If you have an amazing writer and stuck with the SAME writing program-what was it?

[Meadowlark]

I'm having a tough time deciding on where to start with writing. I feel like I failed my older kids jumping around trying to find our groove. We never found it. Now I'm starting over with the next crew and want to get off to a solid, strong start. 

I know for sure that WWE is not going to work. IEW seems like a very pricey "what if" that I'm not sure I want to risk.  EIW didn't work for us-the teacher talking to the class drove me batty. I just want something solid that I can stick with-that will keep this kids progressing every year into great writers by the time I send them to high school.

I need something for 3rd. We follow MP and they suggest either Intro to Comp (that goes along with the 3rd grade lit) or IEW'S All Things Fun and Fascinating. Then then in 4th it switches to their classical comp with Fable (which scares the you know what out of me when I look at it). I seriously feel like I'm not smart enough to teach classical comp! Then there's the BJU distance learning too.

So anyway, I'd love to hear ideas, with your reasons, for a writing program that might fit the bill. Thank you.

[freesia]

Well, full disclosure—with my most amazing writer I did not stick with one program. She was born an amazing writer and I used curriculum as tools to move her forward. 

My 8th grader and college freshman are very strong writers. Each had three years of IEW (even IEW recommend not using their checklist after three years).  It gave them a strong background in structuring writing and making it sound good. College freshman is getting As in college writing now with little stress. 

However, I think IEW is better started in fourth grade as a structured program. I do some of it really lightly in third, but it really came more together in fourth. Kids make amazing leaps as they head to fourth. 

 

[EmseB]

Classical Comp is really dead easy to teach and in really bite sized chunks per day. If anything it feels like Fable is too simple after you do it a couple of times through (but my kids have liked each little story and rewriting them to fit each task). Watching the DVDs helps a lot too because you realize, for example, that kids are basically copying an outline in Fable to learn what it looks like; they aren't generating one themselves out of nothing from nowhere.

I have one in Fable and one in Chrea/Maxim right now and they are really not as daunting, IMO, as they seem. We plan on going all the way through, but will probably use MPOA at some point in the upper levels to get some objective outside grading and feedback as they get older.

[nixpix5]

Intro to comp is entirely based on WWE (narration, copywork and dictation) so if WWE won't work them intro to comp won't either. Plus, if you are planning to use the MP lit guides (Farmer Boy, Charlotte's Web, Mr. Poppers Penguins and Paddington) then it might be a bit repetitive for your student especially if you follow lit guide teachings to have your 3rd grader narrate good sentences and copy them. 

IEW ATFF is actually fun and easy to teach. It isn't full IEW, it is intro into some of the basics and a really good foundation for classical writing Fable. Plus MP only schedules it about once per week so it is low pressure for 3rd. 

Don't feel worried at all about teaching classical comp. Seriously, it is really straightforward once you start doing it and I love to see the amazing blossoming in writing that happens when kids start it.

I also 2nd IEW being a really wonderful way to build some solid writing skills. Keep in mind that it is based on classical writing progym though so if you go through the progym your kids will be acquiring all of the same skills just in a different way. 

I have said this before on here but we do classical writing during the school year and then work through 6 of the 8 writing lessons in BJU English 3 during the summer and then do it again with English 4 the next summer. It probably isn't necessary but it makes me feel like I am building in those basics (letter writing, 3 paragraph essay, book report etc).

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, parent said:

 

Is the IEW Student Writing Intensive a prerequisite for ATFF??  When you refer to IEW being wonderful does that include the SWI, or is that with ATFF alone?

ATFF can be done without any other exposure to IEW but my preference is SWI if I had to pick one. Still, I have found alot of value in the themed books, especially for a homeschool who isn't necessarily interested in doing the whole program. My older son did SWI when he was in high school and got alot out of it. My DD has done IEW Myths, Fables and Fairy Tales as a 3rd grader and loves it. One of my 2nd graders worked through half of ATFF so far this year and it has been a pretty good fit for him as well. 

