How to teach personal responsibility and boundaries

[maize]

I'm really struggling to get the concepts of personal responsibility and boundaries across to my 13 year old. Here are some of the issues we are having:

Frequently correcting siblings, including those much younger than him. Telling them they said something wrong, or sang a song wrong, or getting irritated and yelling at them for something. I've explained over and over that he is not their parent or responsible for their behavior and needs to just let things go/let them be wrong.

Being super defensive about everything. For example, I've explained to him many times that the appropriate response if he hurts someone accidentally (say, he's swinging a stick and it hits someone...) is to offer a sincere apology. Instead the best he seems to be able to manage is a very defensive and aggressive sounding "I didn't mean to." Also, anytime I try to explain why his behavior in a given situation was not appropriate he responds with accusations about everyone else's behavior. 

Some of this is normal kid/adolescent behavior but his complete refusal or inability to ever accept personal responsibility for his actions seems outside the norm to me and I am worried that it is not something he will just grow out of. I want to help him understand that in any situation he has control over only his own actions/behavior, that no one else's behavior controls his responses, and that it is OK to accept that he did something wrong/made a mistake and that doing so will help him move forward. I've been trying to present all of this as learning social skills, but...I'm getting nowhere.

Edited February 22, 2019 by maize

[PeterPan]

Remind us, is this is the context of a larger diagnosis?

My ds does the things you're describing (policing others, being very defensive) but he's only 10 and has had the behaviors for years, meaning they're from his ASD and his skewed social thinking. On the policing behaviors, he had no concept of who was in charge, so we had to come down really hard on it, discussing different situations and who was in charge and having no tolerance for it. I think it also stems from sort of a teacher/expert bent, which can be really good if it's reigned in, maybe even a job skill (the ability to explain things).

As far as the defensiveness, I don't know yet. We're there right now. Ds is in weekly counseling and I'm starting to think even the psych doesn't know what she's doing. I was talking with him today about it and he's like oh I don't talk with her, I don't talk with anything, and I don't talk about my problems. So there you go, if he has no plans to talk about his problems then I'm not sure we're getting anywhere. But these are the kinds of problems that, if he can develop that kind of relationship, he could begin to problem solve with a 3rd person. They have a big emphasis on personal responsibility, problem-solving, and self-advocacy. But getting the person to where they want that and are ready for that, that's a different story. Now that my ds is acknowledging he has problems, I think I'm going to sit down and help him list them out, so he has something to talk about when he goes. Might be transformative.

Edited February 22, 2019 by PeterPan

[Pen]

I don’t know!  Hope someone else has the magic answer!

I’d probably take the 13yo out on a one-on-one when no particular strong emotions were involved, and ask “what’s up with ____”  and try to get his own ideas on how to solve it.  That is try to use Ross Greene approach.

[maize]

33 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Remind us, is this is the context of a larger diagnosis?

My ds does the things you're describing (policing others, being very defensive) but he's only 10 and has had the behaviors for years, meaning they're from his ASD and his skewed social thinking. On the policing behaviors, he had no concept of who was in charge, so we had to come down really hard on it, discussing different situations and who was in charge and having no tolerance for it. I think it also stems from sort of a teacher/expert bent, which can be really good if it's reigned in, maybe even a job skill (the ability to explain things).

As far as the defensiveness, I don't know yet. We're there right now. Ds is in weekly counseling and I'm starting to think even the psych doesn't know what she's doing. I was talking with him today about it and he's like oh I don't talk with her, I don't talk with anything, and I don't talk about my problems. So there you go, if he has no plans to talk about his problems then I'm not sure we're getting anywhere. But these are the kinds of problems that, if he can develop that kind of relationship, he could begin to problem solve with a 3rd person. They have a big emphasis on personal responsibility, problem-solving, and self-advocacy. But getting the person to where they want that and are ready for that, that's a different story. Now that my ds is acknowledging he has problems, I think I'm going to sit down and help him list them out, so he has something to talk about when he goes. Might be transformative.

These behaviors aren't new, I've been trying to address them for years.

