Interesting article on teaching reading in the middle grades

[PeterPan]

https://nerdybookclub.wordpress.com/2019/03/02/keeping-reading-magic-in-middle-school-or-how-we-reorganized-our-middle-school-to-improve-reading-by-tara-mccabe/

[kbutton]

The resource mentioned in that post is here: https://www.heinemann.com/products/e04693.aspx#fulldesc

 

[PeterPan]

Ooo, good find! Our library has it, so I'm going to request it once I pick up 16 of my 92 holds, haha. The system won't let me have any more holds; I kinda went a little crazy selecting books with that lexile book finder, lol. And the nice thing about the publisher site is there appear to be companion materials.

I was really struck by her comment that they had to bump ELA instruction to 2 hours a day. It's true I've been trying to keep them (math and LA) equal. But to get the effect we need, it's going to have to be disproprortionate. And I also liked her point about having a reading area. I have been shaking things up on how/where we work, and I don't really have a dreaming, cuddling, calling kind of reading area right now.

[kbutton]

Yeah, I feel better finding out that amount of time is reasonable. Of course, between that and quality math instruction, I am kind of wondering how people have time for science, history,...lol!

The samples for that book and the companion materials is pretty generous if you go to the publisher website.

[Storygirl]

I liked the article! I'd love it if my sons' middle school (grades 7 and 8 ) had this kind of emphasis. As a homeschooler, I was very focused on books and literature, and I did find that the schools did less, once we enrolled. What she describes is the kind of vision that I had for my own home classroom, but it was really hard to attain with students who have reading disabilities.

The fifth grade teacher had the most emphasis on exploring through reading, and part of what she did was make Accelerated Reading points part of the grade. It was so, so hard for DS14 to earn enough points each quarter (though he had a very small personal goal). The next year, my younger son breezed through the AR requirement and easily accomplished double his individual goal each quarter. Why? Because he had no reading disability, and DS14 does.

My point is that they are describing the response of students without disability. I found the descriptions that "all" of the students were avidly reading once they changed the focus to be a little unbelievable, though I have no doubt there was a big increase.

 

[Storygirl]

DD13's dyslexia school has an atypical schedule for the middle school. 90 minutes on language arts. 90 minutes on math. And 90 minutes on what they call Panther Block (panther is the school mascot), where the students are placed in an additional class with a focus on OG, math, reading, or writing (depending on the needs of each student). DD's Panther Block class this year is a writing class, with a focus on debate, so they are writing persuasive pieces and doing verbal debates as well.

So she is getting about three hours of language arts focused lessons per day. They do social studies and science on alternate days, so those are twice a week fpr a shorter time (45 minute classes, I think). So that is 90 minutes per week for science and social studies, versus up to fifteen hours per week of language arts.

The high school follows a more typical high school schedule, but the middle school is definitely structured to allow extra time for the core subjects.

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

DD13's dyslexia school has an atypical schedule for the middle school. 90 minutes on language arts. 90 minutes on math. And 90 minutes on what they call Panther Block (panther is the school mascot), where the students are placed in an additional class with a focus on OG, math, reading, or writing (depending on the needs of each student). DD's Panther Block class this year is a writing class, with a focus on debate, so they are writing persuasive pieces and doing verbal debates as well.

So she is getting about three hours of language arts focused lessons per day. They do social studies and science on alternate days, so those are twice a week fpr a shorter time (45 minute classes, I think). So that is 90 minutes per week for science and social studies, versus up to fifteen hours per week of language arts.

The high school follows a more typical high school schedule, but the middle school is definitely structured to allow extra time for the core subjects.

 

That is astonishing. And what you're saying makes sense, that they're having to spend 50% more time than the school in the article just to hold even.

[Storygirl]

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

 

The fifth grade teacher had the most emphasis on exploring through reading, and part of what she did was make Accelerated Reading points part of the grade. It was so, so hard for DS14 to earn enough points each quarter (though he had a very small personal goal). The next year, my younger son breezed through the AR requirement and easily accomplished double his individual goal each quarter. Why? Because he had no reading disability, and DS14 does.

My point is that they are describing the response of students without disability. I found the descriptions that "all" of the students were avidly reading once they changed the focus to be a little unbelievable, though I have no doubt there was a big increase.

 

I'm quoting myself here, because I thought I'd add more details.

DS14 (he was 11 then) had an AR goal of 7 points per grading quarter. His targeted reading level was determined to be 2.5 to 3.2 grades, so he was reading very early, simple chapter books for AR. We found the Stories Julian Tells series and read a lot of those.  He needed help choosing appropriate books. He needed me to require him to read them at home. He needed me to read them out loud in tandem with him and discuss what was happening. He needed me to track whether he was going to meet his goal or not and contact the teacher to discuss the related issues. His intervention teacher intervened and used pull out time to read picture books (!!) at school with him to get 1/2 point credits toward his goal, because every tiny bit helped. It was really, really stressful.

The next year, I did nothing to help DS13 with his AR goals. He chose the books, read them, took the online quizzes, chose the next book, and so on. He accrued something like 28 points each quarter, surpassing his goal, which was much higher than DS14's to begin with. DS13 likes reading and reads for pleasure sometimes. But he doesn't love reading (like I do). I would consider him an average, not avid reader.

I am referring to Accelerated Reader here as a good source of examples, not because it has anything to do with the content of the article or because I think it's an important aspect of reading education (I don't).

Creating a culture that encourages reading is so worthwhile. But it can be daunting.

I feel like I'm portraying a negative response to the article. I don't mean to. But I guess it struck a nerve. Because I tried so terribly hard to generate a love of reading -- and not only a love of reading, but eventually just a goal of a willingness to read --- in my kids. It was a primary goal of homeschooling for me to begin with -- the glory of all of the books!!!! I love books! And it didn't happen here. I really had to come to terms with the idea that it was not any failing on my part as their mom and their teacher, but that it was the disabilities (dyslexia for DD13 and comprehension for DS14).

I applaud the author's success in her school. I especially like that the whole school has learned how to teach reading comprehension strategies.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Storygirl

[Heathermomster]

My DD free reads everyday.  She likes to read and selects her own books plus whatever I give her.  DD reads in the living room and snuggles with the dogs when I count her reading for school.  I’ve never made a fuss over her reading, but maybe that is because she does it so much.  She’s memorized her public library card number.

