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HeatherBaloo

Wondering if my 10 year old needs Barton

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First post here, forgive me for anything I do wrong!

 

She has not been evaluated except for a year of Speech Therapy. We've done SWR here at home sporadically. She's been in private school for 4th and 5th grade, the last year using All About Spelling. Her reading is okay - not up to grade level, but she does enjoy reading. The issue that has always been at the forefront is her spelling. It's so bad that sometimes I can't even guess what she was trying to write. Often times she is also not sure what she wrote. She will spell the same word wrong in three different ways all in the same paragraph. 

 

Her teacher this year said that she has made huge improvements during spelling using the AAS program, but that she doesn't implement anything she's learning during other subjects. That was just a couple weeks ago and I'm embarrassed to say that it was the first time I started suspecting dyslexia. I've never considered it seriously since she can read, but now I'm starting to see signs everywhere. She does well at Math but has always struggled on word problems. She gets majorly tripped up on proper names. I was doing a story problem with her, and she read the name "Morgan" as "mrah-groony." We've done a lot of phonics work with SWR and The Reading Lesson when she first learned to read, but I suspect that she is actually guessing a lot of words based on context. 

 

We are homeschooling next year for sure. I had her take the Barton student test. She passed A and C. She missed 3 on Part B, but I think that is easily remedied. Has anyone had success with a similar situation? How did you handle schooling with the "No Outside Reading" stipulation? I was thinking about getting Learning Ally and having her listen along to text books and just do worksheets or tests orally. Did you really cut out all language arts? Is it possible that my daughter has had dyslexia and I've been in denial for 10 years?? Her older brother is very quick and thinks like me, so I've always just assumed that she is a slow processor like her father. Now I'm kicking myself.

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Welcome! I wasn’t a Barton user, hope someone who was will chime in!  I may give some thoughts anyway.

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Don’t kick yourself, btw.  She’s probably going to do fine.

What you describe sounds like it could be “stealth dyslexia” .   Trouble with names could be similar to trouble with nonsense words, which is a Barton strength.  Barton might help. OTOH, if she is reading and enjoying it, Barton could be slow and frustrating for her, more than helpful.

@ElizabethB ? I think?  Is the right Elizabeth, has a program available online (?) which might help your daughter faster than Barton would.  Or if you tried it and it didn’t might help to figure out why not and what direction to try after that.

Edited by Pen
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12 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

We are homeschooling next year for sure. I had her take the Barton student test. She passed A and C. She missed 3 on Part B, but I think that is easily remedied.

Barton is saying she can start directly into the levels then. https://bartonreading.com/student-result/  

Has she had an audiology eval and an APD screening?

Yes, it's time to get evals. I would go ahead and do psych, SLP, OT, and audiologist. That way you get the full picture. Audiology can be through a university if you want, but everything else I would do with more experienced people. For the OT, you want to test for retained reflexes. You can also google for the tests and do them yourself. The SLP is to do more thorough language testing. The psych can diagnose the SLDs but also some comorbid things you didn't mention like ADHD. Yes, if she has low processing speed relative to IQ it is a disability and the psych will catch it. It will then go in her accommodations. My dd is in that position and uses her accommodations in college, so it's good to have that info.

If you can get a CTOPP done as a baseline before beginning intervention, that would be good. Remember too you can call Barton and talk through your screening test results with her. She's a lovely lady and I talked with her before beginning with my ds. It's possible your dd will progress quickly, and Barton has a generous exchange policy where if your dd goes through the first level in short order, she'll bump you over to level 2. If you buy the levels directly from her, you're going to get links for the online tutor training immediately to watch and prepare while you wait for your order to arrive. I suggest buying extra sets of the tiles as well, because the tiles accumulate as you go through the levels.

Fwiw, I own and used with my dd SWR (many years, oh my) and AAS1-6 (done after VT), so I can see how this would happen. Even owning all of those, Barton was what I needed for my ds. You have to bring in the tool that fits the dc. Now the other thing I would do, and I know it sounds like a lot, is get her vision checked as well. You can decide when, and it's not like it has to be done right now. But reality is the eyes have to work for this process too. My dd turned out to need VT (vision therapy) and some kids have dyslexia AND developmental vision problems. In her case her visual memory was exceptionally poor, which affected her ability to retain spelling. So you can bring in all the phonological processing, but if she has developmental vision problems those will need to be addressed to. 