He has ADHD and anxiety diagnoses, also has intermittent OCD and tic disorder symptoms. He does not have an autism diagnosis but definitely has some autism like traits; I tend to think of him as spectrum-ish--definitely not neurotypical.

We've tried counseling before, he literally shuts down and says nothing. He does that in most situations where he feels put on the spot so I think it is a social anxiety response, kind of a selective mutism. 

I really think anxiety is at the heart of a lot of these issues, an inability to cope with the discomfort of someone doing or saying something that doesn't fit the way he thinks things should be or, even worse, anything vaguely resembling criticism directed at himself.

A common interaction lately involves him getting into power struggles with his four year old sister; when I try to talk to him about he he tells me she is bullying him and I'm like, dude, she's four years old. Walk away!

[PeterPan]

Yeah, it seems to be the perennial problem.

Fwiw, I started giving my ds this broccoli sprout product for the sulforaphane and he's talking more. Like it's crazy. I think they're thinking now is that most likely responders will be people whose symptoms improve when they have fevers, which my ds does, definitely, noticeably does.

We've gotten our progress toggling good interventions that fit the labels (meaning you have to have the right labels) and tackling the underlying physical causes that are making his body more hard to live in. I don't find it to be all one or the other with my ds.

[Storygirl]

I don't know, but I can empathize. DS14 doesn't boss or correct others, but he has other issues with interaction, and constant teaching doesn't seem to improve things. He also doesn't respond to therapy, because he also shuts down and becomes almost mute, when talking to anyone other than immediate family or his closest friends (with them he is talkative). He is very defensive and will attack (verbally) in response to correction. He has social skills in his IEP and works with a SLP. He has attended a social group privately. We worked with a psychologist on some counseling. It's frustrating to not see growth happen.

That's probably not helpful. But maybe it's a little helpful to know it's a problem shared by others.

[Storygirl]

Thinking some more from another perspective, because I was bossy as a child.

First, I'm wondering if when he argues about things, whether he is technically correct. Is he a rule follower?

I was a rule follower, and I thought everyone else should be, and I thought that was the right way to be, and so I thought I was right. And I think I probably WAS right most of the time. And I thought everyone else should be doing things right, as well.

I couldn't understand how I could be the one in the wrong (for bossing), when I was on the right side of the issue.

If that is what you are seeing.... hmmm. Now I don't know what I would say would have helped me. I still have trouble in this area, but I know to keep my mouth shut (most of the time) now. No one taught me. I think the shift is that I can now see that it's okay for me to be convinced I am right about something, but that I can't expect to be able to convince others to see it my way.

I think what might have helped me when I was that age was to be told, "Yes, you are right (or you have a good point, or I see what you mean, or whatever phrase would work for the situation). But sometimes we can't convince other people to think as we do, and we need to let it go." Acknowledging my point of view would have helped me be able to turn away from it, I think.***

I would have felt defensive to be told I was wrong, because I knew I was right.

I didn't have a little brother or sister to boss around (actually, I did, but she was only a year younger, so really like the same age). But I did love to babysit. I got paid to be the boss then. 😃

If it's not related to rule following, that might not apply.

*** It just occurred to me that when I have a disagreement with DH, I will keep arguing my point ad nauseam until he says he understands what I am saying. He doesn't have to agree with me, but I need to know he is listening to me.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Storygirl

[maize]

13 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Thinking some more from another perspective, because I was bossy as a child.

First, I'm wondering if when he argues about things, whether he is technically correct. Is he a rule follower?

I was a rule follower, and I thought everyone else should be, and I thought that was the right way to be, and so I thought I was right. And I think I probably WAS right most of the time. And I thought everyone else should be doing things right, as well.

I couldn't understand how I could be the one in the wrong (for bossing), when I was on the right side of the issue.

If that is what you are seeing.... hmmm. Now I don't know what I would say would have helped me. I still have trouble in this area, but I know to keep my mouth shut (most of the time) now. No one taught me. I think the shift is that I can now see that it's okay for me to be convinced I am right about something, but that I can't expect to be able to convince others to see it my way.

