teen drivers--should they have to follow this law?

[cave canem]

My minor teen recently got his driver's license and bought a car.  We discussed the expectations around the car beforehand.  A condition of having the car was that he had to follow our state laws for minor drivers.  In particular we pointed out that law does not allow him to have passengers under age 18 outside of the family.  He agreed to follow that law.

He has had the car a short time and has been deceiving us about following that law.  He says it is unreasonable because a lot of teens load all of their friends into the car and drive around.

If you have a similar law in your state, do you expect your teen driver to cooperate with it?

 

[Carol in Cal.]

Yes, it's the law.

And it's the law because new drivers, especially young ones, are more distracted by passengers than others.  

Even if that wasn't so, he should follow the law because it's the law, and because you said so.

[EmseB]

I would, especially if they are on the family insurance and could get ticketed and put my rates sky high.

[J-rap]

Of course I would enforce it.  I can't imagine one reason why I wouldn't.

[cave canem]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

Even if that wasn't so, he should follow the law because it's the law, and because you said so.

Ha!  You are obviously living in the Dark Ages and are unaware of the moral superiority of someone who doesn't do things just because a parent says so.

[teachermom2834]

Our law is that a minor drive can have only one passenger unrelated to the family. I believe I can write a note if he is transporting siblings.

I absolutely expect my kids to comply.

(Honestly my newest driver does not have parental permission yet to have even one passenger. He is a decent driver but has gotten distracted mid conversation with me. The last thing he needs is another teenager sending his driving out on an Instagram story or something)

 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, cave canem said:

He has had the car a short time and has been deceiving us about following that law. 

So you took away the keys, right? 

The reason for the law is the data on teen accidents. We had a mom around here lose a REALLY BELOVED CHILD due to this. Not as if you don't love all your children, but this was just a horrible, tragic loss. My own dd did her first totalling over her car when she violated this. He's an ABSOLUTE IDIOT if he's violating the law, and I hope for his own safety he gets nailed.

Edited March 16, 2019 by PeterPan

[scholastica]

Absolutely. The law is there for a reason. Teens with their friends in the car get distracted really easily. We would probably take the keys for a time, even if it is his car.  A kid that age can only buy his own car because you subsidize a good bit of the rest of his expenses. Still your house.

[brehon]

Yes, I do. Having friends in the car is one of the variables that leads to wrecks. Using cell phones is probably the other big variable. 

If my teen lied to me about following the law or anything else driving related, the wrath of God would descend and that teen wouldn’t drive for a long time. 

— signed someone who has pulled a number of dead teens from wrecks over the years. 

[brehon]

3 minutes ago, cave canem said:

Ha!  You are obviously living in the Dark Ages and are unaware of the moral superiority of someone who doesn't do things just because a parent says so.

 

Yup...and an attitude like that, regardless of whether or not said teen followed the law, would also ground the teen driver. That attitude shows me the teen is not ready to accept the heavy responsibility that comes with driving. 

Driving a car is not a right and it requires drivers to shoulder a high level of responsibility.

No responsibility = no driving privileges

Poor attitude = no driving privileges

[Wheres Toto]

Yes, we have that law and yes I absolutely made my oldest follow it when she was supposed to.

Although I will say we did not make her follow the law that said she had to have a red reflective sticker on her car.   She drove home from dance at night on a very dark, very long quiet stretch of road and there's no way I was advertising to every other car on the road that she was a young driver by herself.  

[J-rap]

16 minutes ago, cave canem said:

Ha!  You are obviously living in the Dark Ages and are unaware of the moral superiority of someone who doesn't do things just because a parent says so.

But there is a difference between a family rule and an actual law.

[cave canem]

3 minutes ago, J-rap said:

But there is a difference between a family rule and an actual law.

True, but there are actual laws that wouldn't be dealbreakers for using a car.  I am sure that he doesn't always stay under the speed limit.

[J-rap]

1 minute ago, cave canem said:

True, but there are actual laws that wouldn't be dealbreakers for using a car.  I am sure that he doesn't always stay under the speed limit.

Well, I guess you call your own shots as the parent, for sure.  We'd require our kids to drive within the speed limit too as a minor living with us.

[PeachyDoodle]

Disclaimer: I am about a year away from having a teen driver with a learner's permit.

