After WWE3, Intro to Composition or CAP's Writing & Rhetoric?

[mommysanders]

DS8 (2nd grade) is currently finishing up WWE3 this year, and I'm starting to plan for next year. I know he's a bit ahead in writing curriculum, so I'm not in a rush to push him to something too advanced. In The Well-Trained Mind, it suggests continuing with narration and dictation, and I see it recommends a one-year curriculum called Introduction of Composition by Memoria Press. Then I also see a lot of people (including TWTM) recommending CAP's Writing & Rhetoric Book 1 on Fables. For anyone who is willing to share their thoughts...

I assume I should pick one or the other out of these choices, and not both? And which one is best? Should I plan to do Intro to Composition for next year (3rd grade) and then CAP in 4th grade? Would I then stick with the CAP books from then on? What did other's do after WWE3, especially with a younger child?

I'm not a writer and would prefer something that holds my hand, which is why I love the scripted format of WWE. I'm hoping to find a similar hand-holding approach going forward.

[desertflower]

I do both WWE/WWS and w&r fables with my children. I just skip any redundancy like copywork.

I never tried memorial press.

I like w&r because I think it will lead the student to become persuasive writers. Like okbud said it is visual appealing and open and go. It also has some religious content in it.  at least in book 2 it does.

Hth

[Meadowlark]

Ooo I'm totally listening in on this because I'm making the very same decision (and just posted about it!) The only difference is my rising 3rd grader has not done WWE and is not ahead of the game. We do follow MP and while I'd like to just stick with their recommendations, I'm looking at CAP as well. So many people say that it's just easier to teach. But, MP has responded to the call of "heeeelp" from homeschoolers and now provide a help DVD for teaching past Fable. They also have online courses in writing but will run $500 or so. I know virtually nothing about ATFAF so I might try to figure out what that's about too. But, I can't wait to hear what everyone says here.

[PeterPan]

I'm old school, so I still like Writing Tales... 

[Elizabeth86]

I'm  making the same decision.  I have an upcoming 3rd grader with no writing  background.  I am really drawn  to mp these days and I am really interested in  introduction  to composition especially since it ties into the lit guides we will be using, but I am more drawn to cap so, idk. I am  not at drawn to iew, but still have it on my mind. Also, just feeling really nervous because he will be 7 for the first 2 full months of school, he is a very young 3rd grader.  Sigh.  I think I will do mp intro to composition for 3rd and then start CAP for 4th, BUT the mp dvd's sway me toward choosing mp though.  

Edited February 23, 2019 by Elizabeth86

[AmandaVT]

I loved CAP Fables. DS did as well. We are doing IEW through a coop this year and I hate it, comparatively speaking. We'll be returning to CAP next year. I think it's a very well laid out program.

[Elizabeth86]

On 2/21/2019 at 4:04 PM, mommysanders said:

DS8 (2nd grade) is currently finishing up WWE3 this year, and I'm starting to plan for next year. I know he's a bit ahead in writing curriculum, so I'm not in a rush to push him to something too advanced. In The Well-Trained Mind, it suggests continuing with narration and dictation, and I see it recommends a one-year curriculum called Introduction of Composition by Memoria Press. Then I also see a lot of people (including TWTM) recommending CAP's Writing & Rhetoric Book 1 on Fables. For anyone who is willing to share their thoughts...

I assume I should pick one or the other out of these choices, and not both? And which one is best? Should I plan to do Intro to Composition for next year (3rd grade) and then CAP in 4th grade? Would I then stick with the CAP books from then on? What did other's do after WWE3, especially with a younger child?

I'm not a writer and would prefer something that holds my hand, which is why I love the scripted format of WWE. I'm hoping to find a similar hand-holding approach going forward.

Can I ask what you are using for grammar? That's the other subject I just can't  decide on.

[ChrisB]

We do WWE1-3 w/MCT Island along side #3 then Treasured Conversations (8filltheheart's) w/parts of MCT Town & Voyage then WWSkill 1 & 2 possibly 3.  Some Killgallon for practice on creating good sentences and cross curriculum writing in the latter years.  We've also dabbled a bit in IEW for some story sequence structure, etc. but not full-time.