The way to screen vision is to find a developmental optometrist, typically through COVD, and just do a regular vision exam (you know, the annual thing for $80) and ask them to SCREEN for developmental vision stuff. Now with my ds, I just took him back and had them do a full eval. He shies away from books (complex presentation, ASD with language delays, etc.) and I wanted to make completely, completely sure vision in no way was part of it. So my ds, despite his reluctance to read, do puzzles, etc., has off the charts good developmental vision, while my dd, who was an excellent, avid reader, needed VT for everything under the sun (convergence, depth perception, tracking, visual memory, etc.). So you never know, lol. I'm just suggesting an annual visit and asking them to screen.

Keep us updated on your progress! I'll bet she does really well when you move her over to this more powerful tool. She's probably going to go through 4-5 levels in a year if you book it. If you don't feel comfortable doing the intervention, I would hire a highly trained tutor. If she can work every day, that's going to improve her progress. There are, in theory diminishing returns, but basically you can work 60-120 minutes a day before you hit that point. Just break it up into short sections and work, teaching to mastery.

How is her ability to write brief things (words, sentences) by hand? If she's not comfortable with that, again you really, really need those evals to get that sorted out. Barton has a terrific tiles app. I wouldn't fiddle with that till maybe level 3 or 4, but it's there. My ds struggles to write anything by hand, so the parts that want the kid to write the words by hand for Barton were a bust for him, sigh. So that's just a heads up.

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@Pen I think you are right about stealth dyslexia. I looked that up and it sounds exactly like her. I'm not sure if the slowness of Barton at first would bother her, or not. She loved the Barton Student Screening lol. Like really loved the squares. I wonder if because I've pushed her for so long that it might actually be enjoyable for her to slow down and have something that's on the easy side. 

 

I'm occasionally remembering things that I gave her a hard time about. Now viewing them through the lens of dyslexia, it paints a different picture and definitely adds to the "mom guilt." For example she will often misspell words in an answer even when those words are included in the question. I always thought she was just being lazy and even chastised her a few times to pay more attention, but she kept on doing it. Realizing more and more that there were a lot of signs that I overlooked.

 

Anyway, thanks so much for you thoughts. I will look into Elizabeth's program once I find it.

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@PeterPan Thank you sooo much for all of this. We have done zero testing; I had to Google most of the acronyms you included to even figure out what you were referring to, haha. My initial thought is "no, there's nothing majorly wrong with her, and she doesn't need testing." But obviously my instincts aren't that good if I missed probable dyslexia for so many years. Actually her teacher this year said that she noticed a huge improvement in her spelling when she moved my daughter closer to the board. Their school has very tiny classrooms, so its possible there's a basic vision issue that's also been flying under the radar. I didn't even know that "visual memory" was a thing, but it does ring a lot of bells. My eldest son is an excellent speller despite me never really teaching it, and its because he is incredibly visual (to a fault). He can just see the words, whereas obviously my daughter can't. Last year in 4th grade they were doing just a simple spelling list per week, and she would literally get every word wrong, no matter how many times she would write it. I would even just have her focus on 5 words instead of 20, writing them over and over and over, and she would still get most of the 5 wrong. 

 

Kinda rambling, sorry. All that to say, I think you are right that I need pursing testing. Even if it all comes back negative, I need to rule it out so I'm not always wondering. I feel a peace about going forward with that now. She'll be in private school through the end of the year, so we can try to get all our ducks in a row before starting homeschool and probably Barton in the fall. 

 

So did you stop all language arts when you did it? Did you continue learning through audio books or something else?

 

She has enjoyed writing for fun in the past. Obviously she doesn't like writing for school, but I imagine most kids would say that. I found a 2 page story she wrote last year, on her own initiative. The handwriting is better than it is now, but the spelling makes it hard to understand. Practice=Pakt's  brother=duthr  trophy=chrofe  I asked her today if she likes writing and she said "well I would if anyone could read what I wrote! Even I can't read it." But she does do quite a bit of writing at school. Essay paragraphs, answers in complete sentences. Her teacher said that if she can sound it out and tell what my daugher meant, she counts it correct even if the spelling is mostly wrong. 

 

My plan was almost exactly what you said: get levels 3-4 with 2 sets of extra tiles for resale benefit, and then switch to the app when the words get longer. My husband has said he doesn't care about the cost, but that we need to go ALL IN on something and really make a strong push to get her skills to a workable place.

 

Thanks again. I've been reading through tons of old posts regarding Barton and dyslexia. Reading through bits and pieces of your journey has been super helpful.

