Jump to content

Menu

Escaping an abusive relationship


Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

If someone's trying to help someone in an abusive situation, you can find and give them information about resources in your area.  Typically there will be a local DV hotline and a local DV shelter.  Some shelters only take in women after physical abuse but many will accept women in any type of abusive relationship.  There is also a national DV hotline number which can refer someone to help in their area.  Local hotlines may be able to refer to other resources such as free counseling (a local YWCA may offer this also) or free legal services.

Don't tell someone that "you would leave" or that they're hurting their kids by staying.  They know there's damage being done, and they're probably aware of and counting the potential cost of leaving and their partner getting the kids 50% of the time (or more). Just support them and help where you can and let them make that choice.  Don't expect someone to be all better after they do leave.  It takes a very long time to recover from the effects of an abusive relationship.

If you pass along phone numbers, I think it would be wise not to put a description of the service on the same piece of paper. Of course, an abuser can always call a number and find out what it is for, but a piece of paper with a phone number will be more likely to slip under the radar than a piece of paper that says "City Domestic Abuse Hotline" or something like that.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I dunno, although I see some logic to this I think that the guy would experience it as belittling.

I think that a perhaps more effective way to respond would be to KEEP IT LIGHT and say, "Yes, I do love my mom, and I love you more!  Let's go on a picnic tomorrow!" and just keep going.

For the car cleaning, something like, Hah, there's hardly room for ME in here let alone someone else.  Again, keeping it light and also not getting dissuaded.

Those are hard stances to take once the habit of fear has built up.  I fully and entirely recognize that, and I fully and wholeheartedly espouse putting one's safety about this.  But I think that that keeping it light and keeping on going stance is the one that establishes the best chance of normalcy down the road, whether someone stays or goes.  It's assertive, not aggressive, but not submissive either.

This is hard to do because it is walking on eggshells and doing it makes you feel like you are abusing yourself. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I dunno, although I see some logic to this I think that the guy would experience it as belittling.

I think that a perhaps more effective way to respond would be to KEEP IT LIGHT and say, "Yes, I do love my mom, and I love you more!  Let's go on a picnic tomorrow!" and just keep going.

For the car cleaning, something like, Hah, there's hardly room for ME in here let alone someone else.  Again, keeping it light and also not getting dissuaded.

Those are hard stances to take once the habit of fear has built up.  I fully and entirely recognize that, and I fully and wholeheartedly espouse putting one's safety about this.  But I think that that keeping it light and keeping on going stance is the one that establishes the best chance of normalcy down the road, whether someone stays or goes.  It's assertive, not aggressive, but not submissive either.

Maybe. In my own case, lightness did not work, perhaps because I am a very gentle, accommodating person. Only a strong position helped me against a very dominant guy. So, for me, the best thing would be to say, “Well, I’m going zip-lining with my mom. If you want to zip-line with me sometime, put it on the calendar. But I’m going with my mom tommorow.” 

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

This is hard to do because it is walking on eggshells and doing it makes you feel like you are abusing yourself. 

Yes, it is extremely hard, and (KEY) it is not always the right thing to do.  It's never the right thing to do when you think it would trigger dangerous abuse.  Never.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I do. I think I'm average in the scenario that we are talking about in that I've never been in an abusive relationship. I do currently know someone who is two years past getting her husband out of their house. I do know quite a lot about patient advocacy and some of the resources I am aware of due to that would also apply in this situation. I don't know if that is enough to throw me into the "not average" category, what do you think?

I can buy a tracphone with cash  for $25.00. Then, also with cash, I can buy an airtime card, which is a tracphone debit card, and activate & connect the phone to it.

Keeping it hidden from the abuser would be the more difficult part.


I wanted to clarify something. I haven't been in an abusive marriage. My father was an emotionally abusive alcoholic throughout my child/teen years. I moved away when I got married at the age of 26. My brother can be emotionally abusive and physically destroys property if he is given the opportunity. With the exception of settling my mother's estate, he hasn't had the opportunity with me. Those few months were a bit scary - I did form an escape plan and always kept my phone with me, but we did have to be alone so that I could attempt to establish the fact that he wasn't a tenant on the property. Thankfully, he didn't take me to court when I sold the house, because he probably would have won due to squatter's rights laws.

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TechWife said:

An abusive person can make it impossible for his/her victim to do these things. Abusers isolate and their victims run great risks to develop friendships. The risks may be to them personally, but could include their children. Joining a book club because you enjoy reading and want to meet people is not easy when you know you or your children could get beaten for doing it. Every outside contact represents a loss of control to the abuser, a loss of power. Abusers will do what it takes to maintain control and power.

