Where do I start them?

[wolfjax]

We are approaching the end of our first year homeschooling and I don't feel like I have done a good job of it. I have two boys one in the 4th grade and the other in 7th. I am working my way through "The Well-Trained Mind" book and planning for next year, but I am feeling like I need to roll the years back and do it over. But, seeing as how that is not possible. How do I decide where to start the boys? My 4^th grader can read well but doesn’t like to.  He can write but has trouble coming up with what to write on any given topic. Math is not a problem and we have worked through a book and a half from “Math U See”. My 7^th grader was reading in Kindergarten and used to read a lot, but has since lost that love of reading. He was in 6^th grade honors class last year in public school. But based on our experience, I would not call it honors class. Again, Math is not a problem he will likely be going into pre-algebra later this year or early next year. I struggle with where to place them and how to implement whatever plan I come up with both of us work full time. I (Dad) work swing shift and mom works days so I am the primary teacher and only have about 3-4 hours per day for any instruction. I am seeking some sage wisdom from seasoned pros. Thank you in advance.

[wolfjax]

We tried IEW for writing and Grammar, but, I really struggled with them to do the work. My 4th grader struggles, well both really struggle, with forming good sentences and I struggle in teaching them. IEW is for me, challenging to use. I never did very good with writing, so to help them is a challenge.  We are reading through a couple classics that they seem to be enjoying but still won't do the reading on their own. My 4th grader needs someone sitting next to him most of the time to get him to do his work. We are trying Alpha and Omega's, Monarch online and I am not a fan but is something more then I can give them at the moment. I need clear scripted lessons at their level to guide them and me along. But choosing quality ones and at the right level is the challenge. Everyone claims their program is the best. I like the Classical approach, but will my boys? Will it be an ongoing fight? As for science we have tried the website ScienceLearningSpace.com and did a few experiments but again found it cumbersome and science is not high on the priority list and is often cut out. As for grammar (aside from IEW) and history they are really none existent at this point. I am still trying to figure those out. We tried Tapestry of Grace and found that super challenging for me, with lesson planning and getting them to read and, and, and, I could make a whole list of challenges with TOG. As much money as I have spent on failed curriculum I am reluctant to try new curriculum. but I know what I am doing is not enough. 

I am not sure if I should place my 4th grader at the classical 5th grade level next year  or keep him at 4th. I am not sure he is at the logical stage yet. And my 7th grader struggles at writing so I wonder were to place him next year. 

[desertflower]

Hello,

I don't have a 7th grader, but i have a 4th grader so I'll comment on that situation.

It sounds like you want him to enjoy and initiate reading and know how to write. If this is the case and it was my child,  I would do things differently.  now, I am no expert, but what I do to instill the love of reading is let them choose what to read. I then ask them what kind of books that child likes and read that aloud to him/her. I would also read something more challenging or a classic aloud/audiobook. I don't force reading (except for the 15 mins a day/lesson one has to read to read to me) .

I allow my children to play with legos while they are listening to a book.

I think he is still young. I didn't enjoy chapter books till I was 10 or 11. I think it was the small print on the page. I am more mathematically inclined.

With regard to the writing. Is it that he doesn't write at all that concerns you? Or he doesn't write creatively?

I find LA to be overwhelming.  it is so vast. grammar is just one aspect of writing. For writing I have grammar, spelling, creative writing (bravewriter), summary/outline writing (WWE/WWS), and persuasive writing (CAP's Writing and Rhetoric). I would like to add vocabulary.

First language lessons are open and go. Lots of hand holding there. Fyi, Level 2 has some review in the beginning which sums up level 1 nicely.

WWE is open and go. This will help a a child summarize/narrate a passage. A child has to narrate in complete sentences and it also has the following: comprehension questions, copywork, and depending on the level dictation.

I wouldn't underestimate copywork. While my child is doing copywork, I often point out grammar stuff. Commas, capital letters, proper nouns. My son just did copywork on the book of john from the bible in 10 months and his spelling has drastically improved.

I also find that my children like to write with me. So it is encouraging I think, that if one wants a child to write freely, to sit with that child and write freely with said child.

All of those combined has helped my son write . Now I am not sure if one needs all of those programs at once. We have put a hold on grammar because there isn't any time.

Hope this helps and don't forget to enjoy this journey!

[goldenecho]

The loss of love of reading would be a concern to me.  I would consider scaling back on required reading, and focusing on reading for enjoyment.   Let them choose the books for a while even if they aren't the books you'ld like them to read.  