I think what might have helped me when I was that age was to be told, "Yes, you are right (or you have a good point, or I see what you mean, or whatever phrase would work for the situation). But sometimes we can't convince other people to think as we do, and we need to let it go." Acknowledging my point of view would have helped me be able to turn away from it, I think.***

I would have felt defensive to be told I was wrong, because I knew I was right.

I didn't have a little brother or sister to boss around (actually, I did, but she was only a year younger, so really like the same age). But I did love to babysit. I got paid to be the boss then. 😃

If it's not related to rule following, that might not apply.

*** It just occurred to me that when I have a disagreement with DH, I will keep arguing my point ad nauseam until he says he understands what I am saying. He doesn't have to agree with me, but I need to know he is listening to me.

He is...mostly a rule follower. 

I am not trying to convince him he is wrong, mostly I am trying to help him understand that he only has control over his own actions--and that he needs to just let other people be wrong most of the time if he perceives them to be wrong. 

Like this morning when dd4 was singing a song from a tv show and had a few words wrong--he just would not drop the issue and it turned into a ridiculous fight between them because of course she was sure she was right.

When I intervene he turns around and accuses me of hypocrisy because I correct his behavior. I explain that I have a responsibility to teach him good social skills and that is what I am trying to do. He does not have a responsibility to make sure his little sister doesn't mix up the words in a song and it is not appropriate for him to try.

Edited February 22, 2019 by maize

[Pen]

Have you tried things like Inositol which might relate to anxiety, ocd, maybe tics?  (Maybe GABA re tics. ...  “e tics are now gone....it's been a .... to a lower dose of magnesium, B complex, Inositol, Vitamin D3 and zinc.”  The source link got lost)

Edited February 22, 2019 by Pen

[City Mouse]

I had typed out a long post with too many personal details, but thought better of it.

in summary, I have an adult DD With AU diagnosis. She still has difficulty in this area. It has cost her at least one job, and her much younger brother will never have a close relationship with her as she has hurt him too many times. She is slowly getting better, but it has been a very long road. 

Mostly I try to take away the "right" and "wrong" and talk about how her behavior is perceived by standard American culture. That seems to work now, but it has been a long slow process. 

Taking about the unwritten rules of human behavior make sense to her - well that fact that such rules exist make sense and that she isn't able to learn them by observation alone. We made up our own rules, kind of like Gibbs rules on NCiS.

I have found that it is much better talking about an event after it is over and done with and everyone has moved on rather than in the heat of the moment. I will acknowledge to her that she may be "correct" or "right" about a situation but there is more to interacting than just being right. 

But I will admit to being petty sometimes and blatantly allowing her younger brother to do something that she has told him not to do just to emphasis that she is not his parent. 

can you believe that this is the short version of my original post?

[maize]

We've done DNA testing through 23AndMe, I need to go back to his Promethease report and see if I can dig up anything actionable. I also ordered Dante lab's whole genome testing when it was on sale over the holidays but reports from that are likely several months out.

I've got so many irons in the fire dealing with various family members' needs that it is hard to find time go really focus on one individual and sort out what might help--then try stuff and observe whether it does help.

[Pen]

Do multiple people in family share any issues such that working on, say, anxiety, could be a whole family thing?  Supplements and eating approaches, meditating etc?  

Perhaps whole Family approach with:

Raising Human Beings: Creating a Collaborative Partnership with Your Child https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476723761/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_.8iCCbXSAJYPZ

?

 

————

Haven’t read this, but liked her talk during The Quirky seminar:

Peaceful Parent, Happy Siblings: How to Stop the Fighting and Raise Friends for Life (The Peaceful Parent Series) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399168451/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_

 

[Storygirl]

Maize, I get it. That sounds like the kind of thing that DS does. He doesn't claim hypocrisy, but he does scoff at and rail against the things we are trying to teach him, claims what we have said is stupid, mutters complaints under his breath, and outright argues. He sometimes says we are "targeting" him and "you don't say/do this to the other kids." And so on, constantly. He sometimes will ask "why" but then won't listen and just responds with arguing.

