a blast in the car while allowing a kid to get to work is a better comprimise I think.

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Well, Farrar, I can tell you quite honestly that I've never broken a law while in a car 🙂

I can also tell you that I see people every day making right turns on red lights (illegal in NYC except where posted), failing to stop at the sign, stopping in front of the line*, and going above the speed limit. I bet every one of those drivers thinks it's okay, but I watch them nearly crash into other cars and pedestrians all the time, and sometimes not "nearly" - the corner store by my house has had to replace one exterior wall four times in the past thirty years, and that's WITH heavy duty bollards up! The church up the hill from me, likewise, has had to replace their barrier twice, and honestly I'm not sure how cars are crashing into it making the turn. It's a pretty steep hill, I just don't see how they get the speed to hit it at the angle the dents are in.

Lots of people are really, really bad drivers, and I really think we need to start enforcing these "minor" traffic laws so they'll start being better drivers. And yes, we need to start moving away from cars as a default, for a lot of reasons, which starts with making stricter standards for licenses. We can make all communities accessible - public transportation and walkable! - but we're not going to do it so long as people keep thinking "cars cars cars".

* Every single day I see three cars parked in front of the line on the hill by my house during rush hour, and every single day I see them frantically trying to back up, back up, back up so a bus or truck can make that turn. There is a reason that line is so far from the corner, but they always think they know better. They drive up and down that hill every day but they think they know better. Then when you see somebody with the experience to do what they ought - the guys behind them honk!

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3 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Well, it's no more helpful to make sweeping generalizations in the opposite direction, though. 

I agree with Farrar that it's not realistic to say we should do things here the way they are done in a small, relatively homogeneous European country. There are just too many factors at play. I realize you didn't advocate that specifically, I'm just making an observation.

If we had alternative options for transportation, I'd absolutely have my kids using them. For reasons I mentioned above, I'd be totally fine with my kids holding off until 18 or later to start driving. I'm not so fine with being their sole means of going out in public until that time. I don't think it's good for them, and it's not great for me either.

Infantilizing is perhaps an overstatement, but in areas like mine it is extremely limiting to refuse a driver's license to 16- and 17-year-olds. I expect my dd will begin driving independently at 16, and yes, we will buy her a (safe, reliable, but not fancy) used car. Without transportation, it's difficult to maintain a job, so she won't have had the opportunity to earn enough to buy her own. I will expect her to follow all applicable laws and handle herself appropriately, and should she not do so, she will lose her privileges -- which may also mean she loses her ability to participate in activities if I am unavailable to transport her.

I wasn’t making a sweeping generalization. I was simply sharing my antecdotal experience in my small corner of the world. I think kids can be responsible,mature, and not infantilized whether they get a license at 16, 18, or older and whether they buy their own car or the parent’s purchase one and whether they always or never walk,bike, or take public transportation.

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20 hours ago, Terabith said:

I can imagine situations in which I wouldn’t require them to follow the law, but they all pretty much revolve around an apocalypse or major disaster.  Gunman is shooting up the church?  Squeeze the whole youth group in there and get out.  Zombie apocalypse?  Pile folks in and head for the safest location.  Dam broke and we are in Nebraska with life threatening flooding?  Take people to safety.  Government is rounding up all your Jewish or Hispanic friends to take them to concentration camps!  Hell yeah, drive them to emergency shelters.  Sally doesn’t have a ride?  Call me or Sally’s mother.  If it’s not an end of the world life or death scenario, follow the damned laws.  

Yep.  

Follow or face the consequences.  Don't call me for bail if you do something stupid.  Zombie apocalypse?  All bets are off.

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

Yet some people on this board think we are infantilizing teens when they choose to wait until 18 to get a driver’s license and instead walk, bike, or use public transportation.

 

Things come with a cost.  That cost may be little to a city kid with a bus stop around the corner. It may mean for a rural kid that they can't participate in a job or any extra curricular or get extra tutoring. It could really change the trajectory of their life. This is why parents are better parents than the state.  It sucks that many are oblivious.

I would really like to see a decrease in the giant subsidies towards roads. People always say, "It won't work here" but that's code for "I'm happy that you are paying lots of money for my road and I like it."

Many people are never allowed to get a licence their whole life and find a way. They find a way despite all subsidies going to roads snd drivers trying to kill them at every turn.

 

Edited by frogger
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Every year around here there are a handful of teen driver deaths that usually involve speed and not wearing seat belts. It's sad and infuriating. Yes, new driver laws need to be obeyed. They're in place for a reason, not just to punish new drivers who can't drive their friends around. 

 

I am one of those obnoxious people that doesn't speed. It's not that I am that principled, it's just I quit being in a hurry years ago and when I have sped in the past, I get caught. I did go through an intersection on yellow the other day, it turned red while I was in the middle of the intersection and cop happened to be right in that intersection. Someone honked at me, but I didn't get pulled over. 

 

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3 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Things come with a cost.  That cost may be little to a city kid with a bus stop around the corner. It may mean for a rural kid that they can't participate in a job or any extra curricular or get extra tutoring. It could really change the trajectory of their life. This is why parents are better parents than the state.  It sucks that many are oblivious.

I would really like to see a decrease in the giant subsidies towards roads. People always say, "It won't work here" but that's code for "I'm happy that you are paying lots of money for my road and I like it."

Many people are never allowed to get a licence their whole life and find a way. They find a way despite all subsidies going to roads snd driver's trying to kill them at every turn.