[Calli]

Hello,

If you follow MP generally, then I think you will be just fine with Fable.  I agree with the above poster that it is not nearly as scary as it seems.  Each lesson in Fable lasts for two weeks and the student is working on the same skills all year except with a different Fable each week.  They are never expected to do anything on their own as the entire system is built upon the idea of modeling excellent writing.  You can most definitely teach it!  

On the ATFF note, unless MP has changed their schedule in the last couple of years, they only plan the first 7 lessons.  These lessons include key word outlining.  So the student goes sentence for sentence and picks out the best three words for each sentence and writes those down on the provided outline.  Afterwards they practice telling the story back using only their outline.  As they progress they begin to try to find new interesting words to replace words that might be repeated often in a story.  For example, instead of saying, "said," each time a character speaks, they will replace that with, "exclaimed," or, "replied," or, "cried out."  They can be as creative as they like!  The skills build from there but I have found that the child usually really enjoys the story and finding new ways to tell it. 

This carries over into Fable in that students will again find synonyms for certain words (this is all clearly laid out for you in the lesson).  They will also be outlining, though not on their own.  Then they will retell the story using their synonyms to replace the original sentences and also including an interesting sentence to make the story more vivid in the readers mind.  They never have to make up a story and write it on their own.  The student always has a model to work from. You can go into Fable without ATFF but it is a delightful and slow introduction to the entire process.

HTH!

[Momto6inIN]

7 hours ago, parent said:

 

Is the IEW Student Writing Intensive a prerequisite for ATFF??  When you refer to IEW being wonderful does that include the SWI, or is that with ATFF alone?

At a convention one if the IEW reps explained it to me this way: If you want Andrew Pudewa to teach your child to write, do the SWI followed by the SICC. If you want to teach them yourself, watch the TWSS and either use a theme book or create your own assignments using what you learn about the 9 units in the TWSS. I have done some of all 3 methods with my kids.

We didn't find IEW til a couple years ago, so none of my kids have done the whole program start to finish. But I've done different parts with different ages enough and seen enough progress all around that I'm sold on using the program all the way through for my younger ones, using theme books like ATF&F, Fables Myths & Fairy Tales, and Ancient History in 3rd-5th and SWI and SICC in 6th-8th, then Elegant Essay, Windows to the World, and Writing the Research Paper in high school.

My current 5th grader has thrived on the theme books and is ready to do SWI next year. My current 9th grader did SWI and SICC and was plenty ready to ditch the checklists and learn essays this year and will learn lit analysis next year and research papers after that. My current 11th grader was a mess with writing going into 9th grade and was resistant to using IEW so I created units for him based on what I learned in the TWSS centered around a topic of high interest for him at the time (Literary Lessons from The Lord of the Rings) and his writing got much more organized that year.

I should add - I am not an IEW saleswoman LOL, I just really love the program and it's given me so much confidence as a writing instructor. I always knew how to write well myself, but didn't know how to teach what came naturally and easily to me. I could tell what was good and what needed improvement in their writing, but teaching the process itself was a mystery to me until I found IEW.

[2Peanuts]

I wouldn't say my kids are amazing writers but they are definitely solid writers. Older kiddo (8th grader) is in her 2nd year of IEW writing. She did one year of WWE through WTMA, too. I will say that IEW has done wonders for her. It really breaks down the writing process, giving students a framework within which to figure out their writing. Both my husband & I have been really impressed with the quality of writing she has produced. Her ideas are more organized, her sentence structure varied, and her word choice improved. She did her first year of IEW (SWI-Level B) through IEW and then her second year with Open Tent Academy (the teacher is IEW-certified). Love it!

WWE was ok but it seemed to be geared more toward kids who already have a decent voice & organization in their writing. That wasn't my kid.

My younger kid (4th grader) has autism and reading comprehension has been difficult for us. Still, using the IEW method, I've been able to get him to narrate paragraphs and add in some "dress ups." It's slow-going but he is capable of writing a decent paragraph despite having expressive language disorder. I credit this entirely to the scaffolded approach of IEW. For his lessons, I use the smattering of IEW methodology that I learned from TWSS and apply it to his reading lessons.

