Interesting article on teaching reading in the middle grades

[Lecka]

"Especially when reading longer texts, memory dysfunction may contribute to reading comprehension deficits (Perfetti et al. 2005). Connecting sentences together to construct a global understanding requires memory capacity. Although high-functioning children with autism have strengths in rote memory, they have memory impairment due to poor use of organizational strategies, especially when the information is complex and requires the creation of an organizational structure to facilitate memory (Williams et al. 2006). Reading for understanding requires individuals to construct an organizational structure and schema to aid memory. In addition to memory deficits and poor organization strategies, a tendency to focus on details makes it challenging for readers on the spectrum to connect text into a coherent whole."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892026/

This is what I keep coming back to..... I have read one of the embedded articles, too.  

This is talking about.... not word level, or sentence level, understanding.  But what happens when things get longer.  

They are saying (my summary) that kids need to organize their thoughts as they read and as they do things.  This is how they can remember better, by organizing as they go.  

So all that is needed is for "individuals to construct an organizational structure and schema to aid memory."  lolololol

This is where understanding text structure is supposed to help, because that IS an organizing structure.  

I think it's something where, it is so hard, but any improvement will be really worthwhile, and probably even help with daily life.  

This is because -- in theory if you have better organizing structures, you can use them to help interpret daily life, and not just reading.  

I really do think, the same demand is made to process what is happening around us in daily life, and then if we can't process when it comes to a book, we are probably also limited similarly when it comes to processing the things happening around us.  I think that is what they are saying, and it seems about right to me.  

I don't think Temple Grandin needs language concepts to do it, because she does talk in one of her books about how she uses visualizations to represent various concepts, but I don't think my son has got visual strengths like that.  

 

[Lecka]

I'm disappointed in Ohio, too!  It is so ironic, because when I lived in Kansas, it was like OCALICON was the best thing ever, it was like a pilgrimage people would make.  I didn't know any parents who went, but a lot of teachers and therapists were really, really into it.  There was also some kind of thing where people could go to OCALI for training, or something.  

But it was always presented like -- "Ohio is the place to be for this stuff."  

So I wonder if they don't appreciate (or just aren't aware) of things they have nearby?  

[Storygirl]

PeterPan, I'd have to go back and look at the social communication profiles again. I'll do that when I have a chance.

Kbutton, DS14 also has ADHD, and it's impossible to tease out how that affects things for him (other than noticing what the meds help). So I'm not surprised you are seeing some connections. There is overlap in DS, for sure.

For example, we had an email exchange with his math teacher about concerns she had. We had to go back and forth a bit, and then she described what she was seeing. DS was not working on his work in class. Instead, he was constantly looking across the room at other boys to see what they were doing. When asked, he said he thinks his friends are funny. We had to talk about how it was not socially appropriate, how he needed to be attending to his work, and also how it is the last period of the day, so that his meds are low or worn off. So he is seeking a kind of social connection, but in  inappropriate ways and at the wrong time. To me, this was ADHD and pragmatics mixed.

About the social skills being better with kids than adults -- It's been interesting when I've had the chance to observe DS with friends at school this year, when at cross country meets and school events. He never, never smiles at home, unless he is laughing at something that he finds funny. He does not smile at teachers or other adults. But his affect changes around his friends, and it was no longer flat but animated. I truly never see him like that at any other time. I have never seen his face light up with a smile, ever, to connect with people. But he does it with his friends. Which is so strange to me. I think that there is something about those interactions that brings out more expressiveness in him.

I have wondered how that will play out as he gets older. Because at some point, everyone will be an adult, right? Will he still connect with adult friends the way he has with teen friends?

The friendship thing is still fraught with trickiness for him. We talk a lot with him at home about what things are socially appropriate and inappropriate, because he actually is attracted to friends who can be socially inappropriate. So yes, I am happy to see him come alive. But I also worry.

[Storygirl]

Lecka, your points about reading comprehension also being about understanding the big picture is something I talked on and on about at his IEP meeting. Because the teachers considered him to have met his comprehension (and inference) goals, because he had answered some questions right enough times that they could tick it off the goal list that he could do it.