That said, if I had reason to believe that my teen was breaking the law while behind the wheel, the car would be parked until further notice. And there would probably be other consequences too, depending on the severity of the offense. This includes any teen-specific laws, as well as general traffic laws, like (especially!) speed limits.

My parents got a 2am phone call from the highway patrol telling them their youngest child was dead. I got the 5am visit from my parents' pastor later that same morning. I will do everything in my power not to come close to reliving that experience with my own children.

ETA: I want to clarify that my sister was not driving, nor was the driver doing anything she shouldn't have been. Teens are teens, and my sister is still dead. These laws exist for a reason.

Edited March 16, 2019 by PeachyDoodle

[Catwoman]

8 minutes ago, cave canem said:

True, but there are actual laws that wouldn't be dealbreakers for using a car.  I am sure that he doesn't always stay under the speed limit.

 

I’m not sure what you’re hoping we will say here. It seems like everyone is in complete agreement that your son should be obeying the law about the passengers in his car. You said he agreed to obey that law, but then deceived you and made a lame excuse when he was caught.

Personally, if my kid lied to me about that, he would be losing his driving privileges. This is not a minor little thing.

And if you are pretty sure he’s driving over the speed limit, perhaps you should equip the car so that you can monitor how fast he is driving. I hope I’m wrong about this, but I have to say that if he is driving around with a bunch of his friends in the car, he may be driving a lot faster and more recklessly than you think. 

Both of these things are serious safety issues, not just to your son and his passengers, but to everyone else on the road with him.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Catwoman

[cave canem]

4 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Well, I guess you call your own shots as the parent, for sure.  We'd require our kids to drive within the speed limit too as a minor living with us.

How can that be managed? 

ETA: Oh, I see above.

Edited March 16, 2019 by cave canem

[gardenmom5]

the reason for that law is the fact teens having teen friends in the car with them are more likely to be in an accident.   that's why the law was implemented.

in our state - it's six months after they get their license that they are banned from any non-sibling minors in their car.

watch teen drivers outside the high school some time.  I drive past one at dismissal time on a regular basis.  some of them are pretty darn scary- and every single scary one had other teens in their car. (or were texting.)

 

eta: I'll add I've been through this with four (now all adults), and have another one approaching (who is not *anywhere* near ready to even have a permit.)

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by gardenmom5

[LuvToRead]

Yes!  And if I found out DD lied to me, she would no longer have access to her vehicle. We bought her vehicle, pay her insurance, and give her gas money.   To me, disobeying the law and lying to me are two separate issues.  

[PeterPan]

The problem is that some mistakes are permanent. Like if he wants to use his omniscience and discretion on hair style, how he wears his pants, etc., I'm all for it. But like I told my dd a lot, some mistakes are PERMANENT. 

They don't quite realize that at 16, which is why the laws exist.

[Moonhawk]

As a former teen, yes that law is so important. In a two year span our small town had 4 fatal car accidents with teen drivers and friends in the vehicle. My cousin was a passenger killed in a teen driving accident (the driver got a broken arm). I don't care how responsible and level headed a teen is, they are new drivers who are learning to filter and respond to all of the parts of driving. They don't need more going on in the car. And if something goes wrong -- even if it isn't their fault -- they do not need that burden for the rest of their life. 

[Catwoman]

35 minutes ago, cave canem said:

Ha!  You are obviously living in the Dark Ages and are unaware of the moral superiority of someone who doesn't do things just because a parent says so.

 

Well, he can keep his moral superiority... as long as he hands over the car keys and stops driving until he can obey the law.

[DoraBora]

Yes.  I expect my teen drivers to obey all traffic laws, including those specific to their age bracket.  Such laws make perfect sense to me.

[Catwoman]

Cave canem — please don’t think we are picking on you or that we think your son is a terrible, reckless driver! He might be an excellent driver and he might always drive safely when he has friends in the car... but when lives are on the line, safety matters and following the law is important, so I think the big concerns here are his lack of respect for the law and the fact that he has deceived you about what he has been doing — as well as his blasé attitude about the whole thing.

Are you sure he is mature enough to be driving without a parent in the car with him? 

[Tanaqui]

If he doesn't think the law is reasonable, tell him to take it up with city hall. As far as I'm concerned, adolescent driving is a privilege and not a right - and I would absolutely ban him from the car for breaking this law, and even longer if I thought he'd been speeding. (I would be thrilled to see strict enforcement of speeding laws.)