When DS was in the 6th grade, AR was mandatory.  I’ll need to ask him to be certain, but I think he had to read 10 books per quarter minimum, and each book counted as 1 point of his final language letter grade.  During the last 2.5 weeks of 6th grade, I dropped him off at school an hour early daily and he completed 5 books.  I don’t know the book levels, but they must have been easy.

Looking back, the school should have provided DS with the audio versions of the texts as an accommodation.  Live and learn I suppose.  

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

He needed help choosing appropriate books. He needed me to require him to read them at home. He needed me to read them out loud in tandem with him and discuss what was happening. He neeeded me to track whether he was going to meet his goal or not and contact the teacher to discuss the related issues. His intervention teacher intervened and used pull out time to read picture books (!!) at school with him to get 1/2 point credits toward his goal, because every tiny bit helped. It was really, really stressful.

Yes, this is the kind of support ds needs. And I think there's that valid question of stress. It's ok for me to have some stress, but it's not ok to stress HIM. If he is stressed, he'll just totally shut down. The people who make the most progress with him go in and create some reason for the task, a context of why he wants to do it. 

So he's so funny. Last night I was too tired to keep reading our Little House book (Little Town on the Prairie), so he picks it up and is like fine, I'll read it, and he proceeds to read a chapter! I'm like rah, rah! Then I ask him what it was about, and he's like I don't know. Well that's his answer for most things, but if I read it to him he can get out SOMETHING and doesn't go immediately to I don't know. And, come to think of it, he wasn't doing things that he doesn't when he's engaging with text, like laughing or getting angry about errors; usually it's pretty obvious when he's engaging and comprehending.

I was thinking about the article some more this morning, and there was one little nagging thought I didn't have an answer too. Why didn't the kids KEEP READING the next year? In homeschooling, just across a typical population without bringing in the hardest data points of disability, just in general when kids begin to read they KEEP reading and you can't stop 'em! I understand if they were compelled and structured and had disabilities the kids might stop when you dropped those structures. But I *don't* understand that across a larger population without disabilities. 

And the reason it sorta matters to me is it goes back to that stress and forcing thing. If we work and work and I pile on all the strategies from                                             The Reading Strategies Book: Your Everything Guide to Developing Skilled Readers                                       and I compel him to read and structure the opportunities and have the piles, is it actually going to make a difference? Or, like you seem to be saying, is the disability current so strong that he's STILL going to be swimming the other way, back downstream, no matter what I do? We know there's data to show that, across the community, kids in reading intervention don't make progress. And the listserves will say that shows what hack crumminess the interventions are, but I think it could be more. It could be they're not using EBP, sure, but it also could be that some kids' disabilities are just piled so deep. 

But that's not really a satisfying answer, since kids like mine, like Story's ds14, are the rarity, the smaller percentage of the kids who will be going in. And what that means is we're giving up, which isn't usually how you want to roll. But I don't know. I definitely think we're seeing a wall here that some kids are going to have to have their own way to walk around. 

I think at the very least I want to know that anything I'm compelling him to do with reading will actually make a difference. There's sort of this toggle where sometimes you do the instruction outside reading and it gets carried over to reading. Then you don't spoil his actual reading. But we're saying we ought to be bringing those strategies INTO his reading.

I continue to think that actual language comprehension (syntactic complexity but also narrative) are his biggest issues. If you just pick out a skill (can he make an inference, can he answer a wh-question, can he pick out the most important point in the paragraph, etc.), he has those skills. We've worked on them with workbooks and he's doing them pretty nicely when we read aloud. But when I read aloud, I'm improving his comprehension of the syntactically complex sentences. He's not getting lost in description and things written in reverse and whatnot. 

He did really well with a non-fiction book from the pile Kbutton shared with me, reading the book with his ABA worker yesterday, no problem. And just the fact that he OFFERED to pick up Little House and keep reading is a good sign, lol. That's new, so maybe we're seeing fruit? I think if I keep up with the picture-book, strong focus on comprehension approach for required reading, then I'm setting the expectation in his mind that he CAN comprehend. We don't have to have that bar for pleasure reading and stuff he chooses to do. He CHOSE to read that chapter of Little House and did it really diligently and intelligently and with satisfaction. I think I only need to monitor what *I* bring to him.

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

My DD free reads everyday.  She likes to read and selects her own books plus whatever I give her.  DD reads in the living room and snuggles with the dogs when I count her reading for school.

I'm so glad she's doing well! It's a huge success and a relief! And how fun to hear how/where she's reading! I moved our LA stuff out to a table in the living room, so yes he's able to read on the couch, etc. I think like you're saying that's cuddly enough. I put my haul of lexile-driven books in a basket and that should work.

14 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

Looking back, the school should have provided DS with the audio versions of the texts as an accommodation.

Yup, I think right now, given what I saw last night, that using an audiobook along with a simple chapter book might bump ds' comprehension and allow him to read along and still self-monitor and comprehend.

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Creating a culture that encourages reading is so worthwhile. But it can be daunting.

Oh I've got the culture, haha. I think when ds isn't reading it's because things are holding him back. We have enough culture of reading that if he COULD he WOULD. I really think that. I mean, his attempt at reading Little House last night shows that! When he can, he wants to and is trying. But culture and motivational programs do not make up for language disabilities and things actually holding them back. And once you say sentence complexity is affecting reading comprehension, it's an abyss. 

In our reading last night it was logical to narrate using a so conjunction (this happened so they did such and such). Ds COULD NOT do this. Think about how simple, how obvious, how basic a construction this seems! And yet when you analyze ds' speech, nope he's not using it. And it's a later level of narrative too, getting into that cause/effect. And cause/effect is something that has always been crunchy on him. So there's not the concept and there's not the language, therefore no comprehension when he reads it. Imagine that. Or as Balthazaar put it, syntax drives meaning. 

We'll see how the lexile driven choices do. I haven't looked them over completely, but I sort of made the assumption that syntactical complexity factors into lexile. I don't know. And I have a book on conjunctions. It's just the never-ending task, sigh. Ironically he's using relative clauses just fine and that's one on the short list of oh teach this pronto to bump reading comprehension. Nope, he actually uses relative clauses in speech! But something so simple, just a nice normal happy tidy, useful, everyday conjunction like "so" is not on his list. Mercy.

I'm having an idiot moment and realizing I wasn't seeing the priorities. I was trying to work on adverbs, but really conjunctions would make a much bigger difference with him right now.