He does have problems with background knowledge, understanding figures of speech, etc., that can affect his comprehension of small passages. But the greater issue is whether he can comprehend the WHOLE. The whole book, the whole article, the whole period of history. Can he answer comprehension questions on a paragraph he just read? Probably yes, because he can remember details. (This is actually an area of improvement and growth for him over the past couple of years). But can he read a whole novel and tell you what it was about (not just what happened)? Not without a lot of scaffolding and support along the way.

He has to read Romeo and Juliet in English next year in ninth grade. Oh my goodness. The pitfalls that are ahead. The school has assured us that the teacher is fabulous and knows how to provide the support the kids need. But....... okay, I can't even think about it right now.

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Storygirl

[Lecka]

2 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

About the social skills being better with kids than adults -- It's been interesting when I've had the chance to observe DS with friends at school this year, when at cross country meets and school events. He never, never smiles at home, unless he is laughing at something that he finds funny. He does not smile at teachers or other adults. But his affect changes around his friends, and it was no longer flat but animated. I truly never see him like that at any other time. I have never seen his face light up with a smile, ever, to connect with people. But he does it with his friends. Which is so strange to me. I think that there is something about those interactions that brings out more expressiveness in him.

 

These have never been kids I have known well or been around very much, but I have heard similar from other parents with kids who have a solid autism diagnosis.  I have heard the same thing about it being hard for therapists to connect with kids.  And with kids getting older, it seems it gets harder this way, and at this point, I know there are therapists I think are very good, who can just not be able to connect with some clients, especially as they are older.  But the same kids will do better with peers.  

I think with reading about autism, I always seem to read like kids will do better with adults and worse with peers.  That is my impression.  But then -- apparently this is not the case, lol.  

Some kids do better with peers.  

My son was briefly in a social skills group, and I happen to know... (partly from talking to another parent).... they were hoping that it would be a good mix.  My son was better with adults and got along well with the therapist, and it was hoped he would get along with another boy who did much better with peers, and then be a bridge for that boy to maybe do better with adults.  And then there were ways my son might have benefited.  What ended up happening -- my son didn't hit it off with the other peers, and they were frankly boys I would consider higher functioning than him in general.  i was around them a little and doubted they would have much in common.  So what ended up happening was that my son did great in interacting with the adults, but didn't really actually interact with the other kids.  The other kids got along with each other, but were (my impression) on the combative side with the adults.  So it didn't work out as hoped, and we didn't do it anymore.  My impression was that they continued on with the other boys (who DID hit it off).  

This was soon after we moved here, and I feel like -- it can be hard for adults who individually interact with kids, to know how kids would interact with each other.  As a parent, I have seen my son and know what kinds he would tend to hit it off with, and what kinds of kids would tend to not be that interested.  I met the other boys and got a pretty fast impression that they would not be that interested in my son, just because I know this can happen.  But it was worth a shot.

But it was interesting to me that the person who set it up, really thought it might be a good grouping.  

Anyway -- apparently it is a thing, for some kids to do better with peers but not adults.  

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Fwiw it's not like any other SLP I've tried is offering to do this stuff either. Zilch. Zero. They have their pet things, usually things they can prep and do with all their kids with slight modifications. Once you say you want them to become experts on some nuanced issue that they never got taught in grad school, hang it up. When we buy these materials (SKILL Narrative, Interoception, MW/SGM, etc.) we're buying the phd level research of some person who was willing to sit on ONE THING for years upon years, trying to figure it out. The only reason it makes sense to us as homeschoolers is we're so jack of all trades. Think about it, some of us here have taught all the grades and been around. Or we have more typical dc ahead that we're comparing them to. Or we were teachers. We bring these other experiences and pull what we read of someone's research into that. It's the literal standing on shoulders.

The potential for what improving interoception *can* do is amazing.

I think my frustration is that Lecka's SLP and school apparently have a clue both where she is now and where she has been. Sigh.

I hope this is true for interoception. It's still "on my plate," which is maddening, but it would help.

[Storygirl]

So here is a tiny pity party.....

I have to admit that it hurts to see him smile at friends, when he has never smiled at me. It makes me happy to see him do it, but it's also painful.