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3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

He can just see the words, whereas obviously my daughter can't

This is called visualization.

3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

Actually her teacher this year said that she noticed a huge improvement in her spelling when she moved my daughter closer to the board.

If you are unable to afford an eye exam, the public school should provide it as part of the IEP process. Is your dd in a private school? Nevertheless, she is eligible for evals UNDER FEDERAL LAW. So if you are unable to afford any/all of these evals, I strongly urge you to go to your local ps and get them done for FREE. They will literally do ALL of them--OT, SLP, psych, audiology, eyes. They are required by federal law to ask about vision and audiology and if there's any question they will fork out for that too. There's absolutely no reason to go without these evals. If you didn't know it, you have the federal right to them. It varies by state whether they have to write an IEP and provide services, but they DO have to eval.

3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

she would still get most of the 5 wrong. 

I would not assume this is vision. For a dyslexic, you just asked the impossible, to sit down and memorize 25 digits of randomness. Until her brain takes in the orderliness of the language in a multi-sensory way, those bits may mean nothing. She may have vision problems too, but failing the Barton screening (which any 5 yo SHOULD PASS) is a huge indication that she continues to have problems that need intervention.

3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

probably Barton in the fall. 

Why are you waiting till fall to start intervention???

3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

Essay paragraphs, answers in complete sentences. Her teacher said that if she can sound it out and tell what my daugher meant, she counts it correct even if the spelling is mostly wrong. 

Don't get me started on christian school teachers and administrators blowing off disabilities. I graduated from a university that STILL tells people in the counseling and theology departments that ADHD is sin and that using DSM will send your kids to hell. Now the education dept doesn't say that, but it's getting overshadowed.

Edited by PeterPan

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3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

Obviously she doesn't like writing for school, but I imagine most kids would say that.

So change it. She should be using tech right now, end of discussion. If she had an IEP and the paper trail, she would be. So make it happen. Hand her the tech and tell the teachers to jump. 

There are lots of dyslexics who like to write. It's the great irony of life, that the people who have the most to say sometimes find it the hardest to get out.

Edited by PeterPan

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3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

So did you stop all language arts when you did it?

I think if you begin your intervention immediately the question will become moot. The SLP testing should also tell you if there are narrative language deficits or anything else going on you need to target. I would focus on Barton and adjust when you have that info.

3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

She has enjoyed writing for fun in the past.

That's exciting! Have you read Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides yet?

3 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

My plan was almost exactly what you said: get levels 3-4 with 2 sets of extra tiles for resale benefit, and then switch to the app when the words get longer. My husband has said he doesn't care about the cost, but that we need to go ALL IN on something and really make a strong push to get her skills to a workable place.

I love that your dh is all in on this and saying to spend what it takes!! What a man!!! :)  Why levels 3-4? I missed it. You start with level 1. 

Edited by PeterPan

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Might want to look at tech next, since your dh said to spend what it takes. Our local dyslexia school has all the kids on ipads in elementary and macbooks later. Then you have creative options too, like getting her into photo editing. Highly recommend. 

Edited by PeterPan

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Ben Foss radically changed my view on the value of tech and the need for us to present using TECH AS AN EQUAL OPTION.

Edited by PeterPan

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@PeterPan Thanks again for taking the time to share all this. I really appreciate your frank style.

 

To clear up a few things- She didn't totally fail the student screening. She failed Part B with the syllables, but I truly think she just had a brain hiccup. I've been throwing longer words here and there for her to clap out, and she's been fine. She passed Part A and Part C with flying colors. 

 

I would definitely start in Level 1. I didn't word that very well. Just meant that I'm planning on buying Levels 1 up to 3 or 4 with the tiles before switching to the app.

 

Regarding her private school, I totally get your concerns. But its not really that kind of school. Its very very small, low hours, and inexpensive. I am registered with the state as homeschooling her because the school doesn't have enough hours to qualify as a full-time school. So I am really the teacher to blame. Her 4th grade teacher didn't do her any favors, but her teacher this year and the school Administrator have been excellent with resources and suggestions. Her current teacher has been the one to suggest audio books and approved dictating her papers. (I just thought of that last week). But you are right about some of the problems that can exist with private Christian education. If I was paying more for a full-time education, I might be more riled up about it. The signs were there for me when I was homeschooling her up through 3rd grade, and I missed them or didn't take it seriously.