ETA: No experience with CAP, but I've heard good things. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by ChrisB

[mommysanders]

OKbud, thank you! That link to CAP's progymnasmata explained was very helpful. I really identify with this line of thought where a student should be shown/taught something done well before being expected to produce something themselves. I also like the idea that CAP seems to be a little more hand-holding. So now I'm wondering...

1. Is 3rd grade a good time to start CAP W&R Fable, or is it too soon? My DS will have completed WWE 1-3, and I am not sure he really needs WWE4 so.... is this the next logical thing for him?

2. Would you recommend continuing with the CAP series? Or should I have him hop back to WWS in a couple years?

[mommysanders]

13 hours ago, desertflower said:

I do both WWE/WWS and w&r fables with my children. I just skip any redundancy like copywork.

I never tried memorial press.

I like w&r because I think it will lead the student to become persuasive writers. Like okbud said it is visual appealing and open and go. It also has some religious content in it.  at least in book 2 it does.

Hth

 Thanks! So did you do W&R for a year and then go back to WWS? I'm just wondering when/if I would jump back to WWS. I loved WWE, so I assume I will like WWS. But sounds like W&R is also a good series, and I probably wouldn't do both... right?

[mommysanders]

3 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

Can I ask what you are using for grammar? That's the other subject I just can't  decide on.

Sure. We have been using FLL 1-3, and it's a very good program and compliments WWE nicely. He will be doing FLL 4 next year, but I don't know what after that.

[desertflower]

So I am no expert. We are in the beginning of our journey,  so we may be doing bit much, but I don't want to miss out on anything. Writing and how to communicate is very important to me.

My son is doing wws 1 and w&r book 2 simultaneously. My dd is doing both wwe 2 and w&r fables simultaneously. 

In my opinion, both are very different programs. I see us doing both simultaneously in the long run as welll..

Also, wws is very different from wwe. Don't get me wrong, one needs the training from wwe to do wws, but I feel wws is very different.

Like your son, mine was ahead in WWE as well.

I started my son on fables when he was 7.

This may sound like I'm pushing my children, but if I had the time for them to do it I took it. I knew eventually I wouldn't have the time to teach as much once my youngest turned 6.  I teach 3 now and we have slowed down a lot in LA. I mean my son did fables 2-3 years ago and we just started book 2! 

If your child can do it now, I don't see why not. I am still in my child bearing years and u never know what life will bring you. Not planning on having another child though. 😆

There's a schedule that someone recommended once. I think it was 2 weeks wwe and then 1 week of fables? Or they did fables on fridays? Or wwe 3 times a week and fables 2 times a week? Something like that.

Hope this helps.

[Elizabeth86]

6 hours ago, mommysanders said:

Sure. We have been using FLL 1-3, and it's a very good program and compliments WWE nicely. He will be doing FLL 4 next year, but I don't know what after that.

Thanks.  I was considering FLL.  I Have not taught grammar formally yet.  He knows what a noun, verb, adjective adverb is from doing mad libs stories, but that's it.  From what I understand,  I should be able to jump in at FLL 3, would you agree?

 

[Meadowlark]

17 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

Can I ask what you are using for grammar? That's the other subject I just can't  decide on.

 

It sounds like you're doing a bit of MP, so are you doing Latin? As a former 6th grade reading/l.a. teacher, I am loving the way Latin is teaching grammar very gently to my current 2nd grader. MP schedules something called grammar recitation starting in 3rd, and from the samples, it looks like a no-nonsense, streamlined way to teach grammar. I tell you, the kids in my district learned "grammar" and parts of speech every year until 6th grade, and yet they came to me not even knowing what an adjective was. So, something is amiss. I'm trying this Latin/recitation approach this time around.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Meadowlark

[Elizabeth86]

1 hour ago, Meadowlark said:

 

It sounds like you're doing a bit of MP, so are you doing Latin? As a former 6th grade reading/l.a. teacher, I am loving the way Latin is teaching grammar very gently to my current 2nd grader. MP schedules something called grammar recitation starting in 3rd, and from the samples, it looks like a no-nonsense, streamlined way to teach grammar. I tell you, the kids in my district learned "grammar" and parts of speech every year until 6th grade, and yet they came to me not even knowing what an adjective was. So, something is amiss. I'm trying this Latin/recitation approach this time around.