 

I agree with this.  The ONLY way my friend was finally able to get out and find a part-time job was because they were absolutely desperate for money, and were hungry.  Up until then, he wouldn't even let her go to the grocery store alone.  He never left her out of his site outside the home.  Even on their one computer, which of course she otherwise could use at least in the middle of the night while he was sleeping, contained some kind of a key memory device that allowed him to see any site she had been on and anything she had typed.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is SUCH a tough thing.  There just are no easy answers.

Last year I went through a huge storm and my husband (no ex) was sentenced to 90 years in federal court for sex offenses involving minors. 

It was amazing how hard it was for me to get access to any kind of help.  Even the women's crisis place said they could not help as I was not the one being abused.  Just think too, when I tried to call them I often got put on hold......what if the woman only has 1 -2 minutes to make this phone call and she gets put on hold.  I called lawyers and most of them refused the case because it involved federal stuff.  I even did a do it yourself divorce using a book from the library as no divorce lawyer would take my case.  And all of this costs a lot of money, cash money.

The blog I am starting is hopefully going to be helpful to women in similar situations but it is tough as every situation is so different and community resources vary so much as well.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 20
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Yes, it is extremely hard, and (KEY) it is not always the right thing to do.  It's never the right thing to do when you think it would trigger dangerous abuse.  Never.

I'm talking about when you have crossed the line where your abuser doesn't even need to bother because you do it to yourself. 

Possibly you are talking about an earlier stage in the journey.

Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

It's hard to discuss, really, because it's almost impossible to describe the way abuse screws up your perceptions and thinking.  But this - the way you can never simply respond naturally, every tone, every word, every approach is always being weighted up - yeah, it does feel like self abuse. 

 

But see, this is how NPD is well dealt with, and it's really hard, but it can make you feel very strong.  The idea that you have to censor yourself all the time is awful, and the 'wait, let me think what a normal person would do' all the time is such an unnatural feeling.  I dunno, yes it is degrading, and the disillusionment is horrid, but/and also it can be freeing and empowering to learn how to do this.  Because you feel like you are expressing your own actual self.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

But see, this is how NPD is well dealt with, and it's really hard, but it can make you feel very strong.  The idea that you have to censor yourself all the time is awful, and the 'wait, let me think what a normal person would do' all the time is such an unnatural feeling.  I dunno, yes it is degrading, and the disillusionment is horrid, but/and also it can be freeing and empowering to learn how to do this.  Because you feel like you are expressing your own actual self.

It's what you have to do to stay married to a narcissist, sure.

I'm not sure how it is in an empowering way of expressing your own actual self, unless you are a pretzel. Maybe it's different for NT people but I don't even want to describe the processes I have to go through to do this in a sustained way. It'd require a trigger warning.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I dunno, although I see some logic to this I think that the guy would experience it as belittling.

I think that a perhaps more effective way to respond would be to KEEP IT LIGHT and say, "Yes, I do love my mom, and I love you more!  Let's go on a picnic tomorrow!" and just keep going.

For the car cleaning, something like, Hah, there's hardly room for ME in here let alone someone else.  Again, keeping it light and also not getting dissuaded.

Those are hard stances to take once the habit of fear has built up.  I fully and entirely recognize that, and I fully and wholeheartedly espouse putting one's safety above this.  But I think that that keeping it light and keeping on going stance is the one that establishes the best chance of normalcy down the road, whether someone stays or goes.  It's assertive, not aggressive, but not submissive either.

 

Keeping it light is excellent for the moment. And the approach should / will differ but getting issues like this addressed should also be a goal IMHO. Even growth oriented people often don't know where to start. If someone completely refuses, then it's a whole different scenario.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

It's hard to discuss, really, because it's almost impossible to describe the way abuse screws up your perceptions and thinking.  But this - the way you can never simply respond naturally, every tone, every word, every approach is always being weighted up - yeah, it does feel like self abuse. 

 

Yes. You think about every single detail at every moment, hoping you can avoid setting him off. And in the in between moments, you think about how you have to survive this until the kids grow up because separating will be worse/dangerous (for the kids). And in the rest of the in between moments, you think about how you are surely making the wrong decisions about whatever you are deciding. You feel crazy. All the time.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Given the possibility of abuse, would you ever encourage your daughter to be a stay-at-home-mom?  Because of the power-shift in the relationship resulting from financial dependence, it immediately puts the woman on the back-foot.    I feel like I'm sending mixed messages to my girls.  Be there for your kids one day vs Stay independent.  How does she balance this?

Edited by Hannah
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

No.

Not a long term stay at home mom, anyway.