Edited March 3, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

So I'm fiddling around here on google scholar, looking for articles on reading intervention or reading comprehension in DLD, and I came upon a couple interesting studies.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0093934X84710443  This one identifies 3 subtypes of DLD, which I had never even pondered. It's older research, but still the idea that the DLD population is not homogenous is interesting. The 3 subtypes were global, specific dyspraxia, and specific comprehension. Spelling problems occurred in the global and comprehension subtypes but not the dyspraxia.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/87565640802564648  This study tried to break down language disability subtypes within autism. It split them across phonology and then across comprehension. So they were actually seeing significant clusters in all 4 possible combinations (low decoding ing with strong comprehension, low decoding with weak comphrension, strong decoding with weak/strong comprehension). Kinda breaks down the ps argument that the effect on language has to look one way and explains why we're seeing so much variation on the boards.

https://academic.oup.com/acn/article/20/4/443/2586  This is kind of interesting, though it's going in circles. 2005 study looking at SLI in the ADHD-C population. The verbal working memory was lower in the kids with SLI, and of course we know from the SLPs that ability to repeat a sentence is impaired with the language disability. But what's interesting is the poor verbal working memory was NOT associated with the ADHD-C but was linked to having the bonus SLI.

[Lecka]

Just a thought — can he use “because,” I have an impression it is easier than “so” but I am really not sure.  I think they are both cause/effect.  

[Heathermomster]

Have you examined the SRA Corrective Reading Comprehension materials?

https://www.mheducation.com/prek-12/program/MKTSP-URA04M0.html?page=1&sortby=title&order=asc&bu=seg

 

[kbutton]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

In our reading last night it was logical to narrate using a so conjunction (this happened so they did such and such). Ds COULD NOT do this. Think about how simple, how obvious, how basic a construction this seems! And yet when you analyze ds' speech, nope he's not using it. And it's a later level of narrative too, getting into that cause/effect. And cause/effect is something that has always been crunchy on him. So there's not the concept and there's not the language, therefore no comprehension when he reads it. 

Uh huh. Except my kiddo does get cause and effect quite well when it's in other contexts, so he does have that connection. My son will bring all the relevant information to the table, but just.not.connect.the.thoughts. He would list several facts about something, but he couldn't explain why he was telling us. It was up to us to see the connection and put it into words for us.

The SLP bought the Making Connections book for autism that goes with the Story Grammar Marker stuff, and that helped with connections in narrative stuff. I think my son is always looking for something black and white, and that book helped. So, he would get stuck on trying to mention the time part of the setting because the story would start with, "Once upon a time..." He needed permission to take that leap as well as someone pointing out that time might not always be what we think it is (I think even before help, he would be able to use time flexibly in some contexts, like "the time of the Civil War" or something like that). 

The other thing that is helping with cohesive ties is the Critical Thinking Triangle with SGM. It can be overthinking in some regards and some stories, but it's helpful. Once my son was getting it better, he kind of got mired down in too much analysis, so we tried something new. We gave him nouns (common and proper) and an exclamation, and he had to come up with a story. Then he had to write another story with the same parts, but he had to use those nouns and exclamation in a different way than in the previous story. It took a lot of talking the first time or two, but when he felt confident he could do it, the cohesive ties popped out. He is a natural problem-solver for some things (just a little stuck on the language of problems), and we had turned it into a problem for him to solve. It really helped in his case to do it that way. He used the SGM to come up with the parts (he didn't have to do it linearly though--he could brainstorm it until it was ready to be spun into a story). Also, once the story was written, he had to go back and be sure the components were all there. They might show up as a phrase, an inference, or even a single word, but he had to be able to show that they were all there. Sometimes he had to tweak things, but it wasn't nearly as hard for him as it had been.

We did a lot of talking about how to take just two or three things you are given to make a story and how we could look at the expected version of the story (and obvious cause and effect) and the unexpected version (a cohesive but far less likely scenario). I think that helped too. 

It's still a fledgling skill, but we went from total frustration to progress all of the sudden.

It's also starting to translate to reading comprehension--being able to interpret things flexibly. He is able to use re-reading/previewing the questions as a tool now. Before, it helped a little, but it didn't make a big difference, and when it did work, he couldn't really see that it was helping. Now, it's effective, and he can see that it's effective, so he's doing it.

[Kanin]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And just the fact that he OFFERED to pick up Little House and keep reading is a good sign, lol.

I'm sure that's true. He wouldn't offer to spend 20 minutes reading aloud if he wasn't getting some kind of enjoyment from it. I'd actually say he's probably enjoying it quite a bit to work for that long. Maybe he's understanding/enjoying more than he can express verbally. Lots of my students go straight to "I don't know," but when I ask them specific questions, they do have some answers, they just can't generate those answers out of thin air. They need the questions to be able to answer. Maybe that's what's going on with your DS 🙂 

[Kanin]

17 hours ago, Storygirl said:

DD13's dyslexia school has an atypical schedule for the middle school. 90 minutes on language arts. 90 minutes on math. And 90 minutes on what they call Panther Block (panther is the school mascot), where the students are placed in an additional class with a focus on OG, math, reading, or writing (depending on the needs of each student). DD's Panther Block class this year is a writing class, with a focus on debate, so they are writing persuasive pieces and doing verbal debates as well.

That Panther Block sounds awesome. At my last school for kids with learning disabilities, they had 2 hours of ELA each day and 1 hour of math. For most kids, having a lot more ELA was necessary, but for some kids, the opposite probably would have been better.

 

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Making Connections book for autism that goes with the Story Grammar Marker

I need to drag my stuff out! I pulled the files for the basic story elements to merge with our SKILL Narrative instruction, so I haven't looked ahead. And no, I had not made sense of the title or connected it to conjunctions, haha, that's sharp. I'll go see if there's anything there for us.

11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

My son will bring all the relevant information to the table, but just.not.connect.the.thoughts. He would list several facts about something, but he couldn't explain why he was telling us

It strikes me that graphic organizers or games with physical word cards (what we've been doing for other things) would be really good for this. Like we'll use a pile of picture cards and build sentences and make games with them.

13 minutes ago, kbutton said:

The other thing that is helping with cohesive ties is the Critical Thinking Triangle with SGM.

Yeah, ds just isn't there yeah, either with maturation or language. But eventually, definitely.

43 minutes ago, kbutton said:

two or three things you are given to make a story

That's interesting how you were doing that! 

43 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It's still a fledgling skill, but we went from total frustration to progress all of the sudden.

That actually makes sense. All the parts had to be there and it finally came together, boom.