Pity party over.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I'm disappointed in Ohio, too!  It is so ironic, because when I lived in Kansas, it was like OCALICON was the best thing ever, it was like a pilgrimage people would make.  I didn't know any parents who went, but a lot of teachers and therapists were really, really into it.  There was also some kind of thing where people could go to OCALI for training, or something.  

But it was always presented like -- "Ohio is the place to be for this stuff."  

So I wonder if they don't appreciate (or just aren't aware) of things they have nearby?  

Maybe so. I have noticed that there are wide pockets of people in OH who are very un-curious, but I feel like that's a really awful thing to say. I know people who are curious, for sure! But it just seems like people are always surprised that I look for things, lol! And a few friends who get it--they are like me, and people look at them the same way. I think there is a certain amount of "safety in numbers" thing--what everyone else does feels safe. It must be cultural to some extent.

I come from a very rural area. Is everything always state of the art? No. But when it's not, people drive, google, and ask for additional resources. Maybe it's just more accepted that you have to look (after all, if you want to go to a Target, you're driving 45 minutes to an hour away, and Target is kind of a newish thing even there--it's not like there is a big shopping center on every corner like where I live). I mean, my parents have driven HOURS for referrals for ordinary things, and compared to places out west, they aren't that rural. 

[kbutton]

13 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

He has to read Romeo and Juliet in English next year in ninth grade. Oh my goodness. The pitfalls that are ahead. The school has assured us that the teacher is fabulous and knows how to provide the support the kids need. But....... okay, I can't even think about it right now.

Yeah, I am so not stoked about awarding English credits here...do what he needs and call it remedial? Do age-appropriate materials with light output and push him through? It's so hard, particularly if there is any chance that doing what he needs will pay dividends in some area that means something as an adult vs. just giving him some cultural literacy and making us all pull our hair out.

I am not super confident about his "teacher" though--she's kinda drama on the forums and a big hot mess sometimes. 😉 🤣😁

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

https://nerdybookclub.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/the-day-the-universe-exploded-my-head-confessions-of-a-reluctant-reader/  This guy makes the comment that writing is the reverse of reading and describes himself as a reluctant reader. Interesting to think about the implications of that. 

I don't feel like I took the same thing from the article, but what you are saying is really interesting...while we've not made huge progress, obviously, my son who has the big issues with this responds to writing as reverse reading. When I wanted to start tackling issues with writing, I ordered The Reader's Handbook because I know that he reverse-engineers everything he learns. He started using it, and within a couple of assignments, he declared, "They should call this The Writer's Handbook." 

OTOH, when the writer talks about copious note-taking to process his reading, there is a local SLP (going to be at convention) who teaches annotation and such (not as a first-line strategy, lol!). I am not sure it will help my older kiddo, and I'm not sure it won't help, but I know that he's not been ready to do this yet. He didn't have the foundation to do it at all. Does he now? Maybe he could start. I am hoping to check her out in stealth mode at convention. I know people who use her services, but my encounters with her videos and such really turn me off, and I can't get a feel for whether she'd be flexible. But, her stuff looks interesting. I do think that what she does looks extremely useful for a segment of kids, and it's definitely holistic. She supports parents. She's also a fan-girl of a certain curriculum that makes zero sense to me--like I've read about it, and it sounds so cool in philosophy, but when I see the curriculum, I am completely confused, lol!

Also, The Reader's Handbook and a bunch or related resources (Daybook of Critical Reading and Thinking Skills, I think it's called), all teach that sort of thing. They also make extensive use of helping the kids learn to sketch their own graphic organizers on the fly depending on what you need for the task at hand. I think I am going to be able to use this stuff with my younger kiddo, but I feel like it's What my older son needs, just not At The Place he needs it. It's so frustrating! And it's not like those resources lock you into one strategy--it's more like trying a bunch, and seeing what you can do with them. 

[PeterPan]

39 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I ordered The Reader's Handbook because I know that he reverse-engineers everything he learns. He started using it, and within a couple of assignments, he declared, "They should call this The Writer's Handbook." 