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, LuvToRead said:

Yes!  And if I found out DD lied to me, she would no longer have access to her vehicle. We bought her vehicle, pay her insurance, and give her gas money.   To me, disobeying the law and lying to me are two separate issues.  

even if the teen had a job, bought their own car, paid their share of the car insurance - and paid for their own gas and maintenance...  YOU are the one paying for their shelter, medical, food, clothing, etc.  if YOU were NOT paying for those things - they wouldn't be paying for their own car and incidentals.

you. are. the. parent.  your job, is to  help your teen learn about how to be an adult.  one of those, is how to be a good driver.  teenagers with other teenagers in the car with them, are seldom responsible.  even my nephew - who started as a fireman cadet at 18 - would seriously lecture his younger sister about her driving due to the number of wrecks he'd responded to with teenage drivers.

[AbcdeDooDah]

I do enforce it. My kids dont get to decide to put our house and  assets on the line. 

The line I've heard is that their friends parents would "never" sue if they were hurt while driving with another teen. BS.

Edited March 16, 2019 by AbcdeDooDah

[LuvToRead]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

even if the teen had a job, bought their own car, paid their share of the car insurance - and paid for their own gas and maintenance...  YOU are the one paying for their shelter, medical, food, clothing, etc.  if YOU were NOT paying for those things - they wouldn't be paying for their own car and incidentals.

you. are. the. parent.  your job, is to  help your teen learn about how to be an adult.  one of those, is how to be a good driver.  teenagers with other teenagers in the car with them, are seldom responsible.  even my nephew - who started as a fireman cadet at 18 - would seriously lecture his younger sister about her driving due to the number of wrecks he'd responded to with teenage drivers.

Oh, I totally agree!  

[Arctic Bunny]

I don’t know what to say.... of course I expect them to follow the law.

As for speeding, our novice drivers must remain incident free for 12 consecutive months in order to graduate to a regular license. For each incident, the consequences go up, with the next-to-last being 180-day suspension. Seems easier to just follow the rules, and come home safely.

[Pawz4me]

Yes, we expected our boys to follow all laws when they started driving.

[EKS]

Absolutely!  The reason those laws are in place is because teens tend to drive much more poorly when they have their friends in the car.

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Cave canem — please don’t think we are picking on you or that we think your son is a terrible, reckless driver! He might be an excellent driver and he might always drive safely when he has friends in the car... but when lives are on the line, safety matters and following the law is important, so I think the big concerns here are his lack of respect for the law and the fact that he has deceived you about what he has been doing — as well as his blasé attitude about the whole thing.

Are you sure he is mature enough to be driving without a parent in the car with him? 

cave canem - your son doesn't just disrespect the law.  the fact he has deceived you, indicates he disrespects your authority as his parent as well. 

 

while I dont' mean to attack you - I've been on the road with too many scary teen drivers (many were driving nice cars), and have personally had a few too many close calls due to reckless teen drivers.  If I had even had the merest whiff one of my kids was driving like that, they would have kissed their driving privileges goodbye.

 

[math teacher]

I agree with all the other posters ( I believe it's unanimous!!) that teens should absolutely follow the laws regarding their age.

[Catwoman]

13 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

cave canem - your son doesn't just disrespect the law.  the fact he has deceived you, indicates he disrespects your authority as his parent as well. 

 

while I dont' mean to attack you - I've been on the road with too many scary teen drivers (many were driving nice cars), and have personally had a few too many close calls due to reckless teen drivers.  If I had even had the merest whiff one of my kids was driving like that, they would have kissed their driving privileges goodbye.

 

 

His attitude is what is most worrisome.

If he doesn’t respect your rules or the law, the next thing he might be saying is, “I only had a few beers at the party before I drove home, and it’s no big deal because everyone else was drinking too.”

[Pen]

Yes!

My understanding in my state is if the minor driver breaks the law and that’s known to parent, the parent can contact DMV to have the minor’s license revoked until he reaches 18.  (And probably should because failure to do so likely puts some legal liability as well as ethical responsibility for anything that happens onto the adult, who, in a sense, was allowing the law to be broken.)  

Exactly how to handle this might depend on whether driving to job is needed, and whether you can believe the teen if he promises not to do it again.  If he insists he isn’t even wrong to do it, I would contact DMV to terminate the underage license.  