Hope this helps! Good luck with your decision!

[Meadowlark]

15 hours ago, EmseB said:

Classical Comp is really dead easy to teach and in really bite sized chunks per day. If anything it feels like Fable is too simple after you do it a couple of times through (but my kids have liked each little story and rewriting them to fit each task). Watching the DVDs helps a lot too because you realize, for example, that kids are basically copying an outline in Fable to learn what it looks like; they aren't generating one themselves out of nothing from nowhere.

I have one in Fable and one in Chrea/Maxim right now and they are really not as daunting, IMO, as they seem. We plan on going all the way through, but will probably use MPOA at some point in the upper levels to get some objective outside grading and feedback as they get older.

Can I ask why you went with MP's Fable and not CAP's? I'm seriously torn between the two! While I love MP and all that I've encountered, too much of it is just a bit dry for me. I need a little variety or something to spice things up a bit. Maybe that's what CAP will do? Idk...

[Meadowlark]

14 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

Intro to comp is entirely based on WWE (narration, copywork and dictation) so if WWE won't work them intro to comp won't either. Plus, if you are planning to use the MP lit guides (Farmer Boy, Charlotte's Web, Mr. Poppers Penguins and Paddington) then it might be a bit repetitive for your student especially if you follow lit guide teachings to have your 3rd grader narrate good sentences and copy them. 

IEW ATFF is actually fun and easy to teach. It isn't full IEW, it is intro into some of the basics and a really good foundation for classical writing Fable. Plus MP only schedules it about once per week so it is low pressure for 3rd. 

Don't feel worried at all about teaching classical comp. Seriously, it is really straightforward once you start doing it and I love to see the amazing blossoming in writing that happens when kids start it.

I also 2nd IEW being a really wonderful way to build some solid writing skills. Keep in mind that it is based on classical writing progym though so if you go through the progym your kids will be acquiring all of the same skills just in a different way. 

I have said this before on here but we do classical writing during the school year and then work through 6 of the 8 writing lessons in BJU English 3 during the summer and then do it again with English 4 the next summer. It probably isn't necessary but it makes me feel like I am building in those basics (letter writing, 3 paragraph essay, book report etc).

Okay, I have quite a few questions-see bolded above.

1. I've always wondered about this. Any idea why MP only schedules it once a week? I also heard they don't teach it the way it's meant to be taught, which confuses me. Seems to me that very little growth would occurr if the student was only doing it one time per week. And what IS the thing that they're doing for that one day?

2. I never heard this before-interesting! I always wondered why Andrew Pudewa was involved with MP and now I know why. Would you mind explaining how they will be acquiring all of the same skills? That part is fuzzy to me.

3. That sounds like something I would do just to cover my bases :-)  Do you find that BJU's type of writing (I have the english 3 manual) is just totally different and useful to stretch the other part of the brain? 

[teachermom2834]

Just jumping in to address MP Fable. I was so intimidated by it but I had started my dd in a MP core at K and really wanted to try to do the program as written (for my own sanity as I tended to jump around with my older kids and I required too much from them sometimes because I wasn't really following a plan). So I jumped into Fable and it just isn't as complicated as it seems. You do it in bite sized chunks and you just meet them where they are. If they need help with a step you help them. We started out with the video lessons but ditched them after a couple weeks because it just wasn't that hard to do on our own. For 5th grade I did put my dd in MPOA for Narrative because I still worried we weren't doing it right, doing enough, etc and she wanted to try an online class. My dd loves the Narrative class but we could have done it on our own following the plans. It just is not that complicated at all. The teacher, while great, is not some wizard that is able to teach this complex program that I could not.  DD wants to continue with the MPOA class for next year but I feel confident enough that I would be comfortable taking her through the next level using the MP plans. 