Oh that's stellar! And you had probably said that but maybe it's finally CLICKING for me now. The implication is that by working on writing and analysis and retelling of texts I'm actually building his ability to see the structure in texts as he reads and hence reading comprehension. And since narrative language deficits I think are a huge issue in his comprehension, it could be a big win.

40 minutes ago, kbutton said:

copious note-taking to process his reading, there is a local SLP (going to be at convention) who teaches annotation and such (not as a first-line strategy, lol!). I am not sure it will help my older kiddo, and I'm not sure it won't help, but I know that he's not been ready to do this yet.

Yeah, I'm with you. It was pretty obvious he was reading for a purpose.

41 minutes ago, kbutton said:

a fan-girl of a certain curriculum

What curriculum? And will this be the GHC convention or something else? OCALICON isn't showing how will be there this fall. I'm totally looking forward to it, as it was so much more in the vein of what I need. I have missed a number of years of GHC/Cincy now, sigh. 

43 minutes ago, kbutton said:

it's What my older son needs, just not At The Place he needs it.

Is that a materials thing or a not developmentally ready thing? 

58 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I am so not stoked about awarding English credits here

We've talked about this before and I've suggested using Carnegie units (time spent) not credits. Or think about what your ps would do with him and be very realistic. Don't have some standard that is beyond what they would have. 

A different direction would be to look at what autism schools would do with him. We have a school that does inclusion with peer models, and they do what WTM would label as dialectic level work. That's their high school. It just is. So they do a lot of work, but they are doing it at the level that is developmentally appropriate for where they are. And I think they bring in DE and some higher things for kids who are ready, sure. But maybe find something to reference with so you know you're being appropriate for him, for how professionals working with him would place him and with what they'd require of him.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

OCALICON was the best thing ever, it was like a pilgrimage people would make. 

Actually OCALICON *is* that good. The issue is that people don't get to go. None of the OTs or SLPs at the private practice we use or the autism school we use went. It's all about $$$$$$, time off, who is paying. There's a lot of research presented and a lot of innovation going on. They have multiple levels of sessions (beginner, intermediate, advanced) so people at all levels can find something. It was EXCELLENT and way more useful to me with working with my ds than any homeschool convention has ever been. They have enough newbie level sessions that an intervention specialist, SLP, OT could go in feeling really overwhelmed and come out with a lot of really practical tools to make a difference NOW. It was absolutely stellar.

But no, the majority of therapists I interact with did not go and have never been, even though they're so close. It's always $$$. I went for like $75 but for them it's $$$$$ and time off which is more $$$$. And do they need it? How many times does a person need to go, kwim? If you bill at $140 an hour, how many hours of your day are you giving up to go for this? Someone will pay the professional entrance fee and go for 2 hours, I kid you not, because they don't have time.

Also, I guarantee you almost no one on the FB group for local parents dealing with autism is complaining about services and wanting more, more, more the way I do. They have basic complaints like not wanting their kid's aggression to be dealt with by constant restraint or wanting a waiver or something, but I'm way, way out there with my constant refrain that I want the moon. And that's what it is. I want the moon, I want to fix everything that CAN be fixed because there's a lot that just can't, and I know the window is closing. 

There probably is almost no difference in availability between places we're talking about here geographically, not overall. Our state has pockets of high availability and large rural areas with poor availability. But reality is a person in our state can move 30-60 minutes (we have a great economy, even a low-skilled worker can move and get another job) and get generous coverage. In a major city near us the county level funding covers EVERYTHING IN THE IEP. I kid you not. EVERYTHING. I mean, does that blow your mind? 

A lot of people would gouge out their eyes to have the opportunities we have. I just keep wanting the moon and wanting more. My kid can make sentences, so compared to the kids who are non-verbal he's so good that I get blown off. I want more, I want it all, I want all I can give him. Shoot me.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Lecka's SLP and school apparently have a clue

Her kid got ABA with the VMPAC or other standards from childhood and that's why he got those services starting young. And the rest of the stuff she talks about are just basic reading comprehension things you can find in Seravallo and Jan Richardson's books. There are no secrets here, no extra enlightenment. It's unlikely to think that even a teacher or SLP who has done those things would get in with an unusual nuanced case (super high IQ ASD with bizarre holes) and just nail it. They might, sure, but they might not.