There are side of road crosses here and there in our area marking traffic crash fatalities, and most I know details about involved teen or young drivers.  

[Catwoman]

19 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

In CO we have that same law. My kids all followed it with one exception. In CO, the kids have to drive for 6 mo before they can have anyone other than family in the car--dd miscounted and gave a friend a ride home. The friend's mom had told me thank you and we had QUITE the talk with dd. She had goofed and was quite remorseful. A driver under 18 cannot have 3 people in the front, even if there are seatbelts for them. The rate of teen deaths has gone down SO much since they instituted those rules. 

 

That’s such an important distinction. Your dd was remorseful.

Everybody does stupid things sometimes. Cave canem’s son certainly isn’t the first kid to drive with his friends in the car. But when he got caught, he showed no remorse whatsoever, and cave canem probably can’t trust him not to deceive her again. That’s what worries me.

[sassenach]

2 hours ago, cave canem said:

My minor teen recently got his driver's license and bought a car.  We discussed the expectations around the car beforehand.  A condition of having the car was that he had to follow our state laws for minor drivers.  In particular we pointed out that law does not allow him to have passengers under age 18 outside of the family.  He agreed to follow that law.

He has had the car a short time and has been deceiving us about following that law.  He says it is unreasonable because a lot of teens load all of their friends into the car and drive around.

If you have a similar law in your state, do you expect your teen driver to cooperate with it?

 

 

We have a similar law in our state, and it's true, almost no parents hold their kids to it. We are the "strict" parents who do. Our son did get caught breaking the rule and taking friends out at lunch break. He was grounded from going out at lunch for several months after that but understood that was the consequence.

Had our son resisted this correction, we would have taken his keys for a few weeks.

Edited March 16, 2019 by sassenach

[Catwoman]

Just now, Pen said:

Yes!

My understanding in my state is if the minor driver breaks the law and that’s known to parent, the parent can contact DMV to have the minor’s license revoked until he reaches 18.  (And probably should because failure to do so likely puts some legal liability as well as ethical responsibility for anything that happens onto the adult, who, in a sense, was allowing the law to be broken.)  

Exactly how to handle this might depend on whether driving to job is needed, and whether you can believe the teen if he promises not to do it again.  If he insists he isn’t even wrong to do it, I would contact DMV to terminate the underage license.  

There are side of road crosses here and there in our area marking traffic crash fatalities, and most I know details about involved teen or young drivers.  

 

I don’t think I would want to have his license revoked because it might be difficult to get it reinstated when he is ready to start driving on his own again. I would, however, only allow him to drive when he had a parent in the car with him. I would want him to keep practicing his driving skills.

[Storygirl]

Yes, I require DD17 to follow the teen driving laws.

In our state, she is allowed to have one unrelated passenger with her. She had an accident a couple of months while having a friend in the car. We considered the friend to be a contributing factor to the crash (she drifted into the neighboring lane while turning a corner). So we took that privilege away from her. She is only allowed to drive when she is alone (although we did make an exception once when she had a friend who needed a ride, and she asked in advance).

So we will put more restrictions on than the state does.

If we were to find out she was driving friends secretly, she would not be allowed to drive for awhile.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Margaret in CO said:

Oh yes, without the remorse, dd would be walking to town again. She said, "No, Mom, I counted...whoops! I miscounted." She was shy three days. I was pleased with the response of a swim team mom. I had to tell her that dd got a ticket for her dd not wearing a seatbelt. The girl said she was buckled and my dd didn't check. They got pulled over. I wasn't wanting to rat the girl out, but wanted her mom to know. The mom came back over an hour later, with cash in hand to pay the fine--she took it out of H's hide! And I'm sure H never did it again. H came over and apologized, as she should have. 

 

I’m sure it was awkward to rat the girl out, but hopefully the embarrassment was enough to get that girl to buckle up whenever she gets into a car. I’m glad the mom appreciated it that you told her — it probably scared her to think that her dd was riding in cars without wearing her seatbelt!

 

[Tap]

Yes, we absolutely enforced it. DD almost got her license pulled for it by me. She did violate the rule and I caught her, but her dad unknowingly gave her permission, so I let it slide. She knew she was violating the law, but she also go her dad's permission first, so I didn't go  heavy on her about it. She was warned that the next violation would result in a full license revocation by me until she was 18yo. I have very few rules and consequences in my house, but my kids all know that when I put my foot down, it doesn't budge. LOL As far as I know she didn't violate it again. 