 

I’m absolutely fine with kids getting their driver’s license at 16 with the current restrictions many states impose. The only thing I disagree with is people making sweeping generalizations about teens who wait. Where I grew up, at 14 teens who lived rurally could get a special permit allowing them to drive alone or with siblings to and from school activities. The majority of these kids had been driving on farms from a young age. I don’t know if that is still allowed there, but it certainly made sense to me.

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

Yet some people on this board think we are infantilizing teens when they choose to wait until 18 to get a driver’s license and instead walk, bike, or use public transportation.

it's already been brought up - that is NOT an option for many.  I live in a city, with an overrated public transit system (and a heck of a lot of hills - which makes biking difficult).  

I had to force one kid to learn to drive - still refused to get his license.  then he got a job.  to take public transit - it was transferring to a second bus, and walking a mile with no sidewalks after he got off the bus. it would have taken  at least 75 minutes - ONE WAY.  *or* … a 15 - 20 minute drive door to door.  He got his license before his first day.

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

It's pretty obvious when the no U-turn sign is right there, as is the case at every intersection where it's not allowed in my not-a-state and both the bordering states.

Teens around me don't drive wild for fun.  

most of the country is not dense city.  and even living in a, not-dense, city - I knew a lot of teens who drove wild for fun.  I live near a high school where a lot of teens drive.  I've personally witnessed kids (a girl!)  "fishtailing" for fun on a busy two-lane road. (I was close enough to see her face when she did it.)

22 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I initially thought that, but if you keep permits at age 16 maybe it wouldn't? And maybe the tradeoff of waiting vs. more time driving with parents would justify it.

here - they can get a permit at 15 if they're signed up for driver's ed.  otherwise it's 15 1/2 for a permit.

12 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Well, Farrar, I can tell you quite honestly that I've never broken a law while in a car 🙂

I can also tell you that I see people every day making right turns on red lights (illegal in NYC except where posted), failing to stop at the sign, stopping in front of the line*, and going above the speed limit. I bet every one of those drivers thinks it's okay, but I watch them nearly crash into other cars and pedestrians all the time, and sometimes not "nearly" - the corner store by my house has had to replace one exterior wall four times in the past thirty years, and that's WITH heavy duty bollards up! The church up the hill from me, likewise, has had to replace their barrier twice, and honestly I'm not sure how cars are crashing into it making the turn. It's a pretty steep hill, I just don't see how they get the speed to hit it at the angle the dents are in.

Lots of people are really, really bad drivers, and I really think we need to start enforcing these "minor" traffic laws so they'll start being better drivers. And yes, we need to start moving away from cars as a default, for a lot of reasons, which starts with making stricter standards for licenses. We can make all communities accessible - public transportation and walkable! - but we're not going to do it so long as people keep thinking "cars cars cars".

* Every single day I see three cars parked in front of the line on the hill by my house during rush hour, and every single day I see them frantically trying to back up, back up, back up so a bus or truck can make that turn. There is a reason that line is so far from the corner, but they always think they know better. They drive up and down that hill every day but they think they know better. Then when you see somebody with the experience to do what they ought - the guys behind them honk!

re: the bolded. ---   my sil has a friend who went to another state and worked in their DMV.  she had a high failure rate among the first time drivers taking their practical drivers test because she actually enforced the test standards about how they actually drove on the roads.

and public transit just isnt' workable in all areas, even when it exists.  even in my city - you can't get from point a to point b with the existing system, and there are too few people trying to get from point a - to point b, they want to go to point c - and that's where the routes run.

when 1dd was in middle school, they did a public transit spiel.  they spent three MONTHS on it.  at the end, they had the students go to all these places via public transit to "see how great it was".  what it taught the students - was how you can't get there on public transit so you'd better plan on driving. (they never did it again.)

1dd is now working in a location that SHOULD have good transit access.  she lives near a good hub for transit.  for her to take public transit to her job, would require walking a mile through a sketchy area in the dark on the CITY end of it.  but if she were to work late (happens often enough), the buses wouldn't even be running and she'd be stuck.  she drives, because the public transit system is lousy.

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10 minutes ago, frogger said:

Do you mean the older generations who complain because kids get their licence later, drink less, have sex later etc?  My kids are crazy responsible compared to their grandparents at the same age. Ha

Exactly. As someone who was regularly criticized by other parents for giving my son too much freedom and responsibility (although at the same time he was being recognized by other adults for his maturity and given very adult responsibilities by them), I’m frequently  puzzled by what actions some people view as infantalizing teens. Driver license at 18? Self-funded gap year doing challenging work in a completely new environment instead of going directly to college?

Edited to add that when it comes to comparing across generations when kids get their driver’s license, we have to keep in mind that today a significantly higher percentage of the US population lives urban as opposed to rural.

Edited by Frances
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Quote

and public transit just isnt' workable in all areas, even when it exists.  even in my city - you can't get from point a to point b with the existing system, and there are too few people trying to get from point a - to point b, they want to go to point c - and that's where the routes run.

 

That doesn't mean that public transportation "just isn't workable", it means that your city has not set it up properly, funded it properly, run enough routes at enough times to the right places.

Edited by Tanaqui
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Haven't read any replies. We have a similar law for new drivers: only one passenger unless driving immediate family. It makes sense in reducing crashes for that demographic, but living rurally it makes carpooling for post-secondary education a really big hassle. It is not economical or environmentally sound.

That said, we always encourage our kids to follow the law for their own sake. They need to be able to drive, and can't afford fines or licence suspension.