So glad you asked! I'm not sure.  I like the idea of it, but I can't get a good feel for what a days work would look like.  I'm a bit intimidated by latin and if it takes up too much time I just can't.  My 3rd grader is my oldest.  I will have a 1st grader, a wild, crazy, demanding 3 almost 4 year old and a 1.5 year old next school year so...yeah I'm feeling crazy just teaching the basics to my boys, I'm not sure I can do latin even though I would love to.

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

So glad you asked! I'm not sure.  I like the idea of it, but I can't get a good feel for what a days work would look like.  I'm a bit intimidated by latin and if it takes up too much time I just can't.  My 3rd grader is my oldest.  I will have a 1st grader, a wild, crazy, demanding 3 almost 4 year old and a 1.5 year old next school year so...yeah I'm feeling crazy just teaching the basics to my boys, I'm not sure I can do latin even though I would love to.

There is no need to start Latin that young. I find the opposite approach easier. I teach my kids English grammar and that makes it so that they can understand how grammar works in foreign languages. 5th or 6th grade is a good time to start gentle introduction if you want to start early. 7th is a great age to jump right in.  With Latin you can start later and find yourself ending up in the exact same place as people who start earlier bc Latin grammar becomes quite complex and without an understanding of how the language works, they stall.

Edited February 23, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

There is no need to start Latin that young. I find the opposite approach easier. I teach my kids English grammar and that makes it so that they can understand how grammar works in foreign languages. 5th or 6th grade is a good time to start gentle introduction if you want to start early. 7th is a great age to jump right in.  With Latin you can start later and find yourself ending up in the exact same place as people who start earlier bc Latin grammar bc quite complex and without an understanding of how the language works, they stall.

This is fantastic information. Thank you for saying this. It is what my gut has always told me but I have jumped on board early Latin instruction and find it hard to fit in and around our other cores. I feel like this lets me off the hook from feeling guilty if we don't get to it. 

[nixpix5]

Writing and Rhetoric Fables I has been a total blessing for my 7 year old this year. He loves it and I have seen his writing really begin to mature this year. The exercises are fun and can be broken up so that they don't feel cumbersome. It is not repetitive but does come back and practice skills over; it is just done in such a way that doesn't feel laborious. I REALLY love it.

[Meadowlark]

4 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

So glad you asked! I'm not sure.  I like the idea of it, but I can't get a good feel for what a days work would look like.  I'm a bit intimidated by latin and if it takes up too much time I just can't.  My 3rd grader is my oldest.  I will have a 1st grader, a wild, crazy, demanding 3 almost 4 year old and a 1.5 year old next school year so...yeah I'm feeling crazy just teaching the basics to my boys, I'm not sure I can do latin even though I would love to.

Just popping back on to give you an idea of how Latin might fit into your day. First, we do right away in the morning. I got that advice from a seasoned MP user and think it's a wise move. The "lesson" is really very painless at this age. Prima Latina is very gentle, even for this mom who has never studied Latin in her life. I too was scared of it, but so far, so good. So on Monday, I pop in the DVD and the MP teacher teaches the lesson. Then, he goes back to the table and writes the new vocab with the translations and the practical Latin saying. That's it.  Tuesday I may flash his previous vocab words as a review, then he does workbook 2 with minimal guidance. The next day I review with him maybe the other half of the vocab (because by now we have a lot!) or the practial Latin sayings and another vocab sheet (identifical to day 1). Thursday is the second workbook page and more review with me-maybe this day I review the Latin prayers. Friday is lighter with another vocab sheet. That's it! 20 minutes maybe?