My youngest is about your youngest age.  Unlike your son he stuggles with reading, and didn't want to read anything for a long time, or even listen to me read chapter books.   We broke through the listening barrier first.   Earlier, Piggie and Elephant was what broke through and helped him like reading more, so it didn't surprise me that a graphic novel was what got him interested in reading chapter books (not just listening to, but actually reading them himself).   We started out the same way that we did with Piggie and Elephant when he was younger...I suggested he one of the character's dialogue, and I read the rest.  Soon, he was wanting to read all the boy characters, and just yesterday he was wanting to read some of the girl characters too (so he's now reading almost all of it...I just read a little). 

Another thing that got him reading on his own was interest based chapter books...books on sharks and Pokemon and that sort of thing.   I still read these to him at bedtime if he chooses to, but I've caught him reading them on his own, which is huge for him. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by goldenecho

[HomeAgain]

I'll have a 4th grader next year.

For us, I like to look at it as a balance between finding things they love, doing what they need, and learning even the hard can be interesting.

1. Start with a parent/child conference. Sit, talk, and most importantly listen to their take on the year.  What did they like?  Not like?  What did they find difficult? Easy?  Get more information.  Don't judge their reasoning, but take notes and use them for developing the coming year.

2. Develop guidelines for each subject.  It's okay if your newly 5th grader isn't ready for more involved work.  Read the logic chapters again and, as he grows, slowly slip some of those methods in. I'm going to say that 6th was the hardest year in our house and we scaled way down for 7th in terms of my expectations because we needed the year to go well.  He just had a hard time handling puberty and the growing work expectations at the same time, so we moved back slightly.  This year I realized I overestimated my 3rd grader and rewrote guidelines for a writing curriculum.  I had a few on the shelf that may have been an okay fit (Writing Tales is a nice, low-key progym style work), but I found a different one that will help him integrate back into the program he liked last year (using Treasured Conversations between levels of English Lessons Through Literature)

3. Find a way to encourage more interest.  I had to look at the books I was requiring and the output I required from them.  We moved in a different direction and I themed the next year as survival: pairing up real life and fictional adventure or dystopian books with activities.  This is what my kid was interested in, not the original list I had.  And it was fine.  Once I hooked him in, it was easier to branch out to the rest of the stories.  Moving Beyond The Page sells single unit studies so I figured I could try one for $15 and see if it was worth it or not.  For us, it was.

4. Outsource bites, not whole subjects.  Don't commit to a full year with something if you are trying it out for the first time.  Either have the kids do a short class through Outschool or something of the like, or find a low-cost plan that you feel okay dropping if it doesn't work out, or find something in your community.  If your wife can do the evening work, have them sign up for a library program, scouts, 4H or something of that sort so that they're using their school skills outside the home.

5. Last, most important, find your passion again.  If you're not interested in the lessons or are dreading them, so will the kids.  Share with them things you enjoyed growing up or enjoy now.

 

[....]

12 hours ago, wolfjax said:

We are approaching the end of our first year homeschooling and I don't feel like I have done a good job of it. I have two boys one in the 4th grade and the other in 7th. I am working my way through "The Well-Trained Mind" book and planning for next year, but I am feeling like I need to roll the years back and do it over. But, seeing as how that is not possible. How do I decide where to start the boys? My 4^th grader can read well but doesn’t like to.  He can write but has trouble coming up with what to write on any given topic. Math is not a problem and we have worked through a book and a half from “Math U See”. My 7^th grader was reading in Kindergarten and used to read a lot, but has since lost that love of reading. He was in 6^th grade honors class last year in public school. But based on our experience, I would not call it honors class. Again, Math is not a problem he will likely be going into pre-algebra later this year or early next year. I struggle with where to place them and how to implement whatever plan I come up with both of us work full time. I (Dad) work swing shift and mom works days so I am the primary teacher and only have about 3-4 hours per day for any instruction. I am seeking some sage wisdom from seasoned pros. Thank you in advance.

 

Mine are mostly high school-age, but I will have a 7th grader this fall.

Are you wanting to follow The Well-trained Mind?  Have you seen this article about "starting in the middle":  https://welltrainedmind.com/a/older-child/  There is a section on this website with some articles, etc.  They also have mp3s in their bookstore on different topics - teaching writing, etc.  I'm pretty sure SWB still has a Youtube channel, too.  She doesn't have a ton of videos on there, but you might find something helpful.

When I am planning, I usually get a piece of paper and make a grid of which subjects I want to teach that particular kid that year.  I then start filling it in.  Sometimes my kids are combined, sometimes they aren't.  Over the summer, ALL of my kids are combined (if you can imagine - lol).  This fall, all of my high schoolers are combined and the youngest two have their own schedules.  I can show you my future 7th grader's planning if that would help.