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1 hour ago, Farrar said:

What he did was bad enough to take the keys away or knock him back to learner's permit privileges or something for awhile.

 

I agree with this.  

The reason I brought up other possibilities is because I see what “driving around” with a group of friends often seems to lead to in our area- and I know that the “drifting” thing is big now.  I get that maybe no kid in your @Farrararea would ever do that.  But I don’t know if your area is similar to @cavecanem’s . 

This sort of teen wild driving may be invisible to people who don’t see it.  Which might include @cave canem .  And the teens I have met who do it don’t have the executive function to even seem to understand that there’s a risk.  

In any case, even if not drifting or racing, teens driving “around,” in my own observation are rarely ones carefully driving and carefully following all laws other than the excess  under legal age passenger ones.  

I think it is probably better to face possibly incorrect ideas of what her teen could do (as driver or as passenger with other teen driver) by reading it here, rather than potentially from a knock on door of a policeman with very tragic news.

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

 

My complaint is that several people above are saying that a teen going just a few miles over is just as bad as breaking this law. I strongly disagree. And I think when we act like all laws are equally bad, that can lead kids to not think any of them that they don't want to follow are all that important.

 

I understand what you are saying.  I might more likely equate it to jay walking where I am.  

 Where you are the speed limits may be excessively low as compared to what can be done safely.   And possibly no one, not even LEO follow them—which is the case with jay walking in my rural area.  Pretty much no one, including sheriff deputy family, walks a mile or even half mile to intersection to cross street and then walks a mile back in order to go visit a friend directly across the street. 

In some places speed limits actually do relate to safety. 

And I think there is research that teens breaking speed limit laws tend to go up and up as they gain confidence.   

The driving “around” with all ones friends loaded into vehicle to me indicates that vehicles are being used as a recreation.

Not that there aren’t plenty of accidents when going somewhere specific rather than driving “around.” 

And the boy is known to have been deceiving the parent.

The boy seems not to have good judgment .  He thinks law is  “unreasonable “  because it isn’t followed by his peers.  He seems either not to have had driver’s education, or if he did, to not have understood that the reason for the law he is breaking is safety.  He also presumably does not understand that following the speed laws is generally a safety issue. 

I don’t think he is necessarily suspect for anything beyond what he is known to be doing.  But if the parent doesn’t take the keys and possibly get the license revoked until he’s more mature, and I think perhaps ideally to require him to redo driver’s ed either formally or informally , I think a whole host of other bad driving behavior is quite likely.

And even if not, the presumed speed breaking plus illegal passengers is already bad.  Plenty enough to revoke his solo driving rights.  But I am not sure cave Canem understands this to be so.  I think she regards it as possibly trivial like you regard a little speeding orvillegal u-turns.  Thus pointing out some other things that may also happen doesn’t seem wrong to me. 

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I am fine with the rule that you have to be 18 to drive an unrelated teen anywhere.  I can think of very few situations where this would be a problem.

On the other hand, I can see many reasons why it would be impractical for age 16+ to not be allowed to drive alone or with siblings.

I went to university at age 16.  I commuted in a rural area - not driving was not an option.  I drove with my brother (18yo licensed driver and fellow student) until I got my license.  After I got my license (age 17), I had multiple student teaching gigs and paid jobs to which I had to drive.  My brother had his own life and eventually left to join the Air Force.  My parents both worked in locations too remote to justify their driving me to college regularly.

My kids will both start college at age 17, and I assume they will be commuters, though probably not to the same university.  Before that, they are likely to attend high school about 20 miles away and participate in extracurriculars.  I look forward to their being able to drive themselves to / from activities and high school jobs and later college, as soon as they are legally and developmentally ready.

Do kids make mistakes, yes, but usually they are minor learning experiences.  I made my share of them, before and after age 18.  I will obviously do my best to minimize these mistakes as I teach my kids how to drive.  As a parent I think I can tell if my 16yo or 17yo is ready for the responsibility.

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Last year there was a teen driver and 2 or 3 of her teen friends killed in a wreck, it was devastating for the community. I can't remember the exact law about teen drivers as my son is just 14.5 but I expect him to follow them, that is the price of driving and there is good reason.

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41 minutes ago, Frances said:

I wasn’t making a sweeping generalization. I was simply sharing my antecdotal experience in my small corner of the world. I think kids can be responsible,mature, and not infantilized whether they get a license at 16, 18, or older and whether they buy their own car or the parent’s purchase one and whether they always or never walk,bike, or take public transportation.

Your initial statement read to me like a sarcastic comment along the lines of, "There's all this evidence that waiting until 18 is best,  and yet still these people call that infantilizing." That sounds like a sweeping generalization in the opposite direction to me. 

Perhaps I misinterpreted that, and if so, I apologize.

As I said, I wouldn't call it "infantilizing" per se to make teens wait until 18 to drive, but there are many areas where that kind of law is a serious restriction on their independence, the likes of which your solutions of walking, biking, and public transportation just won't fix. Which I suspect was what "those people" were getting at when they said it was infantilizing. 

My point is that there is not a one-size-fits-all solution. As a parent in an area where alternate modes of transportation simply don't exist, I have to weigh my children's need for safety and their need for independence carefully and make the best choice I can.

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8 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 Wow, I didn’t know that about NYC right in red being illegal unless stated. In this part of NY, it’s legal unless there’s a sign. I definitely need to ask my son if he’s aware, he drives thru the city every few weeks to visit his girlfriend. 