 

I added to my message to say that I'm sending mixed message to my girls.  Be there for your kids vs Stay independent.  I guess the answer is in making career choices that allow one to keep working part time and to always have an independent income.

Edited by Hannah
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hannah said:

Given the possibility of abuse, would you ever encourage your daughter to be a stay-at-home-mom?  Because of the power-shift in the relationship resulting from financial dependence, it immediately puts the woman on the back-foot.    I feel like I'm sending mixed messages to my girls.  Be there for your kids one day vs Stay independent.  How does she balance this?

Passive income.

Dd will probably quit school early to pursue a trade, so that's two extra years of income. She intends to do her apprenticeship in a high COL area, but move back to a low COL area after.

Also, she will have help in the young mum phase.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A friend of mine was going through this.  Her husband would give her grocery money and it was a decent amount.  I showed her how to save a bunch of $$ on groceries and she sent the surplus to her brother to keep for her.

She got up to over $3,000 in a year or so, and then decided things were fine again, (they weren't) and stopped sending the $$.  She is now divorced and wishes she had continued to save.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Hannah said:

Given the possibility of abuse, would you ever encourage your daughter to be a stay-at-home-mom?  Because of the power-shift in the relationship resulting from financial dependence, it immediately puts the woman on the back-foot.    I feel like I'm sending mixed messages to my girls.  Be there for your kids one day vs Stay independent.  How does she balance this?

I'll be encouraging my daughters to consider careers that can be continued on a very part time basis and ramped back up if needed. I ask questions about people's careers all the time--how did you get into this job, where did you get your training, what do you like it dislike about it. Around here,  I find women working as dental hygienists, nurses, physicians assistants, speech therapists, and other health related professions often just one day a week while raising their children. I know of a dental practice shared by four or five female dentists who each work just one or two days each week, though dental school is expensive and usually requires hefty loans.

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Liz CA said:

 

I realize Katy called the thread "abusive relationships" but I responded to a post that talked more about emotionally controlling / unsatisfying relationships and the value of having outside support, friendships, etc.

Emotional control = abuse.

edit: I see where this was addressed at the top of page 2; I'll leave it for the lurkers, though.

Edited by CES2005
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, StellaM said:

4. Family law court reform.

 

I think many people don't realize how messed up family court is.

Another helpful thing is to help with paying court costs. This is what we have done for my friend. Custody mediation was $375, for example. Since it was ordered by the court, she has to pay it or be in contempt, which will reflect poorly on her as she fights for custody of her teen girls. Teen girls who say they don't want to see their father, but he is pushing it, so the judge sent them to mediation. She finally has her first temporary custody order, after two years in family court.

Edited by TechWife
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Yes. Rehearsing everything is very weighing. 

Actions are also scrutinized. It's all kinds of messed up that I have to think about what I am wearing before I leave the house because his camera app will beep and he'll check it. Later will be questions about what I wore/my hair/why I look so nice, etc. The fact that I have to account for everything beforehand according to my counselor  is "battered wife syndrome" without the physical battery. 

 

Um, yeah. That’s totally wrong. 

Do you feel safe?

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, StellaM said:

...in the remit of friends/family. 

So my actual response to this thread is: if you suspect abuse, offer child care during times the abuser is out of the home. Remain non judgemental, and, if possible, help friend or family member think through a plan she can put into motion - short term safety plans, or longer term independence plans.

 

 

 

To this I would add, if it’s possible, have a cash gift fund. So much of not being able to leave is having no access to money. I believe being a friend who can hold and hand over cash when needed could save a life. 

Also, having hotel points to share or being willing to help rent a vehicle can make a difference. 

Edited by Seasider too
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:


Do you, as an average woman, even know that stuff?
(Not a criticism. I've been through the system and I still don't know how to do it.)

 

Well now you’ve challenged me to go figure it out! Enough novels and detective flicks have convinced me it’s possible, but as someone who has to hollar for a kid when I have questions about my own smart phone settings....😆

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Hannah said:

Given the possibility of abuse, would you ever encourage your daughter to be a stay-at-home-mom?  Because of the power-shift in the relationship resulting from financial dependence, it immediately puts the woman on the back-foot.    I feel like I'm sending mixed messages to my girls.  Be there for your kids one day vs Stay independent.  How does she balance this?

I've been thinking about this. I do have a daughter and she is a lot like me, ie a total romantic at heart and I wouldn't be surprised if she wants to marry young and have babies 😄 although some days she wants to live in an apartment in Paris so who knows!

Firstly, dh and I have built our lives with one of the main goals as providing a safe, stable place for our kids to always find a soft landing. We tell them that regularly. We wanted them to feel free to try things and make mistakes. We've sacrificed a lot and got really lucky.