I decided that from August to November, I want to teach the 7th grader these subjects: math, English, violin, astronomy and history (medieval times).  On my grid, I just started filling in what I want to do.  So, I know I don't want to teach grammar this year, because we *really* covered grammar last year, so we'll be taking a break.  I also know I need to be pretty streamlined, because this particular kid will probably be taking theater classes, Russian ballet and she's in a small dance company.  

Math:

• Life of Fred Decimals and Percents - and I'm keeping in mind that she might be ready for Prealgebra at some point during the fall, so I will be flexible.
• Hands-on Equations

English:

• Bravewriter's The Arrow/Boomerang 
• Wordsmith Apprentice (she needs extra writing practice)

History:

• Kingfisher History Encyclopedia (she will do some outlining)
• Time Traveler's Middle Ages unit study
• Knights and Armor Coloring Book
• A study of chess
• A list of readers about medieval times: Beowulf...The Dangerous Journey...etc. (she will write short narrations from the reading)

Astronomy:

• Real Science 4 Kids Middle School Astronomy + Lab Workbook
• Along Came Galileo

Violin + extracurriculars...

From your post:

4th grader able to read, but having trouble coming up with what to write....I think that is just fine.  My kids learned to write with the narration/dictation/copywork method, so they were not coming up with their own writing at that age, either.  If you're following TWTM, you'll see by 5th grade, you introduce outlining and writing their own narrations.  This will really boost their writing.  Also, notebooking helps - you know, like science or history notebooking.  My kids learned to write using the method in TWTM and my teenagers are really good writers.  

7th grader and reading...  Yeah, that's sad.  I don't have any suggestions other than I would try to let him choose what to read for literature.  I would also still read-aloud if you have time.

You only have 3-4 hours a day...I think this is just fine.  Every Sunday, I type out a weekly checklist of what we need to complete for each kid and put it on their schoolbooks.  On Monday, they just grab the checklist and start working on what they can do independently.  I then start with the youngest kid and work with them on everything they will need me for that day.  When that kid is finished, I move to the next oldest one.  I have 5 kids, so I can usually go up the ladder by 1-2 pm.  With 2 kids, I think you can do this in your 3-4 hours that you have available.  

Also, schooling year-round is your friend.  We've always schooled year-round, so if we need to take time off during the school year, it's no big deal.  It also makes it possible to only work on school 4 days a week.  I need a 5th day to get groceries, take the preschooler to library story time, pay bills, run errands, etc.  

Sorry I wrote so much. I hope something out of there helped you! 

[....]

10 hours ago, wolfjax said:

I like the Classical approach, but will my boys? Will it be an ongoing fight? As for science we have tried the website ScienceLearningSpace.com and did a few experiments but again found it cumbersome and science is not high on the priority list and is often cut out. As for grammar (aside from IEW) and history they are really none existent at this point. I am still trying to figure those out. We tried Tapestry of Grace and found that super challenging for me, with lesson planning and getting them to read and, and, and, I could make a whole list of challenges with TOG. As much money as I have spent on failed curriculum I am reluctant to try new curriculum. but I know what I am doing is not enough. 

I am not sure if I should place my 4th grader at the classical 5th grade level next year  or keep him at 4th. I am not sure he is at the logical stage yet. And my 7th grader struggles at writing so I wonder were to place him next year. 

 

My oldest two are kinesthetic learners and they were never able to follow traditional educational methods.  Except for a couple of years where we used curriculum, I have always designed their courses and put them together using mostly the library.  I always had to do strange things to get them engaged in school.  We had an entire semester where we did Harry Potter school.  We read Harry Potter, did creative writing based on the book, did chemistry experiments (potions), did art projects based on HP, etc.  I am putting a huge unit study together this fall for my high schoolers - Native American studies - we are covering Native American history and contemporary Native American literature.  I have to buy 2 spines and everything else I'm getting from the library.  Even the documentary I want to watch for school is on online streaming and I'm sure it's at the library, too.  

Try to keep science on the priority list!  Your priority list could be math, English, history and science (that's generally my priority list + foreign language).

I don't know where your 4th grader is at academically, but I always have to remind myself when I'm planning for the fall (during the spring) that my kid will be 5-6 months OLDER than when I'm planning.   

[PeterPan]

19 hours ago, wolfjax said:

My 4^th grader can read well but doesn’t like to.  He can write but has trouble coming up with what to write on any given topic.