 

Yes, I believe NYC is the lone hold out in the US against right on red.

Quote

Pretty much no one, including sheriff deputy family, walks a mile or even half mile to intersection to cross street and then walks a mile back in order to go visit a friend directly across the street. 

 

Have you checked the actual traffic laws? They tend to repeat themselves from place to place, so there's a very good shot that unless the spot they're crossing is in between two traffic lights - without a single marked or unmarked intersection before one or the other light! - that it's completely legal to cross right there so long as you're not recklessly running into moving traffic. I had reason to look this up some time ago and filed it away under "bs made up rules that aren't actually laws". There are a lot of those, actually!

Edited by Tanaqui
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28 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

That doesn't mean that public transportation "just isn't workable", it means that your city has not set it up properly, funded it properly, run enough routes at enough times to the right places.

for public transit to work - it requires specific density, when it's spread out - it is much harder.  running buses requires money - for the buses, and the trained drivers.  those are fixed costs.  to make buses worhtwhile - you have to make it so people can get where they need to go - and no everyone is going the same way at the same time.   the big city still thinks their downtown in the center of the universe - never mind more people work in other areas and don't even go through it.  that's where the routes go.  ridership in our area is actually going DOWN.  

to exacerbate things - our politicians are obsessed with the train and tolls.  my son - who thought the train would be a great thing to get him from school to the airport - found out it wasn't and took an uber.

one thing I really wish government would learn to do is live within their means like the rest of us have to do.  when they want something - they just raise taxes. (and yes, there is deceit on their part involved. I will not go further. I will not...)

 

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I agree with this.  

The reason I brought up other possibilities is because I see what “driving around” with a group of friends often seems to lead to in our area- and I know that the “drifting” thing is big now.  I get that maybe no kid in your @Farrararea would ever do that.  But I don’t know if your area is similar to @cavecanem’s . 

This sort of teen wild driving may be invisible to people who don’t see it.  Which might include @cave canem .  And the teens I have met who do it don’t have the executive function to even seem to understand that there’s a risk.  and that is one reason they do it - they are incapable of assessing the risk.

In any case, even if not drifting or racing, teens driving “around,” in my own observation are rarely ones carefully driving and carefully following all laws other than the excess  under legal age passenger ones.  

I think it is probably better to face possibly incorrect ideas of what her teen could do (as driver or as passenger with other teen driver) by reading it here, rather than potentially from a knock on door of a policeman with very tragic news.

 

 

 

In some places speed limits actually do relate to safety. there are some hilly roads her, the flashing warning signs about speed are there for a reason.  it wasn't that long ago a girl ran off the road and down the hill, and it was days before she was found. even though that hilly road gets a lot of traffic. fortunately, she was still alive when found.

And I think there is research that teens breaking speed limit laws tend to go up and up as they gain confidence.   - the number of wrecks on dry pavement and straight road...

The driving “around” with all ones friends loaded into vehicle to me indicates that vehicles are being used as a recreation. - and they're more likely to do dumb things

Not that there aren’t plenty of accidents when going somewhere specific rather than driving “around.” 

And the boy is known to have been deceiving the parent.

The boy seems not to have good judgment .  He thinks law is  “unreasonable “  because it isn’t followed by his peers.  He seems either not to have had driver’s education, or if he did, to not have understood that the reason for the law he is breaking is safety.  He also presumably does not understand that following the speed laws is generally a safety issue. 

I don’t think he is necessarily suspect for anything beyond what he is known to be doing.  But if the parent doesn’t take the keys and possibly get the license revoked until he’s more mature, and I think perhaps ideally to require him to redo driver’s ed either formally or informally , I think a whole host of other bad driving behavior is quite likely.

And even if not, the presumed speed breaking plus illegal passengers is already bad.  Plenty enough to revoke his solo driving rights.  But I am not sure cave Canem understands this to be so.  I think she regards it as possibly trivial like you regard a little speeding orvillegal u-turns.  Thus pointing out some other things that may also happen doesn’t seem wrong to me. 

this.

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36 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Your initial statement read to me like a sarcastic comment along the lines of, "There's all this evidence that waiting until 18 is best,  and yet still these people call that infantilizing." That sounds like a sweeping generalization in the opposite direction to me. 

Perhaps I misinterpreted that, and if so, I apologize.

As I said, I wouldn't call it "infantilizing" per se to make teens wait until 18 to drive, but there are many areas where that kind of law is a serious restriction on their independence, the likes of which your solutions of walking, biking, and public transportation just won't fix. Which I suspect was what "those people" were getting at when they said it was infantilizing. 

My point is that there is not a one-size-fits-all solution. As a parent in an area where alternate modes of transportation simply don't exist, I have to weigh my children's need for safety and their need for independence carefully and make the best choice I can.

I completely agree one size doesn’t fit all. But in other threads I don’t think people were saying it would be infantalizing if the law were changed to make people wait until 18 for a license. They are saying that the fact that more teens are waiting and parents are letting them wait is one of many examples of  infantalizing teens. That sweeping generalization is what I disagree with. I think there are valid reasons teens are waiting and in general, it says nothing about their maturity, responsibility, or independence level. Just as I don’t believe getting a license at 16 says anything in general about those things.

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3 hours ago, Frances said:

I was agreeing with the countries that make teen wait until they are 18 to drive alone. I was also referring to comments on other threads where some posters think teens who wait until they are 18 to get a driver’s license are being infantilized. You don’t need a driver’s license to drive under adult supervision, only to drive alone. Every teen I’ve known who has waited did it for two primary reasons. First, they think it is better for the environment to walk, bike, or use public transportation. And second, they think it is a grave responsibility that should not be taken lightly. They are not being transported everywhere by parents and they are regularly practicing driving.