The circumstances that prompt these exchanges can vary. Sometimes we are addressing when he has breached a boundary with a sibling, and sometimes he responds this way just when we ask him to do something that he doesn't want to do. He is also "kind of" a rule follower, though I would never have said that when he was younger. He is often oppositional and has a diagnosis of ODD on top of his list of other labels, though I would say that is minor ODD and that his other issues contribute to his not comprehending or caring how his responses come across socially.

DS has trouble with theory of mind / perspective taking, so he only sees things from his point of view, and it makes it really hard to get him to consider any other way of thinking when he is in the moment. We do talk things over in quiet moments, as well, and he can be more receptive (though not always) to listening. But it doesn't change the behavior for the next time.

He has not done this with teachers this year, but he did tell teachers in his previous school when he thought things were dumb or stupid. It was a tiny private school, and the teachers were able to brush off his comments. They would tell me, "I tell him he is a pessimist," and say he was not afraid to speak his mind, etc. They realized it was not a good character trait, but they were able to take it in stride and not be offended.

Personally, I can feel offended, and I have to work on managing my responses. I worry about him in future jobs and taking to superiors in this way, and that they are not as likely to be able to brush it off or work on not taking offense. It is a real concern (although one of our other real concerns is his clamming up, which will be an obstacle in the workforce and in obtaining work, as well).

I do talk to him about being socially appropriate. I sometimes talk about it being necessary to express ourselves with respect to people who are in charge of us, like parents, teachers, and bosses. Because, as much as dealing with this constantly wears me out and discourages me, I worry even more that this tendency could lead to some real problems down the line.

DS has qualified with disability for vocational rehabilitation and will be starting a program to scaffold job skills over the next three summers, when he is 15, 16, 17. I so hope that this will help him.

I realize that some of these kind of things can sound like typical teenage behavior when typed out like this, and typical teens can be disrespectful and argue with parents, and so on. But this is entrenched in a different way for DS. It is entangled with his trouble with social understanding, and that has been a hard nut to crack.

 

[Storygirl]

I will say, since meds have been mentioned, that when DS is on his ADHD meds -- and he also takes something to help his tics -- that he is significantly easier to communicate with and interact with. It doesn't improve his social understanding, but he is more able to listen, I think, and less irritable and reactive.

[maize]

51 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

 

I realize that some of these kind of things can sound like typical teenage behavior when typed out like this, and typical teens can be disrespectful and argue with parents, and so on. But this is entrenched in a different way for DS. It is entangled with his trouble with social understanding, and that has been a hard nut to crack.

 

Thank you for the entire post, but especially for this last bit. I was afraid my description would come across as just normal teen stuff, it helps to know that there are other parents who have experience with the NOT normal extent these issues can take with some kids.

Yes, there is definite difficulty with social understanding. It is a really hard issue to figure out any kind of effective teaching approach for.

Does your son have an ASD diagnosis? I keep wondering if I should be seeking further evaluations for my son because he has so many spectrum-ish characteristics. We've done neuropsych evals, which is where he got the labels that he does have...I wonder sometimes though if I should take him somewhere else for evaluations.

Time and energy to even research though are scarce commodities in my life.

He attends a small project based school two days a week and seems to do well there. I don't know what we will do for high school, he definitely needs more than I can give him at home.

[maize]

56 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I will say, since meds have been mentioned, that when DS is on his ADHD meds -- and he also takes something to help his tics -- that he is significantly easier to communicate with and interact with. It doesn't improve his social understanding, but he is more able to listen, I think, and less irritable and reactive.

We tried ADHD meds but that was when his tics became bad and we decided to stop them. We've not had good results in general with medication in this family and I'm hesitant to just keep trying new things. I really hope the DNA testing points us towards some answers.

[Storygirl]

22 minutes ago, maize said:

Does your son have an ASD diagnosis? I keep wondering if I should be seeking further evaluations for my son because he has so many spectrum-ish characteristics. We've done neuropsych evals, which is where he got the labels that he does have...I wonder sometimes though if I should take him somewhere else for evaluations.