Our plan with all our kids, but especially for her, is to graduate our homeschool with marketable skills already in place. She is nearly 14 now, she's already well on her way to completion of music levels (she's already at a level able to teach, which is a great way to earn income from home or on the side). She is (informally) studying bookkeeping with a family member's small business, with a few years experience and a certificate course at 16/17 (available here) she could work in any office at 18. Finally, during her final few years at home (15/16ish onwards), dh will be able to apprentice her in his trade, which she already enjoys and which is on the job shortage list in my country- as in, they are desperate for those workers, very easy to get a job, it's also a good base for adding/upgrading adjacent skills which are also available nearby. These are all also very portable jobs, she could do them anywhere in the country, a couple of them she could do anywhere in the world. We draw on the resources we have around us.

Now, she may leave here and never use those skills, but she has them if necessary. More than the practicality of being able to support herself and possible kids, is the confidence that she could. I've known many women who have started all over again with nothing but kids to feed. Very difficult. Certainly doable. The practical side of leaving my marriage has never frightened me (possibly I'm being too naive here!) it's the emotional side that I don't have the ability to contemplate, yay baggage!

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Hannah said:

Given the possibility of abuse, would you ever encourage your daughter to be a stay-at-home-mom?  Because of the power-shift in the relationship resulting from financial dependence, it immediately puts the woman on the back-foot.    I feel like I'm sending mixed messages to my girls.  Be there for your kids one day vs Stay independent.  How does she balance this?

I don’t have daughters but I don’t think I would discourage being a SAHM. That really isn’t what makes or breaks a situation.  What I encourage, of my boys too, is to not ignore red flags.  

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t have daughters but I don’t think I would discourage being a SAHM. That really isn’t what makes or breaks a situation.  What I encourage, of my boys too, is to not ignore red flags.  

I agree.  Being a SAHM (or SAHD) doesn't necessarily need to be discouraged.  All of my children will have marketable skills and will be comfortable in a full-time work setting, that I know.  But I know that a couple of my girls hope to raise children someday, at home.   They'll also be prepared to work, if needed, as I was.  I do think teaching them to have a wise instinct about people and relationships is more important (and being aware of red flags, as you say).

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t have daughters but I don’t think I would discourage being a SAHM. That really isn’t what makes or breaks a situation.  What I encourage, of my boys too, is to not ignore red flags.  

 

This. And with my girls (and my son), I've really encouraged them to advocate for themselves. I encourage them to speak up for themselves, put up boundaries (even with adults, even if it will be seen as rude), and develope their own voice.

As for the SAHM question, I'm encouraging my daughters to pursue a career that gives them the ability to stay home if they want. My girls have both stated the desire to homeschool and SAH. My 21dd is my wanderer. She's not in school, her interests are artistic (ei: no income). I think she'd thrive as a SAHM. In the meantime, she's pursuing her passions. If I had my way, she'd get a teaching degree because I think she has genuine talent, but she has no interest in school. 25dd has just recently figured out what career she would like to pursue and is in school. She also may ultimately end up being a SAHM and I think she would also thrive. Dd14 enthusiastically wants to pursue a career and is super driven academically.  She's drawn to the medical field. I predict that she will always maintain a career of some kind but she talks pretty openly about wanting it to be something that would be flexible. 

My preference for all of them is that they have something that gives them options like working part time, or returning after an absence (and that if needed, they could support themselves).

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, LMD said:

I've been thinking about this. I do have a daughter and she is a lot like me, ie a total romantic at heart and I wouldn't be surprised if she wants to marry young and have babies 😄 although some days she wants to live in an apartment in Paris so who knows!

Firstly, dh and I have built our lives with one of the main goals as providing a safe, stable place for our kids to always find a soft landing. We tell them that regularly. We wanted them to feel free to try things and make mistakes. We've sacrificed a lot and got really lucky.

Our plan with all our kids, but especially for her, is to graduate our homeschool with marketable skills already in place. She is nearly 14 now, she's already well on her way to completion of music levels (she's already at a level able to teach, which is a great way to earn income from home or on the side). She is (informally) studying bookkeeping with a family member's small business, with a few years experience and a certificate course at 16/17 (available here) she could work in any office at 18. Finally, during her final few years at home (15/16ish onwards), dh will be able to apprentice her in his trade, which she already enjoys and which is on the job shortage list in my country- as in, they are desperate for those workers, very easy to get a job, it's also a good base for adding/upgrading adjacent skills which are also available nearby. These are all also very portable jobs, she could do them anywhere in the country, a couple of them she could do anywhere in the world. We draw on the resources we have around us.