44 minutes ago, kbutton said:

He is able to use re-reading/previewing the questions as a tool now. Before, it helped a little, but it didn't make a big difference, and when it did work, he couldn't really see that it was helping. Now, it's effective, and he can see that it's effective, so he's doing it.

Oh THAT is interesting.

Well thanks for sharing. My little list of things we can be doing keeps growing, lol. We also simultaneously have so many other threads going (interoception, church, typing, etc.). It starts to feel a little crazy and I have to just make a list and have the plan and work the plan, deep breath. But it's interesting hearing how it's working out for others. 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

Have you examined the SRA Corrective Reading Comprehension materials?

https://www.mheducation.com/prek-12/program/MKTSP-URA04M0.html?page=1&sortby=title&order=asc&bu=seg

 

I'm looking at it. One of the autism schools here uses it. It seems to overlap with stuff we've already done but in the later levels it gets interesting. I'm looking at the samples now, thanks.

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Lots of my students go straight to "I don't know," but when I ask them specific questions, they do have some answers, they just can't generate those answers out of thin air. They need the questions to be able to answer.

Yup. And that's where someone can be comprehending but what they're expressing. So you're saying you give them the questions ahead of time and have them read with those questions in mind? That's smart. I mean, duh, it's one of dd's accommodations in her paperwork and even in her college classes, lol.

 

[PeterPan]

There are placement tests for the SRA Corrective Reading. Also, I'm looking at LARRC and requesting the books through our library to get that going. At this point he can even read the books independently, which is a nice bonus. https://larrc.ehe.osu.edu/curriculum/

 

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

That's interesting how you were doing that! 

Desperate time, desperate measures and all that, lol! Both he and the SLP were getting frustrated, and I had this crazy idea to try...we'll see what comes of it all. I was ready to throw in the towel, lol! 

Actually, that kind of using the same words in different places in the sentence (and eventually changing the part of speech of words when possible) worked for making regular grammar click, so I thought it might work for story grammar too.

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It strikes me that graphic organizers or games with physical word cards (what we've been doing for other things) would be really good for this. Like we'll use a pile of picture cards and build sentences and make games with them.

That could work--I am not sure I envision precisely what you mean the in the context you quoted me, but I can say that my son was able to do things like combine existing sentences using those cohesive ties even when he wasn't doing it spontaneously in speech (Easy Grammar's Daily Grams has sentence combining). He could also use Easy Writing (from the Easy Grammar lady) to formulate the kinds of sentences they try to get kids writing fluently. So maybe using the word cards and such to do something of that nature would be a logical intermediate step, whether or not either of those resources would be something you'd need or are an appropriate level. 

Have you used problem-solving cards at all? They might produce situations where you could use cause and effect or cohesive tie language. We used them with a behaviorist for social reasons, but we didn't tie it to language (didn't know it was a problem at the time). I don't have a good link for a resource--I am not sure I can find what we have, and it might not be the right level.

[PeterPan]

36 minutes ago, kbutton said:

That could work--I am not sure I envision precisely what you mean the in the context you quoted me, but I can say that my son was able to do things like combine existing sentences using those cohesive ties even when he wasn't doing it spontaneously in speech (Easy Grammar's Daily Grams has sentence combining). He could also use Easy Writing (from the Easy Grammar lady) to formulate the kinds of sentences they try to get kids writing fluently. So maybe using the word cards and such to do something of that nature would be a logical intermediate step, whether or not either of those resources would be something you'd need or are an appropriate level. 

Yes, I have various sets of picture cards and I use them to work on the language. If he were given the sentences, he could memorize and do the task but not actually be able to use it expressively. So the pictures are a way to pull it back to life and active use.

37 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Actually, that kind of using the same words in different places in the sentence (and eventually changing the part of speech of words when possible) worked for making regular grammar click, so I thought it might work for story grammar too.

Shurley has  you do it for grammar (writing sentences from arrangements of part of speech labels) and Classical Writing (which no one uses anymore apparently) had you do it for various levels of the progymnasta, starting the story from various points, etc. 

38 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Have you used problem-solving cards at all?

Hmm, now that's interesting. With the pictures, we're able to target any structures I want to target, but adding in a problem or a requirement that one of the pictures be expressed as a problem is interesting... So the picture might be a boy eating an apple so you say "The boy wants to eat an apple but he can't find any." Earlier we were working on using verbs with infinitives, so saying things like "He wants to eat an apple." I had cards with all the common verbs that take infinitives and the pictures to give ideas to pair with them. We used 2 and then joined them with but and a negative. (He wants to swim but he does not want to play the violin.) We were working on self-advocacy and being able to say what you want or don't want, hehe. It worked. 

You don't actually have to do a ton with ds to get a structure to click. It's just that he actually needs that explicit instruction. Makes the pile seem kinda deep. I need something that makes the list more clear, but that's a total side discussion. I have some books but I don't love them. There's an illogic in trying to use only language to remediate a language disability, mercy

[Lecka]

https://m.superduperinc.com/productitem_sdm.aspx?pid=FD52

This is an example where you might elicit sentences using “so.”  I don’t know a lot about it but I have seen a lot of different cards like this to elicit different kinds of sentences.  

[PeterPan]

Yeah, right now I'm keeping my syntax work pretty tight (make a sentence using key words, use the structure in a shorter or longer narrative). I think bringing in pragmatics would complicate it by adding in that social thinking, perspective taking element. He actually benefits from working on the language in isolation.

[Lecka]

For my son they make his goals go all the way to using a conjunction in his everyday, self-generated speech.

What this means is, it’s a lot harder to come up with a sentence when you don’t have some of the components provided to you already.  If you have some of the components provided in a way where the child doesn’t have to come up with it, but can use something provided (whether that is with something written, something in your prior speech) then that is a lot easier.  

Then, if you do practice open-ended questions, without having provided all of the components that will be in the answer in some way (maybe just providing half at first, etc) that is STILL much easier than for the child to produce the speech in a conversational setting or sometime when it is just coming up in daily life, and you aren’t sitting in your nice quiet environment where there are no competing demands.  

So I would say — if you are incorporating open-ended questions or you just see him easily move into generalizing this stuff into his everyday language (which frankly we would not see without massive generalization efforts) then it doesn’t matter.

But these kinds of decks (and there are all kinds) also function to provide an open-ended question WITH a picture support (because there is a picture on the cars lol).  So it’s a higher support than just verbally asking with no picture support.