 

Honestly it hadn't occurred to me to start Barton now. We have a potential move in the works, so I was thinking I don't want to start diving in if we are going to have to stop in a few months. But reading what you wrote definitely makes me feel more urgency about it. Since her school is out at 12pm, I would be able to do it with her. I'm just not sure about pulling her out of all language arts and reading for the rest of the year. I guess my thought was to have her just coast through the end of the year at her school, and then start remediating. But that isn't really fair to her to put it off if we can start working on it now. 

 

I have lots more to say, but need to take a break for now. I have a MAJOR bias against using screens/technology, so I'm really glad for your encouragement towards that. We just got a working computer in the home a month or two ago and both my older two have started a typing app. Do you have any favorite typing programs? We had no computer before that, I did everything on my phone or borrowed my husband's work laptop in the evenings. We got a Microsoft Surface Pro, but will definitely be need a 2nd computer before starting homeschool in the fall. I will watch the video you attached. For now just need to think and pray and start making plans on getting evaluations. Thank you again for everything. 

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2 minutes ago, HeatherBaloo said:

The signs were there for me when I was homeschooling her up through 3rd grade, and I missed them or didn't take it seriously.

Water under the bridge. Happens to lots of people. Just pick up now. :)

3 minutes ago, HeatherBaloo said:

Since her school is out at 12pm, I would be able to do it with her.

Ooo, that helps!

3 minutes ago, HeatherBaloo said:

I'm just not sure about pulling her out of all language arts and reading for the rest of the year.

Well is she worn out when she comes home at 12? I think you've made some really good moves, having them get her onto tech and getting the conversations going. It sounds like they're trying to be flexible. What you could do is have them substitute a more appropriate option for things that AREN'T WORKING. Like if spelling isn't working, then that 20 minutes she sits on Lexia. It's evidence-based and software. Just pay the $$$ and get her going. It will be a nice complement to anything you do at home and that way you stop the parts that really aren't working. If reading time IS working, keep it, kwim? If they do silent reading and she's using audiobooks, keep it. If writing time while using tech works, keep it. Just modify what ISN'T working.

5 minutes ago, HeatherBaloo said:

We have a potential move in the works, so I was thinking I don't want to start diving in if we are going to have to stop in a few months.

I see your logic. I like to think in terms of what I can get done in 2-3 months of really focused effort. So like if you know you'll have 8 weeks and you know you can have a habit/routine for 8 weeks, I would do it. If it's going to make stress and that's going to be broken up or having that habit is going to make it dramatically harder, I would reconsider. I think she's going to make good progress. She sounds hungry to improve and like she brings a lot of resilience, willingness to work hard, etc. I think you could get a lot done working that after school, say 2 hours a day. Like really kill it. What I did with my ds during our Barton time was to work say 60-90 minutes in chunks and then hit more time in the evening before bed with drills for fluency and later reading from leveled readers. So you can break it up and keep it reasonable. Keep it joyful by doing cooking or something fun together every day so she doesn't come home only to a slog.

9 minutes ago, HeatherBaloo said:

I have a MAJOR bias against using screens/technology,

Think maybe God has a sense of humor? That's like me having two kids who love history and a husband who loves it. I HATE history, oh my. But I do it anyway. So here's the thing. I get that there are studies and kids can end up on porn and get lured in and all that. It's a discussion we don't have to get into, because it doesn't help you. I acknowledge your concerns and will tell you that the people I can think of who were most adamant about staying away from things didn't have it pan out as well as they had thought. It becomes this big lure and the kids don't then know how to discriminate or discern or deal with the issues. Some go off the deep end and just BINGE on the thing the parents avoided so much. SWB talks about this with tv and she's such a hoot. Apparently she went to college, after little/no tv at home, and binge-watched some kind of Chuck Norris western series they show as reruns, hahaha. That still cracks me up. But that's really mild. The stories I know are much, much worse honestly. So whatever your reasons, now is the time to say ok wasn't what we thought but we're gonna approach this bravely and christianly and sensibly. (I assume you're christian? dunno)

My advice would be to think of tech for your dd with SLDs as a prosthetic. You would never walk up to a person with no arm and say you can't use that prosthesis, it's made of plastic and it's killing the environment! No, you would put aside your strongly held convictions about the virtues of recycling and the need to wear organic cotton and let the person have their prosthesis. Well tech, for people with certain disabilities, is going to be a prosthesis. And they can use it to do some evil stuff, just like people can do evil with their hands and tongues and any other part they started with originally. It was never the prosthesis and was always what was in our HEARTS. 