WTM is no guarantee on that. My dd is a stellar reader with high ACT scores and my ds, with higher IQ, doesn't touch a book unless compelled. Of course there are reasons for that ranging from being an active busy boy to vision problems to SLDs to whatever. So in that situation, I'd be doing a little checking (looking at test scores, any testing that has been done, talking with him, doing some testing yourself, etc.) to see if youTi can figure out *why* he's so reluctant to read. If there are no decoding problems, no comprehension problems, no vision problems, no attention problems, etc., he might turn around just with nurturing. If there's a problem, obviously address it. But either way, definitely move on from any guilt you have. No matter where they are, at this point you just pick up the stick and get going forward.

As far as what testing, well tell us why you think he's so reluctant and people can make suggestions. Just depends on what's going on. 

19 hours ago, wolfjax said:

I am the primary teacher and only have about 3-4 hours per day

That's enough. You'll have issues if those 3-4 hours are at a bad time of day for them. Like if they are not morning people and  you spend half of it trying to rouse them, it's not going to go well obviously. But just in general, yeah that's enough. If you use STRUCTURE and communicate the plan and work the plan and collaborate on the plan, it's enough. Even to get you through high school it's enough.

19 hours ago, wolfjax said:

My 7^th grader was reading in Kindergarten and used to read a lot, but has since lost that love of reading. He was in 6^th grade honors class last year in public school.

This is an interesting situation. It's actually really exciting, because you have the potential to see a lot of good things happen over the next few years! Two pieces of advice. One, work backwards. If you're in this for the long haul, like through high school, then work backwards. You basically have two years here to have a lot of freedom, and USE THAT FREEDOM to get back that love of learning and self-directed sense. He lost that somewhere, and you can find it again. You want enough structure to help him function but not so much that he loses his sense that it's his education and he's doing it to himself. 

Second piece of advice is don't fight. If you're feeling stressed (people approaching high school do), don't fight! Don't worry about it. This is such an age of blossoming, and I think if you're patient and diligent you'll see what you want to happen. There's almost nothing that is wrong that is dreadfully wrong. So believe that it's going to turn out well and don't let your fears drive things. Don't push or compel or do things out of worry. Set a good plan that you arrive at through collaboration. Make a list of goals, including character goals (diligence, self-directedness, whatever) and help him work the plan. It will be fine.

19 hours ago, wolfjax said:

I struggle with where to place them

I would place your oldest for writing exactly where he is. If you're keen on WWS, I'd like you to notice that Timberdoodle is selling it for 8th and 9th, yes? Go check what they're doing in their cores. I used it later like that with my dd and she got great scholarships, is doing well in college. There is no reason why you have to look at this as behind. Just step in right where they are and do what fits them. Remember too, this dc will probably want to do some DE (dual enrollment), probably around 11th or 12th, maybe sooner. Talk through these ideas and opportunities and think what he'd like to work toward! And then just think through it, what skills does he need to go into that DE course and what can you do to get him ready for that?

Skills *I* would put high on the list? 

-typing

-ability to work from a schedule

-ability to turn a list into a plan for the day/week

-ability to type well (can't emphasize this enough)

-ability to manage time and distractors

-ability to learn independently from a variety of media and monitor comprehension

-comfort getting thoughts onto screen (organization, handling distractions, knowing what environment they work best in)

-ability to meet deadlines

So everything you do is working toward that. Beyond that, especially for 7th and 8th, doesn't matter a flying flip what you do. Go have fun, blow inhibition to the wind. Personally, I would make sure you nail the ability to outline and respond to essays. Could be via WWS or some other way, but I would nail that. But there are so many ways to do it and be in the spirit of WTM. With my dd, I chose well-written articles from Muse magazine. You can harness any special interests the dc has and run with them. The mistake people make in looking at colleges is thinking the colleges care only about NUMBERS. They actually want to see that you're interesting, that you're diligent, that you will contribute to their community. So blending the dc's interests with the concepts and skills of WTM just makes sense. Don't be afraid of letting them be unique and carrying these skills across to their unique interests.

[wolfjax]

Thank you all for your wisdom. I am taking all this info and putting it to a plan. 

Thank you

 

[Another Lynn]

So, priorities are - efficiency for you, effectiveness for them, and cover the basics first.  

Math - If what you have is working, no need to switch.  MUS's scope and sequence is unique, so switching may require backing up a bit.  If it's working stay with it.  For us, the beginning of each book was so simple and then the end (especially Gamma and Delta) got really hard - that was when I switched away.  When a kid is struggling with long division, an entire page of it can be overwhelming.  We ended up preferring a more incremental approach with mixed review - that is a review section with lots of different types of problems.  You said math is not a problem, so I won't say more about that.