Time and energy to even research though are scarce commodities in my life.

He attends a small project based school two days a week and seems to do well there. I don't know what we will do for high school, he definitely needs more than I can give him at home.

No ASD diagnosis. Yet. The neuropsych diagnosed NVLD (plus some) just as he was turning 10 and thought no for autism but did not run full autism testing. We suspect that a full evaluation by someone who is an expert would find that he meets the criteria. We've been talking over the possibility of new evaluations for a long time and have stewed over and over the pros and cons. Really the only con at this point is the cost and hassle of arranging for the testing. Which is not a huge hurdle, except that psychologically for me it's been hard to pull the trigger when we've already been told no. But my gut says yes, so we will probably do it.

I have a hard time balancing everything, and I have about half the number of children as you!

20 minutes ago, maize said:

We tried ADHD meds but that was when his tics became bad and we decided to stop them. We've not had good results in general with medication in this family and I'm hesitant to just keep trying new things. I really hope the DNA testing points us towards some answers.

We had increased tics when he started meds, too. It took a lot of adjusting to find the right med and dose for DS. His tics wax and wane generally, and at one more intense stage we added a second med that the doctor said can help tics and ADHD. The combo works well for him, and his tics have been minimal for awhile. They do increase when he feels anxious. They were bad enough on the first med that we tried that we could not have continued on that one. I hope you figure out some answers.

[Pen]

Magnesium?  

[maize]

I'm listening to the Siblings Without Rivalry book someone mentioned and to another book about teaching social skills to ASD kids. And I ordered some supplements based on 23andMe testing--hydroxocobalamin (a form of B12) seems to be a primary recommendation for those with COMT mutations, which all of is apparently have.

Edited February 24, 2019 by maize

[PeterPan]

On February 22, 2019 at 6:59 PM, maize said:

We've done DNA testing through 23AndMe

You can download the raw data and run it through www.knowyourgenetics.com 

10 hours ago, maize said:

those with COMT mutations

Yup, that's what I'm expecting. But also look at the VDR and TPH2 genes. They should be listed in the pdf the KYG site generates. It's free and fast. Goes into the forms on the b12, etc. too. Fwiw, b12 sort of balances everything else because of the methyls issue. It's important, sure, but you can have an MTHFR defect on top of that COMT. So then it gets hairy because you've got bigger players and smaller players and are trying to get ALL of them up and balanced. Sorta like juggling torches and knives at the same time.

Edited February 24, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

On February 22, 2019 at 6:59 PM, maize said:

I've got so many irons in the fire dealing with various family members' needs that it is hard to find time go really focus on one individual and sort out what might help--then try stuff and observe whether it does help.

Yeah, that's why I'm saying run the raw data through the KYG site. Doesn't take long, and it kicks out a table with just some of the really important ones for our purpose. 

Someone had mentioned lithium in another thread. You probably know this, but apparently lithium and b12 balance. I personally don't take an isolated b12 right now. There's a marker you can see with blood that should be elevated (homocysteine) if the b12 is an issue. I take a multivitamin with various Bs that doesn't aggravate my MTHFR+ COMT issues and it probably has a little b12. I'm assuming that's why I have a surges of grey, sigh. Anyways, I was more concerned about the potential for elevated homocysteine (which my doc elected not to check) than I was about the b12 even. That's sort of your long-term health, a silent killer kind of thing. And I tend to have unusually low cholesterol, especially the good kind, which I think goes with that elevated homocysteine, low b12 gig. And my thought was if you run labs, then you know where you're at and can track absorption and whether the intervention is working. They can run lithium at the same time btw. You can also order blood labs privately through healthcheckusa.com 

Edited February 24, 2019 by PeterPan

[maize]

45 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, that's why I'm saying run the raw data through the KYG site. Doesn't take long, and it kicks out a table with just some of the really important ones for our purpose. 