Edited to add that in fact, all of the teens (now young adults) I know who waited until 18 for a driver’s license were the same kids who were getting themselves to most of their activities by walking, biking, or using public transportation by the time they were teens. It was primarily the ones who were being driven everywhere by parents who got their license at 16.

Ah, I see your point. And I completely buy that the teens you're familiar with who waited until 18 for a driver’s license were the same kids who were getting themselves to most of their activities by walking, biking, or using public transportation by the time they were teens. But where I live, public transp is simply non-existent; we don't have Uber or Lyft either. We do have a taxi service in town, but it's famous for being late and unreliable if you call one. Things here are so spread out, it truly isn't feasible to walk or bike. So, yeah, lots of kids here get their licenses at 16 simply because their parents can't or won't drive them anymore. But I've only got one kid, so I recognize it's easier for us to keep driving alongside him.

FWIW, I am aware that one doesn't need a license to drive supervised, only a permit. DS got his license at 16, instead of just remaining on a permit, to start the clock on "length of time licensed to drive" for insurance purposes, even though he still drives as though he's on a permit, i.e., with adult supervision, but he's driving all the time, everyday.

I also don't buy the notion that kids must pay for their own cars in order to be responsible with them. DS did not pay 100% for his own wheels. From a young age, we told him we'd match what he saved toward his first car. He paid for 1/3 of it from years of birthday, Christmas, and odd job money. And we paid the other 2/3. We did this because both DH and I had the experience of owning first cars that were COMPLETELY unsafe. Our parents insisted we had to pay for our own and I can't believe the unreliable, unsafe clunkers they allowed us to drive. Safety features have changed a lot, especially since the 2012 model year. Of course it depends on the kid how well they take care of their car, no matter who paid for it, so to each their own, but for us it was important to get him in a car with modern safety features versus what he could have paid for on his own.

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Been there done that with 4 teen drivers. 

If i lived super-rural with no one on the roads?  Maybe. But we are urban/suburban and my teens followed the laws or didn’t drive. Including the No Untelated Teens in the Car law.   Distraction is a dangerous thing. 

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41 minutes ago, TarynB said:

Ah, I see your point. And I completely buy that the teens you're familiar with who waited until 18 for a driver’s license were the same kids who were getting themselves to most of their activities by walking, biking, or using public transportation by the time they were teens. But where I live, public transp is simply non-existent; we don't have Uber or Lyft either. We do have a taxi service in town, but it's famous for being late and unreliable if you call one. Things here are so spread out, it truly isn't feasible to walk or bike. So, yeah, lots of kids here get their licenses at 16 simply because their parents can't or won't drive them anymore. But I've only got one kid, so I recognize it's easier for us to keep driving alongside him.

FWIW, I am aware that one doesn't need a license to drive supervised, only a permit. DS got his license at 16, instead of just remaining on a permit, to start the clock on "length of time licensed to drive" for insurance purposes, even though he still drives as though he's on a permit, i.e., with adult supervision, but he's driving all the time, everyday.

I also don't buy the notion that kids must pay for their own cars in order to be responsible with them. DS did not pay 100% for his own wheels. From a young age, we told him we'd match what he saved toward his first car. He paid for 1/3 of it from years of birthday, Christmas, and odd job money. And we paid the other 2/3. We did this because both DH and I had the experience of owning first cars that were COMPLETELY unsafe. Our parents insisted we had to pay for our own and I can't believe the unreliable, unsafe clunkers they allowed us to drive. Safety features have changed a lot, especially since the 2012 model year. Of course it depends on the kid how well they take care of their car, no matter who paid for it, so to each their own, but for us it was important to get him in a car with modern safety features versus what he could have paid for on his own.

I also don’t think kids need to pay for their own cars to be responsible for them. I think irresponsible kids buy cars and irresponsible kids are given cars, just like responsible kids. 

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Of course teen drivers should abide by that law. All other laws as well, for that matter. There is a reason they are dependent and why we are responsible for them. Their decision making abilities are really bad in comparison to ours.

I highly recommend the BRAKES driving course - it’s inexpensive and has a great curriculum with hands on defensive driving practice. They do them all over the country, and they are worth traveling for. One of the things they talk about right from the get go is the fact that the courses were started by a professional driver after his two sons died in a car accident because the driver was breaking the law by speeding.  I also have a friend who lost a teen son and does a talk on how to prevent hydroplaning by following the law (don’t speed) and using common sense while driving. The pictures of her sons car after it’s enounter with an 18 wheeler are sobering, but not as sobering as his tombstone. 

Laws, yes, follow them. It isn’t a choice. 

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5 hours ago, Frances said:

Yet some people on this board think we are infantilizing teens when they choose to wait until 18 to get a driver’s license and instead walk, bike, or use public transportation.

I’ve seen this some places, but I’ve also seen the mindset that our family ascribes to - maturity is a better indicator or readiness than age. This is true for driving and for anything, really. 