My older kids did IEW for many years until high school when they got into AP or dual enrollment or other outsourced classes. I wouldn't call them fantastic writers but they are very solid and have smoothly transitioned to college writing. While I am not blown away with the eloquence of the things they write, they are frequently sought after to help their peers construct their papers and they get high marks on written work. So, IEW produced very competent writers here. 

I probably apply what I learned working through IEW to Classical Composition with my dd. I will say that one of the best pieces of advice and one that has stuck with me through what is now my 16th year homeschooling is when Andrew Pudewa says something to the effect that you cannot help them too much with writing. That has been so freeing and proven so true. So, if your Classical Composition student can't produce the outline independently or any other step trips him up, you just help. Model it for them and keep going. Repeat.

[nixpix5]

27 minutes ago, Meadowlark said:

Okay, I have quite a few questions-see bolded above.

1. I've always wondered about this. Any idea why MP only schedules it once a week? I also heard they don't teach it the way it's meant to be taught, which confuses me. Seems to me that very little growth would occurr if the student was only doing it one time per week. And what IS the thing that they're doing for that one day?

2. I never heard this before-interesting! I always wondered why Andrew Pudewa was involved with MP and now I know why. Would you mind explaining how they will be acquiring all of the same skills? That part is fuzzy to me.

3. That sounds like something I would do just to cover my bases :-)  Do you find that BJU's type of writing (I have the english 3 manual) is just totally different and useful to stretch the other part of the brain? 

I am going to answer 1. and 3. because that is easier to answer and then I will post the 2. response separately because it is a bit more detailed. 

So question 1....do you happen to have the MP grade 3 schedule? If not no worries but it helps to see how it is laid out. You are right that they don't complete the whole book . Those exercises directly prepare the students to have a solid foundation moving into classical comp fables but it isn't absolutely necessary to be successful at classical comp fable. ATFF have components that are helpful in doing some of the following...reading a short non fiction passage and building an outline by pulling out keywords. This helps kids start to understand the main idea and most critical elements to summarize information. This key outline is then used for the child to narrate back to you what they read. If their outline is good they can easily retell the whole thing using it. Elocution is brought in as kids are asked to tell it to other members of the family and so forth. This eventually progresses to writing from outlines which happens subtlety. By the time you get to narrative stories kids have learned "banned words" and learned to replace them with more interesting adjectives, adverbs and strong verbs. It works on openers, story sequence elements, who which clauses etc. There is alot crammed into ATFF. MP 3rd ends around leason 7 and partly due to how long it takes to go through some lessons. For example, in week 22 you start lesson 6 Damocles and the King by outlining part 1 and brainstorming, week 23 you continue to work on that same thing with part 2, week 24 still outlining the next part 3 and then in week 25 the child writes section 1, week 26 writes section 2, week 27 writes section 3, week 28 edits all sections, week 29 starts the final draft,  week 30 completes the final draft. So for 2 months they are working on one lesson. It is definitely not for kids that are writing quicker but nothing says you cannot go faster and finish the whole book. We certainly are and my guy is on the spectrum in 2nd grade.

3. BJU...I find the progym to be complete if you carry it through for the long haul. I am not entirely sure we will. I want to, I endeavor to, but you know best laid plans and all...so I just cover all of my bases so that when they take standardized tests through their umbrella school in the here and now they can do it. If they didn't test I might not worry about it because classically trained students in writing excel at the college level in writing. All of these elements fall into place as they go. It is just the progym is a series of exercises and so it might seem a child is slightly behind peers in the early grades but will zoom past them by middle school.

[nixpix5]

52 minutes ago, Meadowlark said:

Okay, I have quite a few questions-see bolded above.

1. I've always wondered about this. Any idea why MP only schedules it once a week? I also heard they don't teach it the way it's meant to be taught, which confuses me. Seems to me that very little growth would occurr if the student was only doing it one time per week. And what IS the thing that they're doing for that one day?

2. I never heard this before-interesting! I always wondered why Andrew Pudewa was involved with MP and now I know why. Would you mind explaining how they will be acquiring all of the same skills? That part is fuzzy to me.