Someone had mentioned lithium in another thread. You probably know this, but apparently lithium and b12 balance. I personally don't take an isolated b12 right now. There's a marker you can see with blood that should be elevated (homocysteine) if the b12 is an issue. I take a multivitamin with various Bs that doesn't aggravate my MTHFR+ COMT issues and it probably has a little b12. I'm assuming that's why I have a surges of grey, sigh. Anyways, I was more concerned about the potential for elevated homocysteine (which my doc elected not to check) than I was about the b12 even. That's sort of your long-term health, a silent killer kind of thing. And I tend to have unusually low cholesterol, especially the good kind, which I think goes with that elevated homocysteine, low b12 gig. And my thought was if you run labs, then you know where you're at and can track absorption and whether the intervention is working. They can run lithium at the same time btw. You can also order blood labs privately through healthcheckusa.com 

KYG gives me this chart followed by a really long list of supplements:

[maize]

There's a lot of red on that chart, and I am sure it is contributing to ds's difficulties (by contrast, the only homozygous red traits on mine are the two MTRR alleles that are homozygous on his).

I don't feel like I am going to be able to figure out what to do with it on my own. But finding a medical provider who has the experience to make sense of all this seems equally unlikely. sigh.

I can discuss lab testing with the NP he has been to before, I think he would at least be open to ordering tests.

I've been eyeing the online masters degree in personal genomics offered by Johns Hopkins. If I could come up with the funds I would jump to enroll myself.

[PeterPan]

Take it one nibble at a time. You don't have to learn everything at once. Take one gene, one mutation, wrap your brain around it. Then move on to the next. So like on the MTHFR, you're right, there's a lotta green there, which is great. I'm just comparing it to mine, and like on his C677T he's AG, which she's flagging as light green (all good) even though it's mixed. Mine is CT, so I'm mixed but in a bad way I guess, sigh. The other thing that's interesting is that you have VDR Fok *and* VDR Taq and you're red on both of them. Is your 23andme recent or older? I'm just curious because ours only had the Tax. Anyways, D might be a good, easy, cheap place to start. You can run labs for the vit D first if you want. My doc (just a very normal doc, nothing special/fancy) says vit D is a mood stabilizer. So that Vit D is super easy to decide to make a move on. And doing that would give you a couple weeks to work through the rest, kwim? Like I've seen people who go to a doc and get handed a slew of stuff to take. To me, if you take one thing, get it happy, then work on the next gene and decide what to do with that, kwim?

And, fwiw, the vit D helps process some of the b vitamins. So starting Bs, even if you need them, could be kind of out of order. But if you maybe got some labs that you thought were warranted by genetics and then started adding things, one at a time, you'd know what each thing is doing and whether it's making a difference. That's how we approached it, one thing at a time. So with ds it's very clear what is working, how it's working, and why it's imperative he take it. It wasn't a guess. But that was just one thing at a time, nibbling at it.

Yes, there's some move to bring genetics and nutrigenomics into the mental health field, but it's really fledgling. I haven't seen anything I thought was really trustworthy. I think a lot of people are just trying to figure it out and I'm trying to figure it out. And I'm not gonna doubt my own common sense and ability to see my child and know what stuff is doing and defer to some (sorry, I'm not nice) chiropractor or MD or whatever. And I've seen 'em all wanting our money. And I don't trust them. If they think as hard as I do, sure let's have this conversation. But I've seen a lot of STUPID STUFF being proposed by these people too. They are NOT INVESTED in getting it right. And I don't have to solve everyone, only my one dc's situation. 

Rant over.

So yeah, that Vit D is a really easy starting point. I would give it two weeks on the supplements while you research to decide your next step. And I would take it with a K2 supplement. this is the K2 I use https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Vitamin-K-2-100-Capsules/dp/B0013EJ5QM/ref=sr_1_9?keywords=k2&qid=1551032211&s=gateway&sr=8-9&th=1  K2 is supposed to be produced by the gut and improves absorption. If you don't take it, the vit D can float around messing with your calcium, dumping minerals here and there, causing problems. K2 is pretty important. And as far as the D, well I use a boring oil-based gel-cap, nothing fancy. (vitamin shoppe, now, whatever is handy) I've had labs and my numbers were good, moods good, everything good, at 10k IU a day during the summer. Crazy, eh? In the winter I'm taking 15k a day. So as far as dose, I'm saying it can need to be higher than you think and to run bloodwork or look at symptoms and decide. We've had other threads where people have talked about their lab levels and symptoms and people seem to need to be on the high side sometimes. 