The thing is too, to some extent, there is a feeling that in conversation we never know when a new topic is going to be introduced, so it can be good to practice changing between topics.  

Which can mean — needing more different open-ended questions.  

And then if there is a feeling that they do want to have the picture support, then pre-made cards of some kind can be nice because they are pre-made. 

If you don’t need picture supports or can easily ask open-ended questions at different times and the conjunctions are being used, etc, and you see them showing up in his personal speech when you know he hasn’t just heard/seen part of the language he has used (aka he didn’t just re-use a phrase from something he just read, he came up with a phrase on his own) then I don’t think you would care.

But when generalization is a long process then they can be a step.  

Your son might generalize into his own language and his own thoughts/thinking more easily.  But for anything not designed for autism, it’s pretty likely they will not provide enough generalization for many kids with autism.  

And really you do *ultimately* want things used in the child’s own thinking and speaking (and writing lol).  

Ime they will have some opinion about when to move on and just keep up some things to encourage generalization, and when to not move on and focus on generalizing.  

But it is very frustrating when something is covered but then the child still can’t use it in other situations, or when you are on harder things and somehow an easier one is causing a problem.  

[Lecka]

For example, my son uses: and, or, but, so, and because in his everyday language.

What this means is, I see so much less of him making a statement or some statements, and then we have to have a guessing game for me to intuit what it is he means.  

It is really great for his everyday language.

What I would see all the time, is that *I* would see “okay, I need to intuit why he is saying this statement,” but other people (especially siblings) don’t bother or aren’t aware.  They think he’s just making a statement and don’t realize he is *wanting* to say more to explain himself.  

Being able to use “because” and “so” lets him say things like “you have had a long turn on the tv, so I want a turn,” or “I don’t like this show, so let’s watch [a show they both like].  Or, “I’m telling mom, because......”

It is 1,000 times better and he is getting along much better with his siblings from it, and just seeming a lot less like: he just wants something at random.  When he can say “because” or “so” he can make a case for himself and his siblings will respond by going “okay, that’s fair,” or by talking with him more using their own because/so sentences. 

It has just put him on a level playing field.  

 

 

[Kanin]

57 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Being able to use “because” and “so” lets him say things like “you have had a long turn on the tv, so I want a turn,” or “I don’t like this show, so let’s watch [a show they both like].  Or, “I’m telling mom, because......”

It is 1,000 times better and he is getting along much better with his siblings from it, and just seeming a lot less like: he just wants something at random.  When he can say “because” or “so” he can make a case for himself and his siblings will respond by going “okay, that’s fair,” or by talking with him more using their own because/so sentences. 

It has just put him on a level playing field.  

This is so interesting, and awesome that he's starting to use that language in real life! At my last school, the middle school ELA teacher did a TON of work (like all year) on FANBOYS (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so) and AAAWWUBBIS (after, although, as, when, while, until, because, before, if, since). The latter was much harder, but both were challenging. The middle/high school kids didn't tend to use words like while, since, until, etc. in their writing. I didn't actually notice if they used it in speech - rats. I wish I could go back and observe with this in mind.

[PeterPan]

https://pubs.asha.org/doi/10.1044/2018_AJSLP-17-0164  explores the need for causal adverbials in science content instruction. Kind of interesting, because this means you could start with your language instruction in a non-fiction topic that is easier for the dc (more concrete, more relatable) and then move over to the more abstract situations. And it also means you have limitless interesting ways to generate causals just by whipping out a handy science picture book. It's behind a paywall so all we get is the abstract.

Helping Little Kids Say Big Sentences - CDNhttps://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/.../DSHA2017_HelpingLittleKidsSayBigSentences_S... This pdf shows the stuff we've been working on with verb plus infinitive constructions. His psych wanted him using that construction for self-advocacy, so I had to up-prioritize it. Oh this is interesting, she's recasting the because sentence with so... Ha, and she's using the SPELT to screen! My kinda woman, lol. She lists some other tests (KBIT, EVT, CELFP-2 SS) so I want to see what those are. Oh, oh, this is awesome. She's EXPLAINING HOW TO RECAST. She's not liking some of the other methods of instruction. She wants you to start with a Q&A with a why question and recast that into a full because/so complex sentence, boom.

 

 

[Lecka]

He does also use “if.”  

I think he is iffy on the rest of them.  I do not even care about “although” because I don’t think it is in spoken English.  But the rest would be nice.

I don’t think he understands “until” or “since,” and then some like “before” and “after” I don’t think he is solid on (for understanding).  

It’s one of those things — I think he does understand “first do this, then do this,” but the same thing expressed as “before you do this, do this,” I am pretty doubtful he would understand.  (Edit:  in particular because it changes the usual word order, by putting the thing you would want “first,” in the second half of the sentence.)

Edited March 4, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

It’s the difference between saying “before you go outside, do this,” and “first do this, then you can go outside.”  

 

[Lecka]

PeterPan — it’s not only with non-fiction.  A lot of reading instruction for reading comprehension, involves teaching kids the constructions to use to answer reading comprehension questions.

That is the main way my son has learned them.  They get the concrete instruction, and then practice with open-ended reading comprehension questions.  And they will practice in other ways also, but it can do great tied to reading instruction.  

This is one of the reasons I would say last year, that even if my son was getting an hour a week of speech therapy, he was getting an hour a day of small-group reading instruction that was really helping his language skills.  

It is not a focus in his class this year, in the same way, he has a different teacher now and she prioritizes different things (also he is with some different kids etc).  

But anyway — I agree, it ties in great with reading instruction.  

[Lecka]

The thing is that “because” and “so” are needed to answer “why” questions.  So if there is a goal to answer “why” questions of some kind, that can mean teaching “because” and “so” in order to be able to answer these questions.

And answering “why” questions can be a speech therapy goal, or it can be a reading goal.  If it’s a reading goal then — reading is every day. It’s not limited time with the speech therapist.  

[Storygirl]

Interesting. DS14 can use the conjunctions in his writing. I'm not sure about all of them, but he has had to add "transition words," to his writing when editing. I am not working with him with his writing this year, because it is all done in class without homework. But in past years, when I helped him with editing, he could come up with transition words when prompted to use one. So he knows them (or at least many of them) and can use them when required.

BUT he often has to be prompted, or he won't use them. He has some relative strengths in writing, so he can use them when he knows the expectation. But if it not required, he will write the minimum. I've noticed that his writing for his language arts class this year is simpler, because the requirements are not as high as in previous years (he switched schools). So I know he can do more, but he chooses to do less. And I think it's not just a matter of trying to get away with the minimum (although that is possible), but it's because adding those extra phrases is hard for him. It doesn't come naturally, and it takes work.