Walking, biking and public transportation build great decision making skills - it would seem to me that those who use those avenues at younger ages will be better drivers if/when they do learn to drive at an older age. A

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It's also true where we are in Europe that most under 18s don't work except at a very few student jobs. More work at student jobs when university age but there are strict limits on the number of hours allowed. Grocery store clerks and other jobs normally held as younger teens as first jobs in the US are reserved for working adults here. They do have access to public transport in most cases or ride their bikes. They are expected to be more independent from a young age even if getting places takes an hour instead of 20 minutes by car. Parents still do a lot of driving, which I speak from experience here, to get the kids to their sports in the evening and weekends. Sometimes I wish they had more opportunities to work and drive like I did from 16, but overall they seem to have a lot of independent skills in other areas. My oldest is 19 and still showing no interest in getting a license. She's been too busy with her first year at university. I might have to push her a bit more. I just realized that they have a different license to be allowed to drive stick-shift. If you take your test in an automatic, your license only allows you to drive automatic, even though most cars here are still manual. BTW, drinking age is 16. 

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9 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

 

voting age used to be 21 - but 18 year olds were being drafted for Vietnam. people were protesting they couldn't even vote - but they could go to war.  (this isn't a judgment - this is a fact.)

I just wanted to add - in the early 80's the drinking age here was 18, and I remember the complaints from young people about the push to raise the drinking age to 21.

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6 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Yes, I believe NYC is the lone hold out in the US against right on red.

 

Have you checked the actual traffic laws? They tend to repeat themselves from place to place, so there's a very good shot that unless the spot they're crossing is in between two traffic lights - without a single marked or unmarked intersection before one or the other light! - that it's completely legal to cross right there so long as you're not recklessly running into moving traffic. I had reason to look this up some time ago and filed it away under "bs made up rules that aren't actually laws". There are a lot of those, actually!

 

Thanks!  I spent time in Santa Monica, CA where one was apt to be ticketed if toes went an inch off curb before the walk signal.  

I looked it up and...learned... Oregon doesn’t have anti-jaywalking rules.  We are outside city limits.  So long as traffic isn’t interfered with we’re both safe and legal.  Nice to know.  

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36 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I just wanted to add - in the early 80's the drinking age here was 18, and I remember the complaints from young people about the push to raise the drinking age to 21.

Yep. And changing the law didn't change the fact that many kids drink and typically under more irresponsible conditions. 

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9 hours ago, arctic_bunny said:

Absolutely. They can see when we’re speeding a bit; they know we’re okay with the consequences (a ticket - much different consequences for a new driver). They also see us *not* driving after even one drink, and *not* texting and driving, because killing someone is not a consequence we are okay with.

 

Although I would reccomend NOT speeding through town and residential districts. There is too much going on and I get so ticked at people going over the speed limit in these places. I can kind of relate to doing so on the highway.

This isn't aimed at you.

Also not stopping completely is a huge problem where I live. Then when they hit someone they say, "they came out of nowhere." No, they actual didn't have some portal that transported from a different time or space and drop them instantly in front of your car as you were pushing the gas pedal.   Stop completely. Look both ways including sidewalks and streets across from you. Arghhh. I see adults doing this garbage all the time. They model it for their children.

 

I really really would love it to be so much harder to get and maintain a licence. I don't think you should be able to register a car without a license which would make it easier to discover those driving without one. I also think if you are caught driving without one the car is impounded. That would slow down people who just ignore the law. People who want to loan their car to someone might think twice if they thought they could lose it. 

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15 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Although I would reccomend NOT speeding through town and residential districts. There is too much going on and I get so ticked at people going over the speed limit in these places. I can kind of relate to doing so on the highway.

This isn't aimed at you.

Also not stopping completely is a huge problem where I live. Then when they hit someone they say, "they came out of nowhere." No, they actual didn't have some portal that transported from a different time or space and drop them instantly in front of your car as you were pushing the gas pedal.   Stop completely. Look both ways including sidewalks and streets across from you. Arghhh. I see adults doing this garbage all the time. They model it for their children.

 

I really really would love it to be so much harder to get and maintain a licence. I don't think you should be able to register a car without a license which would make it easier to discover those driving without one. I also think if you are caught driving without one the car is impounded. That would slow down people who just ignore the law. People who want to loan their car to someone might think twice if they thought they could lose it. 

or speeding through parking lots.  I've encountered teens who race to cut someone off to get a parking spot.  they're accidents just waiting to happen.

they've done the impound the car if you drive without a license here,  and then activists whine because the person can't get to their job yadda yadda. so they get to keep the car.

 

27 minutes ago, frogger said:

Yep. And changing the law didn't change the fact that many kids drink and typically under more irresponsible conditions. 

even as a young adult - i fully supported raising the age because even though many kids will still have access, not all kids will have access so the rates of teen drinking and driving did go down.  our law enforcement agencies will periodically do very aggressive programs to catch clerks who will sell to minors.  even though it's the clerk that is busted, the owner is also part of it and they will come down hard on their own on clerks who sell to underage because it affects their business.  all stores that sell liquor have big signs at checkout stating "we card every one born after  __" -  they will card anyone that looks under 30.  goes for cigarettes too.

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I've encountered teens who race to cut someone off to get a parking spot.  they're accidents just waiting to happen.

 

 

I've honestly encountered way more adults that have these behaivors. Middle aged mom thinking she can multi task talking on her phone racing through the parking lot getting little Johnny to soccer practice because that is certainly worth endangering people's lives. Middle aged men and women seem to be the worst though I've had issues with teens too.  They think because they are "experienced" drivers they can do anything. Although, there are simply more middle aged drivers then teen drivers since that age span covers 20-30 years. 