That's the thing about homeschooling and living. We grow, we change, we learn. We're not stuck. We're not going to say that staying exactly as things were 30 or 40 or 200 years ago will solve our problems. We're going to meet things head-on and use our PRINCIPLES to live WISELY. It's going to be way more complicated, but it seems like a good transition for you. I think you have such joy ahead! You have a dc who is creative, who has these pleasures inside (a desire to communicate, etc.), who is resilient and continuing to try even though she has been failing (which is astonishing, many kids would have clinical depression at this point, seriously it should be screened for). If you have a cell phone, do it now! You have your surface pro, so google for how to do dictation on it and get moving! My kindle can do it for free. I only have one pc and haven't tried it yet. People talk about paid software (dragon, etc.) but free is good.

If you want to see paid, there's a lot of great stuff here. https://learningtools.donjohnston.com  Like I said, my ds isn't at a point to have used it. I used Inspiration with my dd and adore it. Right now I'm *just* beginning to do narration with my ds where he gives the narration into a voice recorder app and I scribe. But he literally can't hold his thoughts and stop with each sentence because even a simple narration is so hard for him. So for now, that's where he is. I'm still working on it, sigh. But your dd is probably ready to go into tech like this and soar. 

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I'm googling and it looks like your surface pro has it built in. Like I said, this is the norm for almost ANY tech now.  My googlefu is turning up tons of hits. And the paid software I linked you is really good too! Inspiration, Ginger, predictive software is really, really common now. So just try things, see what she likes.

Edited by PeterPan

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4 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

@Pen I think you are right about stealth dyslexia. I looked that up and it sounds exactly like her. I'm not sure if the slowness of Barton at first would bother her, or not. She loved the Barton Student Screening lol. Like really loved the squares. I wonder if because I've pushed her for so long that it might actually be enjoyable for her to slow down and have something that's on the easy side. 

 

I'm occasionally remembering things that I gave her a hard time about. Now viewing them through the lens of dyslexia, it paints a different picture and definitely adds to the "mom guilt." For example she will often misspell words in an answer even when those words are included in the question. I always thought she was just being lazy and even chastised her a few times to pay more attention, but she kept on doing it. Realizing more and more that there were a lot of signs that I overlooked.

 

Anyway, thanks so much for you thoughts. I will look into Elizabeth's program once I find it.

 

You might be right that she would enjoy something to go more slowly with. And maybe it could give some repair of relationship time too as you sit together with it.  

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The materials you're looking at are often going to be labeled for RTI (tier 1, 2, or 3). It's not about the speed but what level of intervention they're meant for. At this point you should be using tier 3 materials, and Barton is tier 3. You can google and get lists of options, sure, but that's how you'll know whether you're looking at the right stuff. It's why AAS and SWR can be the same conceptually but not able to get her there, because she needed a higher tier of intervention. And it's not about "speed" because you can go as fast as you want, working as intensely as you want, so long as the dc is onboard and mastering. The issue is the level of detail in the intervention process, how much is left to inference/assumption/application. Also, there are language (syntax and narrative) issues assumed in dyslexia. I just read another study this morning from the SPELL-Links emails where they were talking about a study showing syntactical deficits in dyslexia that were accounted for by morphological deficits or overload. So a tier 3 program is usually going to be hitting language issues as well, maybe in a light way but it may be woven in. My ds needed a higher tier of intervention than that, so we have additional materials.

So know the tier of what you're looking at and you'll begin to see the patterns. Don't be afraid to dig in deeply and let her make the neural connections. She has already done two other high quality programs that were a lower tier so there's no reason to repeat that with more tier 1/2 materials. You want something that has been recognized by official lists as being tier 3. If it's that and it's implemented with fidelity, it will probably work.

Just for your trivia, here's a program that is totally different but exceptionally high quality, age-appropriate for her, and an option. https://learningbydesign.com/word-study-products/instruction/word-study-curriculum/  What *I* would suggest is you do Barton 1-4 and then *move over* to another program if you want to diverge at that point. You don't have to, but that would be the time to do it. At that point she'll have been through all the basics, including syllabication. SPELL-Links is merging the history of OG instruction with a lot of new research and it's very hot right now in the literacy intervention world. I think Barton straight is great too, but if you're wanting other options they'll be out there and that's how you might do it.