3. That sounds like something I would do just to cover my bases Do you find that BJU's type of writing (I have the english 3 manual) is just totally different and useful to stretch the other part of the brain? 

https://iew.com/help-support/resources/articles/iew-classical

This answers question 2 far more succinctly than I could. Anyone who has taught both programs though can readily see the overlap of the progym in IEW. I would say IEW succeeds at taking the obscure progym that might otherwise scare someone off and makes it accessible to teachers while also hitting some of those more familiar elements of teaching writing. 

Edited to add your question about how they acquire the same skills. That statement is somewhat based on an assumption very few people make it all the way through the progym. I want to send gold medals to homeschool families that do Most people tend to tank around Chreia/Maxim and I feel IEW does a solid job folding in those skills. If you can make it through the progym your child will be far above what IEW brings to the table. If you don't stick with the progym, IEW + Killgallon, or WWS, or another other myriad of great options will develop a solid writer. One thing I did when I first started teaching writing was make a list of goals for my kids by the time they cleared my door for college. That allowed me to see what steps I would need to take to get them there. Writing can feel daunting for sure. There are many ways to get your child ready and one thing we have as homeschoolers is a TON of writing curriculum choices.

Edited February 24, 2019 by nixpix5

[nixpix5]

What in the heck is going on with those giant smiley faces!

they won't let me edit them out. Those things are terrifying 

Edited February 24, 2019 by nixpix5

[Calli]

57 minutes ago, Meadowlark said:

Can I ask why you went with MP's Fable and not CAP's? I'm seriously torn between the two! While I love MP and all that I've encountered, too much of it is just a bit dry for me. I need a little variety or something to spice things up a bit. Maybe that's what CAP will do? Idk...

I know this was intended for the other poster and I am also curious as to her response to see how it compares to my own impression.  I just wanted to jump in and say that we did also try CAP Fable/Narrative.  It was very enjoyable for all of my children.  I had thought that I wanted to switch to it and shelve MP.  We are currently in Chreia/Maxim with MP having completed ATFF thru Narrative.  The biggest differences from what I could tell is that CAP is a lot more fill in the blank style to where MP is a lot  more actual writing.  I can only speak to the Fable/Narrative with CAP because we didn't go further than that with them.  The classical composition program with MP is a lot deeper and richer.  That being said, all of my kids did enjoy CAP very much.  This could be because it was easy.  While CC is not necessarily hard, it does challenge the mind.

With the CC program, your children's imagination could be the spice that you are looking for!  Asking them to come up with a phrase that vividly describes the stars and sky, or giving human characteristics to an inanimate object within their story, etc.  All of these things allow for a lot of creativity.  I get what you are saying about MP being dry though.   I wonder if there is another subject or extra curricular where you could add that, "spice?"  

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, Meadowlark said:

Can I ask why you went with MP's Fable and not CAP's? I'm seriously torn between the two! While I love MP and all that I've encountered, too much of it is just a bit dry for me. I need a little variety or something to spice things up a bit. Maybe that's what CAP will do? Idk...

I know this wasn't intended for me but I feel Callista and I have a similar take on this. I have twins and one is doing ATFF and the other is doing CAP Fable I. It is perfect for his 2nd grade brain. It chunks it in a way that he can easily tackle and makes him feel like his sister who is doing higher level progym stuff. MP Classical Comp I feel is a much more thorough program. It goes deep and kids camp on topics to master them. W&R jumps around BUT I have seen huge gains in my 2nd graders writing with it so I am going to let him go as far as he likes with it. We will probably jump over to MP or CW though at some point for him. 

[Farrar]

I honestly don't think programs create great writers. Obviously students themselves can simply have the drive to turn themselves into great writers. However, I think most of the time teachers do it. Programs guide you, but in the end, a good program (which most of these being discussed seem to be - I don't have experience with all of them) can fail a student and teacher, especially if it's a mismatch or if the teacher doesn't guide with an active, compassionate hand.