 

It drives me insane when people complain they can't get to their job. Neither can the guy you just ran over or a heck of a lot of people with disabilities or people who quite simply can't afford a car.  Society doesn't seem to care about them.

I guess that's why many safety advocates want to move towards barricades, round a bouts, and different kinds of curbs to slow traffic in places with pedestrians. You can't fix stupid I guess. You have to put actual physical barriers in. Which would be fine by me if you had gasoline taxes pay for it since it's to control drivers.

Edited by frogger
Sorry for the rant. Stepping off my soapbox.
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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

or speeding through parking lots.  I've encountered teens who race to cut someone off to get a parking spot.  they're accidents just waiting to happen.

 

I’ve tended to see them racing to left turn across traffic in advance of opposite direction traffic.  especially if teen is running late for classes I see this near entrances to high schools. 

Trouble is laden log and other large trucks trucks have a lot of inertia and can’t slow easily.  Their drivers may also not have the restraint that a middle age mom may have to step on brakes to let the teen go by safely.  Meanwhile teen who has been used to adults giving him room for a cut across traffic like that start thinking that that’s the right way to drive.  Even if log truck is going at a proper slow speed for school zone, if teen cuts in front and gets t-boned the smaller vehicle tends to be the one most damaged .  And anyone in passenger seat tends to be most injured.  Which is another good reason for teens not to give rides to someone who won’t have the executive function to tell them to wait, that a tardy is better than a total.

 

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30 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

I've honestly encountered way more adults that have these behaivors. Middle aged mom thinking she can multi task talking on her phone racing through the parking lot getting little Johnny to soccer practice because that is certainly worth endangering people's lives. Middle aged men and women seem to be the worst though I've had issues with teens too.  They think because they are "experienced" drivers they can do anything.

 

It drives me insane when people complain they can't get to their job. Boo-hoo. Neither can the guy you just ran over or a heck of a lot of people with disabilities or people who quite simply can't afford a car.  Sounds like a personal problem.  Something that should have been thought of before you lost your license.

I guess that's why many safety advocates want to move towards barricades, round a bouts, and different kinds of curbs to slow traffic in places with pedestrians. You can't fix stupid I guess. You have to put actual physical barriers in. Which would be fine by me if you had gasoline taxes pay for it since it's to control drivers.

it was the speed they were driving.  while I've seen plenty of adults be jerks in parking lots, I've never seen one that raced that fast to grab a parking spot while cutting off a car to do it. let alone in a parking garage where the only thing between them and a two-story drop is a concrete wall.  not a good place to do a brake check.

 the vast majority of round-abouts I've encountered aren't about safety - but moving traffic more efficiently. (they're not in pedestrian areas)  you don't have cars lined up for lights or stop signs they keep moving - it really does move faster.  but I have encountered adults who won't bother to stop at stop signs.  I gleefully blocked a driveway from entering cars one day so the pedestrians could actually cross.  

here, they put in speed bumps.    last spring, some guy came racing through the school drive before the parents lined up -  and hit a pedestrian. (I got there early, and just after it happened - before most EMT's arrived,  and before the leos closed school access.) -  over the summer, they installed very nasty speed bumps on the drive and in the parking lots.

our district is adding cameras to buses.  they only did 25% of their fleet - and in ONE MONTH caught 147 people illegally pass the buses when their stop signs were out.  nice hefty ticket too.  I have zero sympathy for those ticketed, no one forced them to illegally pass the bus.

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My DD just turned 16 a week ago and I've been teaching her to drive.  I absolutely expect her to follow all the laws.  Also, I really think it's dangerous to have a bunch of teens in the car.  They can get distracted and laughing etc...  Even if it wasn't the law, we would not allow our teens to drive around with others until we felt ready.

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Sadly, the city is reluctant to install speed bumps, in other words refuses, because it makes plowing difficult. Which is understandable.

 

I wasn't thinking of the big round-a-bouts used to replace stop lights. I was thinking of the little circles (sometimes not even at intersections) that makes a car kind of swerve around them. 

 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

I’ve tended to see them racing to left turn across traffic in advance of opposite direction traffic.  especially if teen is running late for classes I see this near entrances to high schools. 

Trouble is laden log and other large trucks trucks have a lot of inertia and can’t slow easily.  Their drivers may also not have the restraint that a middle age mom may have to step on brakes to let the teen go by safely.  Meanwhile teen who has been used to adults giving him room for a cut across traffic like that start thinking that that’s the right way to drive.  Even if log truck is going at a proper slow speed for school zone, if teen cuts in front and gets t-boned the smaller vehicle tends to be the one most damaged .  And anyone in passenger seat tends to be most injured.  Which is another good reason for teens not to give rides to someone who won’t have the executive function to tell them to wait, that a tardy is better than a total.

 

I was on the front row (waiting at a red light) for someone who did that.  she wasn't even in the left turn lane when she went across traffic to turn left racing to beat the oncoming car.  she didn't beat it...  he t--boned her, spun around, and hit me head on.

dh has a favorite trick with logging trucks... if there is a safe passing area, - HE will go into the oncoming lane so the logging trucks can go past without having to change lanes - the ability of which is affected by their weight.   no fun to have a logging truck on your tail.

31 minutes ago, frogger said:

Sadly, the city is reluctant to install speed bumps, in other words refuses, because it makes plowing difficult. Which is understandable.

 

I wasn't thinking of the big round-a-bouts used to replace stop lights. I was thinking of the little circles (sometimes not even at intersections) that makes a car kind of swerve around them. 