Those COMT defects I think basically mean he's not going to tolerate dumping tons of methyls on him. So he's not necessarily going to go low (MTHFR defects), but when you flood his system (say with ADHD meds or a lot of chocolate or caffeine or citrus) those levels will go up and cause symptoms. The Vit D uses methyls to do its gig, so getting that up will help stabilize. So the D may be a small thing but it could make a profound difference. 

You need to take the Vit D first thing in the morning btw. Like don't go taking it at night and create insomnia, mercy. 

Can you search your promothease or raw data for his TPH2 results? TPH2 gene converts tryptophan to 5HTP which then leads to melatonin and serotonin. So you get these profiles with insomnia and anxiety and the TPH2 gene turns out to be defective. Easily treatable and the 5HTP also uses up excess methyls. So then you can get a time release 5HTP                                             Natrol 5-htp Time Release Tablets, 200mg, 60 Count                                        and suddenly his methyl levels are stable, boom. For us, that time release version lasts 12 hours, so we dose morning and night, 12 hours apart. But see if you can find those TPH2 results and see what they say.

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Did you see the KYG chart on COMT V158M and VDR Taq status for deciding type of b12?

Edited February 24, 2019 by PeterPan

[HeatherBaloo]

Wanted to add that I have a boy like this also. We don't have any official diagnosis or labels. Blame-shifting, not taking responsibility, anger, etc. I started laughing when I read what PeterPan's son said about his psych, cause its exactly what my son would say. Its actually been a real problem this year with communication with his private school teacher, cause he spins everything differently depending on who hes talking to. 

[PeterPan]

14 hours ago, HeatherBaloo said:

Blame-shifting, not taking responsibility, anger, etc. I started laughing when I read what PeterPan's son said about his psych, cause its exactly what my son would say. Its actually been a real problem this year with communication

And you know what's sad, is I DON'T KNOW who the person is who could help with this. I mean, we have so many fires going, so many plates spinning (and it sounds like you do too with your other dc and the SLDs, etc.) that some things move down the priority list. But if the psych isn't able to handle the language deficits and get the kid there, then is an SLP? Someone else? I wise sage? I mean, dude, I actually have this theory that I should hire some male ABA workers for my ds this summer and just go please model manhood. Like he sees one good man, but he needs to see more. And some men talk more and some less.

Oh dear, what was I watching? Oh it was Good Doctor! So on a recent episode, the doctor mentor dude with cancer is taking his medical marijuana and Shawn decides to try it along with him. Eventually they're both stoned (it's a tv show, Shawn has autism, they're exploring), and the doc is like "When men are drunk they share their feelings!" and Shawn is like ok, you're stoned so are you going to share your feelings now? LOL Eventually Shawn has a breakdown and realizes his feelings, but I don't think marijuana is probably the BEST way to help our boys get there.

THAT was an utter rabbit trail.

In other words, welcome to the boards and I'm there with you. If you figure out the person, let me know. Maybe poetry? Some men read poetry to explore their feelings and put words to them. Hopefully it's going to happen with our phase 2 interoception work. The curriculum finally came. I had done phase 1 tasks myself informally with him, so I want to run through phase 1 quickly with the materials and then begin phase 2 where they pull it together. You have to be self-aware in the moment to stop, acknowledge what you're feeling, and then problem solve it with good choices. 

[PeterPan]

Fwiw, one of my ideas had been to use the "problem" component of story grammar (narrative language intervention) to explore the idea that there are problems in literature, that we have problems, etc. So literature could be another, lower stress way to get there. 

I suppose if I were smart I would google "picture books for kids with problems" and tons would pop up, lol. There's a whole movement now with SEL (social emotional learning) and using literature for that.