And he does not use words like "because" when speaking. When i think of it, I encourage him to add phrases to his speech, but I don't do it enough, I know. It's something we worked on with a counselor awhile back, and I've gotten out of the habit.

In his IEP, his goals related to this are called elaboration. He is to work on elaboration in both speech and writing.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

And I think it's not just a matter of trying to get away with the minimum (although that is possible), but it's because adding those extra phrases is hard for him. It doesn't come naturally, and it takes work.

And he does not use words like "because" when speaking. When i think of it, I encourage him to add phrases to his speech, but I don't do it enough, I know. It's something we worked on with a counselor awhile back, and I've gotten out of the habit.

I posted that Ellesseff article where she was talking about the irony that therapists are wanting language and saying they're working on language but they're not SLPs and not actually WORKING ON THE LANGUAGE. They just assume it's there and the kid needs to try harder. But then we read the SLPs, and look how many ways to Sunday they're working it (in isolation, with picture prompts, with semantic coding, in the context of science, on and on) trying to build it. If my kid can't get out that syntactical structure (our psych wanted a verb plus infinitive) in something stupid and dopey easy, HOW in the world is he going to get it out to self-advocate while in a challenging, emotion-filled situation? He's not. So then the counselor/psych is like see, he clearly needs that goal. I think they're so pigeon-hole that they don't even realize what they're doing. 

So this is funny, a total aside. I had been meaning to play charades with him but it kept falling flat every time. So we've been doing this expository work, outlining and retelling narratives with either a list of details or a sequence of actions. So today for the charades I said fine, let's play kinda open hand, and you explain what you're doing. Either you're going to give details through your actions or you're going to show the steps, so I want three details or 3 steps/actions show by your actions. All of a sudden he could do it! Now he can't even recognize a CUP when you show it with actions. If you were to say something tall and skinny that you put ice in and drink out of, he'd get it in a heartbeat. But change it to actions, and now he's starting all over, saying crazy stuff like milkshakes, haha. 

I don't know, I just find it striking to see the depth of the disability and how much it affects.

[PeterPan]

We did the activity from that recasting article too, taking the answer to a why question and recasting it into because and so statements. It worked really well, and 3 was definitely enough, whew! I tried to do it again after a break to get 6 reps, but he wasn't up for that. He has a headache today and is grouchy, oy. 

So anyways, it was easy to read a simple science passage and frame a wh-question that he could answer both ways. He usually got immediately to the because, so it was more just converting it to the so.

[Lecka]

For the ones he uses, my son uses them all the time.  He will noticeably pause to come up with his sentences a fair amount of the time.

But between one thing and another, his listening comprehension is at about a 3rd grade reading level (a 3rd grade *reading* level, not a 3rd grade listening level, that would be expected to be higher than their reading level).  He is in the 4th grade and really does not have the listening comprehension for a 4th grade level.  

I think a lot of this is vocabulary, part of it is background knowledge (certain things are very much a lack of background knowledge, but things where the background knowledge itself is too abstract or outside of his life experience for him to understand it), and then some of it is text complexity.

But I don’t see 2nd/3rd grade stuff using the harder conjunctions very much, so I think he’s consistent with his overall level as far as conjunctions.  

He really enjoys 2nd/3rd grade level materials, too, so it’s not like he is getting bored with it.  And there is plenty of good vocabulary and background information for him, too.  

 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Lecka said:

But I don’t see 2nd/3rd grade stuff using the harder conjunctions very much, so I think he’s consistent with his overall level as far as conjunctions.

It depends. I think in the grade leveled step readers they're going to control syntactical complexity, but in picture books you can actually have quite a bit of complexity even in something aimed at younger kids. Technically, a dc is supposed to have most of these structures by age 6.

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

If it’s a reading goal then — reading is every day. It’s not limited time with the speech therapist.  

I think for ds it needs to be more than a reading goal. It's better to have language goals and carry them over to reading. But they were using the idea that things could be reading goals to deny us language services and hence language under the legal definition of autism. It was absurd.

[Lecka]

But if you look up the reading level of those story books, they will have a higher reading level.  Their reading level could be 4th grade, easily.  He has trouble with those depending on just how difficult it is.  

I don’t think that makes any sense to deny an autism classification, by saying a language-related goal is a reading goal.  Wow, that is pretty low.  

He doesn’t have a language section.  He has language goals spread around different sections.  I think the IEPs might be organized differently here.  They are not the same between here and the place we moved from.  

[Lecka]

I think — if in practice, a certain goal is going to be worked on in a certain context, as far as which teacher is going to cover that goal, or which teacher is going to report on that goal for the IEP, then it is fair to put it in that section.  

But putting a language goal into reading, doesn’t  suddenly make it not be a language goal!  

[Storygirl]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I posted that Ellesseff article where she was talking about the irony that therapists are wanting language and saying they're working on language but they're not SLPs and not actually WORKING ON THE LANGUAGE. They just assume it's there and the kid needs to try harder. But then we read the SLPs, and look how many ways to Sunday they're working it (in isolation, with picture prompts, with semantic coding, in the context of science, on and on) trying to build it. If my kid can't get out that syntactical structure (our psych wanted a verb plus infinitive) in something stupid and dopey easy, HOW in the world is he going to get it out to self-advocate while in a challenging, emotion-filled situation? He's not. So then the counselor/psych is like see, he clearly needs that goal. I think they're so pigeon-hole that they don't even realize what they're doing. 

So this is funny, a total aside. I had been meaning to play charades with him but it kept falling flat every time. So we've been doing this expository work, outlining and retelling narratives with either a list of details or a sequence of actions. So today for the charades I said fine, let's play kinda open hand, and you explain what you're doing. Either you're going to give details through your actions or you're going to show the steps, so I want three details or 3 steps/actions show by your actions. All of a sudden he could do it! Now he can't even recognize a CUP when you show it with actions. If you were to say something tall and skinny that you put ice in and drink out of, he'd get it in a heartbeat. But change it to actions, and now he's starting all over, saying crazy stuff like milkshakes, haha. 

I don't know, I just find it striking to see the depth of the disability and how much it affects.

DS14's issues skew differently than your son's, I think, but I worry about this, too. The psych we went to for counseling really focused hard on the conversational skills, because he targeted that as a need, even though it was not on the list of things we were going there for.