 

the plows plow them up.  I was on at a business on an alley/side road and saw piece of speed bumps in the pile of snow.

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On 3/16/2019 at 11:37 AM, cave canem said:

My minor teen recently got his driver's license and bought a car.  We discussed the expectations around the car beforehand.  A condition of having the car was that he had to follow our state laws for minor drivers.  In particular we pointed out that law does not allow him to have passengers under age 18 outside of the family.  He agreed to follow that law.

He has had the car a short time and has been deceiving us about following that law.  He says it is unreasonable because a lot of teens load all of their friends into the car and drive around.

If you have a similar law in your state, do you expect your teen driver to cooperate with it?

 

My family did enforce this law in our home with two teen drivers, but we noticed that there were a few families who didn't mind that their new driver was driving others before it was allowed.  We put it to our kids this way: 1) it's a law and we obey the law, 2) you will lose your license until you're 18 if you're caught.. is that even worth it?

 

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Neither one of our daughters got their drivers license until they were 18. Oldest daughter thought dad was too strict in his driving lessons and said she didn’t want to drive with him. She was in for a surprise when I said I wasn’t going to do it. She pouted for awhile but eventually saw the light🙄 She wasn’t allowed to have passengers in the car for the first year. As far as we know, she followed that rule. She never was allowed to drive her younger sister until after younger sister graduated from high school. Youngest daughter didn’t have the confidence we thought she needed and she wasn’t that interested. When she was a senior in highschool, and 18, she finally showed an interest. Unfortunately, DH was on an overseas tour and I was the driving instructor. The seniors had off campus lunch once a month. The last two months of school, she was allowed to take two other students. We didn’t allow either one of our kids to drive with other friends while in high school. It wasn’t always convenient but living near high schools and seeing so much reckless driving, helped formed my opinion. I also found that insurance is cheaper when they are older and they  may have seen their friends make some stupid mistakes. Personally, I have no problem with raising the age to obtain a license to 18. Of course, I respect that families make different decisions🌺

Our daughters never had their own car. They were expected to follow all the rules of the road. I never would have hesitated to pull their driving privileges if I knew they weren’t.

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On 3/16/2019 at 2:25 PM, Catwoman said:

Cave canem — please don’t think we are picking on you or that we think your son is a terrible, reckless driver! He might be an excellent driver and he might always drive safely when he has friends in the car... but when lives are on the line, safety matters and following the law is important, so I think the big concerns here are his lack of respect for the law and the fact that he has deceived you about what he has been doing — as well as his blasé attitude about the whole thing.

Are you sure he is mature enough to be driving without a parent in the car with him? 

 

Agreed. I was fairly mature as a new driver. But the scariest moment driving was when I had the entire youth group in the car (My sister and three other girls) and ended up driving up the off ramp to the freeway (At the time BCS still had two way feeder roads on Highway 6).  We discovered it before we got ON the freeway and I got back on the feeder road. But I absolutely believe having other people in the car contributed to the mistake in the first place and it was only by the grace of God we did not end up in a accident.

 

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On 3/16/2019 at 3:11 PM, Catwoman said:

 

I’m not sure what you’re hoping we will say here. It seems like everyone is in complete agreement that your son should be obeying the law about the passengers in his car. You said he agreed to obey that law, but then deceived you and made a lame excuse when he was caught.

Personally, if my kid lied to me about that, he would be losing his driving privileges. This is not a minor little thing.

And if you are pretty sure he’s driving over the speed limit, perhaps you should equip the car so that you can monitor how fast he is driving. I hope I’m wrong about this, but I have to say that if he is driving around with a bunch of his friends in the car, he may be driving a lot faster and more recklessly than you think.

I had no expectation for the direction of this discussion, although I am thankful for the supportive comments.  I made a straightforward query because I wanted to know what other people thought.  I have not found parents of students in our high school to be concerned about these laws.  Our neighbors let their kids have cars before the kids were licensed.  

I thought my position about his having to obey the law was clear in the OP.  I didn't think I needed to elaborate on how terrible deceit is or how obnoxious entitlement.  If emojis were my style, I would have added a broken heart emoji, a crying emoji, a wrath of God emoji, and animated head hitting brick wall, but I did not think these were necessary to convey my intent. 

I wrote that I am sure he is not always under the speed limit because I thought every driver creeps over the limit at some time.  My hat is off to those who have volunteered that you have never broken a traffic law.  We have made our 18+ drivers pull off and be replaced for going too fast (not necessarily over the limit), but the bare fact of exceeding the speed limit is not in the same league as lying or having illegal passengers.  I drove across a town line where the sped limit drops from 30 to 20.  I didn't realize at first and didn't reduce my speed for a while, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about speeding, and I don't think it was incumbent on me to give up my license over it

I don't think I wrote that he is driving with a bunch friends.  He offered the fact that other groups of teens cruise around as a defense for what he did. 

 

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On 3/16/2019 at 5:41 PM, MEmama said:

Without reading other replies, I'm not sure I understand the question. Following the law has nothing to do with having a car, it's the LAW for minor drivers. If he can't abide by the law, he should have his license revoked starting yesterday.

The thing I am finding bizarre about this conversation is that my question was about whether other parents require their teen to follow a certain law.  It is a really simple question. 

I didn't ask whether my son should have to or what his consequences should be.  I don't mind hearing opinions about that, but I don't see why it interferes with understanding the question I posed. 

I am rarely accused of being too chatty, but I am guessing that I gave too much background here and people assume I think it's all relevant to my final question.

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