[EmseB]

3 hours ago, Meadowlark said:

Can I ask why you went with MP's Fable and not CAP's? I'm seriously torn between the two! While I love MP and all that I've encountered, too much of it is just a bit dry for me. I need a little variety or something to spice things up a bit. Maybe that's what CAP will do? Idk...

My reasoning is probably kind of disappointing, but it's just because that was the first year we started with MP and it was in the core. My big reason for using a box was to simplify my picking and planning of each grade, so my general thought process was that I would use their stuff unless it was problematic. I have two very different kiddos, but CC works for both of them for different reasons. One kid is very much a "get it done" doesn't want frills type, and the other likes the frills more but is so highly distractable that a straightforward, repetitive approach actually helps keep him focused more.

And it's working great for both of them, although it's neat to see how different their writing is even within the same program.

Good luck in what you decide!

[Momto6inIN]

9 minutes ago, Paradox5 said:

I agree with Farrar. From my experience, the kid needs to have some sort of innate talent or no writing program of any kind is going to help. Conversely, the kid with the writer's spark really needs no program. Son 2 never finished any program (and we tried a lot of them) but is a very capable writer. He has never earned less than an A on any college paper so far, and writes prolifically. This isn't to say a program would have helped him but not using one certainly hasn't hurt him.

 I believe even Susan says in WTM that there needs to be a meeting of the method to the student when it comes to writing programs. (I am paraphrasing badly.)

I'm not sure I agree. While it's true that no writing program is ever going to turn an untalented writer into Ernest Hemingway, it is also true that a good program can turn a struggling writer into a competent one and an average writer into a good one. I've seen it happen with my 2nd DS.

[Farrar]

Yeah, I don't really agree either that nothing can help if a student isn't a natural writer. Writing is a skill and an art. Some kids gravitate toward it naturally and are good at it and it doesn't take much to help them grow. But for kids who struggle or who simply don't write naturally right away... I absolutely think hard work and good teaching can turn a struggling writer into a very good one, maybe even a brilliant one. I mean, some of these stories of people who were dyslexic who are now published, accomplished authors are just really inspiring. My point was more that I don't think any particular program will do it. I think it's about the teaching and the interaction that makes good writers.

Which is not to say that if a student struggles more, it's the teacher or parent's fault. I don't mean that. But just that writing, more than any other subject, takes interaction and attention from us. I really believe that.

I also think the question is mistaken in its premise. I understand why some people want to stick with a single math program - math has lots of discrete skills that most students tackle step by step. Writing isn't like that. Even with programs that break down the process, they tend to circle back around. Students attempt the same thing over and over with writing, improving step by step. Unlike something like basic addition, students don't master writing a letter or a story and then move on. Adults and published writers still have more things to learn about those forms. With that in mind, I think hearing from different voices, different programs, different methods, etc. may actually strengthen young writers. I can't imagine it hurts them - again, assuming that you have an active, involved teacher.

[8filltheheart]

7 hours ago, Farrar said:

Yeah, I don't really agree either that nothing can help if a student isn't a natural writer. Writing is a skill and an art. Some kids gravitate toward it naturally and are good at it and it doesn't take much to help them grow. But for kids who struggle or who simply don't write naturally right away... I absolutely think hard work and good teaching can turn a struggling writer into a very good one, maybe even a brilliant one. I mean, some of these stories of people who were dyslexic who are now published, accomplished authors are just really inspiring. My point was more that I don't think any particular program will do it. I think it's about the teaching and the interaction that makes good writers.

Which is not to say that if a student struggles more, it's the teacher or parent's fault. I don't mean that. But just that writing, more than any other subject, takes interaction and attention from us. I really believe that.

I also think the question is mistaken in its premise. I understand why some people want to stick with a single math program - math has lots of discrete skills that most students tackle step by step. Writing isn't like that. Even with programs that break down the process, they tend to circle back around. Students attempt the same thing over and over with writing, improving step by step. Unlike something like basic addition, students don't master writing a letter or a story and then move on. Adults and published writers still have more things to learn about those forms. With that in mind, I think hearing from different voices, different programs, different methods, etc. may actually strengthen young writers. I can't imagine it hurts them - again, assuming that you have an active, involved teacher.