[Pen]

53 minutes ago, cave canem said:

True, but there are actual laws that wouldn't be dealbreakers for using a car.  I am sure that he doesn't always stay under the speed limit.

 

How much over speed limit is okay with you?

 It’s also very common for teens to have a joint or drink before they drive too.   How much do you know about what he does ? Where are you going to draw a line? 

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I don’t think I would want to have his license revoked because it might be difficult to get it reinstated when he is ready to start driving on his own again. I would, however, only allow him to drive when he had a parent in the car with him. I would want him to keep practicing his driving skills.

 

That may be true.   But I think going back to Learner Permit is probably possible .  

And it is not clear that cave Canem has enough influence or control within their home to achieve only driving with a parent in the car.  I expect a bright kid may even already have an extra set of keys copied. 

1 hour ago, cave canem said:

Ha!  You are obviously living in the Dark Ages and are unaware of the moral superiority of someone who doesn't do things just because a parent says so.

 

Perhaps removal of parental permission to drive at DMV level could be consequence of any further infraction of the law.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Of course I would have him obey the law. I don’t understand why this is even a question. 

[Scarlett]

Well I imagine it is a question because the teen is telling the mom ‘nobody obeys that law’.

yes mom we made our sons follow the law even when inconvenient and embarrassing .i remember one time ds had his car at a friends house in town. He had rode with his friends to the city and got back too late to drive himself home ( past 10).  Do I drive yo town and brought him home. I made him  phis car up the next day. 

It is really a short time and passes quickly. Hang tough

[Terabith]

I can imagine situations in which I wouldn’t require them to follow the law, but they all pretty much revolve around an apocalypse or major disaster.  Gunman is shooting up the church?  Squeeze the whole youth group in there and get out.  Zombie apocalypse?  Pile folks in and head for the safest location.  Dam broke and we are in Nebraska with life threatening flooding?  Take people to safety.  Government is rounding up all your Jewish or Hispanic friends to take them to concentration camps!  Hell yeah, drive them to emergency shelters.  Sally doesn’t have a ride?  Call me or Sally’s mother.  If it’s not an end of the world life or death scenario, follow the damned laws.  

[teachermom2834]

OP- it sounds like you have your hands full and for that I am sorry. Teens can be so trying.

But I encourage you to stand firm. This is a battle I would pick and if the other kids really are allowed to disregard the law I would probably be very skeptical of the entire peer and parent group. 🙁

It just is unlikely the disregard for authority is limited to this one law. 

[City Mouse]

My DS drives a small truck CC that only has room for one passenger, so we dont have to deal with that issue. 

I will have to be honest and admit that I don't always follow the speed limits and my DS knows, but we have had conversations about accepting the consequences of your actions. If I get a ticket, I expect to pay the fine. IF DS breaks a traffic law and gets a ticket, he will be paying his fines on his own. 

We have also talked about how driving becomes more automatic with experience. A new driver needs more focus on driving, and any distractions can cause problems. 

One concern that I would have with a teen driver who chooses to ignore the law regarding the number of passengers would be the consequences if an accident were to happen. I am pretty sure that the parents of the driver could be held liable if they knowing allowed the teen to drive with excess passangers. I don't think it would matter who purchased tha car, since the driver/purchaser is under 18.

Edited March 16, 2019 by City Mouse

[Ali in OR]

Here in Oregon they cannot have teens in the car other than family for the first 6 months. I work in a high school and see many risk-taking, poor-decision-making young drivers. The parking lot right after school is downright scary. If my child was breaking the law by driving with friends in the car, she would lose the privilege of driving to school until the 6-month period was over (rest of the school year for my new driver). I would still let her drive to soccer practice or to do an errand with the warning to not drive anyone else. But no driving anywhere when there is temptation to put others in the car--not if they have shown they can't resist that temptation.

[Carol in Cal.]

2 hours ago, cave canem said:

Ha!  You are obviously living in the Dark Ages and are unaware of the moral superiority of someone who doesn't do things just because a parent says so.

This is true, I am.  Happily.

[Bambam]

Absolutely, we did expect our teen driver to abide by all laws. Our state allows one non-relative passenger in the car.  If we had found out she had more in the car than that, she wouldn't be in possession of it.

I do not fall for the 'everyone is doing it" fallacy.