DS14 will do poorly in job interviews and in interactions with supervisors, so I really worry about employment for him. We are placing a high priority on employment skills training, but if the communication skills aren't there, the stumbling blocks will still be there. How, for example, is he going to even get through a job interview, when he closes down and won't talk to people other than to say minimum Yes-No answers to questions? Ugh. SLP at school is working on these goals, but I don't see the work happening (since I'm not there), and I don't see improvement at home, so I'm not sure he is making real gains.

[Storygirl]

On the way home from school today, DS14 was irritated with me for asking him details about an assignment I knew he was meant to do today as make-up work. He did not want to give more than a yes-no answer and kind of yelled at me for asking questions.

About two minutes later, he volunteered details about what he did in track practice, without me even asking.

I thought about it for a bit. I think that it has more than a little something to do with his theory of mind / perspective taking. He communicates when he wants to express something. But he doesn't communicate for the benefit of connecting with the other person or giving the other person what they need from the interaction.

I think his reticence or trouble with elaboration and expanding written and verbal sentences is related. So it's a social / language issue for him, but not mainly a use of grammar issue. In his case. He understands the skills but he doesn't use them. He does this in general with his social skills. So it may be more social than language for DS. But they are interconnected, really.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, Storygirl said:

He understands the skills but he doesn't use them.

Or are they so hard that he doesn't make the effort unless he's really into it or motivated? There's that continuum on any skill, from sorta has it to independently all the time and lots of stages in-between. 

[Storygirl]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Or are they so hard that he doesn't make the effort unless he's really into it or motivated? There's that continuum on any skill, from sorta has it to independently all the time and lots of stages in-between. 

Yes, I don't know. The speech portion of his IEP evaluation this fall came up with some quirky things. He passed the initial pragmatics testing that the SLP gave him, but she knew from working with him and his documentation in his IEP that he had issues, so she dug in and did other testing. She found that he can identify the social skills and nonverbal communication skills well enough to tick off things in the testing. But practically, he doesn't use them. More specifically, he does not use them when communicating with teachers, adults, authorities, though he used them more with peers. So it's weird. And in my thinking, it seems that he uses the skills when it suits him to do so. He smiles when he is happy or pleased with his friends, because it is an expression of his feelings. But he won't smile to greet or communicate with adults. It's a stark difference. Is he motivated to connect with peers? Yes, absolutely. Is he motivated to connect with teachers and other adults? Maybe not. Maybe because they require things from him that are hard, and he knows it and preemptively shuts down.

You made a comment in the Fast Forward thread about communication issues possibly inhibiting the success of therapy and counseling, and we have absolutely seen that with DS. He has not connected with counselors; he dislikes speech therapy; he hates being in required meetings; he disliked going to social skills club. And he doesn't connect and doesn't improve skills.

This is a reading thread after all LOL, so I will connect my thoughts back to reading and say that the comprehension issues that are tied to DS's pragmatics have proven to be much harder to crack than remediating DD13's dyslexia.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

He smiles when he is happy or pleased with his friends, because it is an expression of his feelings. But he won't smile to greet or communicate with adults. It's a stark difference. Is he motivated to connect with peers? Yes, absolutely. Is he motivated to connect with teachers and other adults? Maybe not.

If they were calling it autism, would that change how they decided to handle that? But see on the social communication profiles, he was very different, right? Like he was that RSC profile, yes? What is the way that is handled for RSC? For a really typical ASD, I would have thought you'd have the flip (more paired with adults). 

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

He has not connected with counselors; he dislikes speech therapy; he hates being in required meetings; he disliked going to social skills club.

This is sad and really hard. I wonder if it goes back to that RSC thing? I really don't know. And I don't know what you do about it if it is. I don't remember, but it seemed like some of the profiles the ST were just hopeless on, like they didn't really have anything magical that could poof and make it better. But miracles happen and we can hope, sigh. 

Maybe reread the RSC profile and see if anything jumps out at you? It almost sounds like they're saying if you get the click, they function as WISC/ESC, and if you don't get the click they spiral into negativity. :(  https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=Social Thinking Social Communication Profile

Ok, I'm just reading the RSC thinking and thinking, because I think you could interpret this document in light of the further things people are learning, kwim? So it does say that the worker needs to develop a safe 1:1 relationship. I think some workers jump too fast on that or don't get that. With ds we spent weeks and weeks and weeks, at 2-3 hours a week, pairing ds with his new worker before we put them into significant demands. He's sort of at that point where he will resist and I wanted enough pairing that she could make the demands and know she could get them. But a psych doesn't do that. They just barge in. And the social groups don't do that, kwim? 

Next paragraph it makes the comment they "arer not well tuned in to how people feel..." and I want to connect this to interoception and RDI. Like if you've done everything else, it might be another way to go. They're subtle, quiet, gentle, not demanding, and relational. So if he has interoceptive deficits and doesn't even realize how he HIMSELF feels, then it's very hard to then understand how someone else feels. And if he has non-verbal deficits, then maybe he's missing further the information that would help him get there even when he does have some understanding to know how a person would feel in that situation. 

I don't know, just thinking out loud, like what would be really different, what hasn't been done. I don't think you can go wrong with working on self-awareness via interoception. Maybe an OT at his school would get on board? All the OTs at (local therapy center) are going to, but they haven't bought the materials yet. Mahler is developing online training and any OT or SLP or behaviorist or psych or parent or random person you could get willing to do it who has the time to pair with him and keep it relational and calm could do it. It's actually really FUN and it feeds with the psyche of such a self-absorbed age. He might not give a rip about other people, but he probably gives a rip about himself.

Edited March 5, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

the comprehension issues that are tied to DS's pragmatics have proven to be much harder to crack than remediating DD13's dyslexia.

Yup. And to think that jerk psych who first eval'd ds said I couldn't teach him because teaching decoding was hard. Just gotta shake my head. This comprehension stuff is mystifyingly complex. At least decoding is quantifiable. We've got so many issues/factors involved in comprehension that every time you think you've got the lynch pin there's another piece to consider.

Total aside, but I'm really proud of myself right now about ds' typing. He has now learned DHTNS (half the home row) and has 2 vowels solid (i, u). So he can single finger peck (one left, one right) all the word combinations and prefixes, suffixes, affixes, etc. that you can make with those 2 vowels and 5 consonants. Snazzy, eh? 