The benefits that I'm seeing are this-my son thinks it's pretty cool to learn a new language. But beyond that, I see his wheels turning in a very critical thinking kind of way. He's learned about nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, and prepositions and knows them cold. That was never very important to me in the past (and it's still not now-I think there's plenty of time) but since it was so effortless to learn it alongside of Latin, I'm happy he knows it. It just comes naturally. They learn that the Latin nouns end in a, so here's what a noun is in english type of thing. Grades 3 and 4 will be Latina Christiana, more gentle intro. But by 5th (first form), he will already know over 50 Latin words and a bunch of other stuff (that we haven't gotten to yet) and I can only imagine how helpful that will be as Latin gets a little more complicated. So, while it's definitely not necessary, I think MP views it as training the brain early and developing those critical thinking skills from the get go. But, an older child probably could jump in with First Form at grade 5 or 6 and do just fine too. HTH!

[Noreen Claire]

Because no one else has mentioned it, I'll ask if you've considered Killgallon? My 4th grader just finished WWE3 (we started late) and is now doing Sentence Composing for Elementary. We do each exercise orally, and he copies one sentence out when we finish, his choice. We will do Sentence Composing and Paragraphs for Middle School next year (5th), and then he will move into WWS for 6th. SWB recommends Killgallon here.

You should be able to jump right in to FLL3 with no issues. We've done FLL1-4, and each starts with the assumption that you might not have done the previous books.

FWIW, we started Latin using Little Latin Readers in 2nd grade. I've found that they are actually gently reinforcing the grammar we've learned in FLL. We spend maybe 15 minutes per day on Latin, 4 days/week.

ETA: I just saw that ChrisB did already mention Killgallon. Sorry, was reading on my phone and missed that.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Noreen Claire
blah.

[mommysanders]

7 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

There is no need to start Latin that young. I find the opposite approach easier. I teach my kids English grammar and that makes it so that they can understand how grammar works in foreign languages. 5th or 6th grade is a good time to start gentle introduction if you want to start early. 7th is a great age to jump right in.  With Latin you can start later and find yourself ending up in the exact same place as people who start earlier bc Latin grammar becomes quite complex and without an understanding of how the language works, they stall.

I have been wondering about latin, too. This is good to hear, especially since we are trying to focus on Spanish right now, and I'm not overly eager to start Latin. I do want to cover Latin at some point though.

[mommysanders]

16 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

Thanks.  I was considering FLL.  I Have not taught grammar formally yet.  He knows what a noun, verb, adjective adverb is from doing mad libs stories, but that's it.  From what I understand,  I should be able to jump in at FLL 3, would you agree?

 

I think you can start out trying FLL3, and if you get stuck, just spend a few days covering whatever he's stuck on. But FLL3 goes over concepts from FLL1-2 as a review. So you won't miss anything.

[mommysanders]

2 hours ago, Noreen Claire said:

Because no one else has mentioned it, I'll ask if you've considered Killgallon? My 4th grader just finished WWE3 (we started late) and is now doing Sentence Composing for Elementary. We do each exercise orally, and he copies one sentence out when we finish, his choice. We will do Sentence Composing and Paragraphs for Middle School next year (5th), and then he will move into WWS for 6th. SWB recommends Killgallon here.

You should be able to jump right in to FLL3 with no issues. We've done FLL1-4, and each starts with the assumption that you might not have done the previous books.

FWIW, we started Latin using Little Latin Readers in 2nd grade. I've found that they are actually gently reinforcing the grammar we've learned in FLL. We spend maybe 15 minutes per day on Latin, 4 days/week.

ETA: I just saw that ChrisB did already mention Killgallon. Sorry, was reading on my phone and missed that.

Oh thank you so much for the link from SWB! We are in FLL3 right now, and I get frustrated that he sometimes doesn't remember the dictation after reading it to him three times. Gosh, I need to lighten up on him! I was wondering about this, but her comments in FLL3 made me think he should absolutely be able to repeat everything after hearing it 3 times. Now I feel like he's even doing much better than I thought, and I already felt like he was doing very well with the program. Anyway, thanks for that! And also the tips on Latin, etc. Very helpful.