You could look for another SLP. You could look for one who specializes in literacy or for a professor. But really, I've tried so many and they're largely scared of syntax, scared of the more complicated stuff. When they say they do expressive language, they pull out some stupid Grannie's Candies game. And they don't know how to handle behaviors, which means they haven't worked with my kid at least a lot. Very few, very few people are up to this. It's why researchers and the people who ask these questions stand out. 

I think the hardest reality is that we're going to do everything we can and then it will be OVER. It will end whether we succeeded in what we dreamed of or not, whether the kid can do what we hoped or not. 

The important thing to remember, and the thing that can give us peace, is IT'S GOING TO BE OK ANYWAY. When our anxiety takes over that, and we start thinking it won't be ok if we can't fix xyz or get xyz skill, then we are in trouble. Will it be ok? Really ask yourself. The last time I went to a GHC convention, THAT was the talk I sat in. Ds had just been diagnosed, and a lovely lady (whose name I forget, she's related to a regular poster) talked on the idea that it's no gonna get fixed and IT WAS OK ANYWAY. And only people who've been down the road farther can say that. It's a statement of faith and peace.

We're gonna do what we can, and it will be ok. Things won't get learned, and he'll be fine anyway. My goal is to know what fine anyway looks like, what a good life looks like, and be working toward it. I'm firmly convinced that winning on all the things I think are important right now WILL NOT GIVE MY DS A GOOD LIFE. However there are things that will help my ds have a good peaceful life that maybe aren't aren't showing up on his IEP but are important. We need to win at those. 

I want my ds to have leisure skills. I want my ds to be able to do modest cleaning and cooking. I want my ds to have a sense of work and that work is valuable and that he can contribute to the world. I hope my ds can have a sense of community and being wanted by the community if possible. All the other skills (self-regulation, communication, reading comprehension, etc.) feed into those, because he needs to be able to communicate and self-regulat to be in the community, to have friends, to travel, to enjoy leisure activities, etc. But I'm not confused. I may not win on some of the academics as much as I wanted to, but I'll still have met my bigger goals of making sure he has a LIFE.

[Storygirl]

Lecka, I love the article that you linked. I think that it, more than any other article or book I've read so far, describes the kind of difficulties that DS14 has with reading comprehension.

[Storygirl]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

The important thing to remember, and the thing that can give us peace, is IT'S GOING TO BE OK ANYWAY. When our anxiety takes over that, and we start thinking it won't be ok if we can't fix xyz or get xyz skill, then we are in trouble. Will it be ok? Really ask yourself. The last time I went to a GHC convention, THAT was the talk I sat in. Ds had just been diagnosed, and a lovely lady (whose name I forget, she's related to a regular poster) talked on the idea that it's no gonna get fixed and IT WAS OK ANYWAY. And only people who've been down the road farther can say that. It's a statement of faith and peace.

We're gonna do what we can, and it will be ok. Things won't get learned, and he'll be fine anyway. My goal is to know what fine anyway looks like, what a good life looks like, and be working toward it. I'm firmly convinced that winning on all the things I think are important right now WILL NOT GIVE MY DS A GOOD LIFE. However there are things that will help my ds have a good peaceful life that maybe aren't aren't showing up on his IEP but are important. We need to win at those. 

 

Thank you for this. It's really important.

[PeterPan]

Another important thing from that article L linked. difficulty shifting their attention from word-level reading to text comprehension.

This is what Cartwright talks about in her Word Callers book, where she plays multi-sort games where you sort words by meaning multiple ways. She connects it to that idea of seeing a word as something you decode (jibberish) AND something with meaning. I was making a little connection to something I do, mostly when tired, where meaning drops. It can be for language *or* text. Hadn't made the connection that it was the same thing. So then doing comprehension work while reading (or at the sentence level or anything) isn't actually about the comprehension activities. Ds can make inferences, pass tests, blah blah. He already has most of the skills. But if he's not turning them on while he reads, then he's just reading jibberish, with the meaning turned off.