So I'm just impatient with excitement to keep adding letters, forming phonograms, and see where this can go. I'm trying to spend 3 days with each new step so that he's like oh yeah, OF COURSE I CAN DO THIS! And I think what I will do is use the Barton phonograms and units (ink, onk, that kind of thing) to work through the spelling words as we add the letters. K is on the bottom row, so once we add that we can type units and then form words with those units. 

We're only working on it maybe 5 minutes a day, but it feels like this huge, huge win if we can get it to work. And he's been playing around with having all his fingers on the keyboard, like he realizes it would be more efficient if he could. For now, I'm super happy with single finger pecking. We can figure out having all the fingers later, lol. 

[kbutton]

20 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I think for ds it needs to be more than a reading goal. It's better to have language goals and carry them over to reading. But they were using the idea that things could be reading goals to deny us language services and hence language under the legal definition of autism. It was absurd.

I think the entire state of Ohio has missed the idea that autism and language issues go together. I don't feel like they really understand this. Our SLP has bent over backwards trying to implement things that would help my older son, but she's not offering the things that people in this thread notice and dig up to work on--not even the individual tools. I feel like there is some kind of perception or training hole in the ozone layer right over the great state of Ohio, lol! 

20 hours ago, Lecka said:

But if you look up the reading level of those story books, they will have a higher reading level.  Their reading level could be 4th grade, easily.  He has trouble with those depending on just how difficult it is.  

I don’t think that makes any sense to deny an autism classification, by saying a language-related goal is a reading goal.  Wow, that is pretty low.  

Lots of these skills are emphasized in Common Core reading. I think that lets them justify doing so, and I think it's just some version of what Ohio educators and professionals think autism is. 😉 

I think there's more than one way to level books, and they take different things into account. I am thinking that Scholastic or someone like that has an article about those differences, and I was thinking that they showed the levels for their books across multiple leveling schemes.

16 hours ago, Storygirl said:

On the way home from school today, DS14 was irritated with me for asking him details about an assignment I knew he was meant to do today as make-up work. He did not want to give more than a yes-no answer and kind of yelled at me for asking questions.

About two minutes later, he volunteered details about what he did in track practice, without me even asking.

I thought about it for a bit. I think that it has more than a little something to do with his theory of mind / perspective taking. He communicates when he wants to express something. But he doesn't communicate for the benefit of connecting with the other person or giving the other person what they need from the interaction.

I think his reticence or trouble with elaboration and expanding written and verbal sentences is related. So it's a social / language issue for him, but not mainly a use of grammar issue. In his case. He understands the skills but he doesn't use them. He does this in general with his social skills. So it may be more social than language for DS. But they are interconnected, really.

I have seen this with people in the extended family (not my kiddo with ASD). I suspect the not really giving the other person what they need is both social and a deficit in language. For instance, if the social motivation of being sure the other person gets what they need from the interaction is missing, then have more elaborate language with phrases, clauses, and connectors would mean that you are monitoring to be sure you are on the same page with that person.

OTOH, the communication issues I've seen IRL that have similar difficulties, such as not really communicating to connect to give people what they need, may or may not involve sentence complexity as much as it does content. It's like the purpose of the conversation does not require them to be sure the information gets where it needs to go, so they don't monitor for that. Like sending something in the mail without a complete address, or sending an incomplete package to the right address. Two different problems that both mean the receiver doesn't get what they need, but the supplier of the information thinks everything is fine because they've mailed a package! 

Spin off--information is relevant only when they want to share it, and only in that moment, and only on their terms...sigh.

 

9 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Yes, I don't know. The speech portion of his IEP evaluation this fall came up with some quirky things. He passed the initial pragmatics testing that the SLP gave him, but she knew from working with him and his documentation in his IEP that he had issues, so she dug in and did other testing. She found that he can identify the social skills and nonverbal communication skills well enough to tick off things in the testing. But practically, he doesn't use them. More specifically, he does not use them when communicating with teachers, adults, authorities, though he used them more with peers. So it's weird. And in my thinking, it seems that he uses the skills when it suits him to do so. He smiles when he is happy or pleased with his friends, because it is an expression of his feelings. But he won't smile to greet or communicate with adults. It's a stark difference. Is he motivated to connect with peers? Yes, absolutely. Is he motivated to connect with teachers and other adults? Maybe not. Maybe because they require things from him that are hard, and he knows it and preemptively shuts down.

I wouldn't be surprised. I have a dynamic kind of like this with some people in my life that have severe ADHD. Your words are hitting a mark with me today relative to how this shows up in my life. 

I am curious if the Interoception curriculum would help. But I am now off track too...

[PeterPan]

https://nerdybookclub.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/the-day-the-universe-exploded-my-head-confessions-of-a-reluctant-reader/  This guy makes the comment that writing is the reverse of reading and describes himself as a reluctant reader. Interesting to think about the implications of that. 

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, kbutton said:

but she's not offering the things that people in this thread notice and dig up to work on

Fwiw it's not like any other SLP I've tried is offering to do this stuff either. Zilch. Zero. They have their pet things, usually things they can prep and do with all their kids with slight modifications. Once you say you want them to become experts on some nuanced issue that they never got taught in grad school, hang it up. When we buy these materials (SKILL Narrative, Interoception, MW/SGM, etc.) we're buying the phd level research of some person who was willing to sit on ONE THING for years upon years, trying to figure it out. The only reason it makes sense to us as homeschoolers is we're so jack of all trades. Think about it, some of us here have taught all the grades and been around. Or we have more typical dc ahead that we're comparing them to. Or we were teachers. We bring these other experiences and pull what we read of someone's research into that. It's the literal standing on shoulders.

What blows my mind is the newer homeschoolers who DON'T have those experiences who are reading what we post here and running with it and making gains. That really amazes me. It's how it should be. I'm just saying it's understandable why someone who was trained in something totally different can't do this stuff, especially for only billing 1 hour a week or whatever. We as homeschool moms compel ourselves to work on this 15, 20, 30, 40, or even more hours a week, so we figure it out.

25 minutes ago, kbutton said:

the levels for their books across multiple leveling schemes.

Yeah, the new thing is "text complexity" and there are books on it. MW has one and Seravallo has one coming out. I'm pretty b&w, like either the kid can do it or he can't, whatever. But yeah, that's out there. Right now with ds it's probably good enough to know just the most pivotal factor, since he's such a mix.

26 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I am curious if the Interoception curriculum would help. But I am now off track too...

The potential for what improving interoception *can* do is amazing.