You just wrote the response that I have been thinking since I first read the OP. Different programs have different insights and different strengths/weaknesses.  Being exposed to multiple different perspectives means students are being challenged to learn and master different stylistic skills.

The fundamentals of basic writing structures are the same no matter what a student is writing.  A student must master the underlying skeletal structure that forms all coherent (logical and sequential) writing. After that, everything else is stylistic and fleshing out what they're are writing with their own voice. Form my perspective, helping students develop that voice and imrproving sentence quality is not a  formula (which is how IEW approaches it.)

I don't believe any single program has ownership over "teaching quality writing."  Learning how to write well comes from consistent practice, feedback, rewriting, editing, and incorporating  new technquies with more feedback, more rewriting, more editing, and trying a new genre of writing with more feedback, more rewriting, more editing........and on and on. Yrs of consistent writing practice with feedback on what works and why and what doesn't and why is what leads to helping poor writers (I have had several of them) become articulate writers.

[Targhee]

Not to throw out too much of an argument, but my take is this: If you have an amazing writer, you have an amazing writer.

Either you have stumbled upon a program that clicked sonperfectly with your child’s way of thinking, or your child had naturally writing and communication gifts that they would become an amazing writer even if you chose a horrible program, but either way you lucked out. 😒

You can also have a good program that helps develop an average kid into a good writer.  Programs can help, but programs don’t create amazing writers. Theres much to be said, however, for the art and gift of writing some people just seem to have.

[Targhee]

16 hours ago, Farrar said:

I honestly don't think programs create great writers. Obviously students themselves can simply have the drive to turn themselves into great writers. However, I think most of the time teachers do it. Programs guide you, but in the end, a good program (which most of these being discussed seem to be - I don't have experience with all of them) can fail a student and teacher, especially if it's a mismatch or if the teacher doesn't guide with an active, compassionate hand.

I agree for the most part. I would say both a program and a teacher are guides, but “amazing” writers have the knack. Is it innate? Is it organically derived from experience and environment? A blend of the two? I’m uncertain, but I’m pretty sure it’s neither a program nor a teacher, though they can help in some ways.

[Farrar]

10 minutes ago, Targhee said:

I agree for the most part. I would say both a program and a teacher are guides, but “amazing” writers have the knack. Is it innate? Is it organically derived from experience and environment? A blend of the two? I’m uncertain, but I’m pretty sure it’s neither a program nor a teacher, though they can help in some ways.

My gut agrees with you. But my head is rebelling. I think that culturally we tend to diminish a lot of hard earned skills into being "natural gifts." When students don't display them, we tend to dismiss them as "just not gifted." I don't want to dismiss that some kids just seem to have a knack, a calling, a gift, whatever you want to name it. However, I don't buy that you can't learn those skills and be just as good if not better. Whatever natural talent there is for writing (or music, dance, math, or anything else we tend to crystalize into just having a gift for it), I think it really only ends up amounting to a small portion of the talent we see on display, especially by the time a student is in high school and college.

I think a lot of it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A student learns to read easily, perhaps because of a natural gift. They read a lot. They have good small motor skills - again, perhaps because of a natural propensity. So boom, they write early and reasonably well quickly because of those things. Adults praise them. What a good writer you are! So they write more. And they read more. And those things improve their writing, because practice makes perfect. By the time they're in middle school, everyone is convinced they have a natural talent, which leads to more praise, which leads to more writing. It's a cycle that doesn't stop, but it really only started with a tiny seed of being able to read a little faster than their classmates. Meanwhile, the kid who struggled a bit with reading and writing gets to middle school already thinking they're a "bad" writer. So they write less. They don't try as hard. They don't look for praise from writing. So they don't improve as much and the gap between them grows even more.