Here's a link that came up when I was looking for some of those lists of tiered intervention options. It's a pdf from Alabama on how they're handling dyslexia in the ps. Shows accommodations, explains the RTI process, etc. 

https://www.alsde.edu/sec/ari/Dyslexia/Dyslexia Resource Guide.pdf

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I’d like to add that my main concern for your dd is reading—the difficulties with names and word problems for example.

with my dyslexic son (now in public high school), I downplayed spelling and handwriting, largely moving to keyboarding (typing), instead of hand writing, and using a lot of spell check, etc.    ...   I think it is working okay to have done that. ...  Luckily his current English teacher isn’t a big stickler about spelling either.  

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PS you can click on the title of the ElizabethB thread and it should link to a thread on WTM which has her website in one of the posts.  

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I tried to read all Peter Pan and Pen's comments but I have a 4 year old distracting me and a lot going on in my house so forgive me if I repeat anything. This is mostly about Barton as you've talked about testing and such.

Barton feels slow because it is thorough. You teach until the rule is automatic mostly. This is why it ends up transferring to other writing. It sounds like your daughter is doing well with AAS but it's not automatic enough to transfer. If your child is doing fine you can skip a section. Not a new rule of course, just a practice section. We tend to skip dictating phrases as they write the phrase in the sentence anyway. If he is struggling though we get the extra sheets off the website. How fast you go should depend on how well your child has things down.

If your child wants to read and write on her own I still wouldn't stop her. I think the issue is being forced to do something like reading a book while having to pretty much guess at most of the words.

My son with dyslexia actual hates screens but some love it. You may have to have some trial and error to find what works best.

The app for example frustrated him partly because if you touched the screen anywhere else (like with the side of his hand while trying to drag a tile with his pointer) everything would get messed up. The magnetic tiles and case made a huge difference in set up, putting away, and kept us from losing them but physical tiles were definitly better for him.

We started with splitting time and working on it multiple times a day to move ahead because I felt the urge to "get him reading" but then settled into 20-30 minutes a day and then off to other things. Is it boring yes but we treat it like excercise or chores. You just try hard and then go on to more interesting things. He works best for that length. He was still getting vocab through subject studies, read alouds, audiobooks, conversation, etc. If your child isn't getting the vocab it will slow him up later.

Barton teaches phrasing and asking who, what, where etc. This helps break up the sentence for  understanding. This will help with math word problems especially.

 

One last warning, Barton was made for remediation. It talks about a lot of stuff my son didn't know about. The focus was not on what words children know so you will find politicians doing the tango. I think it's fine to expand children's vocab but I really can't see reccomending it for a 1st grader. There just isn't enough familiar stuff for a really young kid. 

 

 

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You could try my syllables program, it has a lot of spelling, and give all the tests first, the tests are linked at the end, especially the nonsense word test, there are age norms for speed and accuracy.  The MWIA is also useful, at that age give the MWIA 3, you should not miss a single word and both lists should be read at the same rate.

https://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

The nonsense words and syllables of my program and Webster's Speller are helpful for my dyslexic students, and it moves much faster than Barton and is free.

 

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I am behind on reading replies here but thank you to everyone that contributed. I will get to all of them eventually. I've spent the day researching and scheduling different evaluations plus doing a little evaluating of her myself. It only made me more confused. According to Lexercise, she is reading at her 5th grade level, but her reading of nonsense words was very poor. She can easily read many harder words, but then when she gets to a word she doesn't know and attempts to sound it out, its all jumbled and she adds sounds that aren't there.

 

So I think I really do need a professional's help in sorting it all out. I have some appointments, but I decided I didn't want to wait. Pulled the trigger and ordered the 1st level of Barton just now. I will update.

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On 3/10/2019 at 9:54 PM, PeterPan said:

So change it. She should be using tech right now, end of discussion. If she had an IEP and the paper trail, she would be. So make it happen. Hand her the tech and tell the teachers to jump. 

There are lots of dyslexics who like to write. It's the great irony of life, that the people who have the most to say sometimes find it the hardest to get out.

Yup. I'm 99.9 percent sure I have dysgraphia. As in, I was an adult and homeschooling my son before I found out that writing isn't supposed to physically hurt! Never knew that! And in elementary I would get straight A's in school except handwriting, I got C's in handwriting. They used to make me sit in the back of the room copying out of dictionaries as if that would help. it didn't. It's still REALLy bad. Because of that I HATED writing assignments. Hated them. I also have ADHD so planning out a long assignment was torture. And now, I'm a published author with 6 books finished and another series about to be under contract. All because I learned to type, and a bit because of ADHD meds and strategies/tech. I use a writing software that breaks things down into chunks/scenes and color codes them, called Scrivener. And I write or die is an app that saved my ADHD butt...if you slow down or stop before you hit your goal is sets off an alarm, puts up pictures of spiders, etc, lol). 