Now, she may leave here and never use those skills, but she has them if necessary. More than the practicality of being able to support herself and possible kids, is the confidence that she could. I've known many women who have started all over again with nothing but kids to feed. Very difficult. Certainly doable. The practical side of leaving my marriage has never frightened me (possibly I'm being too naive here!) it's the emotional side that I don't have the ability to contemplate, yay baggage!

This exactly.  I mentioned earlier how important it is to not feel trapped.  My xh thought I was trapped because I loved being a SAHM and I loved homeschooling. I always knew there was a limit to what I would accept from him and when I hit that it was like a switch had been flipped for me.  I knew I would would have far less money, but I didn’t ever think I couldn’t make it on my own.  My situation was never financially desperate....I knew he could not keep my half if our marital assets from me.  He tried though.  He tried to get me to agree that I would give my half of our 401k to our son.  Um, no.  He tried to bully me into selling our marital home to him for $25k less than it’s value.  Um no.  He even said, ‘I will starve you out....you can’t afford the mortgage waiting for it to sell. ‘.  He way underestimated me.  He always did.  

I think when we get to the point of telling women how to hide money for an emergency she must really be in a bad way.  But I think those are situations where HE is already hiding money and keeping it from her.  I never experienced that.  I just experienced bully tactics trying to get me to accept less than my legal share.  

One more thing that helped me with the most important issue—-custody of our son— was collecting evidence.  That proved to be invaluable for my case. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Hannah said:

Given the possibility of abuse, would you ever encourage your daughter to be a stay-at-home-mom?  Because of the power-shift in the relationship resulting from financial dependence, it immediately puts the woman on the back-foot.    I feel like I'm sending mixed messages to my girls.  Be there for your kids one day vs Stay independent.  How does she balance this?

 

Keep an iron in the fire. My girls - and the girls my boys will marry - will be encouraged/enabled to get education and credentials for a vocation that will enable them to keep some skin in the work world on at least a part time basis - teacher, nurse, bookkeeper, hairdresser, something - so they can have some income earning capability over the years. 

I do believe that a parent available in the home most of the time is best for growing children, so I’m in favor of scheduling that as much as possible through the school years. However, it shouldn’t all fall on mom's shoulders - she shouldn’t be the only one to have to sacrifice opportunity to raise children if both people. 

Also, the finances - keep some separateness. Spouses should be able to work together to accomplish financial goals without one feeling trapped. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't been on in a while, but I check in occasionally, but I had to sign in to respond to this.....

<><><><>

How could you help? Invite them over/on outings. But understand if they have tight time restrictions (have to be home by x:00) or can't talk or text in the evenings, or don't have access to large amounts of $$ for activities or just listen without judging.

<Hugs> to everyone else in this boat.

 

 

 

Edited by Um_2_4
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

 

One more thing that helped me with the most important issue—-custody of our son— was collecting evidence.  That proved to be invaluable for my case. 

And meaningless in mine.

You have to do it, because there's nothing else you can do,  but they don't have to read, believe or care. I lost count of the amount of logical fallacies the court room supplied!

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Hannah said:

Given the possibility of abuse, would you ever encourage your daughter to be a stay-at-home-mom?  Because of the power-shift in the relationship resulting from financial dependence, it immediately puts the woman on the back-foot.    I feel like I'm sending mixed messages to my girls.  Be there for your kids one day vs Stay independent.  How does she balance this?

I don’t encourage mine to be a SAHM, although if she does become that, with her current trajectory, I think she is less likely to suffer ill from the choice. It’s not just potential for abuse. It’s that I don’t think it is ideal for a women to be so vulnerable. Lots of scenarios could happen that put a mom with young kids in a very bad situation. 

In some ways, I regret having gone the SAH, Hsing route. I see my nieces becoming moms and they all have significant work in their own right - lawyer, accountant, speech pathologist, business owner - it’s wiser. Not only are they unlikely to be abused, they are also not blind-sided if their mates are injured or get a bad diagnosis. They do have more power in their relationships than I had at the same time n my life. I loved homeschooling (at one time), but I probably also would have loved career work. And I wouldn’t be sitting here at nearly 48, trying to figure out what comes next. 

I do not say this to any of my kids, but my dd and I have had discussions about women becoming trapped in a bad situtation because she developed no marketable skills and had a bunch of babies very young. (Think Annna Duggar.) If my dd or future DILs want to homeschool, I wouldn’t tell them they should not, but I would strongly advise them to keep a foot in the door in a marketable field, and to have elements of their lives not tied up in the kids and mate. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...