[Targhee]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

My gut agrees with you. But my head is rebelling. I think that culturally we tend to diminish a lot of hard earned skills into being "natural gifts." When students don't display them, we tend to dismiss them as "just not gifted." I don't want to dismiss that some kids just seem to have a knack, a calling, a gift, whatever you want to name it. However, I don't buy that you can't learn those skills and be just as good if not better. Whatever natural talent there is for writing (or music, dance, math, or anything else we tend to crystalize into just having a gift for it), I think it really only ends up amounting to a small portion of the talent we see on display, especially by the time a student is in high school and college.

I think a lot of it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A student learns to read easily, perhaps because of a natural gift. They read a lot. They have good small motor skills - again, perhaps because of a natural propensity. So boom, they write early and reasonably well quickly because of those things. Adults praise them. What a good writer you are! So they write more. And they read more. And those things improve their writing, because practice makes perfect. By the time they're in middle school, everyone is convinced they have a natural talent, which leads to more praise, which leads to more writing. It's a cycle that doesn't stop, but it really only started with a tiny seed of being able to read a little faster than their classmates. Meanwhile, the kid who struggled a bit with reading and writing gets to middle school already thinking they're a "bad" writer. So they write less. They don't try as hard. They don't look for praise from writing. So they don't improve as much and the gap between them grows even more.

My dd went to public 1st where they were supposed to be composing paragraphs with good structure. I asked the teacher why the high standard of writing, when many kids seem to be struggling still to grip a pencil, sit still, or remember how to spell high frequency words like “have”? She told me they looked at those who scored best on the 4th grade state wide writing assessments, then went back and looked at the individuals’ writing performance in 1st grade and set standards based on that. 😦 Talk about trying to shove the bell curve... the most stupid basis for achievement standards!  So I completely agree there are problems here.

And as far as “the knack” well, I think you are probably right there was some talent and it reinforced itself. I don’t think it’s something innate that comes without environment or reinforcement.  I suppose what I was trying to say was that most everyone can become a good writer - teachers and programs and other facilitators help.  But can you really teach a student into amazingness? Can you “create” a Dickins or a Mozart or a Michelangelo? I don’t think so.

[Farrar]

18 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

So you have (I have) very bad writers to the point the kid(s) will not even try to write anything, and it is a fight just to get the kid(s) to give me a list of 10 items (like name 10 ice-cream flavors). What do you do? No amount of WWE/WWS or what have you is going to get a kid(s) like that to even want to try to improve. No video, book, or online class will fix that. [Obviously, I'm feeling a lot defeated here so please don't get mad. I am not being snarky.]

To me, that sounds like a learning disability. Working with kids in the classroom on writing - including a lot of kids with learning issues - is part of why I came to believe it's about patiently advancing them and lots of handholding and not about some magic program. I don't know your solution, but some of the kids I taught went on to be really successful down the road, even if they kept needing support all through college.

I think you're absolutely right that no program will fix it. But I do think patiently working with them over time should help. When learning differences are at play, the things kids can achieve can be more limited. Or the timeline for achieving them can feel impossibly long. You just have to be willing to stick with it, I think. And they have to have some level of buy in. That's sort of why I think Brave Writer is a good approach for kids like that - because it focuses on celebrating every step and building up kids' confidences instead of worrying about meeting particular milestones. But I know some people have trouble letting go to that extent.

[ktgrok]

On 2/26/2019 at 11:15 PM, Paradox5 said:

So you have (I have) very bad writers to the point the kid(s) will not even try to write anything, and it is a fight just to get the kid(s) to give me a list of 10 items (like name 10 ice-cream flavors). What do you do? No amount of WWE/WWS or what have you is going to get a kid(s) like that to even want to try to improve. No video, book, or online class will fix that. [Obviously, I'm feeling a lot defeated here so please don't get mad. I am not being snarky.]

Is it the physical act of writing? Like, do they have the same reluctance to copying a list as they do to coming up with a list? (that was me - I am 98% sure I have dysgraphia) In that case, explore typing, and voice to text, and let them give speeches and oral narrations and such for now. 

Or is it the coming up with ideas part? Fear of being wrong? In that case I'd do lots of copywork, fill in the blank, etc.