Anyway, tech saved me. I went from hating writing to being a published author because of technology. My dyslexic daughter will never be able to take in knowledge as well with reading as she can with video, so we use a lot of documentaries, etc. And that just has to be okay. Now she's learning to type, and will start using writing software with spell check. As someone upthread said, it's like her prosthetic. 

1 hour ago, HeatherBaloo said:

I am behind on reading replies here but thank you to everyone that contributed. I will get to all of them eventually. I've spent the day researching and scheduling different evaluations plus doing a little evaluating of her myself. It only made me more confused. According to Lexercise, she is reading at her 5th grade level, but her reading of nonsense words was very poor. She can easily read many harder words, but then when she gets to a word she doesn't know and attempts to sound it out, its all jumbled and she adds sounds that aren't there.

 

So I think I really do need a professional's help in sorting it all out. I have some appointments, but I decided I didn't want to wait. Pulled the trigger and ordered the 1st level of Barton just now. I will update.

That is CLASSIC dyslexia. She's smart, so she can guess via context, but can't actually decode. There are some amazing videos from The Reading League on dyslexia that explain that and more. I highly recommend them. 

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9 hours ago, frogger said:

It talks about a lot of stuff my son didn't know about. The focus was not on what words children know so you will find politicians doing the tango. I think it's fine to expand children's vocab but I really can't see reccomending it for a 1st grader. There just isn't enough familiar stuff for a really young kid. 

Just to follow up frogger's fine explanations, hehe, I'll say yes Barton is aimed at 3rd or 4th (I forget) and up. I used it with a 6 yo and it sounds like Frogger did. So there will be a range of stories and the themes will range from appropriate for maybe an 8 yo up to things that would interest an adult. There's not anything overtly BAD, but if a story is maybe something not appropriate for the age of your dc, you simply pick from the other stories in that lesson. So every lesson is going to have 4 stories and there are what 10 practice books additionally for every level. So you have a huge range of options without any issues over being appropriate for a 10 yo. 

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2 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

I am behind on reading replies here but thank you to everyone that contributed. I will get to all of them eventually. I've spent the day researching and scheduling different evaluations plus doing a little evaluating of her myself. It only made me more confused. According to Lexercise, she is reading at her 5th grade level, but her reading of nonsense words was very poor. She can easily read many harder words, but then when she gets to a word she doesn't know and attempts to sound it out, its all jumbled and she adds sounds that aren't there.

 

So I think I really do need a professional's help in sorting it all out. I have some appointments, but I decided I didn't want to wait. Pulled the trigger and ordered the 1st level of Barton just now. I will update.

Wow, sounds like you've been busy!!! LOL If you can find a reading tutor who can run the CTOPP (which takes literally less than an hour) that would be the one thing to get done before you start Barton. Around here I can get that done for $75 with a reading tutor. Here's a link to Learning Ally's tutor list. https://learningally.org/Solutions-for-Home/Dyslexia-Resources/Tutor-Network  These people are self-referring, so it's not a statement of quality only a list of people who've put out their shingle. You might find someone who could get you in to get that CTOPP (or the TILLS) run.

Keep us posted! It's exciting to hear all you're getting done!!

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Just to follow up frogger's fine explanations, hehe, I'll say yes Barton is aimed at 3rd or 4th (I forget) and up. I used it with a 6 yo and it sounds like Frogger did. So there will be a range of stories and the themes will range from appropriate for maybe an 8 yo up to things that would interest an adult. There's not anything overtly BAD, but if a story is maybe something not appropriate for the age of your dc, you simply pick from the other stories in that lesson. So every lesson is going to have 4 stories and there are what 10 practice books additionally for every level. So you have a huge range of options without any issues over being appropriate for a 10 yo. 

 

I didn't start Barton until my son was 10 or 11 but even so we don't tango much around here and my 10 year old doesn't care if Susan is flirty or whatever. Lol 😉

 

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9 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

 

That is CLASSIC dyslexia. She's smart, so she can guess via context, but can't actually decode.

This is what I was going to say, but Ktgrok beat me to it.