 

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

What curriculum?

I will whisper it since it's kind of popular here...Bravewriter. And yes, GHC.

I just don't get it, lol! 

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Oh that's stellar! And you had probably said that but maybe it's finally CLICKING for me now. The implication is that by working on writing and analysis and retelling of texts I'm actually building his ability to see the structure in texts as he reads and hence reading comprehension. And since narrative language deficits I think are a huge issue in his comprehension, it could be a big win.

That would over-stating what I mean. 😉 I am saying that my son naturally made that reverse-engineering connection. It doesn't mean it's worked!!!

What's really interesting is that I think the same company makes the WriteSource books, so they have both sides to offer. 

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Is that a materials thing or a not developmentally ready thing? 

I think both. It's not made for intervention. And while my son "gets" what they say when he reads it, doing it is another story. We were always in deep weeds--for instance, we couldn't pick out main characters, so doing a character analysis would be a giant rabbit trail. 

I need to circle back and see if it's a better fit though. 

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, kbutton said:

I just don't get it, lol! 

Hahaha, ok. I borrowed the main gig (Jungle something, a really thick notebook) from a friend so I could spend time with it. There was nothing enlightening. It's stuff we already know. I'm not saying the sentiments and ideas in it are BAD, just saying you'll probably be like so I already knew that or thought that, kwim? 

But, you know, I'm always for hearing things afresh. Sometimes you make more connections or see it a new way. To me, and this is just me, I think there's this toggle between structural instruction and context. Context brings joy and life and meaning and motivation, and doing something more in a motivating context can get them to stretch, sure. I've got an OT right now who totally screams at this. She's got ds doing month-long projects building things to get him to write 3-4 sentences about the project. Seriously, that's a ton of writing for him! She never asks him to make any stretch like that without putting it into some joyful, motivating context.

But is that ALL he needs? Would incidental, in the moment instruction be enough for someone like my ds? Ha. He needs super teeny tiny incremental steps and the sort of lifting the bull by starting with the calf thing.

So me, I sorta think ALL these people have some truth and I'm going to bring in what inspires. If going that way gets something rolling for a while, do it. If it balances out what you've been doing, do it. If a person is an SLP and doing it, maybe she's using it to balance out her personality? Like me, I'm super heavy on the joy and floozy, so I have to speak sternly to myself to be consistent and use structure. But some people are so strong on structure they need to balance out the other way and bring in the context and pleasure and reality of it. 

So yeah, have fun. It will be interesting to hear what you take from it and how it helps you develop. 

9 hours ago, kbutton said:

That would over-stating what I mean. 😉 I am saying that my son naturally made that reverse-engineering connection. It doesn't mean it's worked!!!

Oh sorry, I'm so totally self-centered that "he" was referring to my ds, lol. I had seen this IMPLIED that teaching structure would improve reading comprehension, but it's just interesting to see it in-print and then have someone say it. And yeah, I thought your ds' lightbulb moment was profound. 

So yes, it's a total leap of faith, but at least I have multiple data points lining up.

Total aside on the reading comprehension thing. It won't help Kbutton AT ALL because it's probably not at all where her dc are but the LARRC I think may be like the answer to the world here. It's super-detailed, starts at the very beginning, gets them to THINK big thoughts about the text and structures and why things are the way they are, uses picture books, is free, and is multi-sensory! I started going through it last night in earnest and I'm super psyched. I think it could be this total lightbulb epiphany moment for him, the difference between doing something and doing something with understanding and intention. It could get really interesting. 

I'm going to start him at the Pre-K level in LARRC, because he can read the books for himself and because it's such an easy slide in. The bummer is it has 24 lessons to a unit and 4 units to a level. So I'm feeling crazy impatient at the moment, sigh. But we'll figure it out. I need to throw the files on my ipad and print the appendices or something. I'd rather have the whole thing printed, but one level would be like 1000 pages, mercy.

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, kbutton said:

We were always in deep weeds--for instance, we couldn't pick out main characters, so doing a character analysis would be a giant rabbit trail. 