Grammar and writing - so, if writing in complete sentences is difficult, some grammar may help.  First Language Lessons 3 is a fantastic place to start.  It's scripted for you (so you don't have to guess about what is appropriate for a beginner).  Because it's scripted it will take a few more minutes of your time than handing off a workbook, but it might be worth it for your 4th grader.  With time as a constraining factor, it might be hard to do scripted lessons with both of them.  So, you could give your 7th grader a workbook of some kind below grade level just to shore up what he knows.  Then do a more thorough grammar program with him in 8th and give your younger one a review workbook of some kind (maybe Daily Grams).  For writing - IEW can be great for struggling writers, so you could stay with it and stay at the beginning units for a long time until they are easy.  Or, for your 4th grader, give him copywork and ask him to tell you about something he has read - let his "composition" be oral for 6 months or so.  Then try IEW again.  

Reading - Use your limited time for read alouds for books that might be a little challenging for them - something they might not be willing to tackle on their own.  For reading on their own, let them read high interest, below level books to help their fluency and to encourage their love of reading again.  When you feel like they are more successful with that, they can continue reading a mix of below level and on level books (by level, I just mean some easy and some not too easy, not too hard - it doesn't have to be a precise lexile number.)  I would not do a literature program per se - it's likely to frustrate them and make everyone feel guilty for not getting done.  If you own a mix of books, put them on a shelf (one for each child) to choose from.  Or go to the library and check out a bunch.  If they don't read them all by the time they are due, take them back and let them pick a new batch.  Just require a certain amount of time to read every day, but give them choices.  

History - you could get SOTW on CD and let them listen on their own or in the car.  Done.  Don't worry about adding to it.  Don't worry about assignments, tests, projects.  Just let them listen and tell you about it from time to time.

Science - wait on this until everything else feels smooth and routine.  

[Skippy]

On 3/6/2019 at 7:08 PM, wolfjax said:

We are approaching the end of our first year homeschooling and I don't feel like I have done a good job of it. I have two boys one in the 4th grade and the other in 7th. I am working my way through "The Well-Trained Mind" book and planning for next year, but I am feeling like I need to roll the years back and do it over. But, seeing as how that is not possible. How do I decide where to start the boys? My 4^th grader can read well but doesn’t like to.  He can write but has trouble coming up with what to write on any given topic. Math is not a problem and we have worked through a book and a half from “Math U See”. My 7^th grader was reading in Kindergarten and used to read a lot, but has since lost that love of reading. He was in 6^th grade honors class last year in public school. But based on our experience, I would not call it honors class. Again, Math is not a problem he will likely be going into pre-algebra later this year or early next year. I struggle with where to place them and how to implement whatever plan I come up with both of us work full time. I (Dad) work swing shift and mom works days so I am the primary teacher and only have about 3-4 hours per day for any instruction. I am seeking some sage wisdom from seasoned pros. Thank you in advance.

 

On 3/6/2019 at 10:00 PM, wolfjax said:

I like the Classical approach, but will my boys?

I have homeschooled two children that have now graduated college and am currently homeschooling one more. I think maybe you are making this harder than it has to be. Any type of approach to homeschooling should be taken with a pound of salt. The approach should be molded to fit your family instead of vice versa. 

It sounds like you are doing well with math. That's great.

I totally agree with others who say that reading should be led by their interests. It is better for them to enjoy reading than be forced to read classics that they hate. Maybe they will grow to love reading classics later. 

Writing should also be interest led wherever possible. My sons were great writers when I let them do a lot of interest led writing. They hated writing when I felt like I needed to make them use writing programs. That was one of the bigger mistakes I made with them. So my advice would be to let them write about things they like, say a sports magazine (or whatever they like - especially the fourth grader). 

I like the idea someone already mentioned of Story of the World audio books (and many other history audio programs) for history in the car. This makes for good discussion with the adults. This is something I have done often.

My sons liked science that included a lot of experiments. This would require buying some science kits and letting them experiment. But my daughter prefers science books. There are some science books that have audio versions which work well when used along with the book, such as Apologia. This would help if you are having trouble getting the subject done.

You mentioned grammar, and Easy Grammar has always worked well for us.

Mainly, forget about the approach if that is the problem. If something is working and is getting done without complaints, that is much, much better than sticking to a particular approach.

I wish you all the best. I think with a little tweaking, things could really turn around.