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I started Barton after 5th grade with my son. We started as soon as school was out so that he was done with levels 1 and 2 and some of 3 before the start of the next year. We also did some intensive handwriting work. To avoid the outside reading, he did everything else with reading support. Either I read to him or he used Text to speech software or Bookshare books. (He was in an online public school, not homeschooling) we only made it through level 6 in the early part of 9th grade when we decided to stop due to the load of high school classes. In 6th grade, the school did aallow him to take the bare minimum of required courses to give a more time to do Barton, but after 6th grade he took a full load of classes. I think we made it through most of level 4 by the start of 7th grade.

I would love to keep going with Barton, but he is resistant now. He occasionally uses text to speech for long readings such as text book chapters, but he does fine with shorter grade level passages. His spelling has improved a lot, but all of his school work is typed on a computer, so spell check is used all the time. 

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15 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

I am behind on reading replies here but thank you to everyone that contributed. I will get to all of them eventually. I've spent the day researching and scheduling different evaluations plus doing a little evaluating of her myself. It only made me more confused. According to Lexercise, she is reading at her 5th grade level, but her reading of nonsense words was very poor. She can easily read many harder words, but then when she gets to a word she doesn't know and attempts to sound it out, its all jumbled and she adds sounds that aren't there.

 

So I think I really do need a professional's help in sorting it all out. I have some appointments, but I decided I didn't want to wait. Pulled the trigger and ordered the 1st level of Barton just now. I will update.

I would quickly work through my syllables lessons first, they work on nonsense words and cover everything...Barton is very slow.  Again, free, if you do a lesson a day it will take 2 weeks to learn everything you need to know to sound out anything.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Also, did you do the Barton pre-test?  If you have a phonemic awareness problem, the phonics will work a lot better if you address that first.  You can take that and the PAST, here is the the PAST, if any part is failed, get the full Kilpatrick book, here is an excerpt with several versions of the test at the end:

https://www.cec.sped.org/~/media/Files/Professional Development/Webinars/Handouts/Excerpts from Equipped for Reading Success.pdf

The book has hundreds of pages of phonemic awareness exercises and also has pages of nonsense words, very useful.

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14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Just to follow up frogger's fine explanations, hehe, I'll say yes Barton is aimed at 3rd or 4th (I forget) and up. I used it with a 6 yo and it sounds like Frogger did. So there will be a range of stories and the themes will range from appropriate for maybe an 8 yo up to things that would interest an adult. There's not anything overtly BAD, but if a story is maybe something not appropriate for the age of your dc, you simply pick from the other stories in that lesson. So every lesson is going to have 4 stories and there are what 10 practice books additionally for every level. So you have a huge range of options without any issues over being appropriate for a 10 yo. 

 

This among many other things was an issue with Barton for my child when I was trying to use it with a first grader. She did not engage with the Barton stories at all and therefore was not comprehending. Once we switched the problem went away and she was very much was engaging with and understanding what she read with no issues. She started predicting and wondering as she read, making comments and could answer questions. It was not really a level problem because she can understand stories that are above grade level.

Edited by MistyMountain
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Guessing rather then sounding out is something that needs to be addressed. It is a habit that is hard to break since it gets ingrained but it can be done. I personally prefer things similar to ElizabethB materials then Barton but there are those that do like Barton. 

Edited by MistyMountain
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4 hours ago, MistyMountain said:

Guessing rather then sounding out is something that needs to be addressed. It is a habit that is hard to break since it gets ingrained but it can be done. I personally prefer things similar to ElizabethB materials then Barton but there are those that do like Barton. 

:blush: Thanks!

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Read, Write, Type works on spelling and typing at the same time.  It is a bit young but very helpful and she will be able to do it on her own. Start with the Read, Write, Type level and complete it before progressing to the next level, and you may or may not want the Wordy Querty level, I've not used it myself and don't know how good it is.

https://www.talkingfingers.com/read-write-type/

I like to have my students stop all outside reading for a month or two, too, but you can also do extra nonsense words to help if you continue outside reading.  I work on word lists and nonsense words until the guessing stops. If you stop outside reading, it helps break the guessing habit.  A few extra minutes of nonsense words daily can help slow down what you're losing from doing outside reading--the outside reading encourages the guessing in several ways:

1. Most sentences have at least 50% sight words, which many students have been taught to guess or have learned to guess from seeing them over and over and this triggers the guessing habit.

2. If they have not been taught all the phonics they need to sound out anything and are not reading with 100% accuracy at the level of the text they are reading, at least a few of the words will be guessed, especially when there is context to guess from.

3. The nature of sentences and stories encourages guessing from context.

 

 

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