I don't know. With ds workbooks, the much maligned lighter intervention level workbooks, have been really stellar for quietly building skills. My ds can't do anything unless it starts at the idiot-level. Like look at me with LARRC. Does he NEED to do the preK? Not in theory. But if I do the preK, he'll go all the way to the 3rd without problem. If I start higher, he'll just shut down. 

I don't know if that applies at all. I think photography and other life skills are like that too. The other problem is the IQ and this craving of novelty and challenge without the ability to accept idiot-level tasks.

I'm just throwing things at the wall there.

[kbutton]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It won't help Kbutton AT ALL because it's probably not at all where her dc are but the LARRC I think may be like the answer to the world here. It's super-detailed, starts at the very beginning, gets them to THINK big thoughts about the text and structures and why things are the way they are, uses picture books, is free, and is multi-sensory!

Not necessarily. My older kiddo is doing a lot of wash, rinse, repeat with easy stuff right now to get that kind of stuff down. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

Not necessarily. My older kiddo is doing a lot of wash, rinse, repeat with easy stuff right now to get that kind of stuff down. 

What I'm liking too about LARRC (not that I'm so very far into it) is the potential to kick it up with more advanced concepts. For instance, lesson 1 unit 1 in the prek level explores the idea that sequences have order and asks the student to ponder what would happen if things were done OUT OF ORDER. Well that's a very advanced concept to ponder! We can bump that right up with our dialectic level narrative skills where we actually do that ON PURPOSE, telling a narrative out of order...

I assume I'll see this potential over and over in the lessons, where we can just take it up. But the starting point seems good. I need to get it all printed out and get it going. I was just reading through the lessons last night and getting excited.

Meanwhile, the Interoception bundle came today and it's BEAUTIFUL, oh my. The cards are excellent quality, so psyched. 

[Lecka]

I think a lot of us are eager to hear how the Interoception goes!  

And the LARCC does look nice.

I want to share, wh questions have been a long road for my son, and it is a huge accomplishment for him to be able to ask and answer why questions and use sentences with because and so, even when he thinks something isn’t fair and would previously have been likely to get frustrated and scream or try to physically grab away a remote control, etc.  

Anyway — it probably took about two years for my son to go from being able to construct a sentence properly when he was somewhat provided with what words to use, to being able to use it to negotiate with siblings.  

In that time there were a lot of mistakes, nonsensical answers, backwards answers, etc etc etc.  It was a focus during reading time at home and daily life at home.  There was a huge focus and effort put in to trying to help him form proper sentences and generalize.  

It’s really not like someone just taught him a lesson from a classroom reading program, and bam, he was good to go.  

It’s not that I think this is what you should be doing, since you have your own feedback and ideas about what to be doing.

But I did want to share it is a pretty big, long-term, frustrating-at-times process.  It is definitely not something where he would generalize without extra effort.  

I do think what his teacher did with him looked a lot like Mindwings. 

Well, they might spend a year or two (this is in an autism classroom) going over and over the same level, and using different books, etc, etc, but always still focusing on “why” questions.  There could be other things worked in too, but my understanding is my son was placed in his small group to be in a group of kids who all had goals related to “why” questions on their IEPs.  

For kids who have gotten to be 8, 9, 10 years old and have not learned this by exposure, it is pretty hard stuff and it might be a main goal (or an organizing goal, because you can associate “why” questions with other goals where they can go together) for years.  

But this would be for kids who would not have much trouble doing it with a workbook or when the words or a phrase was provided to them.... but from there to open-ended questions and independent use is a huge gulf and it is generally going to be pretty hard, time-consuming, and with a lot of mistakes along the way.

I saw a presentation once about how many mistakes they would see with kids who were going from answering questions with the answer stated in the text (or verbally stated), to questions where the answer could not be found that way (open-ended questions, or predictions, or inferences, etc) and it was something like — kids (with autism) getting 95% of directly-stated questions correct, were getting 12% of open-ended questions correct, and it took months and months for them to get up to 50% correct, and then months and months more to get up to 80% correct.  

And then that was for kids who might be picking things up more quickly, it can be more of a “years” process than a “months” process.  

But even “months” is involving a lot of time and effort.